Things That are Racist

[Turkish]

Just now, aintforever said:

Brilliant!

So a non-football fan accidentally started watching football game and got so angry at something one of the players did they decided to abuse them on twitter.

Where is your current evidence they are football fans?

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Nothing. That's my point. Unless there is certified video evidence of somebody saying racist stuff and then confirming they are a football fan then we should put all our efforts into condemning a fellow poster on Saintsweb rather than the racism itself. Its not even like football even has a racism problem. Eh?    

Great, glad we agree there isnt any evidence and that the two incidents to tried to link are completely unrelated. Well done Timmy.

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Great, glad we agree there isnt any evidence and that the two incidents to tried to link are completely unrelated. Well done Timmy.

No worries Dicky 

[Lighthouse]

36 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Nothing. That's my point. Unless there is certified video evidence of somebody saying racist stuff and then confirming they are a football fan then we should put all our efforts into condemning a fellow poster on Saintsweb rather than the racism itself. Its not even like football even has a racism problem. Eh?    

Genuine question; what frequency or severity of racist abuse constitutes a ‘problem’ in your eyes and what level would it have to drop to in order to not be a problem?

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Genuine question; what frequency or severity of racist abuse constitutes a ‘problem’ in your eyes and what level would it have to drop to in order to not be a problem?

Open racism in the stands is nowhere near what it was because the tolerance is low and sanctions like life bans high. The reason it still flourishes on SM is because the chances of being caught and / or having a meaningful penalty are so low. Let’s not pretend though. If there are 1,000 cricket, rugby, Gridiron, pop or tennis fans drinking in a town before an event - which one is most likely to be chanting racist schitt?

My partner is a doctor of Pakistani  ethnicity. She’s third generation, never been to Pakistan doesn’t speak Urdu, would rather eat at Pret than eat curry, dresses as any other native born Brit and is Christian. I was born abroad but am white and blond. Which one of us is more likely to get abused or hear comments about immigrants, race or muslimes if I take her to a game?

 

Edited 24 February, 2021 by buctootim

[Lighthouse]

47 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Open racism in the stands is nowhere near what it was because the tolerance is low and sanctions like life bans high. The reason it still flourishes on SM is because the chances of being caught and / or having a meaningful penalty are so low. Let’s not pretend though. If there are 1,000 cricket, rugby, Gridiron, pop or tennis fans drinking in a town before an event - which one is most likely to be chanting racist schitt?

My partner is a doctor of Pakistani  ethnicity. She’s third generation, never been to Pakistan doesn’t speak Urdu, would rather eat at Pret than eat curry, dresses as an other native born Brit and is Christian. I was born abroad but am white. Which one of us is more likely to get abused or hear comments about race or muslimes if I take her to a game?

 

I wouldn’t disagree on that, the point I was getting at is that these are individual tweets out of a total football viewership in the millions, in this country alone. Peak viewing figures for a big game on Sky are apparently touching on four million. Supposing 40 of them sent racists tweets, or 1 in 100,000. Is that ratio unacceptable?

[buctootim]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Peak viewing figures for a big game on Sky are apparently touching on four million. Supposing 40 of them sent racists tweets, or 1 in 100,000. Is that ratio unacceptable?

I'm not sure what the point is or what that is relevant to. What ratio of tweets threatening old people for stinking of piss, being slow and sponging their pensions is acceptable?  how about disabled - 'should've killed you at birth you useless parasite, sack of'.   Is it alright if they get one a week but not one everyday. Not sure. What do you think?    

Edited 24 February, 2021 by buctootim

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I'm not sure what the point is or what that is relevant to. What ratio of tweets threatening old people for stinking of piss, being slow and sponging their pensions is acceptable?  how about disabled - 'should've killed you at birth you useless parasite, sack of'.   Is it alright if they get one a week but not one everyday. Not sure. What do you think?    

You’re confusing the issue of whether a particular crime is right with whether group X has a problem with Y.

