Re-examining and learning from history

[Raging Bull]

14 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Sorry, I must have missed all the vitriol aimed at the F1 drivers, was there actually any or are you just making it up?

I guess some idiots on twitter might have said something but Even Hamilton said he respected their decision. I haven't seen any vitriol in the media.

I didn’t say here was vitriol aimed at F1 drivers. I said that it would have been aimed at the massive organisations that have all fallen in line. 
 

what I said was pretty clear, but oh well 

[aintforever]

9 minutes ago, Raging Bull said:

I didn’t say here was vitriol aimed at F1 drivers. I said that it would have been aimed at the massive organisations that have all fallen in line. 
 

what I said was pretty clear, but oh well 

Had Skysports not produced that ad would anyone have really noticed, let alone give a sh!t?

Have every other TV channel produced a BLM ad?

[hypochondriac]

45 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

Is it, by who? People call for lots of shit on Twitter. Who, of any repute, has been calling for the Guardian to be shut down? 

Are you seriously going to get me to dredge up the multitude of examples of where stupid people have called for someone to be cancelled for normally trifling reasons and often find success with what they're calling for? Did you see the letter on cancel culture releases this week? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

I see the fine people of Poole have Lord Baden-Powell back. The crusties seem to have lost this one. I’ll be down the quay sat night, so I’ll have a look and see if any patriots are guarding it. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

No, I don't think any company should be shut down purely because it has historical links to slavery. I would imagine there are quite a few in the UK.

Dumb suggestions like that and ridiculous ideas like pulling down Churchill's statue or changing the monkey on Coco Pops are just irrelevant distractions from what is a genuine, serious issue.

So you didn't agree with the protests, you didn't agree with pulling down the statues, you didn't agree with the police being attacked, you dont support the BLM political agenda. So what was it you were frantically applauding a few weeks ago? What was that all the stupid racist people didn't get and that you understood so much better than everyone else? You seem to be completely against all the events of the last month or so yet at the time you were typing and typing and typing and typing and typing calling everyone who didn't applaud it all a racist simpleton. Come on, admit it, you were just virtue signalling to let eveyone know you aren't racist weren't you.

[aintforever]

18 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So you didn't agree with the protests, you didn't agree with pulling down the statues, you didn't agree with the police being attacked, you dont support the BLM political agenda. So what was it you were frantically applauding a few weeks ago? What was that all the stupid racist people didn't get and that you understood so much better than everyone else? You seem to be completely against all the events of the last month or so yet at the time you were typing and typing and typing and typing and typing calling everyone who didn't applaud it all a racist simpleton. Come on, admit it, you were just virtue signalling to let eveyone know you aren't racist weren't you.

I know it will probably be hard for you to understand but you can agree with a cause but not agree with much of the irrelevant, pointless stuff that surrounds it. 

For what it's worth, whilst I thought anyone going on a march during a pandemic was a selfish idiot, watching the slave trader being dumped in Bristol harbour was fantastic.

 

[Wes Tender]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

I know it will probably be hard for you to understand but you can agree with a cause but not agree with much of the irrelevant, pointless stuff that surrounds it. 

For what it's worth, whilst I thought anyone going on a march during a pandemic was a selfish idiot, watching the slave trader being dumped in Bristol harbour was fantastic.

 

Just for you 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, Raging Bull said:

And since you mentioned F1, did notice that not all drivers took the knee? Are they racist? 

No, because they had a meeting of the F1 Drivers Association where they agreed that individuals were to be given an individual choice.  I don't think Hamilton has openly stated they are racist so I think they may have gotten away with it.

[rallyboy]

I thought that bloke was a comedy character until I saw his biog. 😄

Failed Brexit Party candidate songwriter hates people attempting to impose their opinions on others, and fights his corner by releasing songs imposing his own opinions on others.

So I guess he likes free speech, as long as it's his.

 

 

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

14 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No, because they had a meeting of the F1 Drivers Association where they agreed that individuals were to be given an individual choice.  I don't think Hamilton has openly stated they are racist so I think they may have gotten away with it.

Hang on a minute I thought the fear of vilification for non knee takers by the nasty left would mean this wouldn't happen. Another misconception put to bed.

[Fan The Flames]

16 hours ago, Turkish said:

So you didn't agree with the protests, you didn't agree with pulling down the statues, you didn't agree with the police being attacked, you dont support the BLM political agenda. So what was it you were frantically applauding a few weeks ago? What was that all the stupid racist people didn't get and that you understood so much better than everyone else? You seem to be completely against all the events of the last month or so yet at the time you were typing and typing and typing and typing and typing calling everyone who didn't applaud it all a racist simpleton. Come on, admit it, you were just virtue signalling to let eveyone know you aren't racist weren't you.

