Greg Clarke - Racist or PC victim ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

They are awful in nets, terrible. I don’t buy the “scared to get hit” as some are as  brave as men. But they don’t seem to be able to dive naturally or catch the ball into their bodies. Maybe their tits get in the way, I don’t know . I guess Clarke talking about that would have got him in more trouble than he did. 

[Turkish]

I realise in today’s politically correct world you aren’t allowed to tell the truth but it seems to me a lot of fuss about nothing and people wanting to be offended

despite the claims he didn’t say being gay is a life choice, he said if a player makes a decision to come out that is a life choice and he hoped fans and players would support that. Anything wrong with that? I thought everyone wanted gay players to come out

As others have verified, young girls don’t like being hit by footballs, fair and true comment

As for the comment about Asians in IT well as I’ve worked in the IT industry for 20 years with and for some of the worlds biggest companies he’s right, there are far far more Asians in technical roles than black people. Again another fact

so we’re left with the fact he’s had to resign because he he said coloured people instead of people of colour when sticking up for them for the abuse they get on social  media. 
 

4 factual statements that people don’t like which contain one bad choice of words in a well intentioned statement 

that’s the world today everyone 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by Turkish

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I realise in today’s politically correct world you aren’t allowed to tell the truth but it seems to me a lot of fuss about nothing and people wanting to be offended

despite the claims he didn’t say being gay is a life choice, he said if a player makes a decision to come out that is a life choice and he hoped fans and players would support that. Anything wrong with that? I thought everyone wanted gay players to come out

As others have verified, young girls don’t like being hit by footballs, fair and true comment

As for the comment about Asians in IT well as I’ve worked in the IT industry for 20 years with and for some of the worlds biggest companies he’s right, there are far far more Asians in technical roles than black people. Again another fact

so we’re left with the fact he’s had to resign because he he said coloured people instead of people of colour when sticking up for them for the abuse they get on social  media. 
 

4 factual statements that people don’t like which contain one bad choice of words in a well intentioned statement 

that’s the world today everyone 

Yep to all of that. I believe that he also said that black people are in fact over represented in football as against Asian people. Also correct. Indeed, he could have gone further and said that black people are over represented in football in terms of the proportion of black players to the population. No doubt there may be factors why black people excel in football and rightly achieve their potential, and on the opposite side of the coin, good reason why black people / Asian people / females /etc don't do so well in certain areas of society. 

[Fan The Flames]

2 hours ago, egg said:

All girls are different, I can only say what mine were like. Based on their experience, I can accept what Clarke was told, and in the context of the forum, why he raised it. People in authority cannot be fearful of giving anecdotes and explanations in case it breaches some unwritten social rules. 

An anecdote isn't proof off anything realky though, its just one persons opinion and if you are speaking at a select meeting you need to bring more to the table then a few anecdotes. Football has form with this stuff, black guys are no good in goal, foreigners cant play on a wet weekend night in Grimsby, he doesn't look like a footballer, big guys cant jump/haven't got skillful feet, Asians can't play. 

You just have to think about it for a second, there are plenty of girls playing rough sports and there are plenty of proper goal keepers playing in womens football, so if there is a problem with bringing girl goal keepers through, there might be another reason.

Your girls gave up football because they just weren't into it just like hundreds of boys who give up, it doent prove some fundamental about women's football.

[buctootim]

11 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

An anecdote isn't proof off anything realky though, its just one persons opinion and if you are speaking at a select meeting you need to bring more to the table then a few anecdotes. Football has form with this stuff, black guys are no good in goal, foreigners cant play on a wet weekend night in Grimsby, he doesn't look like a footballer, big guys cant jump/haven't got skillful feet, Asians can't play. 

You just have to think about it for a second, there are plenty of girls playing rough sports and there are plenty of proper goal keepers playing in womens football, so if there is a problem with bringing girl goal keepers through, there might be another reason.

Your girls gave up football because they just weren't into it just like hundreds of boys who give up, it doent prove some fundamental about women's football.

Exactly. Clarke's job was to promote football and get more people into the game. If you're going to simply use language of 50 years ago and think things cant be changed because Asians are hard wired to be IT geeks or girls don't like mud then he shouldnt be in the job. 

