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Ryan Bertrand


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  • 2 weeks later...

Ryan has been poor recently. He has also been injured recently. He looked like his legs had gone on Saturday. I have heard ex pros say before your legs just go, instantly, no warning. It could also be that he has been taking one for the team and playing through injury, where he would be rested if we had anything like adequate cover. Anyone got any clues regarding to his fitness?

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23 hours ago, davefizzy14 said:

Ryan was outstanding tonight, great pass from him for Danny's goal :) 100% have to get him tied down on a new contract.

Quite so and bear in mind he had to keep a weather eye on Salisu for most of the evening as well. It was noticeable that as his confidence in the debutant increased so he was able to get forward more and more in the second half. That is part of his game that many do not acknowledge and of course our central defenders have not been that dependable of late which has limited the freedom that Bertie has had to go roaming down the wing.

Edited by Charlie Wayman
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14 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Quite so and bear in mind he had to keep a weather eye on Salisu for most of the evening as well. It was noticeable that as his confidence in the debutant increased so he was able to get forward more and more in the second half. That is part of his game that many do not acknowledge and of course our central defenders have not been that dependable of late which has limited the freedom that Bertie has had to go roaming down the wing.

Spot on.

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“Southampton’s shocking league form, which is on stark contrast to Leicester’s, is also believed to be a major contributing factor in the defender’s decision to stall on committing to a new deal.”

 

If true, he’s taking the fucking piss. His fucking half arsed performances are a “contributing factor” in our shocking league form. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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Just my opinion, but of course he'll be off this summer.  He'll get a massive signing on fee from whoever he joins if he has no contract.  Big pay day and possible European / Champions League football, or stay his with a team who's chairman doesn't have a pot to p/ss in going backwards with no investment?  Same with Ings, and we know Brendon loves a Southampton Player!

 

But just my opinion.

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I think he has already started the inevitable decline in quality when players get to a certain age, and we have already seen the best of Bertrand. The problem is any recruit we get is likely to be not as good as a slowly waning Bertrand. A proven younger replacement is probably out of our ability to pay, so we will be on the hit and hope part of the spectrum.

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38 minutes ago, Mystic Force said:

I think he has already started the inevitable decline in quality when players get to a certain age, and we have already seen the best of Bertrand. The problem is any recruit we get is likely to be not as good as a slowly waning Bertrand. A proven younger replacement is probably out of our ability to pay, so we will be on the hit and hope part of the spectrum.

That’s a pretty sad indictment of our recruitment and I’d like to believe it’s not true. There are plenty of decent young players out there not getting game time at bigger clubs. In the past we’ve done very well out of the likes of Bertrand, KWP, Romeu, Hojbjerg and Cork. There must be a player out there somewhere who is an improvement on a declining, slowing Bertrand.

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3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That’s a pretty sad indictment of our recruitment and I’d like to believe it’s not true. There are plenty of decent young players out there not getting game time at bigger clubs. In the past we’ve done very well out of the likes of Bertrand, KWP, Romeu, Hojbjerg and Cork. There must be a player out there somewhere who is an improvement on a declining, slowing Bertrand.

For a period of time we had an information advantage over our rivals and were able to capitalize. Wenger used this same fact when he had a successful Arsenal team, he brought in great players from an overlooked French League using his knowledge of it to get an advantage. That information we achieved either through the first to having a "black box" or because of Paul Mitchel individual talent is no longer our exclusive edge. Any of those types of players are now on everyone's radar and the price goes beyond our means, leaving us taking chances on less certain prospects. We have seen the consequence of that fact all too readily in our loans out. Due to the upset in football financing there will be some distortions in the market, as players leaving clubs might not be offered the pay day they might have otherwise expected.

I have been wary of the vaunted black box after reading an interview talking about the acquisition of Shane Long as an example of how they used it. To think that singing a mediocre striker from a succession of relegation threatened clubs was a good deal. It did not look like wizardry to me, but rather they had called up an "expert" who scouted him on FM and said his running around stat was amazing!

