Re-examining and learning from history

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Batman said:

Just read that Gary Linekar is actually a racist

 

My word!

How do you know, does he have a badge or a secret handshake?

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Batman said:

Given much of this nonsense has been about slavery; not a peep about modern day slavery or the role of other cultures in the barbaric trade. Given the UK is such a diverse nation, amazed that the faux anger is only directed in one area.

Just seems that historic british slavery that not a single person alive has anything to do with, is bad (along with America), all other slavery is not worth talking about ...almost as if this is a culture war...

If anyone in the public eye does not take the knee, their career is at best severely damaged for a while, or probably finished

Oh then there is the Marxist aims around BLM, which of course, must not be debated by the MSM.

I believe Pakistan is one of the worst culprits when it comes to modern slavery. Khan who has spent all week pontificating over BLM and can’t tell us enough that he’s the “son of a Pakistani bus driver”, yet during a visit to the country said absolutely nothing, zip, about modern slavery. Perhaps those lives don’t matter , or they have the wrong skin colour. 
 

Are premier league players going to “take the knee” during the Qatar World Cup, I believe some of the stadiums are even being built by modern slaves. 
 

 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Batman said:

Given much of this nonsense has been about slavery; not a peep about modern day slavery or the role of other cultures in the barbaric trade. Given the UK is such a diverse nation, amazed that the faux anger is only directed in one area.

Just seems that historic british slavery that not a single person alive has anything to do with, is bad (along with America), all other slavery is not worth talking about ...almost as if this is a culture war...

If anyone in the public eye does not take the knee, their career is at best severely damaged for a while, or probably finished

Oh then there is the Marxist aims around BLM, which of course, must not be debated by the MSM.

You've mentioned modern day slavery a lot in the last two weeks (but you never mentioned it before hmmm), so I look forward to you campaigning for your newly found cause. What are going to do about MDS?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

You've mentioned modern day slavery a lot in the last two weeks (but you never mentioned it before hmmm), so I look forward to you campaigning for your newly found cause. What are going to do about MDS?

Think you've missed the point. Batman isn't the one actively campaigning about the evils of historical slavery. It seems to me that if slavery were a huge overriding concern to you that you'd be better served tackling slavery that is actually occurring now rather than slavery that happened hundreds of years ago that no one alive has ever been involved in. 

[Lighthouse]

53 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I believe Pakistan is one of the worst culprits when it comes to modern slavery. Khan who has spent all week pontificating over BLM and can’t tell us enough that he’s the “son of a Pakistani bus driver”, yet during a visit to the country said absolutely nothing, zip, about modern slavery. Perhaps those lives don’t matter , or they have the wrong skin colour. 
 

Are premier league players going to “take the knee” during the Qatar World Cup, I believe some of the stadiums are even being built by modern slaves. 
 

 

Some? The who country is built by people who are little more than slaves. Same as the UAE and a few other places in that region. It’ll be interesting to see how many players boycott the tournament. 

[CB Fry]

It's a bit of a fallacy that BLM is somehow overly focused on historical slavery. It clearly isn't. It's just the statue story is far easier to generate TV debates with Carole Malone or Nick Ferrari spaffing on. Far better to chat sh it about that than the much more nuanced conversation about equality in the UK and what steps can actually be taken to change things

And absolutely hilarious we now have recruited some passionate campaigners against modern slavery. I have no doubt over the coming months and years they will be giving our sovereign, independent government absolute HELL about their policies on this, including our relationship with any other nation that supports slavery. Because it's so important to them. Bravo chaps for making a stand. Let me know the GoFundMe link when you've set it up.

And interesting to see the person responsible for taking down all slavery in Pakistan is our sovereign foreign secretary, oh no sorry, it's our sovereign Prime oh no sorry. It's actually the Mayor of London, isn't that convenient. A brown person is to blame, let's blame the brown man. Just like the only paedophiles in the world are the brown men in Bradford.

Lord Duckhunter on this topic has really come out of his shell to show us what an absolute racist piece of crap he truly is.

