Walcott

[washsaint]

Apologies, as I am sure there are other threads out there on Theo but I can't find them!

Did anyone else get a lovely warm feeling inside listening to Theo's interview post Newcastle game?  Seeing the genuine joy on his face at playing for Saints and what is happening right now was lovely to see.  His genuine affection for the club and way he speaks is lovely to see - I was not a fan of him returning but he has already shown how little I know.

He is still rusty in front of the goal but his work rate has been phenomenal and the stints he puts in for the team is great to see: he obviously completely buys into what Ralph is doing here and looks like he is enjoying every minute of his time back here.  Between him and JWP, they should both inspire the Academy graduates as to what hard work and dedication can bring.

After so many dark years watching Saints, this is the best football I can remember since Nicholl's day (far slicker than Pocettino's teams and the pragmatism of Koeman's teams).  Long may it continue!

[Saint_clark]

Really hope we sign him on a free at the end of the season. I know he's 31 and on his way out but I genuinely believe having players like him, Ings, JWP, Bertrand, Long around who have great love for the club is what drives our style of play even further. 

[Minty]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Really hope we sign him on a free at the end of the season. I know he's 31 and on his way out but I genuinely believe having players like him, Ings, JWP, Bertrand, Long around who have great love for the club is what drives our style of play even further. 

I'll stick my neck out and say that he will love being here that the wage drop won't be an issue and he'll sign a 2-year deal. 

[beatlesaint]

He’s no fool. He knows at 31 he’s in the last chance saloon for a decent permanent transfer to a Premier League club.

Nowhere better for him to be than Southampton, suits both player and club.

[Whitey Grandad]

He showed in his interview how pleased he is to be here and how much he’s enjoying his new life. It’s like he’s been let off the leash.

[skintsaint]

Got an assist last game but what a shit cross for Adams to score....pinged it to him about knee height. Luckily Adams had the tekkers to keep it down. 

Still not too impressed with him so far with his poor finishing and slow touches.

[alehouseboys]

18 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Got an assist last game but what a shit cross for Adams to score....pinged it to him about knee height. Luckily Adams had the tekkers to keep it down. 

Still not too impressed with him so far with his poor finishing and slow touches.

Harsh. After good work winning the ball back he picked out Adams' run for a top class finish. If he'd rolled it along the ground to Che he'd just as likely have slammed it into the covering defender. Walcott's work rate and contribution so far has been excellent and unlucky not to have a goal against his name.

[skintsaint]

8 minutes ago, alehouseboys said:

Harsh. After good work winning the ball back he picked out Adams' run for a top class finish. If he'd rolled it along the ground to Che he'd just as likely have slammed it into the covering defender. Walcott's work rate and contribution so far has been excellent and unlucky not to have a goal against his name.

WP decisively won the ball back and Walcott just picked up the loose ball, then sent a shocker knee high cross in. I'm not as easily pleased as modern fans it seems. Still annoyed he missed that simple chance to make it 2 nil into the corner. For his hefty wage he hasn't delivered for me and just carrying on his Everton form. Still time to change my mind though - 10 goals and 5 assists will do it by season end

[alehouseboys]

18 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

WP decisively won the ball back and Walcott just picked up the loose ball, then sent a shocker knee high cross in. I'm not as easily pleased as modern fans it seems. Still annoyed he missed that simple chance to make it 2 nil into the corner. For his hefty wage he hasn't delivered for me and just carrying on his Everton form. Still time to change my mind though - 10 goals and 5 assists will do it by season end

“Modern fans” this is my fifth decade+ of going and actually supporting this club

Each to their own but I think he’s settling back well, contributing and a touch unlucky not to have had his name on the score sheet so far.

[beatlesaint]

57 minutes ago, alehouseboys said:

Each to their own but I think he’s settling back well, contributing and a touch unlucky not to have had his name on the score sheet so far.

Exactly this.

[CWD]

He’s playing like a 16 year old again. Vs Newcastle he was just running straight at defenders at pace. Not a lot of skill or finesse, just driving. Sometimes it made things happen and sometimes it didn’t, but it’s great to see.