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4 minutes ago, Mystic Force said:

For a period of time we had an information advantage over our rivals and were able to capitalize. Wenger used this same fact when he had a successful Arsenal team, he brought in great players from an overlooked French League using his knowledge of it to get an advantage. That information we achieved either through the first to having a "black box" or because of Paul Mitchel individual talent is no longer our exclusive edge. Any of those types of players are now on everyone's radar and the price goes beyond our means, leaving us taking chances on less certain prospects. We have seen the consequence of that fact all too readily in our loans out. Due to the upset in football financing there will be some distortions in the market, as players leaving clubs might not be offered the pay day they might have otherwise expected.

I have been wary of the vaunted black box after reading an interview talking about the acquisition of Shane Long as an example of how they used it. To think that singing a mediocre striker from a succession of relegation threatened clubs was a good deal. It did not look like wizardry to me, but rather they had called up an "expert" who scouted him on FM and said his running around stat was amazing!

The whole black box thing is just a myth. Plenty of clubs have been using data analysis software to analyse players for years, we just had a period of generally good recruitment out of it; let’s not forget that we also churned out Osvaldo, Mayuka, Long (as you said), Gazzaniga and Forren in that period of time. We’ve had periods of good recruitment long before any of that too. Around the turn of the millennium we brought in Beattie, Pahars, Anders, Niemi, Tessem and Killer, despite being hampered by the Dell ‘s capacity and not having the black box.

 

Being short term and reactive has never worked out well, like when we failed to replace our ageing defence in the lead up to 2005 and ended up with a bloated squad full of substandard stop gaps.

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I think the recruitment team ended up buying in to their own hype and overlooked those players of the same time that were misses you pointed out above. I suspect that those earlier waves were down to an individual of above average ability at spotting and acquiring talent and those troubled patches times when they thought they had "a system".

Back on topic, with no likely prospects coming through the youth ranks we will be signing a new LB and hope that it sticks

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On 22/02/2021 at 15:59, Lighthouse said:

That’s a pretty sad indictment of our recruitment and I’d like to believe it’s not true. There are plenty of decent young players out there not getting game time at bigger clubs. In the past we’ve done very well out of the likes of Bertrand, KWP, Romeu, Hojbjerg and Cork. There must be a player out there somewhere who is an improvement on a declining, slowing Bertrand.

Considering all three of our summer signings appear to be better than the ones they are replacing in the squad then I’m fairly optimistic we can find a decent replacement. The problem will be we are skint and Bertrand leaving won’t generate any funds, so we will probably need to sell to buy, which we are expecting anyway. 

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2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Considering all three of our summer signings appear to be better than the ones they are replacing in the squad then I’m fairly optimistic we can find a decent replacement. The problem will be we are skint and Bertrand leaving won’t generate any funds, so we will probably need to sell to buy, which we are expecting anyway. 

Not to worry, from the 20M we get from Ings we'll need to buy a RB, 2x LB and a striker?

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I think his legs have gone to be honest. He's also one of the worst 'personalities' we have, in my opinion.

He is shit when the going gets tough, absolutely diabolical. 

What's worse now is that he's slower, weaker and generally not in games against decent attackers. We need to upgrade on him, not sign him up. I have a feeling the club have recognised that.

Edited by S-Clarke
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Just now, S-Clarke said:

I think his legs have gone to be honest. He's also one of the worst 'personalities' we have, in my opinion.

He is shit when the going gets tough, absolutely diabolical. 

What's worse now is that he's slower, weaker and generally not in games against decent attackers. We need to upgrade on him, not sign him up. I have a feeling the club have recognised that.

What's the betting he looks thoroughly rejuvenated on signing for Leicester next season ?

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I haven't rated him for about 2 years now. He slows us down and always looks for the easy back pass. He doesn't trust his pace and dribbling anymore. IMO it's a primary position we should be upgrading. Look how effective an energetic, dribbling full back can be in this system.

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His decline seems to have happened quite fast. I wonder if he's carrying a niggly injury which is hampering him because it really wasn't that long ago that he was up and down the pitch non stop, getting behind the full back and sticking crosses in.

Now he just seems to canter about without busting a gut. Still a decent, experienced pro but not sure he can cope with the physical expectations we put on the full backs.

