Things That are Racist

[austsaint]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I think his point is that you can't describe a black person as a black person, but reference to another physical characteristic is OK (like he's bald, or fat, or short, that sort of stuff). I think he's possibly trying to say, but won't commit, that its OK to describe a white person as a white person. 

I'll leave you, Turkish and Hypo et al to tie yourself up in knots.    Happy Xmas, hope you find some joy.

[egg]

Just now, austsaint said:

I'll leave you, Turkish and Hypo et al to tie yourself up in knots.    Happy Xmas, hope you find some joy.

That's genuinely a very sad response. This is an important subject. We live in a world where people are judged on non existent rules after the event. You clearly have an opinion, and some clarity of your stance would have been appreciated.

If identifying someone by physical characteristics is OK, I genuinely want to understand why reference to black skin is not OK, but that reference to white skin is OK, and why reference to (in my opinion) physical characteristics that are genuinely insulting to highlight (ie bald, fat, short etc) is OK.

There's an inconsistency that has the word racism attached to it. 

[SKD]

41 minutes ago, austsaint said:

I'll leave you, Turkish and Hypo et al to tie yourself up in knots.    Happy Xmas, hope you find some joy.

Nope, you’ve tied yourself in a knot. So quick to demonstrate your outrage that you’ve massively contradicted yourself, now you’re refusing to answer / becoming offensive as your on the back foot. 
 

what happened last night (and at Millwall on Saturday) is in no way racist or even offensive. Idiots like you actually water down the serious issue of racism and reactions like this, is why it’s not taken seriously enough when actual racism occurs. 
 

generally speaking, the majority of the general public in this country are sick of left wing bullshit, hence the 80 seat majority for arguably the 2nd most Shambolic (corbyn’s labour being the first) cabinet in our history. 

[Saint Billy]

Can you imagine the fallout if a player decided enough is enough and stopped taking the knee.

Imo peer pressure is now coming into play as far as the players are concerned, along with a fear by the establishment that stopping taking the knee could be deemed as racist in itself. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I think referring to him as the black guy comes across as perhaps a little disrespectful and he probably could have chosen better words, but racist, really?

Watching the footage, I got the impression Demba Ba was getting angry for the sake of being angry and looking for offence where none was intended. 

Real genuine racism will never be defeated while we are obsessed with demonising people for things like this.

Why is it disrespectful to describe him as a black man?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

People have been very quick to jump in with their views on this one but this footage suggested he called him a negro, not just a black guy

Even if you take the quote that Reuters reported, it's racist if you all me:

“The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that."

Edited 9 December, 2020 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Turkish]

51 minutes ago, SKD said:

Nope, you’ve tied yourself in a knot. So quick to demonstrate your outrage that you’ve massively contradicted yourself, now you’re refusing to answer / becoming offensive as your on the back foot. 
 

what happened last night (and at Millwall on Saturday) is in no way racist or even offensive. Idiots like you actually water down the serious issue of racism and reactions like this, is why it’s not taken seriously enough when actual racism occurs. 
 

generally speaking, the majority of the general public in this country are sick of left wing bullshit, hence the 80 seat majority for arguably the 2nd most Shambolic (corbyn’s labour being the first) cabinet in our history. 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

People have been very quick to junk in on this one but this footage suggested he called him a negro, not just a black guy

Even if you take the quote that Reuters reported, it's racist if you all me:

“The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that."

You do know not everyone in the world speaks in English? Negro means black in many languages. Una taza de café negro means a cup of black coffee in Spanish for example. SO we are now going to demonise people for the language they speak because it might upset the English speakers?

Edited 9 December, 2020 by Turkish

[sydney_saint]

10 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

This whole issue is in danger of turning into Brexit - two teams, the battle lines drawn, neither willing to give an inch, both determined to seize upon any tiniest crumb of righteousness to score points. The net result is a total stalemate, with little to no progress ever being made.

 

I know people will say people of colour deserve equality so why should they concede anything but this is a negotiation whether you like it or not. It’s going to take time, patience and an acceptance that not everything will go your way. I was involved in a union dispute once where conditions at the company I worked for where nowhere near those of the industry leaders. We were every bit as well trained, professional, experienced and hard working but did we go straight in demanding everything our competitors employees had? No, like heck we did. We went in hard with the most pressing issue at the time (being employed full time on zero hours contracts if anyone cares) and accepted we weren’t going to get free coffee and biscuits.

