Re-examining and learning from history

[Hockey_saint]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You realise when I say "everyone" I don't mean literally every single person in the UK right? 

just saying; as I said before, I treat anyone finding weasel words to put down or besmirch a bunch of people campaigning for equality with a level of suspicion.....saying all the BLM mob are there for violence is like calling everyone who voted leave a bunch of racists....it's the same thing.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Hockey_saint said:

just saying; as I said before, I treat anyone finding weasel words to put down or besmirch a bunch of people campaigning for equality with a level of suspicion.....saying all the BLM mob are there for violence is like calling everyone who voted leave a bunch of racists....it's the same thing.

Again, I didn't say that did I. Why are you so intent on both putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and apologising for this organisation when they have multiple examples of this sort of thing? 

[Hockey_saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Again, I didn't say that did I. Why are you so intent on both putting words in my mouth that I didn't say and apologising for this organisation when they have multiple examples of this sort of thing? 

It just seems you're finding reasons to make them sound bad. Most of the people who follow BLM don't look at whatever "evidence" it is you can see about them; they just see them as campaigning for equality....Brexiteers have spent years trying to tell us most people don't look at the obvious links to the far right and that if we do, they are purely coincidental (like Darren Grimes and Richard Starkey today) but you want to put this lot down because a few are Marxists.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Hockey_saint said:

It just seems you're finding reasons to make them sound bad. Most of the people who follow BLM don't look at whatever "evidence" it is you can see about them; they just see them as campaigning for equality....Brexiteers have spent years trying to tell us most people don't look at the obvious links to the far right and that if we do, they are purely coincidental (like Darren Grimes and Richard Starkey today) but you want to put this lot down because a few are Marxists.

By 'a few' do you mean the organisers?

[hypochondriac]

42 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

By 'a few' do you mean the organisers?

And by reasons do you mean things like quoting their own words or linking to their website and fundraising pages? It's not exactly some obscure piece of information. 

[aintforever]

I see the England cricket team and Formula 1 are also going to be backing the evil Marxist plot.

 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I see the England cricket team and Formula 1 are also going to be backing the evil Marxist plot.

 

Unfortunately that just highlights how deep this malaise has got. I expect they will also be releasing clarifications and caveats to their support like the Premier league and their brands will be similarly tarnished like them too. 

[Turkish]

47 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Unfortunately that just highlights how deep this malaise has got. I expect they will also be releasing clarifications and caveats to their support like the Premier league and their brands will be similarly tarnished like them too. 

Add the BBC and Sky into that as well. Kind of sums it up when these sort of organisations have to issue statements clarifying what exactly they are and aren’t supporting. It’s pretty indisputable other than to those desperate not to appear racist that BLM is more than just a group of people angry about racism to black people. 

Edited 3 July, 2020 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Add the BBC and Sky into that as well. Kind of sums it up when these sort of organisations have to issue statements clarifying what exactly they are and aren’t supporting. It’s pretty clear to  indisputable other than those desperate not to appear racist that BLM is more than just a group of people angry about racism to black people. 

Even if what they are now saying is true and they never supported the black lives matter organisation, why would a multi million pound organisation like the Premier league put themselves in a position where there is any ambiguity at all? It seems the desire to not be called racist has outweighed any sort of common sense or due diligence and it will damage them as a consequence. I don't think this would have happened without the stadiums being closed to fans because they wouldn't want the spectacle of people in the stands expressing their displeasure. 

Edited 3 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

31 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Even if what they are now saying is true and they never supported the black lives matter organisation, why would a multi million pound organisation like the Premier league put themselves in a position where there is any ambiguity at all? It seems the desire to not be called racist has outweighed any sort of common sense or due diligence and it will damage them as a consequence. I don't think this would have happened without the stadiums being closed to fans because they wouldn't want the spectacle of people in the stands expressing their displeasure. 

Or maybe they understand that it's a good cause not some stealth marxist plot, but need to spell it out for the simpletons among us?

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or maybe they understand that it's a good cause not some stealth marxist plot, but need to spell it out for the simpletons among us?

They put themselves in a situation where they supported black lives matter who subsequently put out a number of controversial tweets. People who weren't previously aware started looking into things more closely and weren't happy with what they found out, ex footballers expressed reservations and so the Premier league panicked and walked back their previous support. Its a situation entirely of their own making and no doubt they will have feared it doing damage hence their statement but I'm not surprised that someone like you who has been an apologist from the start would try to play it down. 