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9 minutes ago, trousers said:

Is it me or does a decline in Bertrand's esprit de corps always coincide with a dip in the team's form? Chicken or Egg though...?

A lot of our attacking intent relies on full backs getting up and down the pitch, overlapping etc. 

With no KWP, the oppo know that nothing much is going to come down our right. They can then double down efforts on the left and nullify any sort of threat we may pose.

Add that to Bertrand clearly showing signs of decline, it doesn’t make for pretty viewing.

Not signing full back cover in the window is one of the single most bizarre decisions we’ve made for some time.

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15 hours ago, The Cat said:

His decline seems to have happened quite fast. I wonder if he's carrying a niggly injury which is hampering him because it really wasn't that long ago that he was up and down the pitch non stop, getting behind the full back and sticking crosses in.

Now he just seems to canter about without busting a gut. Still a decent, experienced pro but not sure he can cope with the physical expectations we put on the full backs.

He’s out of contract at the end of the season. Why would he want to risk serious injury,  when he’s yet to decide his future? I’m certainly not defending this, but it’s potentially the reason for his recent lacklustre displays. The same could apply to Ings. The club should never have allowed this situation to occur. FFS why did we not sign decent fullback cover in last two transfer windows?

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15 hours ago, The Cat said:

His decline seems to have happened quite fast. I wonder if he's carrying a niggly injury which is hampering him because it really wasn't that long ago that he was up and down the pitch non stop, getting behind the full back and sticking crosses in.

Now he just seems to canter about without busting a gut. Still a decent, experienced pro but not sure he can cope with the physical expectations we put on the full backs.

I don't think it has been that fast, it's just become increasingly noticeable to the point now where he is pretty awful. I used to love watching his wing play with Tadic and Redmond (whatever happened to him?), they used to create a lot of good delivery or runs into the box. Something we just don't do anymore.

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For what it is worth I think Ryan has been one of our very best all time Premier League players.  Has been consistently one of the country’s top full backs for seven seasons, played under five managers and has been undisputed first choice under all of them.  
 

Enjoy him while you can

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1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Okay, tonight has made my mind up, he just doesn’t have any burst of pace or intensity to his game any more. He’s been a wonderful player for us over the last 7 seasons but I’d happily let his contract expire in summer.

Sums up how I feel about him. One of my favourite players over the past few years, just not interested now. Not sure if that's like you say, his pace etc has gone or if it's something else. I know he stated that he wants to finish his career here, just wondering if the club have had a different opinion and have told him they won't renew on the terms he wants

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5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Okay, tonight has made my mind up, he just doesn’t have any burst of pace or intensity to his game any more. He’s been a wonderful player for us over the last 7 seasons but I’d happily let his contract expire in summer.

Yeah, I think he's lost what makes him a decent modern day wing back.

Probably decent enough in a team who play at a slower pace and don't rely on full back width, but I think his time is up in a team who requires the full backs to get forward quickly and support attacks. He's lost the pace, lost an intensity and doesn't have the same level of physicality to get up and down the pitch.

I don't want to discredit his contribution because he's been a fantastic servant for us, through all sorts of seasons. It's just a shame it's ending like this tbh, but I wish him all the best. Wonder if he'll end up abroad somewhere?

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11 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Okay, tonight has made my mind up, he just doesn’t have any burst of pace or intensity to his game any more. He’s been a wonderful player for us over the last 7 seasons but I’d happily let his contract expire in summer.

Yep, I've changed my mind in the last month or two.  Let him go to Leicester.  He has been a class act for the Club with those marauding overlap runs and pinpoint crosses - but it's a while since we saw them; perhaps he's no longer capable of making them!

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A multi millionaire who doesn't need to get hurt or even win games. Hunger gone and it is far too easy for him, especially with nobody pushing him.

He gets into some great positions but rarely finds the right ball, becoming lax in his defending duties as well.

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32 minutes ago, OldNick said:

A multi millionaire who doesn't need to get hurt or even win games. Hunger gone and it is far too easy for him, especially with nobody pushing him.

He gets into some great positions but rarely finds the right ball, becoming lax in his defending duties as well.

