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Re-examining and learning from history


badgerx16
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22 minutes ago, Verbal said:

Wow, an entire thread full of luxury beliefs - where you can have an opinion on something that has absolutely no effect on you.

Lol.

So if something has absolutely no effect on you, then you shouldn't have an opinion on it?  Like who should play in goal or up front?  What about children's education, not going to make a single difference to pretty much everyone on here (except teachers), so no-one should have an opinion on it right?

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Just had a thought, as we are now living in a cancel culture where the BLM movements wants to tear down any negative historical history, destroy statues and basically ignore anything historical that ever happen writing history as well go, should we tear down Auchwitz too? Lets pretend that never happened as this is in line with the cancel culture that is being trumpeted.

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3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just had a thought, as we are now living in a cancel culture where the BLM movements wants to tear down any negative historical history, destroy statues and basically ignore anything historical that ever happen writing history as well go, should we tear down Auchwitz too? Lets pretend that never happened as this is in line with the cancel culture that is being trumpeted.

I'd be embarrassed by that thought tbh. The parallel is tearing down statues to top forced labour camp Kommandants or prominent Nazis. Not closing Auschwitz    

Edited by buctootim
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Just now, buctootim said:

I'd be embarrassed by that thought tbh. The parallel is tearing down statues to top forced labour camp Kommandants or prominent Nazis. Not closing Auschwitz    

Why would you be embarassed?  It's a valid point. Auchwitz is horrific,  Should we cancel any negative history whatsoever? Where does it stop? Why are only statues to be toppled?

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Just now, Turkish said:

Why would you be embarassed?  It's a valid point. Auchwitz is horrific,  Should we cancel any negative history whatsoever? Where does it stop? Why are only statues to be toppled?

If you can't see the difference between commemorating victims of an atrocity sand not celebrating the perpetrators of that atrocity then I'm not sure there is anyone who can help you. 

The more interesting question is why you devote so much mental effort to deflecting attention away from injustices and attacking those who highlight them.   

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Just now, buctootim said:

If you can't see the difference between commemorating victims of an atrocity sand not celebrating the perpetrators of that atrocity then I'm not sure there is anyone who can help you. 

The more interesting question is why you devote so much mental effort to deflecting attention away from injustices and attacking those who highlight them.   

So rather than answer the point you chose to launch another attack on me.

Auchwitz has plenty of visitors each year, should the place that is the location of the murder of thousands of people be effectively a tourist attraction? As this thread is about re-examing and learning from our history then dont you think this is worth discussion? 

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British history from Queen Elizabeth 1st onwards is almost entirely based on exploitation, persecution, conquest, and enslavement, both abroad and within the British Isles. How much is now to be recast, and who decides ?

Edited by badgerx16
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17 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

British history from Queen Elizabeth 1st onwards is almost entirely based on exploitation, persecution, conquest, and enslavement, both abroad and within the British Isles. How much is now to be recast, and who decides ?

Don't forget the paedophilia.  English and European history is full of girls married off years before the age of 16 to older men.  Things that were normal then are not tolerated now.  Times change. 

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52 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So rather than answer the point you chose to launch another attack on me.

Auchwitz has plenty of visitors each year, should the place that is the location of the murder of thousands of people be effectively a tourist attraction? As this thread is about re-examing and learning from our history then dont you think this is worth discussion? 

Do you think people are walking around grinning like they are at Thorpe Park?

Take if you haven’t been?

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4 hours ago, Turkish said:

Just had a thought, as we are now living in a cancel culture where the BLM movements wants to tear down any negative historical history, destroy statues and basically ignore anything historical that ever happen writing history as well go, should we tear down Auchwitz too? Lets pretend that never happened as this is in line with the cancel culture that is being trumpeted.

Cancel culture is perpetrated by both right and left by the way.

Is it really cancel culture to want to no longer celebrate someone from history. Take Colston for example, his stature was put up over 170 years after his death to celebrate his philanthropy, in part to cover up the shame of his slave links. It was erected to represent the values of that current generation, so it should be ok to want to remove it to reflect the values of this current generation.