Edited 3 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

They put themselves in a situation where they supported black lives matter who subsequently put out a number of controversial tweets. People who weren't previously aware started looking into things more closely and weren't happy with what they found out, ex footballers expressed reservations and so the Premier league panicked and walked back their previous support. Its a situation entirely of their own making and no doubt they will have feared it doing damage hence their statement but I'm not surprised that someone like you who has been an apologist from the start would try to play it down. 

Their statement from the start was crystal clear what their gestures stood for - it's only because the gutter press trying to make it it means something it's not that they are clarifying it. Of course they want to distance them selves from any marxist idiots or crackpot ideas like defunding the plod.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Their statement from the start was crystal clear what their gestures stood for - it's only because the gutter press trying to make it it means something it's not that they are clarifying it. Of course they want to distance them selves from any marxist idiots or crackpot ideas like defunding the plod.

It's got nothing to do with the press. The ambiguity is there because the organisation called black lives matter has existed for over a decade and their views were well known before all of this. It's the equivalent of setting up a new group called antifa because you're anti fascist and then complaining when it's pointed out that there's already a group called that, some of the new followers of your group already support the old group and your group is damaged by the association. 

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's got nothing to do with the press. The ambiguity is there because the organisation called black lives matter has existed for over a decade and their views were well known before all of this. It's the equivalent of setting up a new group called antifa because you're anti fascist and then complaining when it's pointed out that there's already a group called that, some of the new followers of your group already support the old group and your group is damaged by the association. 

Yeah, damaged so badly England Cricket and Formula 1 want a piece of the action as well.

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Yeah, damaged so badly England Cricket and Formula 1 want a piece of the action as well.

Every organisation feels compelled to show that it is positively "on message", and won't bother to look beyond the public veneer of BLM for fear of castigation by the mob.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Even if what they are now saying is true and they never supported the black lives matter organisation, why would a multi million pound organisation like the Premier league put themselves in a position where there is any ambiguity at all? It seems the desire to not be called racist has outweighed any sort of common sense or due diligence and it will damage them as a consequence. I don't think this would have happened without the stadiums being closed to fans because they wouldn't want the spectacle of people in the stands expressing their displeasure. 

Odd perspective that you view it as a ‘desire to not be called racist’. 

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Every organisation feels compelled to show that it is positively "on message", and won't bother to look beyond the public veneer of BLM for fear of castigation by the mob.

Or because they think speaking out about racism is the right thing to do, and think the fact that a few people from some organisations within BLM have odd political views is pretty irrelevant.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Or maybe they understand that it's a good cause not some stealth marxist plot, but need to spell it out for the simpletons among us?

Sounds to me it's the simpletons that throw their weight behind a cause because it's flavour of the month without actually understanding what the cause stands for. 

[hypochondriac]

37 minutes ago, whelk said:

Odd perspective that you view it as a ‘desire to not be called racist’. 

Fear of a social media mob calling you racist is a powerful thing. Who would want hundreds of anonymous users targeting your organisation or calling up advertisers and organising boycotts? It's why we have so many companies and individuals who shouted their support and who are now climbing down and issuing clarifications. 

Edited 3 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or because they think speaking out about racism is the right thing to do, and think the fact that a few people from some organisations within BLM have odd political views is pretty irrelevant.

"a few people from some organisations within BLM." Do you realise how odd that phrase sounds? It's blacklivesmatter.com, blacklivesmatteruk twitter page, the gofundme that has raised millions, spokespeople all over the news being explicit about their beliefs, the founder of the movement describing herself as Marxist, the organisation being explicit about what they believe for a decade, placards outlining many of these views at every march. It's not like some fringe part of it. 

If it were irrelevant then they'd feel no need to make clarifications and climbdowns. The fact that they have destroys your attempt to write it off as something tiny or irrelevant. 

Edited 3 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Weston Super Saint]

42 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Or because they think speaking out about racism is the right thing to do, and think the fact that a few people from some organisations within BLM have odd political views is pretty irrelevant.

Lol.  What a strange point of view.

Using your benchmarking, it's like saying that every 1000 people in an EDL march are only really there because they like white flags with red crosses on them, it's only the odd one or two people on the march that have racist and homophobic views but they're irrelevant really!

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Sounds to me it's the simpletons that throw their weight behind a cause because it's flavour of the month without actually understanding what the cause stands for. 