 

For example, if I murder my wife and so do 50,000 other people this year, then the UK clearly has a problem with murder. If however that happened to be the only murder committed in the country all year, then clearly we as a country don’t have a problem with murder. In either case, the crime I have committed is equally bad. There is no attempt to excuse the actually act of murder, just questioning the rate at which it is committed.

[ChrisPY]

57 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I'm not sure what the point is or what that is relevant to. What ratio of tweets threatening old people for stinking of piss, being slow and sponging their pensions is acceptable?  how about disabled - 'should've killed you at birth you useless parasite, sack of'.   Is it alright if they get one a week but not one everyday. Not sure. What do you think?    

I guess the issue is when does it become ‘some racists follow football’ compared to ‘football is followed by racists’.

Is it an issue specific to football or is it that ‘football’ is doing all that it reasonably can be done to prevent incidents of racism but there will always be racism, there will always be people that think the old stink of piss, there will always be people that think the disabled are useless.

There is only so much that society can do in criminalising and objecting to these people and their views but it is near impossible to eradicate. Murder, rape and child abuse have been seen as unacceptable for far longer but our prisons are still full of those who have committed these crimes.

That’s not to say we don’t need to continue to show how abhorrent we find these crimes and prevent them where possible but a complete eradication is unrealistic.

Football fans aren’t seen as murderers but I am certain some murderers are football fans.

[buctootim]

46 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’re confusing the issue of whether a particular crime is right with whether group X has a problem with Y.

 

For example, if I murder my wife and so do 50,000 other people this year, then the UK clearly has a problem with murder. If however that happened to be the only murder committed in the country all year, then clearly we as a country don’t have a problem with murder. In either case, the crime I have committed is equally bad. There is no attempt to excuse the actually act of murder, just questioning the rate at which it is committed.

The underlying problem is social media of which racist posts are just part. As one of the club managers said  - it you post a tweet breaching copyright its taken down within 15 minutes if you post something racist, aggressive, threatening etc it can be up for days. 

I'm sure some of the people posting racist stuff to footballers aren't football fans. Some probably aren't even racist, they just want the thrill and attention. However football does have a particular problem with race based hate, just as pop does with hating on women for the way they look or the Daily Mail and Express do with Meghan Markle. 

   

[buctootim]

3 minutes ago, ChrisPY said:

I guess the issue is when does it become ‘some racists follow football’ compared to ‘football is followed by racists’.

Is it an issue specific to football or is it that ‘football’ is doing all that it reasonably can be done to prevent incidents of racism but there will always be racism, there will always be people that think the old stink of piss, there will always be people that think the disabled are useless.

There is only so much that society can do in criminalising and objecting to these people and their views but it is near impossible to eradicate. Murder, rape and child abuse have been seen as unacceptable for far longer but our prisons are still full of those who have committed these crimes.

That’s not to say we don’t need to continue to show how abhorrent we find these crimes and prevent them where possible but a complete eradication is unrealistic.

Football fans aren’t seen as murderers but I am certain some murderers are football fans.

Yep I do accept that. And there is a danger of the remedy becoming worse than the problem.  As I said in my previous post there is a wider issue with social media related not just to racism but to truth and hate of all kinds. I dont know what the solution is.    

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, buctootim said:

Open racism in the stands is nowhere near what it was because the tolerance is low and sanctions like life bans high. The reason it still flourishes on SM is because the chances of being caught and / or having a meaningful penalty are so low. Let’s not pretend though. If there are 1,000 cricket, rugby, Gridiron, pop or tennis fans drinking in a town before an event - which one is most likely to be chanting racist schitt?

My partner is a doctor of Pakistani  ethnicity. She’s third generation, never been to Pakistan doesn’t speak Urdu, would rather eat at Pret than eat curry, dresses as any other native born Brit and is Christian. I was born abroad but am white and blond. Which one of us is more likely to get abused or hear comments about immigrants, race or muslimes if I take her to a game?