Can you really admonish people for virtue signalling when you are only one of two posters on here to make a point of having a black friend 😁

[Earthworm Jim]

18 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you seriously going to get me to dredge up the multitude of examples of where stupid people have called for someone to be cancelled for normally trifling reasons and often find success with what they're calling for? Did you see the letter on cancel culture releases this week? 

You were the one that said that people were calling for it to be shut down, and people were taking it seriously. I was asking who. It's fine if you can't find anyone and you were just using hyperbole to try to prove your point. 

[hypochondriac]

17 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

You were the one that said that people were calling for it to be shut down, and people were taking it seriously. I was asking who. It's fine if you can't find anyone and you were just using hyperbole to try to prove your point. 

No I didn't. I said "some of this idiocy" which if you read the post I responded to was clearly referring to people calling for things to be cancelled for ridiculous reasons. I wasn't referring specifically to the guardian (which I've never wanted to be cancelled anyway.) although I believe there was a petition started to have it cancelled. 

Edited 10 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

50 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Can you really admonish people for virtue signalling when you are only one of two posters on here to make a point of having a black friend 😁

I thought that people said saying you have a black friend was a mark of being racist? Is it racist or virtue signalling?

Anyway that's nothing. I've been frantically tweeting this morning how proud of i am of my young son this morning when he told me Andi Peters is his favourite GMB presenter.  He also asked for Redmond to be the name of the back of his saints shirt this season, he doesn't know who Nathan Redmond is but that's irrelevant,  the fact that his first choice was a person of colour is clear evidence no racism exists in my household. Oh and did i mention i cry every time i watch to Kill and Mockingbird?

[st.bangkok]

17 hours ago, aintforever said:

I know it will probably be hard for you to understand but you can agree with a cause but not agree with much of the irrelevant, pointless stuff that surrounds it. 

For what it's worth, whilst I thought anyone going on a march during a pandemic was a selfish idiot, watching the slave trader being dumped in Bristol harbour was fantastic.

 

And you cannot see your clear hypocrisy here, while not caring the Guardian was founded by a similar sort of person?

Edited 10 July, 2020 by st.bangkok

[Fan The Flames]

14 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

And you cannot see your clear hypocrisy here, while not caring the Guardian was founded by a similar sort of person?

To claim hypocrisy is a real stretch.

[st.bangkok]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

To claim hypocrisy is a real stretch.

Why is it?

[aintforever]

24 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

And you cannot see your clear hypocrisy here, while not caring the Guardian was founded by a similar sort of person?

Of course not, the idea of closing down companies and institutions linked to the slave trade is absurd. That doesn’t mean you have to celebrate the lives of slave traders with statues all over the place.

[st.bangkok]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Of course not, the idea of closing down companies and institutions linked to the slave trade is absurd. That doesn’t mean you have to celebrate the lives of slave traders with statues all over the place.

Unbelievable double standards. But totally expected. As you were.

[hypochondriac]

My father was on a zoom call this week to discuss some government proposals and they actually had to cancel the meeting and reconvene at a later date because there weren't enough black people on the call. Some of the people on the call actually asked if anyone knew a black person who could join just so they could continue with the meeting. 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

My father was on a zoom call this week to discuss some government proposals and they actually had to cancel the meeting and reconvene at a later date because there weren't enough black people on the call. Some of the people on the call actually asked if anyone knew a black person who could join just so they could continue with the meeting. 

I love the way that you have turned this into a negative. Assuming that it is true, what is the problem? God forbid that we should have a decent level of input from black people! You still don’t get it do you. If there was not a problem about racial equality we wouldn’t be having threads like this and posts like yours. If this is true I would never have had a meeting in any of the firms I had worked for unless they brought in some cleaners.

[Wes Tender]

 

Whilst we're on the subject of "cancelling" people with whose views the so-called liberal left don't agree, here is a very interested article addressing it:-

https://unherd.com/2020/07/viewpoint-diversity-as-long-as-its-on-the-left/

So much hypocrisy on the left that the term "liberal" needs to be redefined so that it doesn't fall foul of the Trade Description Act.

To paraphrase Rallyboy,  "so I guess they like free speech, as long as it's woke enough for the left. If not, it isn't allowed".

[sadoldgit]

So is it better to be a “so called liberal” or is it better to be xenophobic?

Asking for a friend.