And he’s such a brilliant ambassador for the club. So articulate and passionate. I just hope this early enthusiasm doesn’t fade because I love having him back and would love it to be a success long term. 

[Avenue_Saint]

5 hours ago, alehouseboys said:

“Modern fans” this is my fifth decade+ of going and actually supporting this club

Each to their own but I think he’s settling back well, contributing and a touch unlucky not to have had his name on the score sheet so far.

This

[the saint in winchester]

This is a marriage made in heaven, and this marriage is going to last.

I was in favour of him returning, I even proposed it (somewhere in the 85 pages of Transfer Window Summer 20, it'll be there) but even I was unsure whether he had it in his legs to make a contribution. He is exceeding expectations already. The training will make him fitter still, and he'll be knocking out the full 90 minutes regularly. The finishing will come, especially if Danny and Che can coach him back to that level. He's had 15 years of playing as a winger, give him some time.

His enthusiasm for being back here is infectious. He wants this! He's ours for keeps. Play as long as he can, then give him a player-coach role.

I'll stick my neck out and predict, come next May, he will be our Player of the Season.

[rudi7s]

I never quite got why he had such a mixed (bordering on negative) reputation. At Arsenal he had 2-3 seasons where he was v good, i think 2011-2013 ish. All in all he's had a very respectable career - and can clearly still do a job at the top level. Would love to see him sign permanently. 

[East Kent Saint]

He did improve at Arsenal but still did not take enough chances. He did make public his desire to play as striker and Wenger gave it a go but he did not put enough chances away and got moved on . He is not a “natural” goal scorer ie if given time to think he waits too long or duffs it . He seems better when he just “does it”! 
Hopefully his good games will outway his ineffective games for Saints this season and possibly beyond .

[Toussaint]

On 12/11/2020 at 07:48, skintsaint said:

WP decisively won the ball back and Walcott just picked up the loose ball, then sent a shocker knee high cross in. I'm not as easily pleased as modern fans it seems. Still annoyed he missed that simple chance to make it 2 nil into the corner. For his hefty wage he hasn't delivered for me and just carrying on his Everton form. Still time to change my mind though - 10 goals and 5 assists will do it by season end

There's a lot of love for Theo here so fair play for sticking your neck out. From my perspective I thought he would be a bad signing and was wrong. He has been much better than I expected, he is definitely an upgrade on Redmond in as others have said he picks up the ball and runs at people (which Redmond doesn't do so effectively these days, in my view), which I love to see. It's for that same reason I took to Armstrong very quickly as he was the only one in the era of square and backward passing to do that. In my unsophisticated football brain I like a bit of direct running and the excitement it creates and I think Theo has provided that. Ralph did say in the post match interview they need to work on his finishing, if they can improve on that he will be a huge acquisition for us.

[Mosin]

On 12/11/2020 at 07:48, skintsaint said:

WP decisively won the ball back and Walcott just picked up the loose ball, then sent a shocker knee high cross in. I'm not as easily pleased as modern fans it seems. Still annoyed he missed that simple chance to make it 2 nil into the corner. For his hefty wage he hasn't delivered for me and just carrying on his Everton form. Still time to change my mind though - 10 goals and 5 assists will do it by season end

The way i seen it was if the ball didnt come at the hight and pace it did, Adams wouldnt have got the finish off as the defender would have been on his case, any less pace on that cross and it wasnt a goal, And both Theo and WP won the ball back, WP wouldnt have got possesion as he was the wrong side of player ( player between him and the ball ) at the time Theo took the ball of the player, if walcott hadnt been pressing with WP, we wouldnt have won possesion back.

 

[Charlie Wayman]

On 12/11/2020 at 07:48, skintsaint said:

WP decisively won the ball back and Walcott just picked up the loose ball, then sent a shocker knee high cross in. I'm not as easily pleased as modern fans it seems. Still annoyed he missed that simple chance to make it 2 nil into the corner. For his hefty wage he hasn't delivered for me and just carrying on his Everton form. Still time to change my mind though - 10 goals and 5 assists will do it by season end

Quite mean spirited comment from you and wide of the mark. The lad has played - what? - two games since he arrived and has adapted at an astonishing pace to Hasenhüttl's methods when you consider the expensive over-hyped young - now - fringe players who are still struggling to get up to speed. Stand on the naughty step!