[egg]

16 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

An anecdote isn't proof off anything realky though, its just one persons opinion and if you are speaking at a select meeting you need to bring more to the table then a few anecdotes. Football has form with this stuff, black guys are no good in goal, foreigners cant play on a wet weekend night in Grimsby, he doesn't look like a footballer, big guys cant jump/haven't got skillful feet, Asians can't play. 

You just have to think about it for a second, there are plenty of girls playing rough sports and there are plenty of proper goal keepers playing in womens football, so if there is a problem with bringing girl goal keepers through, there might be another reason.

Your girls gave up football because they just weren't into it just like hundreds of boys who give up, it doent prove some fundamental about women's football.

We're approaching this completely differently. I'm not suggesting that my girls experience proves anything, other than a) it happened, and that b) my experience is in line with what Clarke said. 

Clarke was reporting facts as he understood them. There can be no issue with it. Like it or not, reality and stereotypes can match. 

[Lighthouse]

Just now, buctootim said:

Exactly. Clarke's job was to promote football and get more people into the game. If you're going to simply use language of 50 years ago and think things cant be changed because Asians are hard wired to be IT geeks or girls don't like mud then he shouldnt be in the job. 

The way I read his comments, these were more observations. Have we reached a stage where simply pointing out imbalances and stereotypes has become frowned upon? How can we address any of these issues if they can't even be referred to in conversation?

 

The problem with saying 'young girls don't like a football being kicked in their face,' is that the only responses you get are from female footballers who disagree. I can only provided anecdotal evidence from my own childhood but that was largely true of the girls in my year. Girls played football in PE but not with any real enthusiasm and I can't remember any of them choosing to play it in their own free time or lunch break.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, egg said:

People in authority cannot be fearful of giving anecdotes and explanations in case it breaches some unwritten social rules. 

Like saying gay footballers who choose to make their sexuality public are making a lifestyle choice and their team mates should support them?

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Like saying gay footballers who choose to make their sexuality public are making a lifestyle choice and their team mates should support them?

That's an opinion. I'm talking facts. 

[buctootim]

20 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The way I read his comments, these were more observations. Have we reached a stage where simply pointing out imbalances and stereotypes has become frowned upon? How can we address any of these issues if they can't even be referred to in conversation?

 

The problem with saying 'young girls don't like a football being kicked in their face,' is that the only responses you get are from female footballers who disagree. I can only provided anecdotal evidence from my own childhood but that was largely true of the girls in my year. Girls played football in PE but not with any real enthusiasm and I can't remember any of them choosing to play it in their own free time or lunch break.

But his job is to have more sections of society play the game and not feel 'it isn't for them'. Yes of course he is up against all kinds of history, cultural attitudes, what is seen as cool for boys is not for girls etc but you cant just shrug your shoulders and and say thats the way it is - otherwise what is he being paid for?

Culture and perceptions change over time and in different locations.  Lacrosse is seen as a macho rough game in the States, here in the UK its seen as a prissy posh girls school game. Ditto rounders is for kids, baseball is for men. Netball is girly, basketball is macho. You cant have the head of those sports in either US or UK go out saying their sport only appeals to kids / rich girls / macho guys "what can I do guv? "   If thats the way you feel, do a different job.     

Edited 14 November, 2020 by buctootim

[Fan The Flames]

55 minutes ago, egg said:

We're approaching this completely differently. I'm not suggesting that my girls experience proves anything, other than a) it happened, and that b) my experience is in line with what Clarke said. 

Clarke was reporting facts as he understood them. There can be no issue with it. Like it or not, reality and stereotypes can match. 

No Clarke wasn't reporting facts he was reporting opinions, this wasn't some study, just what a few blokes in the game think. So we don't know if the reality and this stereotype actually match. That's my point.

It doesn't take much critical thinking to see that these blokes, similar to the one's who have been wrong before, may be wrong again.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

No Clarke wasn't reporting facts he was reporting opinions, this wasn't some study, just what a few blokes in the game think. So we don't know if the reality and this stereotype actually match. That's my point.

