Saints 2-3 Man Utd - Reaction

[Wade Garrett]

Theo is definitely better playing out wide than through the middle.  We are always going to miss a player of Ings quality.

Armstrong needs a kick up the arse.  Too sloppy today and against Wolves.

Thought we looked really tired today.  They deserved the win.

[rallyboy]

I wasn't able to watch the game but reading the comments here I assume we lost 9-0 again.

 

[DT]

Really the worst bet to win but got 10-1 on them when we were 2-0 up. Seen it so often before. Diallo was the one to bring on. Thought Bertrand played like he had eaten a full roast dinner just before kick off. Need to be bang on it against Brighton

[stknowle]

9 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

I wasn't able to watch the game but reading the comments here I assume we lost 9-0 again.

 

Ridiculous comment. I don't think the posts on this thread could lead any half sensible person to the conclusion that we lost 9-0.

[LaptopSaint]

13 minutes ago, maysie said:

Just heard Ralph interview on solent. Didn't seem too disheartened, said they gave it their all and ultimately Man Us class from the bench showed and we stopped pressing and dropped too much. Something to learn from.

I wish they'd press him more on the late subs question though. Can't argue or compete with Cavani - just don't understand why he didn't start. But if we stopped pressing and dropped too much - which we could all see... why not bring on Diallo and maybe Obafemi earlier? Not saying they're world-beaters, but a couple of our front four were out on their feet after 70 mins. And that annoying 'most points dropped after taking the lead' stat that they always show after we score isn't made up. It's obviously a problem which we don't seem to be addressing. Is the only answer to buy three or four better players? Shouldn't we at least try earlier subs?

[Saint Pete]

6 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

I wish they'd press him more on the late subs question though. Can't argue or compete with Cavani - just don't understand why he didn't start. But if we stopped pressing and dropped too much - which we could all see... why not bring on Diallo and maybe Obafemi earlier? Not saying they're world-beaters, but a couple of our front four were out on their feet after 70 mins. And that annoying 'most points dropped after taking the lead' stat that they always show after we score isn't made up. It's obviously a problem which we don't seem to be addressing. Is the only answer to buy three or four better players? Shouldn't we at least try earlier subs?

I agree we should have made another sub earlier today. But our core problem that generates those stats is that our defence is not consistently strong enough to withstand pressure from quality sides when they up the pace. To beat sides like Utd you will have to withstand pressure vat points of the game no matter what subs you make, and you can't defend like we did for goals 2 and 3. If you do, you will keep losing leads like we do.

[redder freak]

Lucky to be ahead and didn’t have the concentration and drive to take advantage and finish it. They were always likely to score at some point but it shouldn’t have been 3. Ings for Walcott might have made all the difference. And despite his fantastic set pieces, I don’t think Ward-Prowse is quite playing at the energy level he was a few weeks ago.

[trousers]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/18907349.united-celebrating-like-won-premier-league-win-saints/

 

[Saint Billy]

2 nil up and I still didn't feel comfortable. So many suicide passes from the back and all over the pitch tbh. Hopefully the loss will give us a kick up the arse. 

Long offers nothing anymore and the tactic of bringing him on is so predictable that I bet the opposing managers are having a cheeky chuckle. 

[OttawaSaint]

So what does this mean going forward? We’re hoping to have Ings and Redmond back and presumably Salisu will make the bench at some point. Diallo looks ok, but clearly we need a couple more players that we can rotate into the team. Money is tight, any significant injuries will really cripple us. We might need to temper our expectations a bit, especially with Christmas schedule to come.

[The Kraken]

We’ve really not got much depth behind the first 12 or 13. I think Redmond gives us more in defence than Djnepo, not seen enough of Diallo to see if he’s a genuine decent replacement for Romeu or JWP if they’re unavailable. Aside from that there’s no one banging on the door to get in (Ings aside obvs) so we really need to keep fingers crossed for no injuries and players maintaining form.  Personally I think the performances against Wolves and United weren’t great outside of a few bright moments. I think we’ve got enough about us for top ten, top 8 maybe, but anything above that would be a big bonus. There’s only 4 points between us and Palace in 15th, so the table is incredibly condensed.

