BLM & Football

[whelk]

Saw players were still doing it yesterday. When is it going to end? Symbolic at first but now just feels like a daft routine. Like clapping for NHS loses impact when just an expected performance of obligation.

[Mr X]

We live in 2020 the year of identity politics & woke virtual signalling, footballers have no choice but to adopt the knee or they would be crucified by their team mates & the media, you have to agree with BLM protests & philosophy or you're automatically a "racist" when BLM very much has its own agenda.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

20 minutes ago, SFC Forever said:

This BLM issue is all well and good but nobody is allowed to speak out about the rioting blacks. For 10 years I was a controller of a London cab office. We had many areas where we would not send our drivers to pick up. All were in black areas. We had loads of drivers mugged and 99% were done by blacks. I was done twice and both times they were armed. The biggest and most vocal racists are generally black.

I could name areas in Brixton where police wouldn't go unless in force and with armed response units on hand. I lived on the Angell Road estate where the trouble was this week as seen on tv.  Even back in the nineties you did not venture out on your own on foot if white without fear of attack by muggers.

This country is fast becoming a lawless state and I for one would willingly leave it if I was younger and healthier. We have serious financial issues to deal with yet rioting and property destruction is becoming ever more rampant. 

ALL LIVES MATTER not just black and white. 

 

Jesus fucking Christ. 

[TWar]

"Nobody is allowed to speak about the rioting blacks". These are things you don't expect to read on a football forum. Black lives matter is a fantastic cause and it is great it is getting support. If you object to it you need to have a look at yourself, honestly.

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

When is it going to end? 

Dunno, Kaprenick was doing it 4 years ago, did racism, police brutality etc. end then? Here we are 4 years later going through the same stuff. 

It's a peaceful protest of solidarity for people who are continually facing oppression that literally threatens their lives, why does it bother you if footballers want to keep doing it? It doesn't impact you in any way. 

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Saw players were still doing it yesterday. When is it going to end? Symbolic at first but now just feels like a daft routine. Like clapping for NHS loses impact when just an expected performance of obligation.

This is not a five minute problem that can simply be brushed under the table and forgotten about because it is inconvenient for people like you who seem totally oblivious to the plight and feelings of the socially and economically disadvantaged minority groups who are our fellow countrymen. Shame on you!

 

Try to think about it from their perspective when pontificating from the comfort of your middle class retirement

[Charlie Wayman]

49 minutes ago, SFC Forever said:

This BLM issue is all well and good but nobody is allowed to speak out about the rioting blacks. For 10 years I was a controller of a London cab office. We had many areas where we would not send our drivers to pick up. All were in black areas. We had loads of drivers mugged and 99% were done by blacks. I was done twice and both times they were armed. The biggest and most vocal racists are generally black.

I could name areas in Brixton where police wouldn't go unless in force and with armed response units on hand. I lived on the Angell Road estate where the trouble was this week as seen on tv.  Even back in the nineties you did not venture out on your own on foot if white without fear of attack by muggers.

This country is fast becoming a lawless state and I for one would willingly leave it if I was younger and healthier. We have serious financial issues to deal with yet rioting and property destruction is becoming ever more rampant. 

ALL LIVES MATTER not just black and white. 

 

You should be ashamed to have posted this.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, SFC Forever said:

This BLM issue is all well and good but nobody is allowed to speak out about the rioting blacks. For 10 years I was a controller of a London cab office. We had many areas where we would not send our drivers to pick up. All were in black areas. We had loads of drivers mugged and 99% were done by blacks. I was done twice and both times they were armed. The biggest and most vocal racists are generally black.

I could name areas in Brixton where police wouldn't go unless in force and with armed response units on hand. I lived on the Angell Road estate where the trouble was this week as seen on tv.  Even back in the nineties you did not venture out on your own on foot if white without fear of attack by muggers.

This country is fast becoming a lawless state and I for one would willingly leave it if I was younger and healthier. We have serious financial issues to deal with yet rioting and property destruction is becoming ever more rampant. 

ALL LIVES MATTER not just black and white. 

