Re-examining and learning from history

[hypochondriac]

Just now, whelk said:

For the record and realise may not help me in Turkish’s anti-racism table but I think police taking the knee is pathetic.

Glad we can reach some agreement then! It's laughable. 

[hypochondriac]

Any guesses what this racist graffiti was like? 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Any guesses what this racist graffiti was like? 

 

 

Edited 25 June, 2020 by Weston Super Saint
Picture found

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

 

It's a fair cop I hadn't seen the white power bit... 

[Earthworm Jim]

34 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's a fair cop I hadn't seen the white power bit... 

What the difference between "white power" and "white lives matter"? By the fact the perpetrator is the same person I'd guess not a lot. 

Edited 25 June, 2020 by Earthworm Jim

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

What the difference between "white power" and "white lives matter"? By the fact the perpetrator is the same person I'd guess not a lot. 

I can see why it would be difficult for someone like you to tell the difference... 

[Manuel]

Direct these spray-happy chumps to a suitable online forum or the youtube comments section and leave them there.  Poorly written slogans on your local bus shelter is not acceptable no matter what the cause.  

Who's going to want to sit there now?

Edited 25 June, 2020 by Manuel

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

Direct these spray-happy chumps to a suitable online forum or the youtube comments section and leave them there.  Poorly written slogans on your local bus shelter is not acceptable no matter what the cause.  

Who's going to want to sit there now?

Someone hoping for some white powder?

[verlaine1979]

On 6/24/2020 at 1:18 PM, hypochondriac said:

I can definitely support arguments to make sensible adjustments to our economic system in order to make it fairer and improve things but that isn't the same as destroying the capitalist system which is insane, I think there are issues on both sides of the gender divide which could do with being sorted (see well known left winger jk Rowling and the abuse she has received lately and things like parental rights for fathers which I'm very passionate about and I'm a chair of a charity which seeks to tackle that particular injustice.) and undoubtedly race relations could be improved, just not by dividing everyone down racial lines and judging people because of their skin colour. 

So the answer is no I don't want to just keep the status quo and I don't believe any of those viewpoints are particularly "right wing". 

Hmm, so you're eager for things to change, you just don't support anything that anyone else has suggested to date. Got it.

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

Hmm, so you're eager for things to change, you just don't support anything that anyone else has suggested to date. Got it.

Again not sure where you got that from. I'm not eager for things to change to the extent that you seem to be suggesting, I'm happy to adopt some fairer policies if I believe they are workable, fair and result in a better way of life for more people. I don't support the overthrow of the capitalist system, I don't support the destruction of the nuclear family, I don't support defunding of the police without a detailed and workable alternative. If you've got an idea for what destroying the capitalist system means that fills in the blanks there so that it's magically better than our current system then I'm all ears. If there are viable alternatives that offer an improvement then I'm sure they'd gain widespread popular support and would eventually be voted into power. It's incredibly easy for angry student types, bedroom revolutionaries and antifa to rage against the system and it makes them feel good but they can't offer something better which is why corbyn got destroyed at the election (let's remember he was pointing to Venezuela as worthy of praise ffs) and why the likes of Alexendria Ocassio Cortez in America is confined to a fringe wing of her party and is roundly mocked. 

Now seeing as I've answered all the questions you've asked me, it would be good if you could point me to examples of other nations outside of the capitalist system that have been more successful or where the destruction of the nuclear family and the defunding of police have resulted in better outcomes. 

Edited 25 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[scally]

14 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Of all the anti BLM arguments this one has to be the shittist. If you are claiming there was no revulsion when he was killed then you are very wrong.

What were doing to campaign about the awful death by police of Tony Timpa, did you even care about it a month ago or is it just a convenient flag to now wave.

Tony Timpa was schizophrenic and deaths of disabled and mentally ill people at the hands of police are 16 times higher than other Americans and is a national disgrace that is campaigned against https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/key-issues/criminalization-of-mental-illness/2976-people-with-untreated-mental-illness-16-times-more-likely-to-be-killed-by-law-enforcement- and another example of the failure of funding the police to military levels at the sake of social services.

I sure his mum is pleased you are now willing to take up his cause, keep us posted.