[Convict Colony]

2 hours ago, adrian lord said:

Gave the ball away far too much, K W-P especially poor, Armstrong too.

When Long comes on it is our equivalent of the white towel. 

This, i thought our right hand side was very poor today, dont think armstrong has learnt much from running infield and losing it in field.

Too many poor passes, credit to united who can bring Cavani on and we bring on young players

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

1 hour ago, DT said:

Really the worst bet to win but got 10-1 on them when we were 2-0 up. Seen it so often before. Diallo was the one to bring on. Thought Bertrand played like he had eaten a full roast dinner just before kick off. Need to be bang on it against Brighton

I only got 5/1 at half time. I just had a gut feeling we wouldn't hold out for the win. 

I think we'll lose against Brighton. ☹️

[Shanghai Saint]

1 hour ago, Micky said:

I think the only bed wetter is yourself mate.   Most on here agree that we got beat by a team that played better than us and have much better resources available to their manager.  Go change your own sheets. 

😂😂😂 You’re so droll and witty ... Moron.

[bpsaint]

1 minute ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

I only got 5/1 at half time. I just had a gut feeling we wouldn't hold out for the win. 

I think we'll lose against Brighton. ☹️

Sky bet had a 3-2 United win boosted to 18-1 at half time, unlike the Glaswegian bedsit dweller I didn’t have the heart to place an “insurance bet” as I wanted to believe. Never mind.

Its the manner of the goals they scored that hurts the most, real shit defending for the first and second.

[St_Tel49]

2 hours ago, LGTL said:

Helps when you can bring on Cavani as opposed to Shane Long. 

Therein lies the difference

[nta786]

Why is it the bigger clubs have players who can play 90 minutes at the weekend and also 90 minutes mid-week plus with all that travelling?

Towards the end we looked like a team that had played a European game mid-week. 

9 players that played today for Man Utd also started mid week.

Do bigger teams just have better technical and fitter players?

Why can’t we and other non top 6 clubs have those levels of fitness when we don’t need to travel/play tough fixtures

[stknowle]

8 minutes ago, nta786 said:

Why is it the bigger clubs have players who can play 90 minutes at the weekend and also 90 minutes mid-week plus with all that travelling?

Towards the end we looked like a team that had played a European game mid-week. 

9 players that played today for Man Utd also started mid week.

Do bigger teams just have better technical and fitter players?

Why can’t we and other non top 6 clubs have those levels of fitness when we don’t need to travel/play tough fixtures

Don't know, the fact that we aren't in Europe and don't have to play those games are our biggest strength and the reason (now dismissed) that in my most optimistic moments we might - just maybe, in an outlying season with no fans in the grounds - do a Leicester.

Edited 29 November, 2020 by stknowle

[Toussaint]

7 minutes ago, nta786 said:

Why is it the bigger clubs have players who can play 90 minutes at the weekend and also 90 minutes mid-week plus with all that travelling?

Towards the end we looked like a team that had played a European game mid-week. 

9 players that played today for Man Utd also started mid week.

Do bigger teams just have better technical and fitter players?

Why can’t we and other non top 6 clubs have those levels of fitness when we don’t need to travel/play tough fixtures

I think it’s because the Ralph style has the team playing on its limits all of the time, hence the burnout.

[OldNick]

When Cavani came on at Half time I thought at the time that it was like the League cup final when they had Ibrahimovic, his class made all the difference.

His pass for the first and the way he moves when the defenders are napping puts him in a different league

[Toussaint]

Our problem, as I see it, it is we have a very thin squad coupled with a very intense playing style. Our success so far has relied on us having our best eleven fit, as well as in top match condition and playing to our limits. Hence the drop off, a key injury or two, probably players  carrying injuries we don’t know about, a bit of fatigue, a bit off dip in form here and there and suddenly we are exposed. Stating the obvious we need to add some proven quality, we need a stronger bench, we need more co er and competition in every area of the pitch.

[Wurzel]

9 minutes ago, nta786 said:

Why is it the bigger clubs have players who can play 90 minutes at the weekend and also 90 minutes mid-week plus with all that travelling?

