Re-examining and learning from history

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

I wonder what would happen if a black player playing for England decided to sit out the national anthem in protest. Presumably as a defender of free expression and resistance to groupthink you'd leap to their defense?

Of course they can do that if they want to. As long as there isn't corporate pressure on them to do it then they can but I'd personally think they were a bit silly to do so. 

[verlaine1979]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Of course they can do that if they want to. As long as there isn't corporate pressure on them to do it then they can but I'd personally think they were a bit silly to do so. 

So they'd be pilloried for not going along with BLM, but widely supported for not standing for the national anthem?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, verlaine1979 said:

So they'd be pilloried for not going along with BLM, but widely supported for not standing for the national anthem?

No there'd be vilifications for both. I don't believe that there should be pressure and negative repercussions for either action. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

I don’t stand for or sing the national anthem, so would absolutely support anyone doing similar. Black or white. 

[Manuel]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Playing Devil's advocate - what is offensive about 'white lives matter' if 'black lives matter' isn't ?

I think "white lives matter" misses the point of the BLM campaign to such an extent that it could be seen as deliberately provocative and even inflammatory.  

What I can not see though is a situation where a written statement "Black lives matter" is considered acceptable whereas "white lives matter" is considered a criminal offence.  No chance will criminal charges be brought IMO.  

Best to have ignored it...but that was never going to happen.  

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Earthworm Jim said:

It's a bit like using the phrases "Call a spade a spade" or "Wait a cotton picking minute" - people know their origin but will still happily use it, safe in the knowledge that they can use the "but why does that offend anyone" defence. Unfortunately for those people, it does offend others, and the people that tend to use those phrases aren't BAME so don't appreciate the fact that it does. 

 

Those damn racist ancient Greeks have a lot to answer for!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

Not sure that people know the origin as you've demonstrated....

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Manuel said:

I think "white lives matter" misses the point of the BLM campaign to such an extent that it could be seen as deliberately provocative and even inflammatory.  

What I can not see though is a situation where a written statement "Black lives matter" is considered acceptable whereas "white lives matter" is considered a criminal offence.  No chance will criminal charges be brought IMO.  

Best to have ignored it...but that was never going to happen.  

Agree with all of that but I've been wrong before with nonsense in the courts. Like you say it was never going to be ignored but it would have been much better if it had been. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Those damn racist ancient Greeks have a lot to answer for!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

Not sure that people know the origin as you've demonstrated....

People delving into history to try to find a phrase that's offensive and then getting it wrong is a real pet hate of mine. 

[Lighthouse]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/53159686
 

You’d have thought someone might have pointed this out earlier.

[skintsaint]

58 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/53159686
 

You’d have thought someone might have pointed this out earlier.

Bet that driver feels a bit silly now.

[Picard]

6 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/53159686
 

You’d have thought someone might have pointed this out earlier.

Fake noose.

[hypochondriac]

6 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/motorsport/53159686
 

You’d have thought someone might have pointed this out earlier.

Lol. Almost jussie smollet levels of idiocy. 

[Earthworm Jim]

11 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

People delving into history to try to find a phrase that's offensive and then getting it wrong is a real pet hate of mine. 

 

11 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Those damn racist ancient Greeks have a lot to answer for!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_spade_a_spade

Not sure that people know the origin as you've demonstrated....

Look, it's fine if you want to use pedantry to get around the point - I'm assuming you both don't have an issue with the phrase, being middle-aged white men. The fact the phrase has racist connotations is undeniable though, it even makes reference to it in your Wikipedia article. 

Anyway, if you want to plead ignorance, that's fine, you just prove the point I made. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade?t=1592944853643

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

Look, it's fine if you want to use pedantry to get around the point - I'm assuming you both don't have an issue with the phrase, being middle-aged white men. The fact the phrase has racist connotations is undeniable though, it even makes reference to it in your Wikipedia article. 

Anyway, if you want to plead ignorance, that's fine, you just prove the point I made. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade?t=1592944853643

How do you know I'm either white or middle aged? That's quite an assumption. 

[Earthworm Jim]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How do you know I'm either white or middle aged? That's quite an assumption. 

The way you seem to write about racism is that of an over-priveledged white man. Are you white and middle aged? 

Edited 24 June, 2020 by Earthworm Jim

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Earthworm Jim said:

Are you white and middle aged? 