It doesn't take much critical thinking to see that these blokes, similar to the one's who have been wrong before, may be wrong again.

We'll agree to differ. In passing on my experience with my daughters, I'm passing on fact not expressing an opinion. Clarke did exactly the same. If you say that he expressed a personal opinion about girls / footy / goalkeepers, you're wrong. 

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, buctootim said:

But his job is to have more sections of society play the game and not feel 'it isn't for them'. Yes of course he is up against all kinds of history, cultural attitudes, what is seen as cool for boys is not for girls etc but you cant just shrug your shoulders and and say thats the way it is - otherwise what is he being paid for?

Culture and perceptions change over time and in different locations.  Lacrosse is seen as a macho rough game in the States, here in the UK its seen as a prissy posh girls school game. Ditto rounders is for kids, baseball is for men. Netball is girly, basketball is macho. You cant have the head of those sports in either US or UK go out saying their sport only appeals to kids / rich girls / macho guys "what can I do guv? "   If thats the way you feel, do a different job.     

So what’s wrong with point out his observations as to why they don’t at the moment?, just because some people don’t like them doesn’t mean they’re not true. 

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

We'll agree to differ. In passing on my experience with my daughters, I'm passing on fact not expressing an opinion. Clarke did exactly the same. If you say that he expressed a personal opinion about girls / footy / goalkeepers, you're wrong. 

People don’t like facts when theyre different to their opinion. 

[buctootim]

15 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So what’s wrong with point out his observations as to why they don’t at the moment?, just because some people don’t like them doesn’t mean they’re not true. 

His language was clumsy and outdated. There are ways to say things without pissing off your members, players. MPs and millions of the general public. That's why he had to go. He is a nationally important position and paid large sums and he cant talk about football without causing upset. Even if you forget about what he said he is culpable for not foreseeing the reaction.   

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, buctootim said:

His language was clumsy and outdated. There are ways to say things without pissing off your members, players. MPs and millions of the general public. That's why he had to go. He is a nationally important position and paid large sums and he cant talk about football without causing upset. Even if you forget about what he said he is culpable for not foreseeing the reaction.   

So give him diversity training. This goes well beyond anything to do with equality and diversity, it’s a 21st century witch-hunt.

[buctootim]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

So give him diversity training. This goes well beyond anything to do with equality and diversity, it’s a 21st century witch-hunt.

Haha. He's not junior admin. He is the national freaking head, he is supposed to be leading by example. Everybody is entitled to expect a full skill set from somebody in that position. 23 yr old Marcus Rashford who went to a sink school has demonstrated far more effectively how you bring about change without alienating people. 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by buctootim

[Turkish]

18 minutes ago, buctootim said:

His language was clumsy and outdated. There are ways to say things without pissing off your members, players. MPs and millions of the general public. That's why he had to go. He is a nationally important position and paid large sums and he cant talk about football without causing upset. Even if you forget about what he said he is culpable for not foreseeing the reaction.   

He caused an upset because he told the truth, a truth people didn’t want to hear. That’s what it comes down to.  You even had someone say on here even if it was true why say it FFS!!! Maybe if people actually stopped being offended about not being told What they want to hear and actually thought hang on a minute, these are the observations of one of the key people in English football, we can actually start to work to making it better, instead people are crying about the words he used not fixing the problems. 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by Turkish

[Fan The Flames]

34 minutes ago, Turkish said:

People don’t like facts when theyre different to their opinion. 

What he said about girl's wasn't a fact it was an opinion, hth.

[wadesmith]

You lost. Get over it.

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He caused an upset because he told the truth, a truth people didn’t want to hear. That’s what it comes down to.  You even had someone say on here even if it was true why say it FFS!!! Maybe if people actually stopped being offended about not being told What they want to hear and actually thought hang on a minute, these are the observations of one of the key people in English football, we can actually start to work to making it better, instead people are crying about the words he used not fixing the problems. 

Because some old blazer from the FA says it doesn't necessarily make it true.

[Turkish]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

Because some old blazer from the FA says it doesn't necessarily make it true.

So if his view doesn’t matter why are so many getting upset about? Why invite him to the diversity meeting in the first place?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

So if his view doesn’t matter why are so many getting upset about? Why invite him to the diversity meeting in the first place?