 

That must have been really frightening and no wonder it influences your opinion on the matter. Its a shame that some of the replies to your post thus far are just expressing faux outrage or indignation rather than a bit of empathy for someone who clearly has some real world experience of some of the issues. I think it's a bit hypobolic to claim we are a lawless state but I get what you are saying. To be fair I think you absolutely are allowed to speak out about rioting and issues within the black community itself but it is true to say that there is a smearing effort from some outlets if you do so. 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Saint Billy]

10 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

You should be ashamed to have posted this.

Why should he be ashamed?. 

It happened, he's telling it, or is that not pc anymore ffs. 

[Barsiem]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That must have been really frightening and no wonder it influences your opinion on the matter. Its a shame that some of the replies to your post thus far are just expressing faux outrage or indignation rather than a bit of empathy for someone who clearly has some real world experience of some of the issues. I think it's a bit hypobolic to claim we are a lawless state but I get what you are saying. To be fair I think you absolutely are allowed to speak out about rioting and issues within the black community itself but it is true to say that there is a smearing effort from some outlets if you do so. 

The irony of you asking for empathy for one person whilst showing none for people of colour who face daily racism is astounding....  

Maybe it’ll be helpful for those of decrying “rioting blacks” to question why this sort of thing occurs.  This is from the wiki page on riots:

Riots often occur in reaction to a grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poverty, unemployment, poor living conditions, governmental oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between ethnic groups, (race riot) or religions (sectarian violence, pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (sports riot, football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances.^[2]

[TWar]

32 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

This is not a five minute problem that can simply be brushed under the table and forgotten about because it is inconvenient for people like you who seem totally oblivious to the plight and feelings of the socially and economically disadvantaged minority groups who are our fellow countrymen. Shame on you!

 

Try to think about it from their perspective when pontificating from the comfort of your middle class retirement

Well put.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

The irony of you asking for empathy for one person whilst showing none for people of colour who face daily racism is astounding....  

Maybe it’ll be helpful for those of decrying “rioting blacks” to question why this sort of thing occurs.  This is from the wiki page on riots:

Riots often occur in reaction to a grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poverty, unemployment, poor living conditions, governmental oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between ethnic groups, (race riot) or religions (sectarian violence, pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (sports riot, football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances.^[2]

What does wiki say about black kids stabbing other black kids? 

[TWar]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

What does wiki say about black kids stabbing other black kids? 

It says it is not systemic oppression and bringing it up in a conversation about systemic oppression is a lame attempt at whataboutism born out of ignorance, I'd imagine.

[Saint Billy]

Is it ok to decry white rioting as many did on here regarding the right wing riots the other week?. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

Is it ok to decry white rioting as many did on here regarding the right wing riots the other week?. 

Some of my best friends are white 

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Fair comments by the OP I feel, lots of us have had experiences like this that influence our emotional response, me included. However, we all have a duty to think about the oppression the black community feel and what we can do about it from the perspective of our own unconscious bias, but this is very definitely a two way street (unconscious bias is rooted in perceptions on both sides) and the way the media are ramming the BLM agenda down everyone's throats is just creating more division. George Floyd might have been a lowlife bum, part-time criminal and a nasty piece of work but didn't deserve to die the way he did. Taking a knee disrespects the approach your country is taking towards improving the lives of black people. It's two fingers to Society effectively saying sod the flag, sod the country, we are taking things into our own hands. It's unnecessarily aggressive, particularly with the fist in the air, and just encourages the more unhinged elements on both sides to stick the boot in. Time it stopped and the focus went back onto actions that are going to fix things - more opportunities across the board for BAME and for Gods sake, something needs to be done about the epidemic of single parent families (black and white) as that is the root cause of so much poverty and crime.
The knee has to stop, as does the violence, to be replaced by actions that will actually make a difference.

 

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

The irony of you asking for empathy for one person whilst showing none for people of colour who face daily racism is astounding....  