[aintforever]

54 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Think you've missed the point. Batman isn't the one actively campaigning about the evils of historical slavery. It seems to me that if slavery were a huge overriding concern to you that you'd be better served tackling slavery that is actually occurring now rather than slavery that happened hundreds of years ago that no one alive has ever been involved in. 

The issue is racism, that's why our history of slavery is been mentioned. That doesn't make modern day slavery any less of an issue.

[Weston Super Saint]

34 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The issue is racism, that's why our history of slavery is been mentioned. That doesn't make modern day slavery any less of an issue.

Is there no racism involved with modern day slavery?

[sadoldgit]

I see the tactic of deflection is once again in full swing, something that the right use a lot. Instead of dealing with the issue they create a tangent that has little to do with the main issue so that they can deflect from that issue and also detract from its importance. The Tory Party do it with monotonous regularity as do their supporters on social media. It seems to be the rule now, down answer the question just create your own. 
 

Modern day slavery has little to do with what is happening in the BLM protests. If the usual suspects want to deal with that, why not create a new thread for it?  For some here the issues of racial inequality do not seem to exist on the scales that they clearly do. Instead of getting wound up about people kneeling down, perhaps give more thought to why they are doing it in the first place.

[hypochondriac]

43 minutes ago, aintforever said:

The issue is racism, that's why our history of slavery is been mentioned. That doesn't make modern day slavery any less of an issue.

But modern day slavery does involve racism? And its happening now, you would think it would be a much greater concern to anti racism campaigners as somethibg that could actually make a real difference now. It's a bit like lgbt activists who always seem very angry about perceived injustices in the west but have very little by comparison to say about Islamic countries where rights are violated to a much greater degree. 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I see the tactic of deflection is once again in full swing, something that the right use a lot. Instead of dealing with the issue they create a tangent that has little to do with the main issue so that they can deflect from that issue and also detract from its importance. The Tory Party do it with monotonous regularity as do their supporters on social media. It seems to be the rule now, down answer the question just create your own. 
 

Modern day slavery has little to do with what is happening in the BLM protests. If the usual suspects want to deal with that, why not create a new thread for it?  For some here the issues of racial inequality do not seem to exist on the scales that they clearly do. Instead of getting wound up about people kneeling down, perhaps give more thought to why they are doing it in the first place.

For some black people racial inequality does not exist on the scale that you believe that it does. 

[Weston Super Saint]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Modern day slavery has little to do with what is happening in the BLM protests. If the usual suspects want to deal with that, why not create a new thread for it?  

Surely this is the thread for it?  Modern slavery wouldn't exist if we had already re-examined and learnt from history would it?

[hypochondriac]

45 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Surely this is the thread for it?  Modern slavery wouldn't exist if we had already re-examined and learnt from history would it?

It's terribly arrogant to proclaim that discussion of modern day slavery is not a relevant topic when discussing learning from the past. 

[aintforever]

54 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

But modern day slavery does involve racism? And its happening now, you would think it would be a much greater concern to anti racism campaigners as somethibg that could actually make a real difference now. It's a bit like lgbt activists who always seem very angry about perceived injustices in the west but have very little by comparison to say about Islamic countries where rights are violated to a much greater degree. 

Not sure what your point is. There are plenty of LGBT people concerned about their rights in Islamic countries, likewise modern day slavery is an important issue. It doesn't make anti-racism campaigners any less concerned about racism in the west.

 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Not sure what your point is. There are plenty of LGBT people concerned about their rights in Islamic countries, likewise modern day slavery is an important issue. It doesn't make anti-racism campaigners any less concerned about racism in the west.