A conspiracy theorist could have an opinion on the latter. He's now out of the job. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

So if his view doesn’t matter why are so many getting upset about? Why invite him to the diversity meeting in the first place?

I didn't say his view didn't mstter, it matters because he is the chairman of the FA speaking on behalf of thd FA. That doesn't mean everything he says is correct.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, egg said:

A conspiracy theorist could have an opinion on the latter. He's now out of the job. 

What a shit and pointless conspiracy that would be. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What he said about girl's wasn't a fact it was an opinion, hth.

It wasn't. Post up the words that you say he used expressing his opinion. 

I'll help you though - there were none. 

[egg]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

What a shit and pointless conspiracy that would be. 

Go easy expressing an opinion mate. They're not allowed. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

I didn't say his view didn't mstter, it matters because he is the chairman of the FA speaking on behalf of thd FA. That doesn't mean everything he says is correct.

Well as chairman of the FA speaking on behalf of the FA, surely they wanted his view and rather then crying because it wasn’t the view they wanted to hear maybe they should take note of it. Or are we at the pointy where his view is only correct if it’s what they want to be told?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

That's an opinion. I'm talking facts. 

So you're claiming that if any footballer 'came out' to the public, his / her decision to do so would definitely not factually be a 'lifestyle' choice, but could be in some people's opinions?

[Fan The Flames]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

It wasn't. Post up the words that you say he used expressing his opinion. 

I'll help you though - there were none. 

I didn't say he was expressing his opinion I said he was expressing an opinion. 

Some coach telling him that girls dont like the ball hit hard at them isn't a fact it's the opinion of a coach. 

[Fan The Flames]

9 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So you're claiming that if any footballer 'came out' to the public, his / her decision to do so would definitely not factually be a 'lifestyle' choice, but could be in some people's opinions?

FFS we were speaking specifically about the line about girls football.

[Fan The Flames]

11 minutes ago, egg said:

Go easy expressing an opinion mate. They're not allowed. 

Stop with the faux outrage. This is a witch hunt.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

FFS we were speaking specifically about the line about girls football.

You may have been, I wasn't.  That is allowed isn't it, discussing something else?

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

 

Some coach telling him that girls dont like the ball hit hard at them isn't a fact it's the opinion of a coach. 

It was a fact that the coach told him  chicks didn’t like the ball being hit at them. 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[egg]

18 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

So you're claiming that if any footballer 'came out' to the public, his / her decision to do so would definitely not factually be a 'lifestyle' choice, but could be in some people's opinions?

I'm not talking about the gay point. Not sure why you raise it. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Wrong. 
 

It was a fact that the coach told him  chicks didn’t like the ball being hit at them. 

Yep. It's not hard to comprehend. 

[Weston Super Saint]

10 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not talking about the gay point. Not sure why you raise it. 

Really?....

First, you stated this - pretty clear it's about the 'gay point', no?

On 11/11/2020 at 17:57, egg said:

That's not how I heard it, but regardless, the words gay and choice in the same breath aren't clever. 

 

You then said this :

5 hours ago, egg said:

 People in authority cannot be fearful of giving anecdotes and explanations in case it breaches some unwritten social rules. 

I quoted that and questioned it given your previous statement about the 'gay point' - the implication being that you've previously stated it was 'not clever' but then you claim people in authority shouldn't be fearful of giving anecdotes, which is exactly what he gave!

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Like saying gay footballers who choose to make their sexuality public are making a lifestyle choice and their team mates should support them?

Then you've claim his anecdote is an opinion, not a fact, when clearly, deciding to tell the world about your sexuality is indeed a 'life choice', given the effect it is likely to have on one's life, especially a professional footballer in a time when there are very few openly gay footballers!

2 hours ago, egg said:

That's an opinion. I'm talking facts. 

Not sure how you've not managed to keep up....

Edited 14 November, 2020 by Weston Super Saint

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. Clarke's job was to promote football and get more people into the game. If you're going to simply use language of 50 years ago and think things cant be changed because Asians are hard wired to be IT geeks or girls don't like mud then he shouldnt be in the job. 