[VectisSaint]

On 12/11/2020 at 07:13, skintsaint said:

Got an assist last game but what a shit cross for Adams to score....pinged it to him about knee height. Luckily Adams had the tekkers to keep it down. 

Still not too impressed with him so far with his poor finishing and slow touches.

To be fair, Walcott did say in the post match interview that his pass to Adams was a touch overhit, but doesn't take away from the fact that he was instrumental in winning the ball back and making the pass to Adams that resulted in the goal. Made a lot of other good runs and passes, was unlucky with his shot that didn't quite curl enough to go in and should have won a penalty. I think you are being harsh, especially when he played much of the game with a broken hand and was clearly in a fair bit of discomfort as a result.

[aintforever]

Fantastic signing, it's great seeing him back in a Saints shirt and I think we're the ideal club to get the best out of him at this stage in his career. I don't get the negativity, he already has two more assists than Redmond this season.

[Saint Keef]

I was a pro-Walcott signing and in the two games he has played I think he has proved his worth. Running at defenders with pace in today's football climate, the slightest touch by a defender will bring free kicks and penalties, hopefully in dangerous places, and we now have the the ideal weapon (JWP) to cash in on those free kicks.  a goal from him would be great. Look what Che Adams has become once he got that blinder against City. Yes, Theo is probably on big money, but remember, he didn't cost us a transfer fee. If he carries on playing like he has so far, there may well be a fee to pay next year.

[VectisSaint]

10 minutes ago, Saint Keef said:

I was a pro-Walcott signing and in the two games he has played I think he has proved his worth. Running at defenders with pace in today's football climate, the slightest touch by a defender will bring free kicks and penalties, hopefully in dangerous places, and we now have the the ideal weapon (JWP) to cash in on those free kicks.  a goal from him would be great. Look what Che Adams has become once he got that blinder against City. Yes, Theo is probably on big money, but remember, he didn't cost us a transfer fee. If he carries on playing like he has so far, there may well be a fee to pay next year.

He is out of contract next Summer, so no transfer fee.

[Saint Keef]

2 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

He is out of contract next Summer, so no transfer fee.

Thanks for that Vectis - I'd forgotten that. Can only be good news then. I can't see him wanting to go anywhere else. 

[alehouseboys]

He’ll be 32 before the end of this season and then looking for a new contract. I’m sure he’ll be realistic and knows he won’t be able to command the same level of salary he secured at Goodison despite no transfer fee involved, even if the next 5 months goes very well.

Hopefully work out well for both club and player.

[austsaint]

6 minutes ago, alehouseboys said:

He’ll be 32 before the end of this season and then looking for a new contract. I’m sure he’ll be realistic and knows he won’t be able to command the same level of salary he secured at Goodison despite no transfer fee involved, even if the next 5 months goes very well.

Hopefully work out well for both club and player.

If Shane Long can be given a two year extension Theo must be a candidate for a contract the way he has fitted in.  Chances are other Clubs may offer him say a two year deal in the Summer while the Club may prefer a one year contract.

[verlaine1979]

Walcott's control is still very good, which enables him to turn more quickly than most of our attackers. His pace is obviously not what it once was, but several times against Newcastle he picked the ball up centrally and advanced to the edge of the box, driving the defense backwards and allowing our wide players to make runs.

He's a different threat to Ings, and certainly won't score as many, but I do think he adds a new dimension to how we build attacks through the middle, which could unsettle teams who think they have us worked out.

[hypochondriac]

I know football is all about different opinions, but I don't understand how you couldn't have looked at Theo running directly at players and thought "that's exactly what we've been missing for ages."

[rooney]

22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I know football is all about different opinions, but I don't understand how you couldn't have looked at Theo running directly at players and thought "that's exactly what we've been missing for ages."