Maybe it’ll be helpful for those of decrying “rioting blacks” to question why this sort of thing occurs.  This is from the wiki page on riots:

Riots often occur in reaction to a grievance or out of dissent. Historically, riots have occurred due to poverty, unemployment, poor living conditions, governmental oppression, taxation or conscription, conflicts between ethnic groups, (race riot) or religions (sectarian violence, pogrom), the outcome of a sporting event (sports riot, football hooliganism) or frustration with legal channels through which to air grievances.^[2]

Again this is a common tactic to suggest I lack empathy for others rather than fundamentally disagreeing with their world view. I'm perfectly comfortable with level of empathy I display to all manner of people unlike people like you whose capacity for empathy seems to end once someone expresses the wrong opinions that they disagree with.  Also patronising and wrong for you to suggest that all "people of colour" somehow possess the same opinions on this as if they are some sort of amorphous blob. There are clear and obvious problems in the black community that need to be worked on alongside any other complaints of racism. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

Is it ok to decry white rioting as many did on here regarding the right wing riots the other week?. 

Any rioting in the current climate is dumb and wrong. Couldn't care less what skin colour the perpetrators are. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

We’re watching multi millionaires “taking the knee”, before doing all they can to get to the Qatar World Cup. Think about that for a minute. 

[whelk]

58 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

This is not a five minute problem that can simply be brushed under the table and forgotten about because it is inconvenient for people like you who seem totally oblivious to the plight and feelings of the socially and economically disadvantaged minority groups who are our fellow countrymen. Shame on you!

 

Try to think about it from their perspective when pontificating from the comfort of your middle class retirement

You deduce a lot from my post you senile old fcker. 

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wayman said:

This is not a five minute problem that can simply be brushed under the table and forgotten about because it is inconvenient for people like you who seem totally oblivious to the plight and feelings of the socially and economically disadvantaged minority groups who are our fellow countrymen. Shame on you!

 

Try to think about it from their perspective when pontificating from the comfort of your middle class retirement

What a load of absolute shit.

 

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, Kingsbridge Saint said:

Fair comments by the OP I feel, lots of us have had experiences like this that influence our emotional response, me included. However, we all have a duty to think about the oppression the black community feel and what we can do about it from the perspective of our own unconscious bias, but this is very definitely a two way street (unconscious bias is rooted in perceptions on both sides) and the way the media are ramming the BLM agenda down everyone's throats is just creating more division. George Floyd might have been a lowlife bum, part-time criminal and a nasty piece of work but didn't deserve to die the way he did. Taking a knee disrespects the approach your country is taking towards improving the lives of black people. It's two fingers to Society effectively saying sod the flag, sod the country, we are taking things into our own hands. It's unnecessarily aggressive, particularly with the fist in the air, and just encourages the more unhinged elements on both sides to stick the boot in. Time it stopped and the focus went back onto actions that are going to fix things - more opportunities across the board for BAME and for Gods sake, something needs to be done about the epidemic of single parent families (black and white) as that is the root cause of so much poverty and crime.
The knee has to stop, as does the violence, to be replaced by actions that will actually make a difference.

 

I don't agree with your stuff about unconscious bias but the rest of the post was pretty good. I think there'd be a much more receptive audience if as you say people dial down the aggressive rhetoric and actions and actually work on things which may do some good such as actions to reduce single parent families, gang culture, violent crime etc. I expect that efforts to reduce the number of single parent families - if it worked- would do more to improve outcomes for the black community than any sort of tokenism or diversity training. Likewise, sorting out the shocking levels of black on black crime would see a much greater improvement than multi millionaires kneeling at the football or giving sizable donations to the black lives matter organisation. 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[tajjuk]

19 minutes ago, Kingsbridge Saint said:

Taking a knee disrespects the approach your country is taking towards improving the lives of black people. It's two fingers to Society effectively saying sod the flag, sod the country, we are taking things into our own hands. It's unnecessarily aggressive, particularly with the fist in the air, and just encourages the more unhinged elements on both sides to stick the boot in. 

 

It's none of those things. 

How can literally kneeling on the floor quietly be 'aggressive'? It's the most peaceful protest you can do, also how can a flag be disrespected? It's an inanimate object made up of some colours on a piece of material and for the UK its a mismash of 4 flags anyway. That is the same stupid argument Trump made and all the right wingers made when Kaepernick did it, which was BS then and it's BS now, saying it disrespected their military personnel, and the vast majority of those same personnel came out in support of Kaepernick. 