No. 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

The way you seem to write about racism is that of an over-priveledged white man. Are you white and middle aged? 

Sorry but I don't identify with silly labels like "over-priveledged white man". You sound ridiculous and maybe we should start calling a spade a spade and say that frankly you sound  a little bit racist. 

Edited 24 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[StDunko]

"Ruddy" coloured and middle aged, rather than white and middle aged? 

[hypochondriac]

26 minutes ago, StDunko said:

"Ruddy" coloured and middle aged, rather than white and middle aged? 

I'll leave that for you to fantasise over. 

[sadoldgit]

I don’t know what happened since Steve changed the site over, but not only has hypo’s avatar become even more annoying but he seems to have gone into hyperdrive and has swamped the site with posts. 
 

There was a very good programme on Panorama this week about the rise of the neo-Nazis but no mention of the alt-right taking over football Internet forums!

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t know what happened since Steve changed the site over, but not only has hypo’s avatar become even more annoying but he seems to have gone into hyperdrive and has swamped the site with posts. 
 

There was a very good programme on Panorama this week about the rise of the neo-Nazis but no mention of the alt-right taking over football Internet forums!

mention Neo Nazis ✔️

Mention a BBC program or Guardian Article ✔️

Accuse others of being racist ✔️

Pious tone to post ✔️

Soggy is back in form and show a great ability to be condense all go to points in one post. Soggy extends his lead at the top of the Gary Linekar award for the least racist poster, time to up your game aintforever, Whelk and all.

Edited 24 June, 2020 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t know what happened since Steve changed the site over, but not only has hypo’s avatar become even more annoying but he seems to have gone into hyperdrive and has swamped the site with posts. 
 

There was a very good programme on Panorama this week about the rise of the neo-Nazis but no mention of the alt-right taking over football Internet forums!

I'd be really interested to hear your definition of the alt right. Seeing as you like to call everyone else by it I assume you have a quite precise working definition. 

[Plastic]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Soggy is back in form and show a great ability to be condense all go to points in one post. Soggy extends his lead at the top of the Gary Linekar award for the least racist poster table.

[buctootim]

35 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t know what happened since Steve changed the site over, but not only has hypo’s avatar become even more annoying but he seems to have gone into hyperdrive and has swamped the site with posts. 
 

There was a very good programme on Panorama this week about the rise of the neo-Nazis but no mention of the alt-right taking over football Internet forums!

Just right click on his avatar and select 'block element' . Remember though he isnt alt-right, he's floating middle....

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Just right click on his avatar and select 'block element' . Remember though he isnt alt-right, he's floating middle....

Interesting Tim. Care to offer a definition yourself? 

[buctootim]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

No. 

Yeah you are 

[buctootim]

Self definition on here is worthless - for example you define yourself as middle of the road, unaligned and open minded. Much better to judge people on what they say about others than what they say about themselves.  

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Yeah you are 

No I'm not. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Self definition on here is worthless - for example you define yourself as middle of the road, unaligned and open minded. Much better to judge people on what they say about others than what they say about themselves.  

That's a no then. I'd suggest not using terms for people when you can't even define the words. 

Edited 24 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

Piers is hilarious 

[Manuel]

Turns out the chump who flew the banner will not face charges.  Police do not consider a crime has been committed.  Good decision.  Idiots should be able to say things (within reason). 

He has lost his job though.  Can't imagine on what grounds.  Doesn't really fit a gross misconduct charge as far as I can see.  Should probably consider legal advice.  

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, Manuel said:

Turns out the chump who flew the banner will not face charges.  Police do not consider a crime has been committed.  Good decision.  Idiots should be able to say things (within reason). 

He has lost his job though.  Can't imagine on what grounds.  Doesn't really fit a gross misconduct charge as far as I can see.  Should probably consider legal advice.  

His employer can claim he is 'bringing the company into disrepute' - however, I suspect a tribunal would look dimly on that (if he is illegible to start procedings) as the police have decided not to prosecute.  They would need to put forward a strong argument for 'morality'.  I suspect they made the decision in haste before the police decided not to prosecute.  Still, if he has less than 2 year's service it won't matter a jot!

