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Saints 'B' Team

SuperSAINT

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  • 2 weeks later...
woodsaint1

woodsaint1

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Remember the excitement on the Orsic signing thread. No doubt theres a very good player in there given his exploits in the CL and on the international stage. But it reflects badly on our recruitment team that we signed somebody who doesnt seem ready for the PL nor a good fit for our style of play.

Jones got widely criticised for not playing him and now Selles isnt playing him either. There must be an underlying fitness issue or an inability to grasp our press and style of play. Hopefully he'll return to the first team fold and prove his worth, but early signs are not good

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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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Its a bit concerning that the B team seems to have gone to shit in the last few weeks. Admittedly Blackburn are in Division 1, but they are near the bottom of the table. I can only assume that the downturn in form is due to coaching resources being moved to the First Team (of course the 1st Team is rightly the priority), but we really needed to get the B team promoted back to Division 1 for next season, so that they are able to compete with the best reserve sides.

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JRM

JRM

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10 hours ago, woodsaint1 said:

Remember the excitement on the Orsic signing thread. No doubt theres a very good player in there given his exploits in the CL and on the international stage. But it reflects badly on our recruitment team that we signed somebody who doesnt seem ready for the PL nor a good fit for our style of play.

Jones got widely criticised for not playing him and now Selles isnt playing him either. There must be an underlying fitness issue or an inability to grasp our press and style of play. Hopefully he'll return to the first team fold and prove his worth, but early signs are not good

Reminds me of Forren.

I think there is a real possibility the Croatian mafia involved at Zagreb have pulled off a hustle, taken our 6M and sent us a look a like, the real player is currently in a remote villa. Once Saints send back the player in a cut price deal he'll then be released and go back to playing for Zagreb 

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SuperSAINT

SuperSAINT

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9 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

It’s a bit concerning that the B team seems to have gone to shit in the last few weeks. Admittedly Blackburn are in Division 1, but they are near the bottom of the table. I can only assume that the downturn in form is due to coaching resources being moved to the First Team (of course the 1st Team is rightly the priority), but we really needed to get the B team promoted back to Division 1 for next season, so that they are able to compete with the best reserve sides.

No idea what happened last night, but we lost to Leeds 2 weeks ago (probably the best team in the league).

Lost to Forest last week, who were 3rd but was an absolute joke of from the league to play that with our schedule last week.

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david in sweden

david in sweden

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9 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

Its a bit concerning that the B team seems to have gone to shit in the last few weeks. Admittedly Blackburn are in Division 1, but they are near the bottom of the table. I can only assume that the downturn in form is due to coaching resources being moved to the First Team (of course the 1st Team is rightly the priority), but we really needed to get the B team promoted back to Division 1 for next season, so that they are able to compete with the best reserve sides.

Agree with the sentiment Vectis, but there are several factors that have caused this. We are talking about a squad that has been brilliant in the first half of the season.

but some of our best B teamers went out on loan in January (to play some " men's football ") Payne, Small, Finnegan and Lawrence - all defenders are away.

Up front, Morgan has disappeared off to Chelsea, and goalscorers Pearce and Turner are also out on loan and many places are filled with lads from the U18's.

 

Although one might think that putting some experienced heads ( Bree, Lyanco and Orsic) on the pitch might help it has had the opposite effect, as they are

not used to playing the same formations and the regular squad youngsters are not used to playing alongside new faces - regardless of their background.

 

 

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JRM

JRM

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11 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

Agree with the sentiment Vectis, but there are several factors that have caused this. We are talking about a squad that has been brilliant in the first half of the season.

but some of our best B teamers went out on loan in January (to play some " men's football ") Payne, Small, Finnegan and Lawrence - all defenders are away.

Up front, Morgan has disappeared off to Chelsea, and goalscorers Pearce and Turner are also out on loan and many places are filled with lads from the U18's.

 

Although one might think that putting some experienced heads ( Bree, Lyanco and Orsic) on the pitch might help it has had the opposite effect, as they are

not used to playing the same formations and the regular squad youngsters are not used to playing alongside new faces - regardless of their background.

 

 

All correct, plus many of our better B team players qualify to play for u18s so the FA Youth Cup took priority in the week of the Forest game where we won away to Preston in 1/4 final night before 

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Charlie Wayman

Charlie Wayman

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Posted (edited)

The role of the B team seems to be in transition. League position and results seem to be increasingly of secondary importance to keeping first team squad players match fit when they are not being selected regularly for the first team. This is very much like the "reserves" system of old.

At the same time the role of the B team in the development of Academy youngsters seems to be diminishing. The Academy spotlight seems to be very much on the U-18's now with promising kids either going out on loan as the next step of their progression to experience 'real' football or even jumping straight onto the first team bench.