It's saying there is a problem, and that problem needs fixing, and that not enough is being done to fix that problem, and we who are doing this kneeling are in solidarity with the people suffering so more is done to fix the problem. I cannot fathom how you can possibly think it is in anyway aggressive. 

If people have a problem with the kneeling and BLM stuff then they seriously need to have a look at themselves. 

It doesn't create division at all, it's literally an act of solidarity with people being unfairly and unjustly oppressed, the only people it upsets are actual racists, like that pr*ck who from Burnley who ordered that plane. 

Literally millions of people across the world have come together in agreement about this problem and about how not enough has been done to tackle and are saying enough is enough.

 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by tajjuk

[saintquin]

I've got no problem what so ever about anybody "taken a knee"  but, I do have a problem with people being forced to, which seems to be the case at the moment.

I would like equality in every form but let me support it my own way. 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Saint Billy said:

Why should he be ashamed?. 

It happened, he's telling it, or is that not pc anymore ffs. 

Because it is so one sided and just illustrates the problems that the BLM faces. Racial stereotyping. There are plenty of places that are dangerous to go into in the white community too. Some people are quick to jump on anti social behaviour by racial minorities or Muslims but you don’t hear a peep out of them when white, non Muslims are involved. 

[nta786]

I mean is it comparable to say that my best mate hates all dogs because when younger he was attacked by one- literally runs when he sees one. So understandable that sometimes the past can lead to kneejerk emotional responses.

however the point is we need to treat all equally and not tar everyone with the same brush/stereotype- i think that much should be obvious.

I can already picture DM headlines should there be a second spike using protestors/ravers as the headline photos for a second wave, whilst pictures of Liverpool fans gathering or the packed beaches will be overlooked.

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Because it is so one sided and just illustrates the problems that the BLM faces. Racial stereotyping. There are plenty of places that are dangerous to go into in the white community too. Some people are quick to jump on anti social behaviour by racial minorities or Muslims but you don’t hear a peep out of them when white, non Muslims are involved. 

Hold on. Is there a disproportionate problem with violence (in particular black on black violence) in the UK black community or not? That's not ignoring violence from other communities, it's stating a fact. Its irresponsible to discuss problems and how to solve them whilst avoiding clear issues for fear of appearing racist. That's how you end up in appalling situations like Pakistani rape gangs in the North. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, nta786 said:

I mean is it comparable to say that my best mate hates all dogs because when younger he was attacked by one- literally runs when he sees one. So understandable that sometimes the past can lead to kneejerk emotional responses.

however the point is we need to treat all equally and not tar everyone with the same brush/stereotype- i think that much should be obvious.

I can already picture DM headlines should there be a second spike using protestors/ravers as the headline photos for a second wave, whilst pictures of Liverpool fans gathering or the packed beaches will be overlooked.

Have they been overlooked? If anything they've all been reported on and condemned by opposing side with neither side stopping to consider it ironic that their tolerance for gatherings in the current climate is directly proportional to how much they agree with the politics of the people involved. 

[StDunko]

30 minutes ago, saintquin said:

I've got no problem what so ever about anybody "taken a knee"  but, I do have a problem with people being forced to, which seems to be the case at the moment.

I would like equality in every form but let me support it my own way. 

Wow, I'd not realised people were being forced to take a knee.  Can you just confirm who has been forced and what force was used against them to make them knee?  I had thought this was just being done voluntarily... 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, StDunko said:

Wow, I'd not realised people were being forced to take a knee.  Can you just confirm who has been forced and what force was used against them to make them knee?  I had thought this was just being done voluntarily... 

So you don't think there's any sort of political and societal pressure to conform? Do you think if a player decided not to their decision would be met with a shrug and no one would care? Or do you think they would be vilified accross social media and probably be prevented from playing again? 

[StDunko]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

So you don't think there's any sort of political and societal pressure to conform? Do you think if a player decided not to their decision would be met with a shrug and no one would care? Or do you think they would be vilified accross social media and probably be prevented from playing again? 