 

You’ve got to ask yourself if these are the hills we really want to die fighting over. People booing a gesture, for dubious and debatable reasons? A Romanian (who’s outlook on diversity is probably centred more on Tartars and Romani gypsies than PoC) calling a black man a black man?

 

We should be focussing on issues such as the racist chanting in Montenegro last year and the pathetic punishment UEFA handed out, instead we’re having a contest to see who can be the most outraged over Fawlty Towers and Bo Selecta.

I think there is quite a difference between Brexit and race. With Brexit, the debate is/was around how the UK positions itself in the world both economically and culturally. There is no ‘right’ way to do this and therefore easier to become entrenched. Here though we are talking about the right of people to live their lives without discrimination, either individually or systematically, simply due to the colour of their skin. There is no justification for this and they are not morally equivalent positions.

Over the last couple of years I have worked with many members of the BME community in and around Bristol. And listened to many stories. Some of them smaller. And some of them absolutely heartbreaking. I truly believe that every single person who would spend some time going through the communities and hearing many of the stories will come out a more informed person no matter who they are. I certainly have. In fact, there have been experiments on this showing how people’s opinions change when they are forced to sit down and have a dialogue.

Of course the BME communities do not speak with one homogenous voice as the lived experiences varies from individual to individual, to family to family. Yet there are some common narratives. One that is strong is frustration at what you said about the bigger issues. There is a feeling that there is such strong opposition to even the small things that the debate can’t get to the things that they want to talk about. How can it be expected for people to engage on some of the systematic issues when so many dig their heels in, get their back up over such minor things? You can even see comments in this thread to back that up.  I’m sure there will be many that will oppose even what I am saying in this post. It often feels like opposition at every single little move.

It’s also worth noting that many of the minor things are not been brought up by BLM or BME members, like cancelling Fawlty Towers episode or Peep show etc. A few twats on twitter don’t represent a movement, yet there has been such disproportionate weight given to them. Every argument has twats, and I encourage people to treat them like twats, just like how they would like the twats on their side to be treated. People want to focus on the bigger issues, but are struggling to even get the conversation close to it.

Just quickly on the knee itself, I haven’t had much opportunity to speak to people about this. If I were to guess though, one narrative I have heard is frustration about been told what to do. What slogan they should use, what dialogue they should have, what mechanisms they should use to create change. My guess, and it is purely a guess based on those conversations, is that a few will be questioning the impact of the knee (I spoke to someone a month back who did), but the decision to remove it should be an empowered one, rather than been forced to remove it by booing fans.

I think it is also worth pointing out, because it does gets lost, that with my dialogue with members of BLM and/or BME community that there is strong recognition for other discrimination and calls for action on it. There is discrimination around class, disabilities, gender, sexuality etc. All causes that BLM and other similar organisations have supported.

I’m probably not going to respond to messages to this as I genuinely find it has a poor impact on my mental health and I have quite strong anxiety, especially as I’m sure some will attack this post. And I wasn’t going to post this, cos it is making me anxious already, but I felt it important to try and relay some of the conversations that I have had.  I would say though that maybe for some people it would be great to go out and have these conversations yourself, or read primary first hand experiences without any media (either left or right) filtering the information. If that leaves you in the same position you are now then that is fair. But it may also show things that maybe aren’t so visible at the moment.

One little tip that might help dialogue as this thread keeps going. Is if the words you are saying, and the tone that is been used, would you use it to someone face to face in the pub? Or would you use kinder and softer language? IF the answer is no you would use different language, then it is probably worth using. I can be guilty of this as well, but I do find it a helpful  technique.  

Edited 9 December, 2020 by sydney_saint

[egg]

23 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

I think there is quite a difference between Brexit and race. With Brexit, the debate is/was around how the UK positions itself in the world both economically and culturally. There is no ‘right’ way to do this and therefore easier to become entrenched. Here though we are talking about the right of people to live their lives without discrimination, either individually or systematically, simply due to the colour of their skin. There is no justification for this and they are not morally equivalent positions.

Over the last couple of years I have worked with many members of the BME community in and around Bristol. And listened to many stories. Some of them smaller. And some of them absolutely heartbreaking. I truly believe that every single person who would spend some time going through the communities and hearing many of the stories will come out a more informed person no matter who they are. I certainly have. In fact, there have been experiments on this showing how people’s opinions change when they are forced to sit down and have a dialogue.