 

I haven't seen campaigns against modern day slavery with anything like the same level of engagement which I would have thought would be of greater importance for those who view historic slavery as such a huge modern day problem. I actually agree with cb fry that if there's actual grievances that can be defined and tackled then that's a good thing. At the moment we seem to have some of that and then a hell of a lot of twitter mobs, outrage at statues, removing old comedies and children's TV shows, coco pops being called racist, Robert the Bruce being denounced as racist etc and then all the anti capitalist, anti family stuff I already outlined. In my opinion, virtually everyone in the UK would agree that black lives matter. The point where you're going to lose the average person is all the other stuff (and I am well aware that not every person kneeling or supporting black lives matter necessarily supports all the other stuff but a faction do and I think it's going to lose the cause support.)

[hypochondriac]

Oh dear. Rather like how coronavirus is racist as it continues to attack black people, we have now learnt the sobering news that it's anti-semitic as well. How worrying: 

 

"Jewish men are twice as likely to die with Covid-19 and Jewish women 20% more likely to die with Covid-19 than Christian men and women, according to analysis from the Office for National Statistics.

The analysis is based on deaths that occurred between 2 March and 15 May for which coronavirus was mentioned on the death certificate and that could be linked to religion from the 2011 census.

The risks for Sikhs, people who did not state a religion and people of no religion was slightly lower than for Christians."

[scally]

Just putting it out there

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-slavery/?fbclid=IwAR0r4VQ4UT13fHUc3UvYtOrHg0NC-DMFYU96qYZjNUGm8qNl7_8umzG2qw0

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Not sure what your point is. There are plenty of LGBT people concerned about their rights in Islamic countries, likewise modern day slavery is an important issue. It doesn't make anti-racism campaigners any less concerned about racism in the west.

 

I would rather footballers boycotted the Qatar World Cup as a statement against modern slavery than “take a knee”. One would send out a very real message and could even change the country, the other is a meaningless load of pony that’s easy to do. Of course, they could do both, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. 
 

Football has now put itself up as some sort of moral and just game. A game that will not tolerate racial inequality & prejudice, a game where the players “take a knee”, and have BLM on their shirts. That’s how moral and righteous they are. Now we’ve done that , let’s move on & look forward to it’s premier tournament being played in Qatar. Fuck the slaves there. 

[hypochondriac]

24 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I would rather footballers boycotted the Qatar World Cup as a statement against modern slavery than “take a knee”. One would send out a very real message and could even change the country, the other is a meaningless load of pony that’s easy to do. Of course, they could do both, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. 
 

Football has now put itself up as some sort of moral and just game. A game that will not tolerate racial inequality & prejudice, a game where the players “take a knee”, and have BLM on their shirts. That’s how moral and righteous they are. Now we’ve done that , let’s move on & look forward to it’s premier tournament being played in Qatar. Fuck the slaves there. 

I really don't think you can blame the players here. Honestly what choice do they have? Imagine if one of them didn't kneel. They'd be pilloried, called every name under the sun and probably lose their livelihood. I genuinely think if I were a young lad and skilled enough to be playing for a prem team I'd just keep my head down and kneel regardless of my personal feelings- it's not worth dissenting. 

I do agree though that I'd like to see some more action over the blatantly corrupt system that gave Qatar the world cup but unfortunately I think its too far gone. 

[buctootim]

5 hours ago, CB Fry said:

It's a bit of a fallacy that BLM is somehow overly focused on historical slavery. It clearly isn't. It's just the statue story is far easier to generate TV debates with Carole Malone or Nick Ferrari spaffing on. Far better to chat sh it about that than the much more nuanced conversation about equality in the UK and what steps can actually be taken to change things

And absolutely hilarious we now have recruited some passionate campaigners against modern slavery. I have no doubt over the coming months and years they will be giving our sovereign, independent government absolute HELL about their policies on this, including our relationship with any other nation that supports slavery. Because it's so important to them. Bravo chaps for making a stand. Let me know the GoFundMe link when you've set it up.

And interesting to see the person responsible for taking down all slavery in Pakistan is our sovereign foreign secretary, oh no sorry, it's our sovereign Prime oh no sorry. It's actually the Mayor of London, isn't that convenient. A brown person is to blame, let's blame the brown man. Just like the only paedophiles in the world are the brown men in Bradford.

