Squad Capacity 2020-21

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

In the last few seasons I seem to remember that discussions about new signings and players being sold or sent on loan were influenced by the limitations on EPL squad sizes - especially with some of our younger players getting to an age where they count in the statistics.

So, can anyone outline where we are at in relation to this for the coming season? 

(Including allowing for Forster, McQueen, Sims, Reed, Elynoussi, etc. as well as our recent transfer dealings and the release of Cedric and Yoshida).

[SuperSAINT]

9 minutes ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

In the last few seasons I seem to remember that discussions about new signings and players being sold or sent on loan were influenced by the limitations on EPL squad sizes - especially with some of our younger players getting to an age where they count in the statistics.

So, can anyone outline where we are at in relation to this for the coming season? 

(Including allowing for Forster, McQueen, Sims, Reed, Elynoussi, etc. as well as our recent transfer dealings and the release of Cedric and Yoshida).

@Over land and sea

[Chewy]

Thanks to olas’s excellent contract thread, I reckon we sit at 29 players that count as over 21 (or rather, not under 21 ... in case MLT is around).

Of these, 1 is on loan for the season, and one until January giving us 27 currently. So we need to shift 2 to have the right number, more if we want to recruit more. 

Looking at some of those in the 27 (4 goalkeepers, hoedt, Lemina, Carrillo, reed, sims, Boufal, McQueen, Hesketh, Jones) I’d be amazed if we don’t shift more so don’t see it being an issue.

Edited 13 August, 2020 by Chewy
Hesketh, not heskey

[Over land and sea]

14 hours ago, Chewy said:

Thanks to olas’s excellent contract thread, I reckon we sit at 29 players that count as over 21 (or rather, not under 21 ... in case MLT is around).

Of these, 1 is on loan for the season, and one until January giving us 27 currently. So we need to shift 2 to have the right number, more if we want to recruit more. 

Looking at some of those in the 27 (4 goalkeepers, hoedt, Lemina, Carrillo, reed, sims, Boufal, McQueen, Hesketh, Jones) I’d be amazed if we don’t shift more so don’t see it being an issue.

I agree - 29 players with 2 already out on loan, 1 of which is a season loan.  So with loans and even a couple of sales, we should comfortably be below the 25 player limit, as were in January.

It's actually 5 keepers in the 27: McCarthy, Gunn, Lewis, Forster and Latham, so probably 2 of them will move before the season starts.

For the folowing season (21-22) Salisu, Valery, N'Lundulu, Tella and O'Connor will no longer qualify as U21.  But by then Latham, Jones, Bertrand, McQueen, O'Connor, Romeu, Reed, Johnson, Hesketh, Sims, Boufal and Carillo will all be out of contract (as things stand) - I can see that several of them are unlikely to be extended.

[VectisSaint]

21 minutes ago, Over land and sea said:

It's actually 5 keepers in the 27: McCarthy, Gunn, Lewis, Forster and Latham, so probably 2 of them will move before the season starts.

For the folowing season (21-22) Salisu, Valery, N'Lundulu, Tella and O'Connor will no longer qualify as U21.  But by then Latham, Jones, Bertrand, McQueen, O'Connor, Romeu, Reed, Johnson, Hesketh, Sims, Boufal and Carillo will all be out of contract (as things stand) - I can see that several of them are unlikely to be extended.

Bear in mind the decision to go for a B Team for next season. Exactly what this means is open to question, but it does suggest that some over 21s will be maintained but not included in the First Team squad. I would imagine Latham especially will fit into this category. There is no prospect of him being in the PL squad, but he has been given a contract until next year. Of course he can still play in PL2. Strangely he doesn't even appear on the OS site under any of the teams, had quite forgotten about him until you mentioned him in your post. Cull and Scott still qualify as u21s for next year, think these three will be the B team keepers. If Forster cannot be shifted then I would think that Harry Lewis will get loaned out.

[Over land and sea]

Latham is missing from the OS profiles because he was on loan last season.  And Cull has been released.  I assume Bycroft will be the 3rd B team keeper

I wouldn't pay any attention to the OS profiles, particularly for the U23s and U18s - there are other sites with much more accurate information.  More generally the OS's coverage of the U18s and U23s is patchy.  We released several players at the end of their contract in June but the OS did not even acknowledge that we had done so and most are still listed in the profiles  (the only ones that aren't are those that weren't listed anyway because they were out on loan).  Several players have been offered new contracts but again no news on the OS. 