Of course the BME communities do not speak with one homogenous voice as the lived experiences varies from individual to individual, to family to family. Yet there are some common narratives. One that is strong is frustration at what you said about the bigger issues. There is a feeling that there is such strong opposition to even the small things that the debate can’t get to the things that they want to talk about. How can it be expected for people to engage on some of the systematic issues when so many dig their heels in, get their back up over such minor things? You can even see comments in this thread to back that up.  I’m sure there will be many that will oppose even what I am saying in this post. It often feels like opposition at every single little move.

It’s also worth noting that many of the minor things are not been brought up by BLM or BME members, like cancelling Fawlty Towers episode or Peep show etc. A few twats on twitter don’t represent a movement, yet there has been such disproportionate weight given to them. Every argument has twats, and I encourage people to treat them like twats, just like how they would like the twats on their side to be treated. People want to focus on the bigger issues, but are struggling to even get the conversation close to it.

Just quickly on the knee itself, I haven’t had much opportunity to speak to people about this. If I were to guess though, one narrative I have heard is frustration about been told what to do. What slogan they should use, what dialogue they should have, what mechanisms they should use to create change. My guess, and it is purely a guess based on those conversations, is that a few will be questioning the impact of the knee (I spoke to someone a month back who did), but the decision to remove it should be an empowered one, rather than been forced to remove it by booing fans.

I think it is also worth pointing out, because it does gets lost, that with my dialogue with members of BLM and/or BME community that there is strong recognition for other discrimination and calls for action on it. There is discrimination around class, disabilities, gender, sexuality etc. All causes that BLM and other similar organisations have supported.

I’m probably not going to respond to messages to this as I genuinely find it has a poor impact on my mental health and I have quite strong anxiety, especially as I’m sure some will attack this post. And I wasn’t going to post this, cos it is making me anxious already, but I felt it important to try and relay some of the conversations that I have had.  I would say though that maybe for some people it would be great to go out and have these conversations yourself, or read primary first hand experiences without any media (either left or right) filtering the information. If that leaves you in the same position you are now then that is fair. But it may also show things that maybe aren’t so visible at the moment.

One little tip that might help dialogue as this thread keeps going. Is if the words you are saying, and the tone that is been used, would you use it to someone face to face in the pub? Or would you use kinder and softer language? IF the answer is no you would use different language, then it is probably worth using. I can be guilty of this as well, but I do find it a helpful  technique.  

Thanks Sydney. That's a very balanced and sensible post. We see things differently to some extent, but I appreciate why you don't want an exchange. Good luck with your stuff. 

[SKD]

39 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

People have been very quick to jump in with their views on this one but this footage suggested he called him a negro, not just a black guy

Even if you take the quote that Reuters reported, it's racist if you all me:

“The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that."

First of all, negru is black in Romanian. The officials native language. Do you suggest everyone should be forced to speak English? That’s all A bit racist, really. 
 

secondly, the comment ‘go and check who he is.’ Would suggest he doesn’t know his name. Being black, is an identifiable characteristic of a POC if you’re surrounded by non black people. It’s not offensive, it’s not judgemental, it’s not degrading, it’s a fact.  
 

perhaps we should all start wearing name badges.. but I suppose that’s what you communists want. 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, austsaint said:

I really don't think your "effort" warrants a reply.  Wtf.

Wow. White privilege in action folks. 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I think referring to him as the black guy comes across as perhaps a little disrespectful and he probably could have chosen better words, but racist, really?

Watching the footage, I got the impression Demba Ba was getting angry for the sake of being angry and looking for offence where none was intended. 

Real genuine racism will never be defeated while we are obsessed with demonising people for things like this.

1000 times this. In hindsight the bloke could have said something else but with a tiny bit of common sense it's clear that no offence was intended and as you say making a song and dance out of something like this does more harm than good. 

[SKD]

This has all been massively blown out of proportion by the usual white virtual signallers in the media. Perhaps it’s because they didn’t get the reaction the wanted from the filthy racist Millwall scum, who got behind a anti-discrimination campaign that isn’t left wing politically motivated (who’d have thought it). 
 

Not much being said on the QPR players who decided to try and antagonise the home crowd by taking a knee (a sensitive subject and which is why they referred to Kick it out and didn’t take the knee pre-match) when they scored though, is there.

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

1000 times this. In hindsight the bloke could have said something else but with a tiny bit of common sense it's clear that no offence was intended and as you say making a song and dance out of something like this does more harm than good. 