Perhaps they just all agree that it is an appropriate gesture?  I'm unaware of anyone suggesting that they are being forced to do this...

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, StDunko said:

Perhaps they just all agree that it is an appropriate gesture?  I'm unaware of anyone suggesting that they are being forced to do this...

I think you are intelligent enough to realise that no one is being physically forced to kneel and you know what he meant. I expect you wouldn't even get 100% of BLM supporters to agree with footballers taking a knee so football would be quite the outlier if every single footballer who plays agrees with taking the knee. The point is that thebcknseqienxesnofnnotndoibg so are so unpalatable that effectively they don't have a choice. 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

44 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

 

If people have a problem with the kneeling and BLM stuff then they seriously need to have a look at themselves. 

 

Literally millions of people across the world have come together in agreement about this problem and about how not enough has been done to tackle and are saying enough is enough.

 

I have a problem with some the “BLM stuff” , defunding the police for one. Who is that ultimately going to hurt the most, middle aged white men, or poor black youths?
I also have a problem with the simplistic message, that will in time lead to more racial tension. Tension that always harms the black community far more than the white. Political statements, however worthy, have no place in football. 

Of course “enough is enough” doesn’t apply to the downtrodden minorities & modern slaves who are building the stadiums for the Qatar World Cup. Who faces more prejudice, the black man in England or the migrant ‘worker’ in Qatar. A bird in Saudi or a black man in Newcastle. Football doesn’t think ‘enough is enough’ it’s making a cheap gesture for mugs like you to lap up. Itll soon be filing it’s  pockets with cash from regimes that treat minorities far far worse than we do here or in The US. 

[iansums]

Maybe the black community as a whole needs to take a look at itself and accept they are part of the problem, or is that a racist view?

[for_heaven's_Saint]

1 minute ago, iansums said:

Maybe the black community as a whole needs to take a look at itself and accept they are part of the problem, or is that a racist view?

Yep, I’d say it’s a racist view. 

[Red]

From some of the comments on here , it is very clear racism is very much a problem - and I don't mean the overt racism of the far right etc. Problem is even the most well meaning individual seems to have an almost inbuilt "awareness" that different people are to be viewed differently (mostly with suspicion) - be honest, what was the first thought in your mind when you last walked past a traditionally dressed Muslim with full beard etc. (certainly I was not comfortable and had my guard up) - this is institutional racism - most people don't deliberately and consciously do it, but it happens.

The BLM hopefully raises this awareness - that's all - it's not a threat to anyone - just a point to try to make us treat everyone equally. Of course all lives matter and there are plenty of injustices in the world (a starving white child is no different to a starving black one), but this is not a competition - let's just treat everyone as we would like to be treated ourselves, and I will be the first one to admit this is not easy when you come across some real low life scum (of all colour).

[iansums]

4 minutes ago, for_heaven's_Saint said:

Yep, I’d say it’s a racist view. 

Yeah, thought someone would, even though not one part of it was racist. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, for_heaven's_Saint said:

Yep, I’d say it’s a racist view. 

Incredible. So presumably no community has any sort of role in sorting out any problems within their own communities? So in your mind it would be racist to state that there is an issue of class in British society where some lower working class white individuals are discriminated on due to their status but also that this same community have a role to play to sort out lower levels of parental engagement with their children's education which undoubtedly contributions to a problem of lower achievement. That's the same logic. 

[Batman]

15 minutes ago, Red said:

From some of the comments on here , it is very clear racism is very much a problem - and I don't mean the overt racism of the far right etc. Problem is even the most well meaning individual seems to have an almost inbuilt "awareness" that different people are to be viewed differently (mostly with suspicion) - be honest, what was the first thought in your mind when you last walked past a traditionally dressed Muslim with full beard etc. (certainly I was not comfortable and had my guard up) - this is institutional racism - most people don't deliberately and consciously do it, but it happens.

The BLM hopefully raises this awareness - that's all - it's not a threat to anyone - just a point to try to make us treat everyone equally. Of course all lives matter and there are plenty of injustices in the world (a starving white child is no different to a starving black one), but this is not a competition - let's just treat everyone as we would like to be treated ourselves, and I will be the first one to admit this is not easy when you come across some real low life scum (of all colour).