That's really not true. In the last few games he has still managed to set up the Minamino goal, throw in a cross against Wolves that Armstrong should have scored and  for all intents and purposes got the assist for Ings goal in the FA Cup. He has also played quite a few cute balls into the box that with some more in form players could have resulted in goals.

Has he slowed down? Signs look like yes. Is he getting enough into forward places. No.

But when he does, the one thing he does get right alot of the time is the ball into the box. In fact, right now he is probably our best player in getting dangerous balls in with the exception of JWP set pieces. Armstrong is closest, but he is better at making space, taking players on and firing the shot himself. 

Edited by sydney_saint
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4 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

That's really not true. In the last few games he has still managed to set up the Minamino goal, throw in a cross against Wolves that Armstrong should have scored and  for all intents and purposes got the assist for Ings goal in the FA Cup. He has also played quite a few cute balls into the box that with some more in form players could have resulted in goals.

Has he slowed down? Signs look like yes. Is he getting enough into forward places. No.

But when he does, the one thing he does get right alot of the time is the ball into the box. In fact, right now he is probably our best player in getting dangerous balls in with the exception of JWP set pieces. Armstrong is closest, but he is better at making space, taking players on and firing the shot himself. 

Good post and I agree. He's been a very good and consistent professional for us, and one who has stuck by the club when there has certainly been opportunities to aggravate for a move. Yes, i think he is slowing down. But I also think he's rarely caught out and i don't think you can attribute any specific blame to him for our current run. He also wants to commit his future to the club long term. You don't get many players happy to do that, and when they have the experience of someone like Bertrand, then you try to keep them IMO - I've actually lost count of the number of times i've seen saints fans moan over the years about the lack of quality ex players involved in the club.

Ultimately, I never quite understand why some fans are so eager, and want rid of, a loyal committed player, in this instance because he's getting a bit old? And yet, i'm sure some of them moan about absences of loyalty when other players move on!

Edited by Saint86
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10 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Good post and I agree. He's been a very good and consistent professional for us, and one who has stuck by the club when there has certainly been opportunities to aggravate for a move. Yes, i think he is slowing down. But I also think he's rarely caught out and i don't think you can attribute any specific blame to him for our current run. He also wants to commit his future to the club long term. You don't get many players happy to do that, and when they have the experience of someone like Bertrand, then you try to keep them IMO - I've actually lost count of the number of times i've seen saints fans moan over the years about the lack of quality ex players involved in the club.

Ultimately, I never quite understand why some fans are so eager want rid of a loyal committed player, in this instance because he's getting a bit old? And yet, i'm sure some of them moan about absences of loyalty when other players move on!

Yeo completely agree. Another thing to note is that his better games recently was the Wolves double header. When KWP was on the pitch. Maybe it's coincidence or maybe it is related. But it is plausible that he isn't getting so far forward because we don't have an adequate back up right back.

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He is miles better than Vokins, even now. I reckon he has a couple of years left, so hope he’ll take a bit of a pay cut given he’s on the decline. Do we really want another position to try and fix now ?

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On 02/03/2021 at 14:50, Saint86 said:

He also wants to commit his future to the club long term. You don't get many players happy to do that

32 year olds, looking for one final, large contract? The game is full of them.

On 02/03/2021 at 14:50, Saint86 said:

I've actually lost count of the number of times i've seen saints fans moan over the years about the lack of quality ex players involved in the club.

I don’t recall seeing anything like that personally. If anything I’d say the opposite and concerns that players like Dodd, Jaidi and Davis were just getting ‘jobs for the boys’ and were far from the most qualified for their role.

On 02/03/2021 at 14:50, Saint86 said:

I never quite understand why some fans are so eager, and want rid of, a loyal committed player

It’s not a case of getting rid, his contract is up. The debate is whether to offer him a new one and I would say no. He’s only going to get worse from here and at his wages will prevent us signing another player.

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It would be a very Saints thing to do to let him leave thinking we have a replacement, that to not happen then scramble around for weeks trying to get a replacement in, fail and start the season with Vokins. Don’t rule this out,

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  • Lighthouse changed the title to Ryan Bertrand

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