This is exactly what it is. Politicians particularly, should  have known exactly who these people are and what they represent, Nigel told them at the very beginning. Perhaps next time they’ll be more forensic and won’t have to issue ‘clarifications’. 
 

 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol.  What a strange point of view.

Using your benchmarking, it's like saying that every 1000 people in an EDL march are only really there because they like white flags with red crosses on them, it's only the odd one or two people on the march that have racist and homophobic views but they're irrelevant really!

Not similar at all. The fact that you can’t comprehend people were outraged about the killing of George Floyd and wanted to protest gains racism and police brutality in the US. But they were all matching to overthrow capitalism. That was.clear from the the onset.

when marching with EDL it is pretty clear what you support.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Fear of a social media mob calling you racist is a powerful thing. Who would want hundreds of anonymous users targeting your organisation or calling up advertisers and organising boycotts? It's why we have so many companies and individuals who shouted their support and who are now climbing down and issuing clarifications. 

It isn’t all about extremes. I actually don’t agree with support from PL and Sky but I don’t think it comes from a place of fear.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol.  What a strange point of view.

Using your benchmarking, it's like saying that every 1000 people in an EDL march are only really there because they like white flags with red crosses on them, it's only the odd one or two people on the march that have racist and homophobic views but they're irrelevant really!

Wow, you really think that everyone marching in the George Floyd protests were Marxists who want to abolish the police and end capitalism!

This is the sort of idea every single racist up and down the country would love us to believe - well done keep it up, Nigel would be proud.

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol.  What a strange point of view.

Using your benchmarking, it's like saying that every 1000 people in an EDL march are only really there because they like white flags with red crosses on them, it's only the odd one or two people on the march that have racist and homophobic views but they're irrelevant really!

Here's an article about two guys from a football team who went on a George Floyd march, weirdly no mention of Marxism, defunding the plod or ending capitalism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53208273

[Hockey_saint]

39 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Wow, you really think that everyone marching in the George Floyd protests were Marxists who want to abolish the police and end capitalism!

This is the sort of idea every single racist up and down the country would love us to believe - well done keep it up, Nigel would be proud.

As I've said..it's pretty standard. What amazes me is how they think they're any different from those who used Marxism to back their agendas before.....it's odd though because we used the very worst Marxist of all time in our hour of need too.

[Wes Tender]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2RujJ04vxY

Re-examining and learning from history. Here is an interesting take on it.

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, aintforever said:

Here's an article about two guys from a football team who went on a George Floyd march, weirdly no mention of Marxism, defunding the plod or ending capitalism:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-53208273

Why have you renamed it a 'George Floyd' march?  It was a 'black lives matter' march.  They had banners, placards and everything, not sure how you missed that.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 hours ago, whelk said:

Not similar at all. The fact that you can’t comprehend people were outraged about the killing of George Floyd and wanted to protest gains racism and police brutality in the US. But they were all matching to overthrow capitalism. That was.clear from the the onset.

when marching with EDL it is pretty clear what you support.

How do you know I can't comprehend it?

[Manuel]

1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2RujJ04vxY

Re-examining and learning from history. Here is an interesting take on it.

I watched it.  Broadly I agree with a lot of it, although some of the comparisons to the Middle Ages were a bit iffy and there aren't any deaths by fire or torture to have to worry about in the UK these days.  You will definitely be shamed for not following the latest righteous bandwagon though, as has been discussed on here when all the footballers started kneeling.  Imagine the scandal if one had declined to, for whatever reason.   

The Tim Hunt example was a good one.  How he was treated was terrible.  If was just about twitter, fine, you can turn it off.  But for the University to get involved was wrong and Dimbleby was right to resign his fellowship in protest.  Good on him.  

[Manuel]

Oh and the land ownership comparisons withe the past were interesting.  Also the charity stats.  I have always been wary of charities after I worked for one once.  

[Hockey_saint]

3 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2RujJ04vxY

Re-examining and learning from history. Here is an interesting take on it.

His "10 reasons I voted against the EU" is very interesting.

[hypochondriac]

Interesting. Looks like F1 drivers don't think it's so clear either (and they don't like Lewis Hamilton who is obviously a fantastic driver and not someone you'd want to hang out with outside of the sport.) Apparently objecting to kneeling is now a lack of understanding of racism, who knew! 