Im really still not sure why it was disrespectful though. 

[hypochondriac]

38 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

I think there is quite a difference between Brexit and race. With Brexit, the debate is/was around how the UK positions itself in the world both economically and culturally. There is no ‘right’ way to do this and therefore easier to become entrenched. Here though we are talking about the right of people to live their lives without discrimination, either individually or systematically, simply due to the colour of their skin. There is no justification for this and they are not morally equivalent positions.

Over the last couple of years I have worked with many members of the BME community in and around Bristol. And listened to many stories. Some of them smaller. And some of them absolutely heartbreaking. I truly believe that every single person who would spend some time going through the communities and hearing many of the stories will come out a more informed person no matter who they are. I certainly have. In fact, there have been experiments on this showing how people’s opinions change when they are forced to sit down and have a dialogue.

Of course the BME communities do not speak with one homogenous voice as the lived experiences varies from individual to individual, to family to family. Yet there are some common narratives. One that is strong is frustration at what you said about the bigger issues. There is a feeling that there is such strong opposition to even the small things that the debate can’t get to the things that they want to talk about. How can it be expected for people to engage on some of the systematic issues when so many dig their heels in, get their back up over such minor things? You can even see comments in this thread to back that up.  I’m sure there will be many that will oppose even what I am saying in this post. It often feels like opposition at every single little move.

It’s also worth noting that many of the minor things are not been brought up by BLM or BME members, like cancelling Fawlty Towers episode or Peep show etc. A few twats on twitter don’t represent a movement, yet there has been such disproportionate weight given to them. Every argument has twats, and I encourage people to treat them like twats, just like how they would like the twats on their side to be treated. People want to focus on the bigger issues, but are struggling to even get the conversation close to it.

Just quickly on the knee itself, I haven’t had much opportunity to speak to people about this. If I were to guess though, one narrative I have heard is frustration about been told what to do. What slogan they should use, what dialogue they should have, what mechanisms they should use to create change. My guess, and it is purely a guess based on those conversations, is that a few will be questioning the impact of the knee (I spoke to someone a month back who did), but the decision to remove it should be an empowered one, rather than been forced to remove it by booing fans.

I think it is also worth pointing out, because it does gets lost, that with my dialogue with members of BLM and/or BME community that there is strong recognition for other discrimination and calls for action on it. There is discrimination around class, disabilities, gender, sexuality etc. All causes that BLM and other similar organisations have supported.

I’m probably not going to respond to messages to this as I genuinely find it has a poor impact on my mental health and I have quite strong anxiety, especially as I’m sure some will attack this post. And I wasn’t going to post this, cos it is making me anxious already, but I felt it important to try and relay some of the conversations that I have had.  I would say though that maybe for some people it would be great to go out and have these conversations yourself, or read primary first hand experiences without any media (either left or right) filtering the information. If that leaves you in the same position you are now then that is fair. But it may also show things that maybe aren’t so visible at the moment.

One little tip that might help dialogue as this thread keeps going. Is if the words you are saying, and the tone that is been used, would you use it to someone face to face in the pub? Or would you use kinder and softer language? IF the answer is no you would use different language, then it is probably worth using. I can be guilty of this as well, but I do find it a helpful  technique.  

I disagree with most of what you've said here but i appreciate the civility you have used to express yourself and the general tone of your post. I won't respond in detail as you've said you don't want to have arguments. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Turkish said:

Im really still not sure why it was disrespectful though. 

"the black one" could be seen as derogatory in certain contexts. 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, SKD said:

This has all been massively blown out of proportion by the usual white virtual signallers in the media. Perhaps it’s because they didn’t get the reaction the wanted from the filthy racist Millwall scum, who got behind a anti-discrimination campaign that isn’t left wing politically motivated (who’d have thought it). 
 

Not much being said on the QPR players who decided to try and antagonise the home crowd by taking a knee (a sensitive subject and which is why they referred to Kick it out and didn’t take the knee pre-match) when they scored though, is there.

I find it odd that not a single person on here who were calling Millwall fans thick and racist have tried to explain why there was no booing at the anti racist activities yesterday but there was at the taking of the knee. It's been completely ignored. 

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"the black one" could be seen as derogatory in certain contexts. 

i suppose taken for an English speaking person, taking those words in isolation and looking for a reason to be offended it could be, but put into context with the rest of the sentence

"The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that."