Lord Duckhunter on this topic has really come out of his shell to show us what an absolute racist piece of crap he truly is.

Well said. Its been enlightening as guards have dropped just what a bunch of cnuts some of our fellow posters are.   

[aintforever]

32 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I would rather footballers boycotted the Qatar World Cup as a statement against modern slavery than “take a knee”. One would send out a very real message and could even change the country, the other is a meaningless load of pony that’s easy to do. Of course, they could do both, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. 
 

Football has now put itself up as some sort of moral and just game. A game that will not tolerate racial inequality & prejudice, a game where the players “take a knee”, and have BLM on their shirts. That’s how moral and righteous they are. Now we’ve done that , let’s move on & look forward to it’s premier tournament being played in Qatar. Fuck the slaves there. 

I hope they boycott the thing as well, BLM has never been about slavery though.

Even if they don't surely we can all agree that any stance against racial inequality & prejudice, no matter how little, is a good thing though?

[Turkish]

The thing that i struggle with about all this stuff is white people desperate to prove how they aren't racist.  It's almost like they think if you haven't done a grand show of virtue signalling recently you are racist, racist until you prove yourself not racist type attitude. It's such a tragic, desperate attitude. The worst people are the white middle class who live in little towns and probably haven't seen another non white person for years. They need to show how much they care, they need to help black people and their voice must be heard because they know what non white people need, how patronising. I cant help but think the over the top reaction is for their own benefit rather than genuinely caring that much. 

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The thing that i struggle with about all this stuff is white people desperate to prove how they aren't racist.  It's almost like they think if you haven't done a grand show of virtue signalling recently you are racist, racist until you prove yourself not racist type attitude. It's such a tragic, desperate attitude. The worst people are the white middle class who live in little towns and probably haven't seen another non white person for years. They need to show how much they care, they need to help black people and their voice must be heard because they know what non white people need, how patronising. I cant help but think the over the top reaction is for their own benefit rather than genuinely caring that much. 

Like a white bloke from Harrogate protesting on a football forum about how much his black mate chalky agrees with him. 

[aintforever]

34 minutes ago, Turkish said:

The thing that i struggle with about all this stuff is white people desperate to prove how they aren't racist.  It's almost like they think if you haven't done a grand show of virtue signalling recently you are racist, racist until you prove yourself not racist type attitude. It's such a tragic, desperate attitude. The worst people are the white middle class who live in little towns and probably haven't seen another non white person for years. They need to show how much they care, they need to help black people and their voice must be heard because they know what non white people need, how patronising. I cant help but think the over the top reaction is for their own benefit rather than genuinely caring that much. 

Think you’re missing the point somewhat, it’s not about proving anything, it’s about SHOWING you are against racism. The more people do that the more the racists among us will know that their views are outdated and unacceptable.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Think you’re missing the point somewhat, it’s not about proving anything, it’s about SHOWING you are against racism. The more people do that the more the racists among us will know that their views are outdated and unacceptable.

You believe they were previously unaware of this?

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Think you’re missing the point somewhat, it’s not about proving anything, it’s about SHOWING you are against racism. The more people do that the more the racists among us will know that their views are outdated and unacceptable.

I can't think of another time in history where it could be clearer that racist views are outdated and unacceptable. 

[wadesmith]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I can't think of another time in history where it could be clearer that racist views are outdated and unacceptable. 

You haven’t seen my Facebook feed.

[hypochondriac]

Just now, wadesmith said:

You haven’t seen my Facebook feed.

People who consider it acceptable to post openly racist statements on a public forum aren't going to stop doing that because someone kneels before a football game or puts a black square on their twitter. Sadly racism is always going to exist but all attitudes surveys demonstrate that this is the least racist that society has ever been before which is surely a good thing. 

[wadesmith]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

People who consider it acceptable to post openly racist statements on a public forum aren't going to stop doing that because someone kneels before a football game or puts a black square on their twitter. Sadly racism is always going to exist but all attitudes surveys demonstrate that this is the least racist that society has ever been before which is surely a good thing. 