[wadesmith]

The thing about the white lives matter/all lives matter squad, is that it's really hard to engage in any sort of debate with them. If they genuinley think that 'Black lives Matter' means the 'White Lives Don't Matter' then one of two things is going on. The first is they are just trolling, so any engagement with them  is a waste of time..the second is maybe they genuinely think it means  'White Lives Don't Matter' if that's the case (& I don't believe they think that is the case btw) then they just have don't have  the intelligence to view something within any sort of  historical/social context therefore  any sort of debate will be a bit of a waste of time. Do these people pass 'Help the Aged' shops and yell through the doors, 'What about people with cancer you mugs, are we not helping them!???!"

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

Look, it's fine if you want to use pedantry to get around the point - I'm assuming you both don't have an issue with the phrase, being middle-aged white men. The fact the phrase has racist connotations is undeniable though, it even makes reference to it in your Wikipedia article. 

Anyway, if you want to plead ignorance, that's fine, you just prove the point I made. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/09/19/224183763/is-it-racist-to-call-a-spade-a-spade?t=1592944853643

Your original quote was people not knowing the origin.  The ancient Greeks did not invent a racist saying.  Even the article you linked to does not state that it is a racist slogan - it finishes by suggesting that some people may take offence and even defines the proverb as 'innocuous'.

Not exactly conclusive proof of racism.

 

Quote

So what does all of this mean for people who want to, well, "call a spade a spade"? I urge caution. Mieder concludes his case study with the argument that "to call a spade a spade" should be retired from modern usage: "Rather than taking the chance of unintentionally offending someone or of being misunderstood, it is best to relinquish the old innocuous proverbial expression all together."

 

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I'd be really interested to hear your definition of the alt right. Seeing as you like to call everyone else by it I assume you have a quite precise working definition. 

It’s anyone that doesn’t agree with him isn’t it? Time and again anyone that doesn’t agree with him is accused of being right wing or racist. He totally embarrassed himself this week on TUI when he called someone that didn’t agree with him the tommy Robinson of the TUI, turned out the weekend before the person had raised £20k for the black curriculum charity. Don’t agree with soggy expect a to be labelled a racist, it’s hilarious how he also claims the right wing tactics are to get angry if people don’t agree with him. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

Turns out the chump who flew the banner will not face charges.  Police do not consider a crime has been committed.  Good decision.  Idiots should be able to say things (within reason). 

He has lost his job though.  Can't imagine on what grounds.  Doesn't really fit a gross misconduct charge as far as I can see.  Should probably consider legal advice.  

Good. Think we can all agree on that. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It’s anyone that doesn’t agree with him isn’t it? Time and again anyone that doesn’t agree with him is accused of being right wing or racist. He totally embarrassed himself this week on TUI when he called someone that didn’t agree with him the tommy Robinson of the TUI, turned out the weekend before the person had raised £20k for the black curriculum charity. Don’t agree with soggy expect a to be labelled a racist, it’s hilarious how he also claims the right wing tactics are to get angry if people don’t agree with him. 

You're right and it's why he won't offer any definition of what he means by alt right. 

[hypochondriac]

This has been an interesting conversation so far and worth a watch for people with an open mind. For anyone who doesn't have the time it's a black man giving his reasons why he doesn't support BLM. Makes some good points imo. It would blow soggy's mind I'm sure but he won't watch it. 

 

 

Edited 24 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[whelk]

1 hour ago, wadesmith said:

The thing about the white lives matter/all lives matter squad, is that it's really hard to engage in any sort of debate with them. If they genuinley think that 'Black lives Matter' means the 'White Lives Don't Matter' then one of two things is going on. The first is they are just trolling, so any engagement with them  is a waste of time..the second is maybe they genuinely think it means  'White Lives Don't Matter' if that's the case (& I don't believe they think that is the case btw) then they just have don't have  the intelligence to view something within any sort of  historical/social context therefore  any sort of debate will be a bit of a waste of time. Do these people pass 'Help the Aged' shops and yell through the doors, 'What about people with cancer you mugs, are we not helping them!???!"

It’s ultimately insecurity. As the Sky Sports chap said it is a cry for help not an attack on white people. 
Zero empathy and they deny they need any help because they think they know it all from their own experience. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You're right and it's why he won't offer any definition of what he means by alt right. 

Has he got American relatives? 
 

 

[wadesmith]

Just now, whelk said:

It’s ultimately insecurity. As the Sky Sports chap said it is a cry for help not an attack on white people. 
Zero empathy and they deny they need any help because they think they know it all from their own experience. 