I posted the same after the Chelsea game.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I know football is all about different opinions, but I don't understand how you couldn't have looked at Theo running directly at players and thought "that's exactly what we've been missing for ages."

Indeed so. He’s a battering ram that breaks up the defensive formation. It disturbs their shape and creates opportunities for others. Much better than our ponderous efforts of recent years.

[badgerx16]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I know football is all about different opinions, but I don't understand how you couldn't have looked at Theo running directly at players and thought "that's exactly what we've been missing for ages."

If only Redmond showed more willingness to do so.

[egg]

He's been a breath of fresh air so far. As Hypo says, the direct running is what we've been missing. If he can stay fit I think he'll be great for us. As for a contract, it's early days but based on performances and attitude, it has to be on the agenda. 

[StrangelyBrown]

12 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I know football is all about different opinions, but I don't understand how you couldn't have looked at Theo running directly at players and thought "that's exactly what we've been missing for ages."

It's not just about what someone does with the ball. After all only one person has the ball at any given time.

I remain to be convinced that he does enough off the ball or is intelligent enough with his running to create spaces for others.

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

It's not just about what someone does with the ball. After all only one person has the ball at any given time.

I remain to be convinced that he does enough off the ball or is intelligent enough with his running to create spaces for others.

I fail to see how anyone could look at his contribution thus far and not think he was a great person to bring in. 

[Badger]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I fail to see how anyone could look at his contribution thus far and not think he was a great person to bring in. 

Agreed. Can't believe anyone would think otherwise when the most likely alternatives are Shane Long, or Obafemi. 

Long can be a useful sub but don't think he should be a starter for us.

[StrangelyBrown]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I fail to see how anyone could look at his contribution thus far and not think he was a great person to bring in. 

So far he's been positive, but "great" is a stretch and it's only been 2 games. Let's see what his overall contribution has been in 5 or so games.

[TWar]

11 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

If only Redmond showed more willingness to do so.

No idea where this myth came from. Redmond had the 5th most successful take on's in the league last season. It's like people are watching a different player. Even this season where he has had a poor start he is 20th in the league for successful take ons per 90, Walcott is 57th and Djenepo is 23rd. 

Edited 15 November, 2020 by TWar

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

No idea where this myth came from. Redmond had the 5th most successful take on's in the league last season. It's like people are watching a different player. Even this season where he has had a poor start he is 20th in the league for successful take ons per 90, Walcott is 57th and Djenepo is 23rd. 

Some people watch the game not stats charts mate. Anyone who has seen us with Walcott in the team can see he brings something that we’ve lacked for a few years. 

[TWar]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Some people watch the game not stats charts mate. Anyone who has seen us with Walcott in the team can see he brings something that we’ve lacked for a few years. 

Walcott has been good, not denying that, I'd even say better than Redmond with his quality in the final third and linking of play coupled with his desire to track back. This is likely why he is currently getting the nod over Redmond. It is, however, objectively wrong to say Walcott "runs directly at players" and Redmond doesn't when Redmond objectively has more take on attempts than Walcott per min, more successful take ons than Walcott per min, and was top 5 in the entire league last season for it. I'm sorry if facts offend what you reckon from watching, maybe you need to watch closer if you are so far away from the truth.

Edited 15 November, 2020 by TWar

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, TWar said:

Walcott has been good, not denying that, I'd even say better than Redmond with his end product and linking of play coupled with his desire to track back. This is likely why he is currently getting the nod over Redmond. It is, however, objectively wrong to say Walcott "runs directly at players" and Redmond doesn't when Redmond objectively has more take on attempts than Walcott per min, more successful take ons than Walcott per min, and was top 5 in the entire league last season for it. I'm sorry if facts offend what you reckon from watching, maybe you need to watch closer if you are so far away from the truth.

I think you’ll find I quite rate redmond and your stats as proof of redmond Effectiveness don’t offend me, they simply prove my point there is a difference between understanding what happens on the pitch v what understanding what happens on a statistics report

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I think you’ll find I quite rate redmond and your stats as proof of redmond Effectiveness don’t offend me, they simply prove my point there is a difference between understanding what happens on the pitch v what understanding what happens on a statistics report

Anecdotes over evidence, gotcha.