 

Isn't it more accurate to say that social media is more of a problem when it comes to racism than football - given your statement regarding incidents and tolerance at football being low?

Granted, football is the catalyst in this instance, however, SM is the conduit that allows the racism to flourish.

Edit : just seen your later post with the same conclusion  

Edited 24 February, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[Manuel]

I used to post in the Independent when the comments section was completely unmoderated.  Tonnes of racism, misogyny, anti-whatever.  I suspect it attracted people who were silenced by society because it was one of the few newspapers you could spout stuff anonymously.  You can on Youtube currently.  I came to the conclusion that it wasn't a fair reflection of society as a whole, rather a minority who flock en mass to an outlet for pent up aggression wherever they can find it.  

[Manuel]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

 

 

Edited 24 February, 2021 by Manuel
duplicate

[AlexLaw76]

Lets play a game called 'The Wheel of Racism'.

Contestants must 'spin the wheel' to see what is now racist...Here goes;

*SPINS WHEEL*

Coca Cola employees

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/coca-cola-racism-robin-diangelo-coke-b1806122.html

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Manuel said:

I used to post in the Independent when the comments section was completely unmoderated.  Tonnes of racism, misogyny, anti-whatever.  I suspect it attracted people who were silenced by society because it was one of the few newspapers you could spout stuff anonymously.  You can on Youtube currently.  I came to the conclusion that it wasn't a fair reflection of society as a whole, rather a minority who flock en mass to an outlet for pent up aggression wherever they can find it.  

Listen or watch Adam Buxton’s Bug for good take on nature of YouTube comments.

[hypochondriac]

18 hours ago, buctootim said:

Nothing. That's my point. Unless there is certified video evidence of somebody saying racist stuff and then confirming they are a football fan then we should put all our efforts into condemning a fellow poster on Saintsweb rather than the racism itself. Its not even like football even has a racism problem. Eh?    

Due to the moral panic, abuse on social media is widely publicised every single time there is any abuse of a black footballer on social media, even if the person doing it is a 14 year old spotty kid. That doesn't make it a racism problem any more than wider society. What it means is that everyone posts online and some people say disgusting stuff on social media. If once we get back into stadia we have hoardes of football fans chanting racist abuse at the likes of Rashford then I'll agree with you. That won't happen though because there's not a greater racism problem in UK football than society at large. 

[hypochondriac]

15 hours ago, buctootim said:

The underlying problem is social media of which racist posts are just part. As one of the club managers said  - it you post a tweet breaching copyright its taken down within 15 minutes if you post something racist, aggressive, threatening etc it can be up for days. 

I'm sure some of the people posting racist stuff to footballers aren't football fans. Some probably aren't even racist, they just want the thrill and attention. However football does have a particular problem with race based hate, just as pop does with hating on women for the way they look or the Daily Mail and Express do with Meghan Markle. 

   

If the argument is that racism needs removing quicker on social media then I can sign up to that campaign. That's not what's being asked for though. Any proposed solution to social media is completely unworkable, I'm yet to see a sensible solution. 

[Turkish]

44 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Due to the moral panic, abuse on social media is widely publicised every single time there is any abuse of a black footballer on social media, even if the person doing it is a 14 year old spotty kid. That doesn't make it a racism problem any more than wider society. What it means is that everyone posts online and some people say disgusting stuff on social media. If once we get back into stadia we have hoardes of football fans chanting racist abuse at the likes of Rashford then I'll agree with you. That won't happen though because there's not a greater racism problem in UK football than society at large. 

Arrests in ground equal something like 1 for every 1 million person that attends matches. Yet with every incident making headline news with usual tutting and shaking as heads with enough is enough comments from the likes of Gary Linekar, even when in a number of occasions nothing has actually happened and the charges get dropped. You'd think that every match has thousands of fans throwing bananas on the pitch and making monkey noises at every black player for the full 90 minutes. A racist person at football does not mean football is racist. 