If you take the time to watch this video then maybe you'll understand that Tony Timpa is not an isolated case. The problem is that when a black person gets killed by the police everybody shares the shit out of it, when it's a white guy nobody gives a shit so you end up with everybody thinking that it's always black people that get attacked by the police.

 

 

[st.bangkok]

6 hours ago, scally said:

 

Exactly my point, but of course the lefty loons will refuse to acknowledge that. No one protested about white lives matter or went rioting and beating the living hell out of others after this happend to poor old Tony Timpa. But when a black guy gets killed, it is all over the media. Why? Come on people from the left, tell us why did no one go rioting or make a campaign when a white guy suffered the same fate?

[Weston Super Saint]

There seems to be a pattern emerging.  Is there still a restriction of no more than 6 people in a gathering?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53188547

Quote

Police officers have been attacked while attempting to disperse crowds at an illegal party for the second night in a row.

The Met Police said objects were thrown at officers at an "unlicensed music event" in Notting Hill, west London, in the early hours of Friday.

 

[Fan The Flames]

15 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Any guesses what this racist graffiti was like? 

A little reminder that some people who use the term WLM are racist. Just like some people who use the term BLM are racist. I'm glad we have cleared that up.

Edited 26 June, 2020 by Fan The Flames

[Turkish]

11 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Hmm, so you're eager for things to change, you just don't support anything that anyone else has suggested to date. Got it.

So how much of the stuff so far has worked? Give us a few examples so we can all get behind them.

[st.bangkok]

13 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

What the difference between "white power" and "white lives matter"? By the fact the perpetrator is the same person I'd guess not a lot. 

What the difference between "black power" and "black lives matter"?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

A little reminder that some people who use the term WLM are racist. Just like some people who use the term BLM are racist. I'm glad we have cleared that up.

Agreed. That's rather stating the obvious I would have thought 

[skintsaint]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-26/the-dixie-chick-change-band-name-to-the-chicks/12395730

Next week they will be called 'the' as the new name objectifies women...

[hypochondriac]

And people wonder why there's accusations of a two tier police system and a system of laws that only apply to some groups and not others? The cat I'd be interested in your view. 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

And people wonder why there's accusations of a two tier police system and a system of laws that only apply to some groups and not others? The cat I'd be interested in your view. 

The way I read it, a section 14 only applies to 'organised' gatherings, so there would be nothing to stop people from turning up 'ad-hoc' and counter protesting.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1986/64/section/14#:~:text=he may give directions imposing,to prevent such disorder%2C damage%2C

Would certainly be a dilemma for the police if that happened and interesting to see how they would police that - potentially could make matters worse if they are heavy handed with one group but not another....

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

And people wonder why there's accusations of a two tier police system and a system of laws that only apply to some groups and not others? The cat I'd be interested in your view. 

Just looks like the sensible thing to do, don’t want any statue protectors getting beaten up again.

If the white power/statue lovers want to hold their own demo they would be better off doing it on another day to save any trouble - surely that’s in everyone’s interests?

 

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

They’re not even trying to hide it now. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

22 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

And people wonder why there's accusations of a two tier police system and a system of laws that only apply to some groups and not others? The cat I'd be interested in your view. 

This is where we end up.

 

Police refused to break up an illegal gathering in Manchester because many of the people attending had attended a BLM demo earlier. Guess what happened at the event they refused to police properly and break up, despite local residents pleas? 

 

2 people were shot dead. 
 

Here’s the police statement. 

'It had gone very well, it was good natured and a later party started and some of the same people who had been at the earlier event drifted across to nearby streets where the second after-party took place.

'The police officers on the ground took the view because they had supported the earlier event it would not make sense to local people if they started to try and disperse this event’

[aintforever]

Man dies, woman raped and three stabbed at party that had absolutely nothing to do with BLM shock:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-53040827

[Turkish]

38 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Man dies, woman raped and three stabbed at party that had absolutely nothing to do with BLM shock:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-53040827

Great observation pal. A tremendous way to prove BLM protests were largely peaceful is to point out every single other crime that is committed anywhere in the country. 

[Manuel]

At the start of the article it states "a woman has been raped".  Judge and jury?