It was obvious he didn't know who he was and obvious it wasn't meant as derogatory or to offend. Still the media have decided it's racist. 

 

[Alanh]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I find it odd that not a single person on here who were calling Millwall fans thick and racist have tried to explain why there was no booing at the anti racist activities yesterday but there was at the taking of the knee. It's been completely ignored. 

I didn't call them thick or racist, but perhaps the Millwall fans who booed thought they had made their point, perhaps they were wary of being identified and banned, perhaps they responded positively to the letter they received on entering the ground, perhaps the ones who booed got shut up by their mates, perhaps they were happy with linked arms rather than kneeling.  Perhaps all of these things or something else.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

i suppose taken for an English speaking person, taking those words in isolation and looking for a reason to be offended it could be, but put into context with the rest of the sentence

"The black one over there. Go and check who he is. The black one over there, it’s not possible to act like that."

It was obvious he didn't know who he was and obvious it wasn't meant as derogatory or to offend. Still the media have decided it's racist. 

 

Don't worry I agree with you that it's ridiculous, I'm just trying to see it from the other point of view. Clearly the bloke was miffed at being sent off so responded to the red card with a card of his own. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Alanh said:

I didn't call them thick or racist, but perhaps the Millwall fans who booed thought they had made their point, perhaps they were wary of being identified and banned, perhaps they responded positively to the letter they received on entering the ground, perhaps the ones who booed got shut up by their mates, perhaps they were happy with linked arms rather than kneeling.  Perhaps all of these things or something else.

Or perhaps they were booing the taking of the knee which they viewed as supporting the organisation (as the supporters group pointed out) and didn't actually have an issue with something anti racist like kick it out? Is there any other recent examples of Millwall fans reacting negatively to an anti racist initiative that isn't linked to black lives matter? Because I know what I think is the most likely scenario. 

[egg]

18 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"the black one" could be seen as derogatory in certain contexts. 

 

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Don't worry I agree with you that it's ridiculous, I'm just trying to see it from the other point of view. Clearly the bloke was miffed at being sent off so responded to the red card with a card of his own. 

They key word there Hypo is context. There was one black guy in the group and Identifying him by his colour was no more offensive than saying "the white one" had he been the only white guy in the group. 

[Lighthouse]

33 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"the black one" could be seen as derogatory in certain contexts. 

My personal experience with working with and occasionally dating some Eastern Europeans is that they tend to be very direct and to the point with their language. I’m trying to think of a better example but a girl might say, "I don’t like that you are a bald one but you have nice eyes so it’s okay for me." There just isn’t the same polite social filter that we have.

[Fan The Flames]

14 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

My personal experience with working with and occasionally dating some Eastern Europeans is that they tend to be very direct and to the point with their language. I’m trying to think of a better example but a girl might say, "I don’t like that you are a bald one but you have nice eyes so it’s okay for me." There just isn’t the same polite social filter that we have.

She was lookihg at your groin and eyes at the same time, impressive.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, SKD said:

This has all been massively blown out of proportion by the usual white virtual signallers in the media. Perhaps it’s because they didn’t get the reaction the wanted from the filthy racist Millwall scum, who got behind a anti-discrimination campaign that isn’t left wing politically motivated (who’d have thought it). 
 

Not much being said on the QPR players who decided to try and antagonise the home crowd by taking a knee (a sensitive subject and which is why they referred to Kick it out and didn’t take the knee pre-match) when they scored though, is there.

Haven't you massively blown out of proportion the QPR goal celebration.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Haven't you massively blown out of proportion the QPR goal celebration.

He has not. The celebration was inflammatory and unnecessary. QPR made a collective point pre match by saying they'll be taking the knee and then doing it. There was no need for two of their players to then take the knee in front of the Millwall fans. Had the fans booed them, I suspect it's they who would have been criticised which kind of highlights how ridiculous and unbalanced this has become. 

[whelk]

If Saintsweb did profiling algorithms I think I know who would be receiving the EDL adverts and who would be being asked to contribute to build a well in Africa.

Although is so much nonsense and I am split on issue as genuinely feel I see both sides. Fanatics trying to uncover racists at every turn when people are just confused is mental. Worrying the standards of perfection they have when they have such intolerance and desperate to get wound up. As Obama put it recently protest and change isn’t something you do sitting at a keyboard.
Although others seem to refuse to accept there are any valid concerns with prejudice anywhere as no empathy and have such narrow viewpoint. How can a rich black football say there is any inequality types who then complain they are being called thick.