But BLM want to "defund" the police and over-throw capitalism.  Almost like XR in a different uniform!

of course black lives matter, unsure who in the UK in 2020 thinks otherwise, bar an absolute minority, which will exists no matter what.

but the many of BLMs 'aims' are insane.  What are BLMs aims for black lives in Africa? Where real slaves are mining for materials for our phones/tech, clothing and jewellery...or is that 'fair game'?

What are Raheem Sterling's thoughts on boycotting the World Cup? In a land where basic human rights are scarce? Not hearing much on that one!

That is not to talk about boycotting 'white' businesses and such like.  Of course, those championing that wont be doing it, they want everyone else to do it for them

I notice Lewis Hamilton still has not left Mercedes.  Why is that?

Ultimately, I am still baffled to what was common practice for centuries but abolished 200 years ago, has anything to do with me as the colour of someone's skin just does not register when I go about my day-to-day life.

 

you dont need to (or should not need to) endorse BLM to believe black lives matter

Edited 28 June, 2020 by Batman

[tajjuk]

22 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I have a problem with some the “BLM stuff” , defunding the police for one. Who is that ultimately going to hurt the most, middle aged white men, or poor black youths?
I also have a problem with the simplistic message, that will in time lead to more racial tension. Tension that always harms the black community far more than the white. Political statements, however worthy, have no place in football. 

Of course “enough is enough” doesn’t apply to the downtrodden minorities & modern slaves who are building the stadiums for the Qatar World Cup. Who faces more prejudice, the black man in England or the migrant ‘worker’ in Qatar. A bird in Saudi or a black man in Newcastle. Football doesn’t think ‘enough is enough’ it’s making a cheap gesture for mugs like you to lap up. Itll soon be filing it’s  pockets with cash from regimes that treat minorities far far worse than we do here or in The US. 

You clearly don't understand what defund the police actually means if you actually think it is going to hurt anyone, so ignorance is your first failing. 

Highlighting racial injustice leads to more racial tension? That is some stupid logic right there, because you know they were doing so well before when it wasn't being highlighted? Let's just keep quiet then whilst people are being racially abused, discriminated against and literally killed because of the colour of their skin, in some cases literally by people who are supposed to have a duty of care to them, because that has totally worked hasn't it, because massive leaps and bounds have been made since this was last highlighted four years ago? Oh wait, not they haven't, what a completely dumb comment. 

Keep quiet for what, so some racist white people don't get upset? 

It's not political, if you think it is then that is just more of your own ignorance. It's social justice and it has massive relevance in football, especially when football has a higher percentage of black people than society as a whole, just like Saudi Arabia's potential takeover of Newcastle and it's human rights abuse has relevance in football.

And the final part is classic 'whataboutism' and is just a completely dumb argument.

Oh and the irony of calling me a mug when you literally have just repeated a stupid right wing trope and have displayed bucketloads of ignorance. 

21 minutes ago, iansums said:

Maybe the black community as a whole needs to take a look at itself and accept they are part of the problem, or is that a racist view?

So George Floyd being suffocated was in part his fault, because restraining a man on the floor and suffocating him for 20 minutes over a fake $20 dollar bill is of course a proportional response to that crime, that they weren't even sure he had committed.

Oh and it was totally the black communities fault that the Police Officer who murdered him had something like 19 previous complaints against him and had being poorly punished for many previous failings yet so somehow still in a position of power and responsibility where he could pin a man down on the floor and murder him.

I am also sure it's totally the black communities fault that black footballers get monkey charts.

 

................

Edited 28 June, 2020 by tajjuk

[for_heaven's_Saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Incredible. So presumably no community has any sort of role in sorting out any problems within their own communities? So in your mind it would be racist to state that there is an issue of class in British society where some lower working class white individuals are discriminated on due to their status but also that this same community have a role to play to sort out lower levels of parental engagement with their children's education which undoubtedly contributions to a problem of lower achievement. That's the same logic. 

What does ‘black community as a whole’ mean? Are there not differing levels of class, education, wealth etc within the black community? 
 