So do you not think there are personality traits that on average are shared to a greater extent amongst a certain ethnicity or cultural group? Not exactly beyond the realms of possibility that this would lead to certain groups of people favouring some professions over others. 

[hypochondriac]

51 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Haha. He's not junior admin. He is the national freaking head, he is supposed to be leading by example. Everybody is entitled to expect a full skill set from somebody in that position. 23 yr old Marcus Rashford who went to a sink school has demonstrated far more effectively how you bring about change without alienating people. 

With respect, I really doubt that particular campaign has an awful lot to do with Marcus Rashford himself and an awful lot more to do with his PR team though I suppose your point could be that Clarke should have employed something similar? 

[wadesmith]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So do you not think there are personality traits that on average are shared to a greater extent amongst a certain ethnicity or cultural group? Not exactly beyond the realms of possibility that this would lead to certain groups of people favouring some professions over others. 

Do you think certain ethnicity groups in Britain favour some professions over others? I don’t know the answer to that btw. Give some examples, you may be right.

[whelk]

Girls used to be shit at throwing when I was at school. Looked like me throwing with my left hand.

Also one of my daughters joined football club at school and initially keen. Came home after first session she was the only girl and they took the piss. Unfortunately she hasn’t inherited her dad’s sporting ability and too much like her mother, who is shit at football too.

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

With respect, I really doubt that particular campaign has an awful lot to do with Marcus Rashford himself and an awful lot more to do with his PR team though I suppose your point could be that Clarke should have employed something similar? 

Is that because youthink he is an uneducated back man so how could he orchestrate change?

[hypochondriac]

28 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

FFS we were speaking specifically about the line about girls football.

 

30 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I didn't say he was expressing his opinion I said he was expressing an opinion. 

Some coach telling him that girls dont like the ball hit hard at them isn't a fact it's the opinion of a coach. 

Let's entertain the idea for a moment that it is true that one reason there are less participation in football from young women and girls is because they don't like the football being kicked at them. Don't you think that would be worthy of a discussion when talking about lower participation rates? 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Is that because youthink he is an uneducated back man so how could he orchestrate change?

That's a weird prejudice for you to express. I think that because he used and continues to use a PR firm: 

 

Marcus Rashford, the Manchester United star whose free school meals campaign forced the government into a u-turn earlier this month, has join Roc Nation, the American talent agency founded by Shawn Carter, better known as Beyonce's other half Jay-Z.

The Telegraph has today reported that the footballer actually signed to the agency in April, and now represents him in his philanthropic work as well as PR and marketing. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

That's a weird prejudice for you to express. I think that because he used and continues to use a PR firm: 

 

Marcus Rashford, the Manchester United star whose free school meals campaign forced the government into a u-turn earlier this month, has join Roc Nation, the American talent agency founded by Shawn Carter, better known as Beyonce's other half Jay-Z.

The Telegraph has today reported that the footballer actually signed to the agency in April, and now represents him in his philanthropic work as well as PR and marketing. 

Why weird? Would you not feel comfortable giving him credit?

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

Do you think certain ethnicity groups in Britain favour some professions over others? I don’t know the answer to that btw. Give some examples, you may be right.

I think there's both cultural and ethnic reasons why some groups prefer certain professions over others. I think we all accept that there are biological factors between ethnicties which means they are going to be better or more attracted to certain roles than others. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Why weird? Would you not feel comfortable giving him credit?

It's an odd thing to bring up. Him being black or uneducated-if that is what he is- has nothing to do with it. It's actually a smart decision on his part or whoever is advising him. If I had the cash and the high profile I'd probably do it too. 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by hypochondriac

[wadesmith]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I think there's both cultural and ethnic reasons why some groups prefer certain professions over others. I think we all accept that there are biological factors between ethnicties which means they are going to be better or more attracted to certain roles than others. 

Can you give some examples?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, wadesmith said:

Can you give some examples?

There's a number you could point to (Clarke gave the example of Asians in It) but lets go for an obvious one and say sprinters. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

You may have been, I wasn't.  That is allowed isn't it, discussing something else?

So you typed 'so you're claiming' just for fun then. You've always struggled to keep up.