Yeah, it’s a great thing, we are definitely a bit less racist than we were  40 years ago. And  hopefully we will be even less racist in the next 40 years. 

 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, wadesmith said:

Yeah, it’s a great thing, we are definitely a bit less racist than we were  40 years ago. And  hopefully we will be even less racist in the next 40 years. 

 

A bit? It's night and day. 

[wadesmith]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

A bit? It's night and day. 

Yeah, I agree, I grew up in Slough in the 70’s & it was pretty brutal. Genuine question, why do you beleive that this is the least racist society has ever been? (I agree with you btw)

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

Yeah, I agree, I grew up in Slough in the 70’s & it was pretty brutal. Genuine question, why do you beleive that this is the least racist society has ever been? (I agree with you btw)

Well for a number of reasons. There's a host of British attitude surveys which suggest that's the case, it's very obviously vastly less racist than when you could openly discriminate against someone due to their skin colour (no Irish, no blacks etc), all people are happier for a member of their family to marry someone with different colour skin than even ten years ago, there seems to be a greater number of successful black people in the UK than ever before. I read a stat the other day that higher percentages of black people now go to university than white males (I'd have to find where I read that though). I think one of the downsides of some campaigns is that it seeks to divide people on racial lines rather than focusing on what we all have in common as UK citizens. 

Edited 19 June, 2020 by hypochondriac

[shurlock]

At least, in terms of the labour market, the most rigorous evidence suggests that discrimination against particular minorities is substantial and hasn't really fallen over time.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1468-4446.12676

Edited 19 June, 2020 by shurlock

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Think you’re missing the point somewhat, it’s not about proving anything, it’s about SHOWING you are against racism. The more people do that the more the racists among us will know that their views are outdated and unacceptable.

Surely The Whole point of everyone being equal is behaving like everyone is equal. No positive discrimination, no virtue signaling, no having to show you’re against racism because everyone is, the only ones that aren’t are a mindless minority. Isn’t it  about time not being racist was just normal? You might get one or two idiots in a crowd of 50,000 but generally not being racist is for the vast majority of people unless you’re one of the loons who think a monkey on a box of coco pops means Kellogg’s are racist.

Edited 19 June, 2020 by Turkish

[badgerx16]

Katie Hopkins given a perma-ban on Twitter.

[Weston Super Saint]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Katie Hopkins given a perma-ban on Twitter.

Soggy will be apoplectic.

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I can't think of another time in history where it could be clearer that racist views are outdated and unacceptable. 

Me neither, no harm in trying to improve things tho. 

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Me neither, no harm in trying to improve things tho. 

Poverty and the popularity of the far right have always gone hand in hand, it’s an almost perfect correlation around the world. The way out of this is through jobs and education but it’ll be a slow process.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Surely The Whole point of everyone being equal is behaving like everyone is equal. No positive discrimination, no virtue signaling, no having to show you’re against racism because everyone is, the only ones that aren’t are a mindless minority. Isn’t it  about time not being racist was just normal? You might get one or two idiots in a crowd of 50,000 but generally not being racist is for the vast majority of people unless you’re one of the loons who think a monkey on a box of coco pops means Kellogg’s are racist.

Some people think that the mindless minority are too many, I fail to see the harm in some footballers trying to make a difference.

seriously, what is your issue with a bunch of lads showing support for equality? Where is the negative there?

[Lord Duckhunter]

26 minutes ago, aintforever said:

 

seriously, what is your issue with a bunch of lads showing support for equality? Where is the negative there?

Would you feel the same in Liverpool had “justice for the 96” on their shirts, after all what’s the issue with a bunch of lads showing their support for 96 of their supporters that were killed? 
 

what about Rotherham having “no to grooming gangs” on theirs A bunch of lads showing their support for the poor girls abused in their town, where is the negative there? 