Well yeah, ultimately they feel threatened..& if I'm playing devils advocate who can blame them?. If someones white & middle aged (just an example!!) then why do they want to get behind Black Lives Matters?. What's in it for them?. They've got 25/30 years left on the planet & quick look at the stats shows Black People made up 9% of britains unemployed compared to a national rate of 4%. Britain's BAME population is 14%, yet they make up 25% of the prison population, whats their motivation t try and even things up?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

It’s ultimately insecurity. As the Sky Sports chap said it is a cry for help not an attack on white people. 
Zero empathy and they deny they need any help because they think they know it all from their own experience. 

I find it odd that the BLM supporters on here continually chiding people with a different opinion for lacking empathy have shown zero empathy for the minorities who don't support BLM, for the police who have been injured and killed, for the business owners who have had their lives destroyed and for the innocent people who would be negatively impacted were black lives matter able to successfully defund the police, end the family unit and end capitalism. 

This fabled empathy that blm supporters like to claim they possess to a greater degree than others seems incredibly selective. 

[wadesmith]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I find it odd that the BLM supporters on here continually chiding people with a different opinion for lacking empathy have shown zero empathy for the minorities who don't support BLM, for the police who have been injured and killed, for the business owners who have had their lives destroyed and for the innocent people who would be negatively impacted were black lives matter able to successfully defund the police, end the family unit and end capitalism. 

This fabled empathy that blm supporters like to claim they possess to a greater degree than others seems incredibly selective. 

I've shown empathy in the post above yours, I've ruminated on why certain sections of the population may not support 'BLM" & attempted to see it through someone else's eyes, prism, social position,, whatever you want to call it.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, wadesmith said:

I've shown empathy in the post above yours, I've ruminated on why certain sections of the population may not support 'BLM" & attempted to see it through someone else's eyes, prism, social position,, whatever you want to call it.

Could there be other reasons for a higher black prison population do you think beyond simply discrimination and racism? 

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I find it odd that the BLM supporters on here continually chiding people with a different opinion for lacking empathy have shown zero empathy for the minorities who don't support BLM, for the police who have been injured and killed, for the business owners who have had their lives destroyed and for the innocent people who would be negatively impacted were black lives matter able to successfully defund the police, end the family unit and end capitalism. 

This fabled empathy that blm supporters like to claim they possess to a greater degree than others seems incredibly selective. 

You’re fooling no-one with your MLG type autistic obsession of trying to win an argument.

what about the flying bike,  the flying bike and the graffiti?

 

 

Edited 24 June, 2020 by whelk

[hypochondriac]

Just now, whelk said:

Your fooling no-one with your MLG type autistic obsession of trying to win an argument.

what about the flying bike,  the flying bike and the graffiti?

 

 

I see your post is choc full of that fabled empathy you were banging on about. You're so virtuous. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I see your post is choc full of that fabled empathy you were banging on about. You're so virtuous. 

Don’t claim to be. that’s how you see things, how can they support a cause they are not saints.

Clearly you have educated yourself and listenEd to lots of intelligent people  speaking on behalf of BLM but would rather come down on the side of some racist half-wit who flies a banner. 

 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, whelk said:

Don’t claim to be. that’s how you see things, how can they support a cause they are not saints.

Clearly you have educated yourself and listenEd to lots of intelligent people  speaking on behalf of BLM but would rather come down on the side of some racist half-wit who flies a banner. 

 

Please find the post where I've said the bloke flying the plane over was a good idea? I think you'll find I've said the opposite. 

[Hockey_saint]

2 hours ago, Manuel said:

Turns out the chump who flew the banner will not face charges.  Police do not consider a crime has been committed.  Good decision.  Idiots should be able to say things (within reason). 

He has lost his job though.  Can't imagine on what grounds.  Doesn't really fit a gross misconduct charge as far as I can see.  Should probably consider legal advice.  

His girlfriend has too. I don't think there would be much grounds for an appeal as he would appear to have sullied the image of his company as a representative of theirs concerning race relations so the grounds are there for him to be sacked.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Hockey_saint said:

His girlfriend has too. I don't think there would be much grounds for an appeal as he would appear to have sullied the image of his company as a representative of theirs concerning race relations so the grounds are there for him to be sacked.

I don't think he can have many complaints. He must have known the score when he did it.