Edited by Charlie Wayman
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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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2 hours ago, david in sweden said:

Agree with the sentiment Vectis, but there are several factors that have caused this. We are talking about a squad that has been brilliant in the first half of the season.

but some of our best B teamers went out on loan in January (to play some " men's football ") Payne, Small, Finnegan and Lawrence - all defenders are away.

Up front, Morgan has disappeared off to Chelsea, and goalscorers Pearce and Turner are also out on loan and many places are filled with lads from the U18's.

 

Although one might think that putting some experienced heads ( Bree, Lyanco and Orsic) on the pitch might help it has had the opposite effect, as they are

not used to playing the same formations and the regular squad youngsters are not used to playing alongside new faces - regardless of their background.

 

 

Payne and Small went out on loan after form dipped (18/27 Jan), true about Finnigan and Lawrence. Thierry Small had only appeared a few times (while he was on loan at Port Vale), he wasn't really a major factor in the top form we had shown in 22. My point anyway, was not really about players, more to do with the coaching, with Horseman involved to some extent now with the first team, and effectively with the club being 3 coaches short of where we were in January (the Luton staff), is the B team not being supported in the way it was. Its perfectly understandable if it is the case, but with Selles being appointed manager, is the club short staffed at the moment, compromising the B team, it has to be a priority (not the highest of course) to get the Reserves back to Division 1 to provide proper opposition, instead of Division 2 which has become a bit mickey mouse with teams withdrawing, unless of course the club knows that perhaps the PL2 will be restructured next season to take account of the reduction in competing teams. It surprises me that the Club have not recruited some more coaches to fill the vacancies, Selles really needs an (experienced) assistant, no slight intended on Martin and Gross.

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spyinthesky

spyinthesky

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18 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

Its a bit concerning that the B team seems to have gone to shit in the last few weeks. Admittedly Blackburn are in Division 1, but they are near the bottom of the table. I can only assume that the downturn in form is due to coaching resources being moved to the First Team (of course the 1st Team is rightly the priority), but we really needed to get the B team promoted back to Division 1 for next season, so that they are able to compete with the best reserve sides.

Apparently Blackburn fielded a wakened side as some of their better players were in the squad for the game at Stoke

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  • 2 weeks later...
JRM

JRM

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On 17/03/2023 at 21:22, Pilchards said:

Injured I believe.

Any news on his injury? We've got West Ham away in FA Youth Cup semi final in a few days , could do with Ballard for that 

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david in sweden

david in sweden

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On 11/03/2023 at 12:19, VectisSaint said:

Payne and Small went out on loan after form dipped (18/27 Jan), true about Finnigan and Lawrence. Thierry Small had only appeared a few times (while he was on loan at Port Vale), he wasn't really a major factor in the top form we had shown in 22. My point anyway, was not really about players, more to do with the coaching, with Horseman involved to some extent now with the first team, and effectively with the club being 3 coaches short of where we were in January (the Luton staff), is the B team not being supported in the way it was. Its perfectly understandable if it is the case, but with Selles being appointed manager, is the club short staffed at the moment, compromising the B team, it has to be a priority (not the highest of course) to get the Reserves back to Division 1 to provide proper opposition, instead of Division 2 which has become a bit mickey mouse with teams withdrawing, unless of course the club knows that perhaps the PL2 will be restructured next season to take account of the reduction in competing teams. It surprises me that the Club have not recruited some more coaches to fill the vacancies, Selles really needs an (experienced) assistant, no slight intended on Martin and Gross.

Recruiting ..(the most difficult task in any profession)... is hard because at that age a lot of people can claim to be " successful " but at Academy level

the " right man " needs to be a good role model who can relate to a teenage mindset, and not have a " sergeant major / dictator personality ".

Dave Horseman did  a great job with the current U18 / B squads,  are almost interchangeable and Horseman is now working with Selles and the Prem.squad.

 

Our luck during this last two seasons is that many of the newly-recruited Academy U18's have been with the club since 8 year olds and played together for

a long period, and the fact that they are still here is proof of the successes in that mid range age group (9-15).   These lads will have worked with the same 

coaches through the age-groups and  be well-acquainted with them, so it's hardly " a problem "  in the short-term so close to the end of season.

We have also signed well from other Academies.  Meghoma and Amo-Ameyan from Spurs, and Armitage from Cheltenham have fitted in well and some of

the previous crop are already out on loan whilst still in their teens. It will be interesting to see which of the loanees will return next season and come into

the B team / Prem. squads and those who may eventually find themselves a contract with lower league clubs, and work their way up.