I expect Saintsweb is 95%  white male 40 to 70yo with many not touching opinions from different demographics
 

 

 

[Saint86]

For me, BLM has no place in football. But it is also the responsibility of the game's governing bodies to sort that out and to end the black power salutes that are associated with it. Certainly parts of the BLM organisation exist and thrive by causing division, but it is sadly the people it claims to represent that ultimately suffer the inevitable push backs.

I'd echo Karl Henry on the subject, it needs an apolitical movement to tackle racial equality - and i think if you removed BLM from the equation then you reduce the pre-match debate to whether its become meaningless tokenism or still worth keeping. What you can't be doing is having thousands of football fans booing a gesture that is majorly intended as nothing more than a stance against racial and social inequality.

And clearly there is zero point to football continuing to do a pre match demonstration about social equality indefinitely, whilst also changing nothing of consequence outside of that gesture.

 

[Fan The Flames]

27 minutes ago, egg said:

He has not. The celebration was inflammatory and unnecessary. QPR made a collective point pre match by saying they'll be taking the knee and then doing it. There was no need for two of their players to then take the knee in front of the Millwall fans. Had the fans booed them, I suspect it's they who would have been criticised which kind of highlights how ridiculous and unbalanced this has become. 

It's outrageous ban kneeling. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

My personal experience with working with and occasionally dating some Eastern Europeans is that they tend to be very direct and to the point with their language. I’m trying to think of a better example but a girl might say, "I don’t like that you are a bald one but you have nice eyes so it’s okay for me." There just isn’t the same polite social filter that we have.

Lay of the Baldies, our lives matter as well. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

It's outrageous ban kneeling. 

You're getting the hang of this now. 

[tajjuk]

4 hours ago, SKD said:

what happened last night (and at Millwall on Saturday) is in no way racist

Of course not, yet again people falling over themselves to excuse this behaviour is exactly why it is still a problem. 

 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Of course not, yet again people falling over themselves to excuse this behaviour is exactly why it is still a problem. 

 

Can you explain why calling a black man a black man is racist then?

[LuckyNumber7]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Why is it disrespectful to describe him as a black man?

I don't particularly think it is, just trying to understand the other point of view and maybe depending on tone of voice and how it is said it could be construed as a bit rude? "That black man over there" just sounds a bit blunt, but really I don't see a big issue with it.

Heard Trevor Sinclair on Talksport earlier saying he also didn't find it offensive or racist, although he was still pleased the players walked off to take a stand strangely.

He also said he finds the term BAME offensive which I found interesting.

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't particularly think it is, just trying to understand the other point of view and maybe depending on tone of voice and how it is said it could be construed as a bit rude? "That black man over there" just sounds a bit blunt, but really I don't see a big issue with it.

Heard Trevor Sinclair on Talksport earlier saying he also didn't find it offensive or racist, although he was still pleased the players walked off to take a stand strangely.

He also said he finds the term BAME offensive which I found interesting.

To be honest a agree with him about BAME, it's another label. Not really sure why he was pleased they walked off about something that he didn't find offensive though.

[tajjuk]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Can you explain why calling a black man a black man is racist then?

Can you be 100% sure that was exactly what was said and in that context? No you can't.

Explain why two teams walked of in protest if that is apparently all was said? You can't do that either.

You weren't there, yet despite the obvious known fact of two teams walking off in protest at what they have said is a racist incident, you as someone who was not there, 1000s of miles away can safely conclude its not racist over the internet. 

But hey you instead of believing the 20+ people there, the benefit of the doubt is never going to the victims but instantly to the perpetrator. 

Just exactly like the very obvious reason why some Millwall fans were booing a peaceful protest against racism, but they are not racist guv honest, they are anti-marxists (I mean literally the most stupid excuse going), apparently those Millwall fans are clever enough to see the intricacies of the political side of BLM, but at the same time not clever enough to recognise that taking the knee and the alleged politics of BLM are not the same thing, nor clever enough to realise how their supposed protest would be perceived, odd that.

Or of course you could just call a duck for what is is, a duck and realise that people booing an anti-racism protest that literally has no negative impact on them, are likely doing so because they are in fact racists themselves. 