Towards the end we looked like a team that had played a European game mid-week. 

9 players that played today for Man Utd also started mid week.

Do bigger teams just have better technical and fitter players?

Why can’t we and other non top 6 clubs have those levels of fitness when we don’t need to travel/play tough fixtures

I think more of a case of equal fitness but being technically better makes a real look fitter. If their attacking passes/crosses are  more accurate then that's less effort needed for their attackers to reach and/or control them. Less effort to do that leaves more energy for the subsequent killer pass and/or attempt on goal.
 

[CanadaSaint]

7 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I think it’s because the Ralph style has the team playing on its limits all of the time, hence the burnout.

It's an extremely demanding style - especially if (like us) a club doesn't have the depth.

It's a vulnerability in the micro context of an individual game, but it's also a vulnerability in the macro context of an entire season. The danger is that we'll have a really good first half of the season followed by a really bad second half.

I'm not looking for high-priced signings in the window - just good players giving us more depth in key positions.

[Morse]

Being 2 up flattered us a bit, but once you are 2 up conceding 3 is a crime. When Man U are stepping it up second half why doesn't Ralph take off Walcott and pack out the midfield and make it difficult ??? When you have the lead but the opposition is in the ascendancy kill the game off. 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

Our problem, as I see it, it is we have a very thin squad coupled with a very intense playing style. Our success so far has relied on us having our best eleven fit, as well as in top match condition and playing to our limits. Hence the drop off, a key injury or two, probably players  carrying injuries we don’t know about, a bit of fatigue, a bit off dip in form here and there and suddenly we are exposed. Stating the obvious we need to add some proven quality, we need a stronger bench, we need more co er and competition in every area of the pitch.

Yep, we’ve got about 13-14 first team players then we seem to be relying on youth who Ralph obviously doesn’t think are ready yet. You can expect all of them to be at their maximum all season, we’ve had a great start to the season, better than we hoped, today one of the worlds best strikers was the difference, it happens when you’ve got that quality Of player against you. Two winnable games coming up which could see us pass 20 points with less than a 3rd of the season gone,  which is a great achievement.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

3 hours ago, saint lard said:

Djenepo is complete shite. he’s obviously been asked to go backwards every bloody time. 
that’s not what his job is,it’s to create a threat. 
so many loose passes by so many today. 
And even when it’s obvious that we are under pressure we invite more with this consistent fecking about at the back and passing it backwards. 
which leads to more pressure and then shite passing. 
it’s time to look up and put pressure on the opposition.

ok,I know we are exceeding expectations right now but bugger me we are commiting suicide by inviting the opposition on and pissing around,we aren’t good enough at that. 
this is why I think Ralph needs to be less obstinate and compromise. 
forfeit a little of your philosophy and know when to change it up. 
 

Yep pretty much nails it. Ralph is the dogs bollocks but he could do better by not being so obstinate.

[Convict Colony]

Cavani v Verstergard/Bednerak = no contest

[washsaint]

37 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Yep pretty much nails it. Ralph is the dogs bollocks but he could do better by not being so obstinate.

Sorry but think yourself and Saint Lard are wrong on Djenepo.  He was a constant threat the 1st half and 2nd half we never got going again.  Utd were panicked anytime he got the ball: Djenepo is totally unpredictable but he is not s**t.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, nta786 said:

Why is it the bigger clubs have players who can play 90 minutes at the weekend and also 90 minutes mid-week plus with all that travelling?

Towards the end we looked like a team that had played a European game mid-week. 

9 players that played today for Man Utd also started mid week.

Do bigger teams just have better technical and fitter players?

Why can’t we and other non top 6 clubs have those levels of fitness when we don’t need to travel/play tough fixtures

It’s nothing to do with fitness and everything to do with quality off the bench. Had we lost our keeper, we’d have had Lurch in nets, they had the latest English big thing. They bought on a world class finisher, we brought on Shane Long. Better players keep the ball better, preserving energy. We have to work like fuck at times, because we give it away cheaply. 

Edited 29 November, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[HarvSFC]

Can Ralph start campaigning for 0 subs? 