 

Whilst I agree that we need to replace those coaches who have left the club, we really need to get " the right people ",  and if it takes a bit longer to be

able to identify them...then I think it will be time well-spent and good preparation in time for next season.

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JRM

JRM

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5 hours ago, petermcpete said:

He's done his hamstring and will miss the semi final, from what I heard yesterday

Real shame,  in the earlier rounds  Ballard and Morgan were strongest players and now have neither 

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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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10 hours ago, david in sweden said:

Recruiting ..(the most difficult task in any profession)... is hard because at that age a lot of people can claim to be " successful " but at Academy level

the " right man " needs to be a good role model who can relate to a teenage mindset, and not have a " sergeant major / dictator personality ".

Dave Horseman did  a great job with the current U18 / B squads,  are almost interchangeable and Horseman is now working with Selles and the Prem.squad.

 

Our luck during this last two seasons is that many of the newly-recruited Academy U18's have been with the club since 8 year olds and played together for

a long period, and the fact that they are still here is proof of the successes in that mid range age group (9-15).   These lads will have worked with the same 

coaches through the age-groups and  be well-acquainted with them, so it's hardly " a problem "  in the short-term so close to the end of season.

We have also signed well from other Academies.  Meghoma and Amo-Ameyan from Spurs, and Armitage from Cheltenham have fitted in well and some of

the previous crop are already out on loan whilst still in their teens. It will be interesting to see which of the loanees will return next season and come into

the B team / Prem. squads and those who may eventually find themselves a contract with lower league clubs, and work their way up.

 

Whilst I agree that we need to replace those coaches who have left the club, we really need to get " the right people ",  and if it takes a bit longer to be

able to identify them...then I think it will be time well-spent and good preparation in time for next season.

You seem to be ignoring the need for the B team to win promotion, another season in PL2 Div 2 is likely to be a disaster, and since I posted my message nearly 4 weeks ago nothing has changed as far as I can see. By the way I don't think Horseman was ever involved with the U18s. Its quite clear that the B team has been very much an after thought this (calendar) year since the new manager debacle. I understand the logic, but it is going to hurt in the long term unless we can win promotion through the play-off (or PL2 gets restructured as I suspect it might).

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woodsaint1

woodsaint1

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2 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

You seem to be ignoring the need for the B team to win promotion, another season in PL2 Div 2 is likely to be a disaster, and since I posted my message nearly 4 weeks ago nothing has changed as far as I can see. By the way I don't think Horseman was ever involved with the U18s. Its quite clear that the B team has been very much an after thought this (calendar) year since the new manager debacle. I understand the logic, but it is going to hurt in the long term unless we can win promotion through the play-off (or PL2 gets restructured as I suspect it might).

Being in the Championship next season might be worse

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david in sweden

david in sweden

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

You seem to be ignoring the need for the B team to win promotion, another season in PL2 Div 2 is likely to be a disaster, and since I posted my message nearly 4 weeks ago nothing has changed as far as I can see. By the way I don't think Horseman was ever involved with the U18s. Its quite clear that the B team has been very much an after thought this (calendar) year since the new manager debacle. I understand the logic, but it is going to hurt in the long term unless we can win promotion through the play-off (or PL2 gets restructured as I suspect it might).

Like you ( Vectis)  I try to analyse all the factors, although I certainly haven't ignored the real need to see the B team promoted this year. 

The B team had been on an excellent run until they hicupped with the home defeats against Leeds and Forest.  It seemed to be an "unfortunate coincidence"  that we had let  5 of the  B team regulars (Payne, Small, Simeu, Finnegan, Lawrence - all defenders)  go out on loan at the end January,      at the same time we still had Sam Bellis injured we also lost  Morgan to Chelsea and saw strikers Pearce and Turner go out in loan, and the emergency       " import " of first-teamers  McCarthy, Bree, Aribo and Edozie  showed no obvious  advantage at all in the Leeds defeat which (all things considered)      was a bad defeat.

 

The catastrophic loss in the Cup v Blackburn was a similar example where the inclusion of  Bree, Lyanco and Orsic  made things look even worse,             

whilst the remainder of the outfield was composed of 6 U18's lads, some of whom made their U18 debuts - with fairly predictable results. 

I don't see the change of coaching personnel, to be a major factor in the short term, but sometimes you can play well and still lose and it may have been

down to " a bad day"  at the same time as you have enforced changes in key positions.   Saints have one of the youngest squads in the Prem. and with

a dozen or so in " the usual U21  age group "  already out on loan elsewhere this is reflected in the advancement of younger players in the other groups.  

Fortunately the two recent wins have put us back on track for the title, and  I look forward to seeing this young squad move up a level next season.

Edited by david in sweden
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