Some of the responses here and how quickly people like to give the benefit of the doubt to people doing pathetic things, shows why all the like of Saville got away with it for so long, and why so many rapists get away with it. Always someone around to come quickly to their defence and give them the benefit of the doubt even though they have no real clue what they are talking about and oddly they never seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the victims in these situations.  

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

It's outrageous ban kneeling. 

Ban all political gesturing, comments, slogans on tee shirts under the football shirts  & virtue signalling from sport, just STFU and do what you are paid to do. I am so sick of it. Football used to be an escape, a release from life's pressures, its now applying more pressure to our lives. 

[Turkish]

 

18 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Can you be 100% sure that was exactly what was said and in that context? No you can't.

Explain why two teams walked of in protest if that is apparently all was said? You can't do that either.

You weren't there, yet despite the obvious known fact of two teams walking off in protest at what they have said is a racist incident, you as someone who was not there, 1000s of miles away can safely conclude its not racist over the internet. 

But hey you instead of believing the 20+ people there, the benefit of the doubt is never going to the victims but instantly to the perpetrator. 

Just exactly like the very obvious reason why some Millwall fans were booing a peaceful protest against racism, but they are not racist guv honest, they are anti-marxists (I mean literally the most stupid excuse going), apparently those Millwall fans are clever enough to see the intricacies of the political side of BLM, but at the same time not clever enough to recognise that taking the knee and the alleged politics of BLM are not the same thing, nor clever enough to realise how their supposed protest would be perceived, odd that.

Or of course you could just call a duck for what is is, a duck and realise that people booing an anti-racism protest that literally has no negative impact on them, are likely doing so because they are in fact racists themselves. 

Some of the responses here and how quickly people like to give the benefit of the doubt to people doing pathetic things, shows why all the like of Saville got away with it for so long, and why so many rapists get away with it. Always someone around to come quickly to their defence and give them the benefit of the doubt even though they have no real clue what they are talking about and oddly they never seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the victims in these situations.  

You still haven't said how calling a black man a black man is racist, despite using 1000s of words. 

Edited 9 December, 2020 by Turkish

[Ex Lion Tamer]

3 hours ago, SKD said:

First of all, negru is black in Romanian. The officials native language. Do you suggest everyone should be forced to speak English? That’s all A bit racist, really. 
 

secondly, the comment ‘go and check who he is.’ Would suggest he doesn’t know his name. Being black, is an identifiable characteristic of a POC if you’re surrounded by non black people. It’s not offensive, it’s not judgemental, it’s not degrading, it’s a fact.  
 

perhaps we should all start wearing name badges.. but I suppose that’s what you communists want. 

It may well have just been a big misunderstanding but I do think officials have a responsibility to understand the nuances of language and how they might be interpreted. They all probably ought to receive training.

Similar to Greg Clark, on the face of it he just made a mistake but he has a responsibility to understand this stuff and get his terms right.

[Ted Bates Statue]

5 hours ago, Saint Billy said:

Can you imagine the fallout if a player decided enough is enough and stopped taking the knee.

Imo peer pressure is now coming into play as far as the players are concerned, along with a fear by the establishment that stopping taking the knee could be deemed as racist in itself. 

Half the F1 drivers don't take the knee at the photo op before the race. At least that was the case in the summer, not sure if they are doing anything at all before races now.

[Toussaint]

12 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

It may well have just been a big misunderstanding but I do think officials have a responsibility to understand the nuances of language and how they might be interpreted. They all probably ought to receive training.

Similar to Greg Clark, on the face of it he just made a mistake but he has a responsibility to understand this stuff and get his terms right.

Everyone has a responsibility to stop being so easily offended, I am not referring just to race. The way it is heading we will just stop communication with people we do not know and trust. One example would be the bland nothingness coming out of commentators mouths, there is almost nothing they can say without offending someone. 

[egg]

28 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

It may well have just been a big misunderstanding but I do think officials have a responsibility to understand the nuances of language and how they might be interpreted. They all probably ought to receive training.

Similar to Greg Clark, on the face of it he just made a mistake but he has a responsibility to understand this stuff and get his terms right.

Who decides this weeks rules / nuances? Where can we find them? 

It seems to me that they're determined arbitrarily after the event. 

Greg Clarke said himself that we couldn't keep up with the changes. I only found out the other day that LGBT is no longer. Apparently there's a Q on the end, possibly a random +. If someone decides this shit, perhaps have a bit of cross society discussion, and then let us all know. 