[Mosin]

33 minutes ago, TWar said:

Walcott has been good, not denying that, I'd even say better than Redmond with his end product and linking of play coupled with his desire to track back. This is likely why he is currently getting the nod over Redmond. It is, however, objectively wrong to say Walcott "runs directly at players" and Redmond doesn't when Redmond objectively has more take on attempts than Walcott per min, more successful take ons than Walcott per min, and was top 5 in the entire league last season for it. I'm sorry if facts offend what you reckon from watching, maybe you need to watch closer if you are so far away from the truth.

i think it has some thing to do with end product, not so much who dribbles the best.


 

Edited 15 November, 2020 by Mosin

[Turkish]

8 hours ago, TWar said:

Anecdotes over evidence, gotcha.

As a wise man once said if football was played on spreadsheets all they’d have to give messi is an microsoft account

Edited 16 November, 2020 by Turkish

[verlaine1979]

32 minutes ago, TWar said:

Walcott has been good, not denying that, I'd even say better than Redmond with his quality in the final third and linking of play coupled with his desire to track back. This is likely why he is currently getting the nod over Redmond. It is, however, objectively wrong to say Walcott "runs directly at players" and Redmond doesn't when Redmond objectively has more take on attempts than Walcott per min, more successful take ons than Walcott per min, and was top 5 in the entire league last season for it. I'm sorry if facts offend what you reckon from watching, maybe you need to watch closer if you are so far away from the truth.

I'd be interested to see a map of where Redmond's take-on attempts occur on the pitch. My guess would be most of it is around the half way line or immediately after throw ins, when he's quite good at shifting the ball around a defender from a standing start. He's much less effective when carrying the ball over distances bigger than 5-10 yards, especially when pace is involved (as, contrary to forum wisdom, he's not got much straight line speed).

[hypochondriac]

9 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

So far he's been positive, but "great" is a stretch and it's only been 2 games. Let's see what his overall contribution has been in 5 or so games.

Hence why I said "thus far" and "great person."

[Pickles]

Would love to sign him no doubt, and you can just see how much he loves being a Saint again

[StrangelyBrown]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Hence why I said "thus far" and "great person."

And I was explaining why "thus far" don't think he's a "great person". Positive so far, but there is a lot in his game that could be better - e.g. second half against villa where his lack of tracking back (fitness?) / work against the ball helped let villa back into the game (I'm not saying he was the only one). Having said that he adjusting to a completely new way of playing so I'm not going to judge him either way yet.

I do worry that someone who has been accused of not having a football brain may not be up to it, but so far I've been pleasantly surprised.

[Verbal]

17 hours ago, TWar said:

Anecdotes over evidence, gotcha.

False binary.  Enough 'anecdotes' can add up to evidence.  And evidence isn't equal simply to statistics.  That would be reductive.  The English language gives us the words 'qualitative' and 'quantitive'.  Both can add up to evidence, and one form doesn't necessarily have greater weight than the other.  

[Saint86]

He's a class player that sits at a good level for the team and squad.

Add to that the fact that you can wait decades to find players with his level of passion for the club, and what exactly is there to not like?

[Jonnyboy]

6 hours ago, Verbal said:

False binary.  Enough 'anecdotes' can add up to evidence.  And evidence isn't equal simply to statistics.  That would be reductive.  The English language gives us the words 'qualitative' and 'quantitive'.  Both can add up to evidence, and one form doesn't necessarily have greater weight than the other.  

Except quantitative does have greater weight. 

[Verbal]

16 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Except quantitative does have greater weight. 

Nope.  Read Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow.  Standard qualitative and quantitive methods are examples of 'fast thinking', and are prone to errors and unconscious biases.  'Slow thinking' takes too much time to explain, ironically, but it's worth reading (he won a Nobel for these ideas). 

Bringing this back to Walcott, there's no intrinsic reason to give less weight to Turkish's analysis than to the 'statistical' approach.  Quantitive doesn't trump qualitative.