[skintsaint]

https://www.alleghenyfront.org/reckoning-with-the-racist-past-of-bird-names/

Bird names.

[whelk]

Horrible cunts in Woolston

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19119295.university-lecturer-attacked-whilst-jogging-southampton/

[bpsaint]

Apparently it’s racist to not want Shamima Begum back in the country.

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, whelk said:

Horrible cunts in Woolston

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19119295.university-lecturer-attacked-whilst-jogging-southampton/

Let’s not jump to any conclusions that it was a racist attack, it might just be a car full of people with mental problems. 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Let’s not jump to any conclusions that it was a racist attack, it might just be a car full of people with mental problems. 

Your mates maybe disillusioned that the white working class male is being sidelined from opportunities?

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Your mates maybe disillusioned that the white working class male is being sidelined from opportunities?

Any evidence they were white? Let’s not jump to conclusions. 

[whelk]

42 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Any evidence they were white? Let’s not jump to conclusions. 

Maybe Antifa wanting to discredit Trump.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Maybe Antifa wanting to discredit Trump.

Who knows. All I know is after years of being told not to jump to conclusions when certain events happen I’ve learnt to apply that logic to every event. It what some might call educating yourself. Far to easy and lazy to assume a specific act was committed by a certain section of society. 

[whelk]

8 hours ago, Turkish said:

Who knows. All I know is after years of being told not to jump to conclusions when certain events happen I’ve learnt to apply that logic to every event. It what some might call educating yourself. Far to easy and lazy to assume a specific act was committed by a certain section of society. 

You’d perform very badly in a number of jobs with that approach. Limbic part of brain gives us great advantages on processing quickly and using intuition to make good decisions, Shame that it appears to have passed you by..

[Weston Super Saint]

18 minutes ago, whelk said:

You’d perform very badly in a number of jobs with that approach. Limbic part of brain gives us great advantages on processing quickly and using intuition to make good decisions, Shame that it appears to have passed you by..

To be fair, Turkish hasn't said he no longer has the ability to process information and act intuitively when the situation dictates, he's just stated that through self development he has learnt to apply logic and restraint instead of jumping to conclusions without considering all of the available information.

Shame this self development phase seems to have passed you by  

[whelk]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

To be fair, Turkish hasn't said he no longer has the ability to process information and act intuitively when the situation dictates, he's just stated that through self development he has learnt to apply logic and restraint instead of jumping to conclusions without considering all of the available information.

Shame this self development phase seems to have passed you by  

Weston and Turkish as police partners. “Sorry boss we still have no leads”Maybe get MLG to join you then you’d be a real logical task force

hey there’s some tigers coming at us. Hang on just looking up how fast they run be with you in a tick

Edited 27 February, 2021 by whelk

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Weston and Turkish as police partners. “Sorry boss we still have no leads”Maybe get MLG to join you then you’d be a real logical task force

hey there’s some tigers coming at us. Hang on just looking up how fast they run be with you in a tick

Whelk as a firearms copper. 
 

“i had the shot so I took it, he was Asian and carrying a backpack, I assumed he was a suicide bomber and an immediate threat”

he was a 19 year old medical student going for a pick nick on his lunch break. 
 

Jumping to conclusions is dangerous 

[Turkish]

37 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

To be fair, Turkish hasn't said he no longer has the ability to process information and act intuitively when the situation dictates, he's just stated that through self development he has learnt to apply logic and restraint instead of jumping to conclusions without considering all of the available information.

Shame this self development phase seems to have passed you by  

It’s funny how they can show restraint not jumping to conclusions when it comes to crimes committed by non whites. 

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Whelk as a firearms copper. 
 

“i had the shot so I took it, he was Asian and carrying a backpack, I assumed he was a suicide bomber and an immediate threat”

he was a 19 year old medical student going for a pick nick on his lunch break. 
 