Some words are plainly unacceptable, but amongst all the posts on this thread, not one person has said how describing the only black man amongst a group of non black men last night was in any way derogatory, racist, unacceptable, etc. 

Edited 9 December, 2020 by egg

[Lighthouse]

27 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

It may well have just been a big misunderstanding but I do think officials have a responsibility to understand the nuances of language and how they might be interpreted. They all probably ought to receive training.

Similar to Greg Clark, on the face of it he just made a mistake but he has a responsibility to understand this stuff and get his terms right.

For everyone or just the racial issues in famous countries that get the most media attention? Presumably all those criticising these Romanian officials are themselves fully informed of the differences between ethnic Tartars, Ukrainians and Romani gypsies and the correct colloquialisms which are and are not acceptable. They all know the difference between referring to someone as a Bosnian Muslim and a Muslim Bosniak and would never dream of using them in an offensive context.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Can you be 100% sure that was exactly what was said and in that context? No you can't.

Explain why two teams walked of in protest if that is apparently all was said? You can't do that either.

You weren't there, yet despite the obvious known fact of two teams walking off in protest at what they have said is a racist incident, you as someone who was not there, 1000s of miles away can safely conclude its not racist over the internet. 

But hey you instead of believing the 20+ people there, the benefit of the doubt is never going to the victims but instantly to the perpetrator. 

Just exactly like the very obvious reason why some Millwall fans were booing a peaceful protest against racism, but they are not racist guv honest, they are anti-marxists (I mean literally the most stupid excuse going), apparently those Millwall fans are clever enough to see the intricacies of the political side of BLM, but at the same time not clever enough to recognise that taking the knee and the alleged politics of BLM are not the same thing, nor clever enough to realise how their supposed protest would be perceived, odd that.

Or of course you could just call a duck for what is is, a duck and realise that people booing an anti-racism protest that literally has no negative impact on them, are likely doing so because they are in fact racists themselves. 

Some of the responses here and how quickly people like to give the benefit of the doubt to people doing pathetic things, shows why all the like of Saville got away with it for so long, and why so many rapists get away with it. Always someone around to come quickly to their defence and give them the benefit of the doubt even though they have no real clue what they are talking about and oddly they never seem to give the benefit of the doubt to the victims in these situations.  

Chelsea were convinced at the time that  Clattenburg called one of their players a monkey.  
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20507362

 

 

Edited 9 December, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

Rudiger was convinced he was racially abused

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/antonio-rudiger-racist-abuse-chelsea-tottenham-police-a9272776.html

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

John Barnes knows a bit about racism, having bananas thrown at him etc. His take on it. 
 

“Can anyone tell me how he should identify him as he doesnt know their names, and they arent wearing numbers, other than THE BLACK ONE?"

The former England international added: "Its NOT racist to describe the offender as the black one! 

"We are telling people to call us black.. he doesnt know his name there are 6/7 coaches standing together all turkish .. 1 is to be sent off , the ref says which one THE BLACK ONE what else can he say to let the ref know?

"Why cant you describe a black man as being a black man?"

 

[wadesmith]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

John Barnes knows a bit about racism, having bananas thrown at him etc. His take on it. 
 

“Can anyone tell me how he should identify him as he doesnt know their names, and they arent wearing numbers, other than THE BLACK ONE?"

The former England international added: "Its NOT racist to describe the offender as the black one! 

"We are telling people to call us black.. he doesnt know his name there are 6/7 coaches standing together all turkish .. 1 is to be sent off , the ref says which one THE BLACK ONE what else can he say to let the ref know?

"Why cant you describe a black man as being a black man?"

 

So how would he have identified him if they were all black?
 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

John Barnes knows a bit about racism, having bananas thrown at him etc. His take on it. 
 

“Can anyone tell me how he should identify him as he doesnt know their names, and they arent wearing numbers, other than THE BLACK ONE?"

The former England international added: "Its NOT racist to describe the offender as the black one! 

"We are telling people to call us black.. he doesnt know his name there are 6/7 coaches standing together all turkish .. 1 is to be sent off , the ref says which one THE BLACK ONE what else can he say to let the ref know?

"Why cant you describe a black man as being a black man?"

 

Exactly. Frankly, you have to be a bit of an idiot to see it any differently. 

[wadesmith]

Just now, egg said:

Exactly. Frankly, you have to be a bit of an idiot to see it any differently. 

So if all the players were black how would he have identified him?