[VectisSaint]

4 hours ago, LaptopSaint said:

 And that annoying 'most points dropped after taking the lead' stat that they always show after we score isn't made up. It's obviously a problem which we don't seem to be addressing. Is the only answer to buy three or four better players? Shouldn't we at least try earlier subs?

But it is from December 2018, it is meaningless, not even last season, but the season before (I know its basically since Ralph arrived). What the hell has the season before last got to do with anything? What is relevant is this season, possibly this season and last post lockdown, at an absolute stretch during 2020. We've put things in place to improve this already.

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, LeG said:

At half time they went wide to beat the press. We didn't react. I wonder if any of our coaches spotted in during play? I guess not...or they dont have faith in our bench. I reckon we can get 9pts from our next 3. Ingsy will make sure of that. The lads will be keen to put things right. We are a very good side now. 

Agree but 6 is more realistic. Aside from city, but even they seem to have lost their aura, our next 6 games look reasonable to keep up a 2 point per game average which would see us on nearly 30 by New Year’s Day, that would be incredible considering where we were 12 months ago

[austsaint]

6 hours ago, saint lard said:

Djenepo is complete shite. he’s obviously been asked to go backwards every bloody time. 
that’s not what his job is,it’s to create a threat. 
so many loose passes by so many today. 
And even when it’s obvious that we are under pressure we invite more with this consistent fecking about at the back and passing it backwards. 
which leads to more pressure and then shite passing. 
it’s time to look up and put pressure on the opposition.

ok,I know we are exceeding expectations right now but bugger me we are commiting suicide by inviting the opposition on and pissing around,we aren’t good enough at that. 
this is why I think Ralph needs to be less obstinate and compromise. 
forfeit a little of your philosophy and know when to change it up. 
 

I thought Djenepo did quite well, as did Adams.    Armstrong and Theo were our weak links forward.    The poor control, touch and loss of possession by Armstrong is a recurring sight....I'd spell him when Redmond is fit.    As others have mentioned, the use of Long is becoming embarrassing and pointless - such a bad decision to extend his contract for two seasons.    Pity we couldn't hang on for the point but in truth Man U looked a class above for most of the game.

[skintsaint]

Says a lot when I had to stop watching due to it being late at half time, but didn't really expect nothing less than us not winning by time i looked at the final score this morning.

RH needs a plan B. Was obvious it wasn't working well in the first half and a bit predictable in our play.

Anyway, still 5th and 4 points from the top at the time of writing. Not the end of the world, beat Brighton who looked a bit crap against Liverpool apart from a couple of counter attacks near the end, and we will forget this game soon enough.

 

[Give it to Ron]

7 hours ago, austsaint said:

I thought Djenepo did quite well, as did Adams.    Armstrong and Theo were our weak links forward.    The poor control, touch and loss of possession by Armstrong is a recurring sight....I'd spell him when Redmond is fit.    As others have mentioned, the use of Long is becoming embarrassing and pointless - such a bad decision to extend his contract for two seasons.    Pity we couldn't hang on for the point but in truth Man U looked a class above for most of the game.

Exactly anyone with half a football brain can see he is playing to orders, Bissaka is a marauding overlapping full back he hardly got anywhere with Moussa there.

Agree about Armstrong too wasteful in possession last 2 games and poor final ball cost us good positions.

We lost to a world class striker, although I think Ralph got it wrong and should have put on Diallo earlier strengthen midfield taken off Walcott or Che

 

[LaptopSaint]

9 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

But it is from December 2018, it is meaningless, not even last season, but the season before (I know its basically since Ralph arrived). What the hell has the season before last got to do with anything? What is relevant is this season, possibly this season and last post lockdown, at an absolute stretch during 2020. We've put things in place to improve this already.

Yeah but in three of our last four games we've been 4-0, 1-0 and 2-0 up and we've ended up 4-3, 1-1, and 2-3. So 7 goals scored and then 7 conceded.

And my point is that if we've put things in place to improve it, they're not yet working very well. We work so hard off the ball that without subs we collectively run out of steam, and only Newcastle recently have been too crap to take advantage.