 

 

Edited 4 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Hockey_saint]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Interesting. Looks like F1 drivers don't think it's so clear either (and they don't like Lewis Hamilton who is obviously a fantastic driver and not someone you'd want to hang out with outside of the sport.) Apparently objecting to kneeling is now a lack of understanding of racism, who knew! 

 

 

As long as you understand that most people are doing it to acknowledge the inequalities faced by black people and don't write it off as simply political because of suspiciously convenient links to left wing organisations then I suppose it's their choice.

 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

 

Is it their choice? Lewis is saying that "silence is generally complicit." It sounds to me like he is saying that if they don't want to kneel that they are complicit in racism. 

(oh and "suspiciously convenient"? Do me a favour. It's hardly a great leap to link the two supposedly separate movements when one of them pops up and starts using the same name as the movement which has been around for a decade, when that same movement sees a spike in funding at the same time as the other "separate movement" starts to use their name and they share the same iconography and messages at protests etc.)

[Hockey_saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Is it their choice? Lewis is saying that "silence is generally complicit." It sounds to me like he is saying that if they don't want to kneel that they are complicit in racism. 

(oh and "suspiciously convenient"? Do me a favour. It's hardly a great leap to link the two supposedly separate movements when one of them pops up and starts using the same name as the movement which has been around for a decade, when that same movement sees a spike in funding at the same time as the other "separate movement" starts to use their name and they share the same iconography and messages at protests etc.)

It's hardly a great leap to suggest Jesus was a socialist but should we condemn him for it too? It's like a minute's silence for 11/11. you don't have to do it.....but...

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

It's hardly a great leap to suggest Jesus was a socialist but should we condemn him for it too? It's like a minute's silence for 11/11. you don't have to do it.....but...

You're using the phrase "suspiciously convenient" like the connection between black lives matter and black lives matter is some far right invention to discredit the whole thing. In reality, black lives matter has been in existence for a decade, has official social media and websites, spokespeople, has made millions recently in fundraising recently and shares a number of members. There's nothing suspicious about the connection at all, the connection is explicit as the Premier league, keir starmer, ex footballers, mlt and F1 drivers etc have made clear. They have all now had to issue clarifications or express concern about the links yet you continue to act as if it's some wild crackpot theory. I would suggest that you have your own agenda for playing down these clear links because then your narrative falls apart but as we've seen it's becoming increasingly difficult for you as more speak out. 

Edited 4 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Hockey_saint]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You're using the phrase "suspiciously convenient" like the connection between black lives matter and black lives matter is some far right invention to discredit the whole thing. In reality, black lives matter has been in existence for a decade, has official social media and websites, spokespeople, has made millions recently in fundraising recently and shares a number of members. There's nothing suspicious about the connection at all, the connection is explicit as the Premier league, keir starmer, ex footballers, mlt and F1 drivers etc have made clear. They have all now had to issue clarifications or express concern about the links yet you continue to act as if it's some wild crackpot theory. I would suggest that you have your own agenda for playing down these clear links because then your narrative falls apart but as we've seen it's becoming increasingly difficult for you as more speak out. 

"as more speak out" usually in right wing sources like the Daily Mail who are looking for it.....positive reinforcement. I don't have an agenda, why am I arguing anyhow? You do what you like, acknowledge the treatment of minorities needs to be improved or not just don't try to find weasel excuses not to.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

"as more speak out" usually in right wing sources like the Daily Mail who are looking for it.....positive reinforcement. I don't have an agenda, why am I arguing anyhow? You do what you like, acknowledge the treatment of minorities needs to be improved or not just don't try to find weasel excuses not to.

Now you've completely lost me. When I said "as more speak out" I was referring to ex footballers, the Premier league, F1 drivers who have expressed reservations about taking a knee, keir starmer and other politicians and I'm sure more will continue to do so. It's got nothing to do with anything right wing and you look a bit silly for suggesting it.

Not supporting black lives matter or not taking a knee has no impact on support for minorities in the slightest, in fact I would argue that the entire exercise has been more divisive than anything else. 

Edited 4 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Hockey_saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Now you've completely lost me. When I said "as more speak out" I was referring to ex footballers, the Premier league, F1 drivers who have expressed reservations about taking a knee, keir starmer. It's got nothing to do with anything right wing and you look a bit silly for suggesting it.

Not supporting black lives matter or not taking a knee has no impact on support for minorities in the slightest, in fact I would argue that the entire exercise has been more divisive than anything else. 