Later..."We are also investigating the rape of an 18-year-old woman..."  That's more like it.  

I wonder why the BBC would present the article in this way.  Journalism of the very poorest standard or deliberate?  

 

 

[Batman]

Some good learning going on here...

 

 

[Turkish]

Take that racism. another giant step forward 

 

https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/26/master-bedroom-canceled-houston-realtors-texas-slavery-connotation-primary-bedroom/

[whelk]

Not the right thread but Graham Linehan removed from Twitter for hateful conduct towards Trans people. Seems mental but that platform not going to have much of a future if they remove people like him. JK Rowling next?

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Not the right thread but Graham Linehan removed from Twitter for hateful conduct towards Trans people. Seems mental but that platform not going to have much of a future if they remove people like him. JK Rowling next?

He's been in a twitter war with people for ages. He does seem a bit of a berk on there but obviously once you upset the trans lobby he will have had an army reporting every tweet he makes so it was only a matter of time. You can get banned on twitter for ridiculous things anyway when it comes to trans things like so called "deadnaming" and referring to someone like Bruce Jenner as a he so it's not much of a surprise. 

Jk is much too big to get banned I expect but it's rather amusing that someone as right on and woke as she is can also get eaten by her "side" for the crime of calling a woman a woman. 

Edited 27 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

11 hours ago, Manuel said:

At the start of the article it states "a woman has been raped".  Judge and jury?

Later..."We are also investigating the rape of an 18-year-old woman..."  That's more like it.  

I wonder why the BBC would present the article in this way.  Journalism of the very poorest standard or deliberate?  

 

 

Probably this. The standard of journalism in general, and on the Beeb particularly, has dropped severely over the last few years.

[Earthworm Jim]

On 6/26/2020 at 8:49 AM, st.bangkok said:

What the difference between "black power" and "black lives matter"?

Why, have they been written together on a bus stop by the same person? 

[The Cat]

On 6/26/2020 at 1:34 PM, hypochondriac said:

And people wonder why there's accusations of a two tier police system and a system of laws that only apply to some groups and not others? The cat I'd be interested in your view. 

There's been mass gatherings for weeks now which haven't been broken up. Whether that's right or wrong is a matter of opinion.

Looking at local press this seems to have been attended by a small number of people, I'm sure the police were aware of the expected numbers beforehand. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sunderlandecho.com/news/people/black-lives-matter-vigil-keel-square-passes-peacefully-2895570%3famp

There needs to be consistency though, so if there was or is an event arranged by other protest groups which the police have turned everyone away from it wouldn't be fair.

[Turkish]

This BLM protestors doing a great job for the cause by explaining in a calm and measured manner what she believes in

 

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

Why, have they been written together on a bus stop by the same person? 

What point would it prove if they were? I could walk up to my local bus stop and spray, "gas the Jews!" And, "I like McVities Gold Bars!" On the side, it wouldn’t make the two synonymous. WLM might be a bit of a bonehead thing to write but it doesn’t convey the same authority and suppression that Is implied by the phrase ‘white power’.

[hypochondriac]

40 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

What point would it prove if they were? I could walk up to my local bus stop and spray, "gas the Jews!" And, "I like McVities Gold Bars!" On the side, it wouldn’t make the two synonymous. WLM might be a bit of a bonehead thing to write but it doesn’t convey the same authority and suppression that Is implied by the phrase ‘white power’.

Absolutely. 

[shurlock]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

What point would it prove if they were? I could walk up to my local bus stop and spray, "gas the Jews!" And, "I like McVities Gold Bars!" On the side, it wouldn’t make the two synonymous. WLM might be a bit of a bonehead thing to write but it doesn’t convey the same authority and suppression that Is implied by the phrase ‘white power’.

Jesus wept.

There is zero context for a phrase like I like McVities Gold Bars (nice moronic strawman but perhaps someone's 'Jewish mates' can point out the latent antisemitism and enlighten me). By contrast, a statement like WLM is laden in context and baggage. Whether its on the same level as white power is debatable (WLM is certainly not as established) but at this particular cultural moment in time, with the advent of BLM, its fishing in not dissimilar waters.  Needless the darker associations of WLM are missed only by the dim, deliberately coy and more often than not outright scumbags.