The profiles need a lot of updates.  The released players (Barnes, Cull, Norton, Kozak and others) and end of loan players (Maddox, Danso) need to be removed; Salisu, most of last season's loaned out players and the new season scholars need to be added. Last year's second year scholars need to be moved up to the U23s. The way the site deals with loaned players is random - sometimes they continue to list the loaned out player in the squad (e.g. Klarer, Johnson) but mostly not - there is no logic. Last year it was well into the autumn before the squad was updated for the new season so I don't hold out much hope this year when everything is starting so much later.

[Saint_clark]

Surely it doesn't matter what we actually call our "reserves" side, whether it's under 23s or B team, if they're playing in the PL2 then they're still governed by the same rules on the amount of overage players you can use and therefore nothing will actually change one regards to how many players we can actually have? 

[Over land and sea]

10 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Surely it doesn't matter what we actually call our "reserves" side, whether it's under 23s or B team, if they're playing in the PL2 then they're still governed by the same rules on the amount of overage players you can use and therefore nothing will actually change one regards to how many players we can actually have? 

Yes, I'm struggling to see an actual difference given there are no eligibility changes as far as I'm aware

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, Over land and sea said:

Yes, I'm struggling to see an actual difference given there are no eligibility changes as far as I'm aware

I'm struggling as well, but it could be that some players who are over 21 might be designated as B team players rather than having to register them as PL players. It is certainly plausible for positions where development takes longer, goalkeepers being a good example generally. Of course the club can play these players under the existing criteria (though we haven't much in recent seasons) but this could be a way of explicitly saying these players are here to develop and be involved in the B team for now rather than pushing them now into the first team or sending them out on loan. I don't know, just speculating. The strict age group thing really doesn't work well across the board. 

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, Over land and sea said:

Latham is missing from the OS profiles because he was on loan last season.  And Cull has been released.  I assume Bycroft will be the 3rd B team keeper

I wouldn't pay any attention to the OS profiles, particularly for the U23s and U18s - there are other sites with much more accurate information.  More generally the OS's coverage of the U18s and U23s is patchy.  We released several players at the end of their contract in June but the OS did not even acknowledge that we had done so and most are still listed in the profiles  (the only ones that aren't are those that weren't listed anyway because they were out on loan).  Several players have been offered new contracts but again no news on the OS. 

The profiles need a lot of updates.  The released players (Barnes, Cull, Norton, Kozak and others) and end of loan players (Maddox, Danso) need to be removed; Salisu, most of last season's loaned out players and the new season scholars need to be added. Last year's second year scholars need to be moved up to the U23s. The way the site deals with loaned players is random - sometimes they continue to list the loaned out player in the squad (e.g. Klarer, Johnson) but mostly not - there is no logic. Last year it was well into the autumn before the squad was updated for the new season so I don't hold out much hope this year when everything is starting so much later.

Forgot that Cull had been released, but agree about the OS, its really piss poor, it should be the source of information about the Club. There's actually been almost nothing about the U23 or U18s written or reported since their leagues were suspended. No information about what is happening for the upcoming season, perhaps the web team genuinely don't know. Really totally useless.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

Thanks for the clarification on this - glad to hear that it is not likely to be a problem. However, on the basis that we have got 27 squad players at present I guess that does still pose questions about which players we will ship out this summer - whether by selling them, releasing them or loaning them.

Just a quick look at some other threads, together with what has been mentioned above, gives me some idea what our squad currently looks like. However, I have ended up with 29 players not 27! Can someone tell me where I have got this wrong?:

Goalkeepers: 5 - McCarthy, Gunn, Lewis, Forster, Latham

Defenders: 9 - Walker-Peters, Salisu, Bednarek, Stephens, Vestergaard, Hoedt, Bertrand, McQueen, Jones

Midfield/Wing: 11 - JWP, Romeu, Armstrong, Redmond, Djneppo, Reed, Boufal, Sims, Hesketh, Elynoussi, Lemina

Strikers: 4 - Ings, Adams, Long, Carillo

Players who are under age but have appeared in the first team (or on the bench) by my estimation are: Valery, Obafemi, Smallbone, Vokins, Tella, N'Lundulu, Johnson, Ramsey, Slattery

To trim the squad to 25 or less we would need to get rid of at least four - more if we buy anyone else. Like you have all said, though, this seems to be fairly straightforward with a choice of any or all of the following likely to be elsewhere in the forthcoming season:

Forster, Hoedt, Elynoussi, Lemina, Carillo, Sims, Hesketh, Jones, Latham, Lewis

I haven't included McQueen in the list of those that will end up elsewhere on the basis that he will need to complete his recovery from injury and show that he can get back up to full speed and fitness before any other club is likely to take a look at him; and personally I would be delighted for him to make a full recovery and to begin to challenge for a place in the first team squad.