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29 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Cancel culture is perpetrated by both right and left by the way.

Is it really cancel culture to want to no longer celebrate someone from history. Take Colston for example, his stature was put up over 170 years after his death to celebrate his philanthropy, in part to cover up the shame of his slave links. It was erected to represent the values of that current generation, so it should be ok to want to remove it to reflect the values of this current generation.

Who decided what gets cancelled? 

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3 hours ago, Turkish said:

No, why would they? What a strange question 

The only strange question is you asking why it isn’t viewed in the same was as statues of slave traders? Most understand that it isn’t a tourist attraction but it’s ok I am used to you struggling with parallels.

 

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3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do you think people are walking around and grinning when they visit Bodmin Jail - or do you only class amusement parks as tourist attractions?

You probably do marvelling in amazement at how the prisoners must have got caught by some high IQ policing.

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2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Who decided what gets cancelled? 

The same forces that decides why one clothing brand succeeds whilst another fails, that elevates one celebrity or song or joke over another. Cultural memes float around society and the prevalent ones become dominant.

Society is made up of thousands of sub-groups with no way of coming to a formal consenus. So some form of agreement naturally happens, but these will often be at odds with your own views. You can accept it or send some alternative memes out (which you do) and see how they get on.

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16 minutes ago, whelk said:

The only strange question is you asking why it isn’t viewed in the same was as statues of slave traders? Most understand that it isn’t a tourist attraction but it’s ok I am used to you struggling with parallels.

 

Not just statues though is it. They get rid of 100 year old paintings because they aren't diverse enough, they ban books because it might upset people as it mentions slavery, we seem to want to deal with it by erasing all evidence it ever happened. Not sure why that shouldn't apply to everything bad that ever happened in that case rather than picking and choose what to pretend never took place.

Edited by Turkish
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8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

who just reflect their viewers/readers...so everyone.

Not sure about that.  They’re more likely to be influenced by income, clicks these days, and you get lots of those by creating a stir...

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Just now, Manuel said:

Not sure about that.  They’re more likely to be influenced by income, clicks these days, and you get lots of those by creating a stir...

That's true on both sides of the argument. Much of the outrage against supposed rewriting history is whipped up by clickbait 'papers'  

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The sanctimony and judgement by these people who have never made a mistake or regretted anything in their life is funny. No real effort by anyone to get annoyed but annoyed is what you must get. Comes with every cunt putting their thoughts on social media and having less and less experience of meeting people from different walks of life.

Also comical they see a liberal like JK Rowling as someone to pile on. What is more galling is when people apologise rather than just flat out telling them to fuck off and stand their ground. 

Halfway through this book which is alarming in highlighting state of campuses in US universities. I searched for a link and found the Guardian review which typically slagged it off.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Edited by whelk
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10 hours ago, Turkish said:

Just had a thought, as we are now living in a cancel culture where the BLM movements wants to tear down any negative historical history, destroy statues and basically ignore anything historical that ever happen writing history as well go, should we tear down Auchwitz too? Lets pretend that never happened as this is in line with the cancel culture that is being trumpeted.

No we shouldn’t tear down Auchwitz...but I think any statues of Hitler should be removed. There is a difference.Statues are mainly built to honour someone’s contribution to society. Auchwitz wasn’t built to honour anything...but it’s a stark reminder of an unthinkable moment in history.Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

Edited by wadesmith
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7 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

No we shouldn’t tear down Auchwitz...but I think any statues of Hitler should be removed. There is a difference.Statues are mainly built to honour someone’s contribution to society. Auchwitz wasn’t built to honour anything...but it’s a stark reminder of an unthinkable moment in history.Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it and all that.

Aren’t we ignoring history by erasing any reference to historical slavery, racism etc?

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7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Aren’t we ignoring history by erasing any reference to historical slavery, racism etc?