#whatacoincidence #ilikemcvitiesgoldbars

 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

It's not debatable that white lives matter doesn't share the same cultural and historical baggage that white power does. 

[st.bangkok]

5 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

Why, have they been written together on a bus stop by the same person? 

I asked because you felt there was no difference between white lives matter and white power, so i assumed you would realise the same applies to BLM and BP. Or do different rules apply to black people and statements they make?

[aintforever]

21 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

I asked because you felt there was no difference between white lives matter and white power, so i assumed you would realise the same applies to BLM and BP. Or do different rules apply to black people and statements they make?

It’s all about context though isn’t it. If we lived in a country where white people were historically used as slaves, had suffered centuries of oppression and still today were a minority suffering from racial discrimination and abuse then statements like WLM and white power would have a completely different meaning.

As it stands, where we are today, statements like that are not a call for equality, they are the opposite.

 

[st.bangkok]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s all about context though isn’t it. If we lived in a country where white people were historically used as slaves, had suffered centuries of oppression and still today were a minority suffering from racial discrimination and abuse then statements like WLM and white power would have a completely different meaning.

As it stands, where we are today, statements like that are not a call for equality, they are the opposite.

 

So white people never suffered long term slavery and oppresion? 

[aintforever]

13 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

So white people never suffered long term slavery and oppresion? 

Of course people of all colours have at some point. I think we can all agree that the history of black people and the issues they have faced in the uk is very different to that of white though. 

[Weston Super Saint]

27 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It’s all about context though isn’t it. If we lived in a country where white people were historically used as slaves, had suffered centuries of oppression and still today were a minority suffering from racial discrimination and abuse then statements like WLM and white power would have a completely different meaning.

As it stands, where we are today, statements like that are not a call for equality, they are the opposite.

 

We DO live in a country where white people were historically used as slaves and suffered centuries of oppression.

Does that mean that statements like WLM and white power have a different meaning?

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Of course people of all colours have at some point. I think we can all agree that the history of black people and the issues they have faced in the uk is very different to that of white though. 

What issues did black people face in the UK?

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, shurlock said:

Jesus wept.

There is zero context for a phrase like I like McVities Gold Bars (nice moronic strawman but perhaps someone's 'Jewish mates' can point out the latent antisemitism and enlighten me). By contrast, a statement like WLM is laden in context and baggage. Whether its on the same level as white power is debatable (WLM is certainly not as established) but at this particular cultural moment in time, with the advent of BLM, its fishing in not dissimilar waters.  Needless the darker associations of WLM are missed only by the dim, deliberately coy and more often than not outright scumbags.

#whatacoincidence #ilikemcvitiesgoldbars

 

It's not a moronic strawman, it was a facetious example to illustrate my point; just because two statements are made by the same person in the same place, it doesn't mean they equate to the same thing, which is what EJ was implying in this post below.

On 6/25/2020 at 7:27 PM, Earthworm Jim said:

What the difference between "white power" and "white lives matter"? By the fact the perpetrator is the same person I'd guess not a lot. 

If that example upsets you, then how about if a BLM supported had sprayed, "Black lives matter, white lives don't!" on the side of a bus stop? If the same person had written those two statements in the same place, would they then imply the same thing? Could the phrase, "white lives don't matter," then be extrapolated to anyone supporting the BLM movement?

[Turkish]

maybe this is worth a try, it’s certainly been my view for a long time, but I guess it does really work for people desperate to prove they aren’t racist. 

 

 

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

18 hours ago, Batman said:

Some good learning going on here...

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-53192703

Quote

"We firmly believe until black trans lives matter, absolutely everywhere, black lives broadly won't really matter anywhere," says photographer and activist Ren Mars, 25.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The BLM official twitter account doesn’t seem to think Jewish lives matter much. Engaged in a classic anti Semitic trope today. 

I guess Jews are just the wrong type of victim. 

 

Edited 28 June, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[hypochondriac]

"White trans lives matter." is that offensive? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"White trans lives matter." is that offensive? 

That’s fine. It’s only ‘white male lives matter ‘ that’s offensive.