Ex-footballers tend to be great and reliable sources of information of inequality don't they?...In their mansions....kinda like F1 drivers. As I say, it's you're choice, just don't attempt to write people off that do.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

Ex-footballers tend to be great and reliable sources of information of inequality don't they?...In their mansions....kinda like F1 drivers. As I say, it's you're choice, just don't attempt to write people off that do.

I'd suggest that the F1 drivers expressing their opposition to taking the knee have just as much validity as a compatriot like multimillionaire Lewis Hamilton with his aggressive twitter posturing and attempts to publically pressure his peers by implying they support racism. Your point also weakens the argument for taking the knee. If ex footballers (and presumably current footballers) are not reliable judges of inequality then who are they to start publically supporting these organisations? 

You've got it entirely the wrong way round. No one in the UK that I have seen has ever said that someone cannot kneel down if they want to. No one has been vilified for kneeling (although the police were rightly criticised for it but that's a separate issue) but plenty are attempting to villify people who choose not to. Your plea not to villift people would be better directed at the likes of Hamilton. 

Edited 4 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Hockey_saint]

This whole point you've been going down for pages....trying to find and vilify Black Lives Matter for "Marxist links"....that vilifies people that do it, calling them sheep essentially....do you not understand that? Anti-war beliefs tend to be a bit left wing, shall we dig up all the juicy info we can find on the Royal British Legion? Put those that adhere to a minute's silence in question too?...Of course we shouldn't. I believe that every life matters and I understand the absolutely abhorrent history that many in this country still cling to as brilliant, or great so I understand why it does translate to here; I also know we have 2 leaders who have come out with some absolutely things that don't contribute much to race relations so I can see where the ground work might be laid that's all I'm saying.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Hockey_saint said:

This whole point you've been going down for pages....trying to find and vilify Black Lives Matter for "Marxist links"....that vilifies people that do it, calling them sheep essentially....do you not understand that? Anti-war beliefs tend to be a bit left wing, shall we dig up all the juicy info we can find on the Royal British Legion? Put those that adhere to a minute's silence in question too?...Of course we shouldn't. I believe that every life matters and I understand the absolutely abhorrent history that many in this country still cling to as brilliant, or great so I understand why it does translate to here; I also know we have 2 leaders who have come out with some absolutely things that don't contribute much to race relations so I can see where the ground work might be laid that's all I'm saying.

The only reason I've had to repeat myself is because of posters like you who wilfully refuse to concede the clear and obvious links. Initially you said there were no links and then when more and more people started speaking out and expressing concerns its morphed into there only being links that somehow I've been desperate to find. Any reasonable person would conclude that the links are incredibly obvious and incredibly clear which is why so many organisations are issuing these clarifications and expressing reservations. My concern from the start of this alongside the Covid issue was these links and that concern has proven correct.

I do think there are a number of people who have inadvertently supported this organisation with views they disagree with and they quite rightly feel annoyed about it. If an organisation called the royal British legion had started ten years before the current organisation with unsavoury views then I'd be expressing similar concerns that there would be confusion there and that people could end up lending their support to things they would rather not be associated with. I'm sure there are plenty of financial contributors to blmuk who would have been duped into giving to them and that's a big concern. I don't want those people to have any more unearned power. 

I also think that every life matters so we can agree on that at least. 

[wadesmith]

On 02/07/2020 at 19:43, hypochondriac said:

You realise when I say "everyone" I don't mean literally every single person in the UK right? 

You realise when they say 'Black Lives Matter' they don't literally mean only black lives matter right?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, wadesmith said:

You realise when they say 'Black Lives Matter' they don't literally mean only black lives matter right?

Yes. I never claimed otherwise. Although looking at some of the violent messages on signs you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise from at least a percentage of the protestors. 

[wadesmith]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Yes. I never claimed otherwise. Although looking at some of the violent messages on signs you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise from at least a percentage of the protestors. 

I think we'll just go ahead and put you down as 'not sure'

[hypochondriac]

Just now, wadesmith said:

I think we'll just go ahead and put you down as 'not sure'

Or just go with what I've actually said rather than what you imagine I may have said. 

[wadesmith]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Or just go with what I've actually said rather than what you imagine I may have said. 

Yeah.

[Lighthouse]

Interestingly 6 of the 20 F1 drivers on the grid for today’s Austrian Grand Prix refused to take a knee. Fair play to them for not giving in to Hamilton, who is coming across more and more as a belligerent kn*b.