[aintforever]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Would you feel the same in Liverpool had “justice for the 96” on their shirts, after all what’s the issue with a bunch of lads showing their support for 96 of their supporters that were killed? 
 

what about Rotherham having “no to grooming gangs” on theirs A bunch of lads showing their support for the poor girls abused in their town, where is the negative there? 

I wouldn’t have an issue with those either.

[Fan The Flames]

5 hours ago, aintforever said:

I wouldn’t have an issue with those either.

Nor would I, both good ideas.

[Batman]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

Nor would I, both good ideas.

What about, "no to Asian rape gangs"?

In other news, more evidence on how pathetic the (MET) police are. Just weak!

 

[eurosaint]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:12 PM, Fan The Flames said:

There's nothing to be confused about. Symbols are not allowed on international shirts. England wanted a poppy on theirs but were not allowed as FIFA have a blanket ban on 'political' symbols. Didn't they agree to let us wear poppy armbands? The FA allow poppies on club shirts and have done for years. 

When England played Scotland on the 11th November, they both wanted to have poppies on shirts but FIFA said no ! After a big hoohaa they were allowed to wear armbands !

Pep Guardiola was fined for showing support to his native Catalonia as he perceived that they were being oppressed (racist ?).

BLM (no matter the merits of it) has been treated differently and does set a precedent which will be hard to ignore when other causes come calling !

I predict some choppy times for the authorities in the near future because either you have a blanket ban on political statements or you don't !!

 

[Fan The Flames]

Personally I'm anti all rape gangs. Do you even know what point you're trying to make?

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, eurosaint said:

When England played Scotland on the 11th November, they both wanted to have poppies on shirts but FIFA said no ! After a big hoohaa they were allowed to wear armbands !

Pep Guardiola was fined for showing support to his native Catalonia as he perceived that they were being oppressed (racist ?).

BLM (no matter the merits of it) has been treated differently and does set a precedent which will be hard to ignore when other causes come calling !

I predict some choppy times for the authorities in the near future because either you have a blanket ban on political statements or you don't !!

 

It is really simple, one are international rules and the other are national rules. These things aren't allowed on international shirts but are allowed on club shirts in England. This is why the poppy is allowed on english club shirts but not on the england international shirt. BLM was on club shirts, so no contradiction. 

What would be interesting is if BLM was put on international shirts, that would then open up a whole new argument and I can see it happening.

[eurosaint]

33 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

What would be interesting is if BLM was put on international shirts, that would then open up a whole new argument and I can see it happening.

That's what I was alluding to, can see it coming as soon as the internationals start again !

Ps. The Pep Guardiola yellow ribbon was a national decision !

[Lighthouse]

We should just do it, like the Argies did with that banner. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[Fan The Flames]

It seems that the rules are the same for international and national boards, so it must be a question of interpretation. The FA interpret the poppy, BLM and NHS as non political symbols whereas FIFA operate a blanket ban for the very reasons you say. This seems like a sensible approach to me as FIFA have to govern for all countries with all their different geopolitical positions. 

The FA deemed the yellow ribbon as political as I guess it was seen as a campaign against something that had been subject to the due process of a sovereign country.

No one is really questioning having the NHS on the shirts even though there are plenty of people who don't necessarily politically agree with it.

Is BLM political, surely a call for social justice is as harmless as Children in Need.

[Fan The Flames]

14 hours ago, Turkish said:

Surely The Whole point of everyone being equal is behaving like everyone is equal. No positive discrimination, no virtue signaling, no having to show you’re against racism because everyone is, the only ones that aren’t are a mindless minority. Isn’t it  about time not being racist was just normal? You might get one or two idiots in a crowd of 50,000 but generally not being racist is for the vast majority of people unless you’re one of the loons who think a monkey on a box of coco pops means Kellogg’s are racist.

Well you must live and socialise in a really loony left progressive bubble if you think only a couple of people in 50,000 are racist. 

You and many on here seem to be more angered by virtue signally than social justice but funnily the only two people to mention having black friends are you and Hypo.