 

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Aren’t we ignoring history by erasing any reference to historical slavery, racism etc?

 

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Aren’t we ignoring history by erasing any reference to historical slavery, racism etc?

No..there’s hundreds of books and documentaries still being made about slavery.I’ve just gone on Amazon books section, typed in Slavery, and literally hundreds of books appeared. Some I was allowed to buy, some I could download for free. Some were texts currently used in schools. 

Edited by wadesmith
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3 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

 

 

No..there’s hundreds of books and documentaries still being made about slavery.I’ve just gone on Amazon books section, typed in Slavery, and literally hundreds of books appeared. Some I was allowed to buy, some I could download for free. Some were texts currently used in schools. 

Plenty of films books and documentaries about the Holocaust too

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10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Plenty of films books and documentaries about the Holocaust too

Right...ok...not sure what you’re point is here? As someone who had one Polish grandparent who fled to England in 1939, I’m fully supportive of books & films abut the Holocaust. I’m fascinated by it. (& obviously appalled)I’m genuinely not sure what your point is with that sentence? I don’t think there is any significant historical figure/event  that shouldn’t/can’t  be represented in a book. I do think there are historical figures who shouldn’t have statues. 

Edited by wadesmith
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1 minute ago, wadesmith said:

Right...ok...not sure what you’re point is here? As someone who had one Polish grandparent who fled to England in 1939, I’m fully supportive of books & films abut the Holocaust. I’m fascinated by it. I’m genuinely not sure what your point is with that sentence? I don’t think there is any significant historical figure/event  that shouldn’t/can’t  be represented in a book. I do think there are historical figures who shouldn’t have statues. 

My point is that people are picking and choosing what history to airbrush. Slavery of black people was awful, but black people were not the only slaves. The Roman Empire was guilty of slavery more so than anyone they estimate 20-30% of people under the Roman Empire are slaves, why is no one tearing down Rome? Auchwitz is a grave for the brutal murder of thousands of innocent people, yet is now basically a tourist attraction. This thread is about learning from history, yet some people seem to want to pick and chose what history they erase whilst ignore others. Either we erase all negative history or we don’t and learn from it. 

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23 hours ago, Turkish said:

So rather than answer the point you chose to launch another attack on me.

Auchwitz has plenty of visitors each year, should the place that is the location of the murder of thousands of people be effectively a tourist attraction? As this thread is about re-examing and learning from our history then dont you think this is worth discussion? 

Whilst technically yes, tourists visit Auchwitz, calling it tourist attraction suggests, to me at least, a very different place/experience than is actually the case.

I challenge even the most liberal amongst us to visit Auchwitz and not have it make an impact upon their outlook on life and make them reflect on how they view people who are different from themselves. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

i see GMB were stirring it up this morning. 30 years since the Stephen Lawrence murder and with the George Floyd murder we're discussing do you trust the police? Wow linking two unrelated murders 30 years and 5000 miles apart to trigger a discussion like that. Pretty shameful really.

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I wish we were more like the Israelis with Mossad. Should hunt down each of those Stephen Lawrence murderers down and take them out! One by one. Vile fucking scum. 
 

Although I am sure someone will be disputing any evidence it was racist attack and may have been an argument about bus timetable and one person happened to be black.

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1 hour ago, whelk said:

I wish we were more like the Israelis with Mossad. Should hunt down each of those Stephen Lawrence murderers down and take them out! One by one. Vile fucking scum. 
 

Although I am sure someone will be disputing any evidence it was racist attack and may have been an argument about bus timetable and one person happened to be black.

A more apt comparison was the “racist” murder of “hero” Mark Duggan which prompted protests and riots in the area he lived in 10 years ago about the racism of Met police. 

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2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

If that is real, then there is no question that she is one of ainclever's relations!

Why do you bang on about him being thick? There are only a couple of people here who are wrong time after time after time. You’re one of them. Since everybody apart from you knows that, pointing the finger at others really doesn’t help your situation 

Edited by buctootim
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