Edited 15 August, 2020 by SaintJackoInHurworth
Forgot to include Lewis and Latham as players who could potentially be loaned out or sold/released

[Chewy]

From your 29 you’ve counted elyonoussi who is on loan to Celtic again this season, and Salisu who actually counts as under 21 (I didn’t realise he was quite that young either). 
With five keepers we’d reach 25 players just reducing that to 3, but I’d be surprised if any of Sims, Hesketh, Hoedt, Lemina or Carrillo we’re here come the end of the transfer window, and a bit surprised if Jones, McQueen (depending on injury), Boufal, Reed or Vesti were. Of course, the last 2, probably 3 would need replacing I assume but we should have plenty of space.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

7 minutes ago, Chewy said:

From your 29 you’ve counted elyonoussi who is on loan to Celtic again this season, and Salisu who actually counts as under 21 (I didn’t realise he was quite that young either). 
With five keepers we’d reach 25 players just reducing that to 3, but I’d be surprised if any of Sims, Hesketh, Hoedt, Lemina or Carrillo we’re here come the end of the transfer window, and a bit surprised if Jones, McQueen (depending on injury), Boufal, Reed or Vesti were. Of course, the last 2, probably 3 would need replacing I assume but we should have plenty of space.

Ah! Thanks - so it's actually 28, but one of those has already been loaned out. That all makes sense now.

So, hopefully this means that simply selling one or two players should open up the possibility for at least one more signing.

I imagine that whether or not we sign anyone else, Hassenhuttl will want to reduce the squad as much as possible beyond what he sees as key players. I remember him saying when he became our manager that he likes to work with tighter, smaller squads.

[Over land and sea]

On 14/08/2020 at 12:01, Over land and sea said:

I agree - 29 players with 2 already out on loan, 1 of which is a season loan.  So with loans and even a couple of sales, we should comfortably be below the 25 player limit, as were in January.

It's actually 5 keepers in the 27: McCarthy, Gunn, Lewis, Forster and Latham, so probably 2 of them will move before the season starts.

For the folowing season (21-22) Salisu, Valery, N'Lundulu, Tella and O'Connor will no longer qualify as U21.  But by then Latham, Jones, Bertrand, McQueen, O'Connor, Romeu, Reed, Johnson, Hesketh, Sims, Boufal and Carillo will all be out of contract (as things stand) - I can see that several of them are unlikely to be extended.

A correction to my final paragraph: Slattery and Scott will also no longer qualify as U21 after the coming season.  So, assuming no departures or arrivals in the over 21 group, by the end of the season the number of over 21s will rise from 29 to 36 ( with 6 'keepers!) but with at least 12 of the 36 currently due to be out of contract next summer - possibly as many as 14, depending on what length deals Scott and Lewis have signed.

Edited 30 August, 2020 by Over land and sea

[SuperSAINT]

Not really related, but kind of related... Heard on the grapevine that the 2020/21 scholars will be announced tomorrow. 

[Dusic]

26 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

Not really related, but kind of related... Heard on the grapevine that the 2020/21 scholars will be announced tomorrow. 

Wonder if J-Rod2 will be in that list?!

Also, seeing as the likes of Sims, Hesketh, O'Connor, Jones etc are clearly not in first team contention, I hope we can sell them, even if cheap and with sell on clause, rather than loaning. Most are OOC next summer anyway so we would get hardly anything then (probs just a training fee).

[SuperSAINT]

2 hours ago, Dusic said:

Wonder if J-Rod2 will be in that list?!

Also, seeing as the likes of Sims, Hesketh, O'Connor, Jones etc are clearly not in first team contention, I hope we can sell them, even if cheap and with sell on clause, rather than loaning. Most are OOC next summer anyway so we would get hardly anything then (probs just a training fee).

Ah, yes! Hopefully the J-Rod2 mystery will be solved (One way or another) tomorrow.

Agreed on some of the others.  There’s not much cash down there so big sell-on’s make sense.  Good to see Klarer get minutes yesterday. 

Big picture of the academy will be interesting to see if Ralph’s iBook changes make a difference. 

[SuperSAINT]

On 30/08/2020 at 08:52, SuperSAINT said:

Not really related, but kind of related... Heard on the grapevine that the 2020/21 scholars will be announced tomorrow. 

I retire my ITK status  

[S-Clarke]

Just now, SuperSAINT said:

I retire my ITK status  

#ITKwatch