Overall, not complaining at all. It's been a brilliant start to the season with Brighton and Sheff up next. But the main problem is obvious.

[Tamesaint]

I dread playing Man U at home. It always seems  to  be the same. We play well, get a lead, raise our expectations  ... and then through a combination  of sloppy defending and poor refereeing  (not this time) we lose it. For some reason, probably the raised expectations, the defeat really hurts. This match seems no different. 

Now I am sure that the MLG's of this world will quote facts that this is not always the case. Last year we drew 1 all. The year before they only scored twice after we took a 2 goal lead. We have an excellent recent record at Old Trafford ... but at the moment  this defeat is too painful. 

I have seen this film before and I don't  like it.

[SonicBoom]

It was gutting. Regardless if we deserved it we were 2-0 up. In the first half we did what we do. We chased and harried and looked to get forward when we had the ball. We had a few lucky escapes but we also caused them problems. 

Then second half, just like Villa, we came out and played differently. Whereas in the first half we looked for a forward pass, we were suddenly turning back thinking we'd retain the ball. It just meant that instead of having the ball between our midfield and strikers, we were playing most passes between our defence and midfield. United sensed we were scared to go forwards and used a high press on us. Everyone could see we'd lost our threat and were unlikely to hurt them so they poured forward. Once they got one every Saints fan watching knew we'd crumble. 

I'm not sure why we do this. It was the same against Spurs, Villa and now United. Instead of killing teams off we freeze when we are comfortable, we seem to lack confidence and the opposition realise we'd rather turn back than go forwards. I also think that RH should have changed things. The players were tiring fast and fresh legs would surely have helped instead of hoofing it to Long and it coming straight back. 

Anyway we move on. The players have done well this year and United is never going to be easy. Hopefully we learn from it and we thrash Brighton next weekend. Gonna be a long week before that getting over this though. 

[kwsaint]

We are overachieving given our resources.  We are only just getting over the debacle of the Puel/Pellegrino/Hughes years and the money that was wasted.  Agree with all the comments about the differences in bench quality - unfortunately it's a fact of life at the moment while we are still rebuilding.  RH has done an amazing job with what he has to work with - although we could do with a Plan B at times.  TBH if we manage to finish 7th and scrape a Europa league place it will have been a great season  

Games like yesterday will happen from time to time.  Just annoying that it was against Man U - as it always seems to be.  The media frenzy and plastics on social media is really irritating.

[Saint Keef]

I have found a winning formula. With 20 minutes to go, I now simply switch the TV off. I feel much better for it and as far as I'm concerned, in my head we beat Wolves 1-0 and we beat Manchester United 2-1.  We beat Newcastle 1-0. We cruised to a 4-1 victory at Villa and 2-0 against Everton. We also beat West Brom and Burnley. And....for the Spurs match I actually switched off at half time as soon as they got their first, so we actually beat them 2-1.  There you go.....much better.  I can confirm, in my head, we are now comfortably top of the league. 

[stevy777_x]

16 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Theo is definitely better playing out wide than through the middle.  We are always going to miss a player of Ings quality.

Armstrong needs a kick up the arse.  Too sloppy today and against Wolves.

Thought we looked really tired today.  They deserved the win.

Don t think Armstrong needs a kick up the arse. 
wounder if Covid has had an effect on him.

It is all very well having near to no symptoms but what if it takes an effect on you physically.

He hasn t looked as fit as he was since he tested positive

[JRM]

Two stats stand out 

- number of points dropped from winning positions 

- % of our goals against conceded in the second half/ late in games 

It would appear from that we are not as fit as many like to think, plus our concentration levels are poor in the last few minutes of games, perhaps that comes from lack of experience but we have players McCarthy, Bertrand, Romeu who should be able to lead. 

It is some consolation that we weren't in the ground for that one, horrible watching the usual United comeback,  their fans would have been unbearable 

[Teddeer]

Lots of doom and gloom on here. We lost by the odd goal to multi-million pound Man Utd who will be pushing for a top 4 spot. They knew they'd been in a game but probably deserved the win. There is a reason they are better than us and that's a thing called money. Get over this and move on to the next game but we are not suddenly a poor side just because we lose to Man Utd.