Jumping to conclusions is dangerous 

😀

“Guv I think we need to look for people who don’t like joggers. I’m all over the database but as yet nothing in Woolston. Any chance I can work late on overtime to crack it?”

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It’s funny how they can show restraint not jumping to conclusions when it comes to crimes committed by non whites. 

‘They’ being your bogey man lefty that triggers you?

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, whelk said:

😀

“Guv I think we need to look for people who don’t like joggers. I’m all over the database but as yet nothing in Woolston. Any chance I can work late on overtime to crack it?”

What about people who don't like university lecturers, or are they intuitively discounted?

[Turkish]

Just now, whelk said:

‘They’ being your bogey man lefty that triggers you?

They being the intolerant ones in our society who are hasty the judge. 

[whelk]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

What about people who don't like university lecturers, or are they intuitively discounted?

Fair point and where I’d start.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

They being the intolerant ones in our society who are hasty the judge. 

You just said they weren’t hasty to judge non-white criminals so doesn’t seem to be a tolerance thing

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Fair point and where I’d start.

Doubt it, you'd still be looking at the exhibits in the zoo...

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

😀

“Guv I think we need to look for people who don’t like joggers. I’m all over the database but as yet nothing in Woolston. Any chance I can work late on overtime to crack it?”

That’s one lead, it’s possible the allegations may be false. Why is there an assumption it was race related, maybe there is a back story to this we are not aware of.  It’s lazy and easy to assume it was race related simply because the victim wasn’t white.

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, Turkish said:

That’s one lead, it’s possible the allegations may be false. Why is there an assumption it was race related, maybe there is a back story to this we are not aware of.  It’s lazy and easy to assume it was race related simply because the victim wasn’t white.

To be fair, amongst the click bait in the echo article, the victim claims they shouted racist abuse before the attack...

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

You just said they weren’t hasty to judge non-white criminals so doesn’t seem to be a tolerance thing

Quick to judge certain crimes with an outpouring of moral indignation. Whilst turning a blind eye or playing down crimes committed by others.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

To be fair, amongst the click bait in the echo article, the victim claims they shouted racist abuse before the attack...

“Claims”  it may well have been racially motivated but that may not be the only reason, yet it seems that it’s been decided already 

Edited 27 February, 2021 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

“Claims” 

Yep, hence why the police are investigating rather than intuitively concluding that to be the entire story.

Edited 27 February, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

That’s one lead, it’s possible the allegations may be false. Why is there an assumption it was race related, maybe there is a back story to this we are not aware of.  It’s lazy and easy to assume it was race related simply because the victim wasn’t white.

3rd paragraph https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19122668.mp-councillor-react-racist-attack-southampton/

 

[whelk]

Just now, whelk said:

3rd paragraph https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19122668.mp-councillor-react-racist-attack-southampton/

 

 

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

“Claims”  it may well have been racially motivated but there may not be the only reason, yet it seems that’s been decided already 

Making yourself look stupid now, maybe the lecturer has a political agenda eh?

 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

3rd paragraph https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19122668.mp-councillor-react-racist-attack-southampton/

 

Last paragraph “continuing to investigate” no conviction yet. Let’s wait and see.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

 

Making yourself look stupid now, maybe the lecturer has a political agenda eh?

 

Has anyone been convicted yet?

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

“Claims”  it may well have been racially motivated but that may not be the only reason, yet it seems that it’s been decided already 

Most people react on information they receive a left right to be sceptical of some sources. You however want to dismiss as exploring the far more to be discovered. almost like you have an interest in promoting one side 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

3rd paragraph https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/19122668.mp-councillor-react-racist-attack-southampton/

 

Excellent news.

The police have carried out an investigation and concluded it was a racist attack.

Not only that, they arrested and charged someone.

Good job well done and I for one am glad the police have taken a racist scum bag off the streets and not jumped to any conclusions.