Your example obviously isn’t racist, nor would it be racist to suggest the same about black working class issues. The racist thing is the ‘community as a whole’. 
 

A person of colour could be extremely successful but still suffer discrimination because of their skin colour. Are they part of the problem?

[East Kent Saint]

Everyone’s tribal it’s human nature . The racism in the USA is ingrained by the slave trade , it is very difficult to change perceptions even after hundreds of years. If you read about the way people were abducted from Africa , the conditions on the Ships during transport , the fact they were thrown overboard when they were in bad health, or the ship encountered bad weather . Then the appalling treatment they received on arrival is difficult to comprehend. At the time the UK made fortunes from this trade.

Since then the slaves , even when emancipated, have been subjected to discrimination. In recent times all statistics show people of colour are discriminated against by stop and search and now lockdown fines . I read yesterday about a computer programmer who was not easily identified by his voice or name so got interviews for jobs , he got a job but was subjected to complete surprise when he turned up for interviews. When giving presentations on technical issues to a group , the questions about his presentation were directed to the other members of his team who weren’t Of colour. He had numerous examples of being ignored or of being told he was in the wrong room as they were having a meeting etc !

Taking the knee ,  well like all these campaigns pressure is put on people , a bit like Poppy wearing during remembrance .  

 

 

 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by East Kent Saint

[iansums]

2 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

You clearly don't understand what defund the police actually means if you actually think it is going to hurt anyone, so ignorance is your first failing. 

Highlighting racial injustice leads to more racial tension? That is some stupid logic right there, because you know they were doing so well before when it wasn't being highlighted? Let's just keep quiet then whilst people are being racially abused, discriminated against and literally killed because of the colour of their skin, in some cases literally by people who are supposed to have a duty of care to them, because that has totally worked hasn't it, because massive leaps and bounds have been made since this was last highlighted four years ago? Oh wait, not they haven't, what a completely dumb comment. 

Keep quiet for what, so some racist white people don't get upset? 

It's not political, if you think it is then that is just more of your own ignorance. It's social justice and it has massive relevance in football, especially when football has a higher percentage of black people than society as a whole, just like Saudi Arabia's potential takeover of Newcastle and it's human rights abuse has relevance in football.

And the final part is classic 'whataboutism' and is just a completely dumb argument.

Oh and the irony of calling me a mug when you literally have just repeated a stupid right wing trope and have displayed bucketloads of ignorance. 

So George Floyd being suffocated was in part his fault, because restraining a man on the floor and suffocating him for 20 minutes over a fake $20 dollar bill is of course a proportional response to that crime, that they weren't even sure he had committed.

Oh and it was totally the black communities fault that the Police Officer who murdered him had something like 19 previous complaints against him and had being poorly punished for many previous failings yet so somehow still in a position of power and responsibility where he could pin a man down on the floor and murder him.

I am also sure it's totally the black communities fault that black footballers get monkey charts.

................

That’s not what I said, as well you know. I don’t deny there is a major issue with racism in this country but part of that is an issue with the family background of young black males.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, for_heaven's_Saint said:

What does ‘black community as a whole’ mean? Are there not differing levels of class, education, wealth etc within the black community? 
 

Your example obviously isn’t racist, nor would it be racist to suggest the same about black working class issues. The racist thing is the ‘community as a whole’. 
 

A person of colour could be extremely successful but still suffer discrimination because of their skin colour. Are they part of the problem?

It's black lives matter supporters asking for BAME people to be treated as a distinct group. I'd prefer that we concentrated on shared values and the content of one's character rather than what shade their skin happens to be but apparently we can't do that anymore. If we are hellbent on seeing colour and making it a factor then if we want to solve problems we need to look at it in all caees and not just when it's convenient. There's large amount of black on black crime in the UK and particularly in London. There's high levels of knife crime committed by black UK citizens. There's high levels of fatherlessness and single parent households in bame families. Pointing out that these things need sorting and that if it were successful it would lead to vastly better outcomes for black people isn't racist it's a statement of fact. Unless you're suggesting there isn't what could be referred to as a black community in the likes of London? 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Everyone’s tribal it’s human nature . The racism in the USA is ingrained by the slave trade , it is very difficult to change perceptions even after hundreds of years. If you read about the way people were abducted from Africa , the conditions on the Ships during transport , the fact they were thrown overboard when they were in bad health, or the ship encountered bad weather . Then the appalling treatment they received on arrival is difficult to comprehend. At the time the UK made fortunes from this trade.