[DT]

Once you open this wound of losing when being 2-0 I fear that it will remain a mental trope unless it's ironed out quickly. That lack of confidence seeped through the team when the first went in (what WAS Bertrand doing?) and Brighton will be licking their lips at exploiting that. Need to get the mental coaches in quickly this week.

PS Diallo should have come on way earlier to add muscle to the midfield. And Theo should have crossed to Adams when he shot from a stupid angle. Hope Theo hasn't got one of those 'must play' clauses...

[Charlie Wayman]

16 hours ago, rallyboy said:

I wasn't able to watch the game but reading the comments here I assume we lost 9-0 again.

 

Pathetic!

[eelpie]

14 hours ago, Toussaint said:

Our problem, as I see it, it is we have a very thin squad coupled with a very intense playing style. Our success so far has relied on us having our best eleven fit, as well as in top match condition and playing to our limits. Hence the drop off, a key injury or two, probably players  carrying injuries we don’t know about, a bit of fatigue, a bit off dip in form here and there and suddenly we are exposed. Stating the obvious we need to add some proven quality, we need a stronger bench, we need more co er and competition in every area of the pitch.

So would this mean that our young academy prospects don't get opportunities to play in the first team?

[Charlie Wayman]

16 hours ago, trousers said:

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/18907349.united-celebrating-like-won-premier-league-win-saints/

 

What a complete & utter load of tosh. If Hasenhüttl believes this kind of nonsense then the guy is becoming seriously delusional. Talk about clutching at straws for solice. We were beaten fair and square and I'm not sure they even broke sweat to pick us apart second half.

Fact is Ralph you cocked it up big time today, we never looked like taking anything from the game even when 2-nil up and you had no answer to dealing with the changes that OGS made at HT. 

[S-Clarke]

38 minutes ago, DT said:

Once you open this wound of losing when being 2-0 I fear that it will remain a mental trope unless it's ironed out quickly. That lack of confidence seeped through the team when the first went in (what WAS Bertrand doing?) and Brighton will be licking their lips at exploiting that. Need to get the mental coaches in quickly this week.

PS Diallo should have come on way earlier to add muscle to the midfield. And Theo should have crossed to Adams when he shot from a stupid angle. Hope Theo hasn't got one of those 'must play' clauses...

We beat Everton with a 2-0, same against Newcastle and West Brom. It's been our 'go to score line' at home this year. The problem is that up against quality we just buckle eventually, whilst our CB's are decent I still don't believe they are top, top quality. The backline seems to lack leadership when the going gets tough, but it looks pretty tidy when we are on the front foot and they have the time to pass it around.

If they are put under any real pressure they do seem to melt a bit.

[Lighthouse]

52 minutes ago, DT said:

Once you open this wound of losing when being 2-0 I fear that it will remain a mental trope unless it's ironed out quickly. That lack of confidence seeped through the team when the first went in (what WAS Bertrand doing?) and Brighton will be licking their lips at exploiting that. Need to get the mental coaches in quickly this week.

PS Diallo should have come on way earlier to add muscle to the midfield. And Theo should have crossed to Adams when he shot from a stupid angle. Hope Theo hasn't got one of those 'must play' clauses...

I doubt it as they are fictitious.

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

We beat Everton with a 2-0, same against Newcastle and West Brom. It's been our 'go to score line' at home this year. The problem is that up against quality we just buckle eventually, whilst our CB's are decent I still don't believe they are top, top quality. The backline seems to lack leadership when the going gets tough, but it looks pretty tidy when we are on the front foot and they have the time to pass it around.

If they are put under any real pressure they do seem to melt a bit.

Yep, Everton, Newcastle and WBA barely laid a glove on us, whilst we can give credit to the midfield and strikers for pressing and not letting that happen, in the games where we have been under the cosh a bit we tend to buckle and concede, it's the 4th time we've conceded 3 or more goals this season in only 10 games which shows that the problems of the last few seasons haven't gone away, Cavani made a big difference yesterday but even at half time you felt we'd got away with it a bit coming in 2-0 up.