Since then the slaves , even when emancipated, have been subjected to discrimination. In recent times all statistics show people of colour are discriminated against by stop and search and now lockdown fines . I read yesterday about a computer programmer who was not easily identified by his voice or name so got interviews for jobs , he got a job but was subjected to complete surprise when he turned up for interviews. When giving presentations on technical issues to a group , the questions about his presentation were directed to the other members of his team who weren’t Of colour. He had numerous examples of being ignored or of being told he was in the wrong room as they were having a meeting etc !

Taking the knee ,  well like all these campaigns pressure is put on people , a bit like Poppy wearing during remembrance .  

 

 

 

If we were to look at stats I'd imagine that a very high proportion of stop and search candidates would happen to be male. Does that make the UK police force institutionally racist? 

[tajjuk]

5 minutes ago, iansums said:

That’s not what I said, as well you know. I don’t deny there is a major issue with racism in this country but part of that is an issue with the family background of young black males.

That is exactly what you said, what the actual F does the family background got to do with the Police literally treating all minorities worse than white people? What does it have to do with people not getting jobs because of their skin colour? what does it have to do with football shouting obscenities at them? 

What do you want them to do?, be more white? 

Black kids in America from all backgrounds are literally being taught by their parents on how to not potentially anger the Police in any way so the avoid getting killed, what to wear, how to act, where to be.

What you did was victim blaming, it's like suggesting women who get raped were wearing the wrong clothes or shouldn't have got drunk. 

[East Kent Saint]

You have to consider the Windrush scandal as well . People who were recruited to the UK , worked here for 40 years or more are suddenly told they cannot stay here and are going to be deported! shameful, image you have cancer and are told to pay £40 k up front to get any treatment? Even though you have worked and paid NI , taxes etc for 40 years or more ? Shameful.

[iansums]

Agreed, this was scandalous and clearly adds to the whole problem.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's black lives matter supporters asking for BAME people to be treated as a distinct group. I'd prefer that we concentrated on shared values and the content of one's character rather than what shade their skin happens to be but apparently we can't do that anymore. If we are hellbent on seeing colour and making it a factor then if we want to solve problems we need to look at it in all caees and not just when it's convenient. There's large amount of black on black crime in the UK and particularly in London. There's high levels of knife crime committed by black UK citizens. There's high levels of fatherlessness and single parent households in bame families. Pointing out that these things need sorting and that if it were successful it would lead to vastly better outcomes for black people isn't racist it's a statement of fact. Unless you're suggesting there isn't what could be referred to as a black community in the likes of London? 

I live in south London so I’m more than aware of the diverse communities. The whole ignoring skin colour thing is admirable in principle but it in turn ignores the fact that white people and people of colour are not on a level playing field. This racism may be subconscious but it’s discrimination nonetheless. I don’t think anyone is advocating ignoring the things you mention but these issues stem from inequality. 

[iansums]

9 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

That is exactly what you said, what the actual F does the family background got to do with the Police literally treating all minorities worse than white people? What does it have to do with people not getting jobs because of their skin colour? what does it have to do with football shouting obscenities at them? 

What do you want them to do?, be more white? 

Black kids in America from all backgrounds are literally being taught by their parents on how to not potentially anger the Police in any way so the avoid getting killed, what to wear, how to act, where to be.

What you did was victim blaming, it's like suggesting women who get raped were wearing the wrong clothes or shouldn't have got drunk. 

Once again, not what I said. Firstly, my comments are about the UK, not the US where I believe the problems are a lot worse. Secondly, I am talking specifically about the relationship between the young black community and police as described earlier in this thread where there are issues on both sides. What you have done is shout down my opinion because it does follow the usual narrative that authorities and institutions are totally to blame.

I’d also like to make it clear that I don’t have any black friends.