[shurlock]

Some powerful interventions by Michael Holding.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

My father was on a zoom call this week to discuss some government proposals and they actually had to cancel the meeting and reconvene at a later date because there weren't enough black people on the call. Some of the people on the call actually asked if anyone knew a black person who could join just so they could continue with the meeting. 

 

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

I love the way that you have turned this into a negative. Assuming that it is true, what is the problem? God forbid that we should have a decent level of input from black people! 

Lol. 

Soggy, what world are you in if you can’t see anything wrong with it. If a black person merits being on the call, he’ll be on the call. 
 

Im thinking of setting up a recruitment agency ‘Blacks for hire’ . Businesses that want to feel good about themselves can hire one of my guys to sit in on calls, take part in photo opportunities and generally hang around being black. Soft arses like Soggy would love it, and they would only have to pay minimum wage, plus my mark up. I may even extend my books to include disabled, lesbos and even Trans folk. It’s a great business model because lefties will never look beyond someone’s skin colour, so I’ll always have a captive market. 

[aintforever]

4 hours ago, st.bangkok said:

Unbelievable double standards. But totally expected. As you were.

That would make sense if removing a statue and forcing to close a perfectly good business were even remotely the same thing.

You're talking shite as usual.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I love the way that you have turned this into a negative. Assuming that it is true, what is the problem? God forbid that we should have a decent level of input from black people! You still don’t get it do you. If there was not a problem about racial equality we wouldn’t be having threads like this and posts like yours. If this is true I would never have had a meeting in any of the firms I had worked for unless they brought in some cleaners.

Didn't you work for the Guardian and the CPS?

[Weston Super Saint]

6 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Hang on a minute I thought the fear of vilification for non knee takers by the nasty left would mean this wouldn't happen. Another misconception put to bed.

Not at all, they put out a statement so had a get out of jail free card, simples.

[Wes Tender]

35 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So is it better to be a “so called liberal” or is it better to be xenophobic?

Asking for a friend.

 

Liberalism

[ˈlɪb(ə)rəlɪz(ə)m]

 

NOUN

1. willingness to respect or accept behaviour or opinions different from one's own; openness to new ideas.

   "one of the basic tenets of liberalism is tolerance"
   • the holding of political views that are socially progressive and promote social welfare.
     "Brooklyn prides itself on being a great bastion of liberalism and diversity"
2. a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise.

   "representative democracy operates under the principles of classical liberalism"
3. the doctrine of a Liberal Party or (in the UK) the Liberal Democrats.

   "working-class support for Liberalism"

    

   It would be better to be proper liberals in accordance with the definitions above. I said "so-called" because it seems that politically there is now no tolerance of freedom of speech and opinion if it offends the new woke PC brigade. 

[Wes Tender]

35 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

Lol. 

Soggy, what world are you in if you can’t see anything wrong with it. If a black person merits being on the call, he’ll be on the call. 
 

Im thinking of setting up a recruitment agency ‘Blacks for hire’ . Businesses that want to feel good about themselves can hire one of my guys to sit in on calls, take part in photo opportunities and generally hang around being black. Soft arses like Soggy would love it, and they would only have to pay minimum wage, plus my mark up. I may even extend my books to include disabled, lesbos and even Trans folk. It’s a great business model because lefties will never look beyond someone’s skin colour, so I’ll always have a captive market. 

Rent  offices across the road from the BBC. They've got £100 million of our money to spend on it.

[sadoldgit]

How many black coaches are there in professional football in this country? Is it because non of them are good enough? Funny that only white people make good football coaches.

Yes, I worked for The Guardian and left 20 years ago so I can’t say what it is like now, but then there were no black people around. Yes I also worked for the CPS in Kent up to 6 years ago and there were some Asians but very few black people in our region. From memory there were 2 black prosecutors but no black support staff.

When you have extremes it is often the case that an opposite extreme happens before there is a balance. Whilst I don’t agree with the principle of positive discrimination, I can see the need for it until there is an evening up. There are plenty of jobs where black people could do them as well as white people, but it is very clear that they aren’t given the same opportunities if you look at the stats.

Football is a prime example. There are plenty of black players at the top level now, wouldn’t you expect to see more move into coaching positions? It’s not as if they aren’t interested.

If things are going to change for any minority groups, their voices need to be heard in positions of power and yes, in daily meetings where decisions are made.

The point where we reach proper equality will be when no one comments in the amount of minority groups in meetings or in positions of power. It would seem that is still a long way off.

 

[Earthworm Jim]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

No I didn't. I said "some of this idiocy" which if you read the post I responded to was clearly referring to people calling for things to be cancelled for ridiculous reasons. I wasn't referring specifically to the guardian (which I've never wanted to be cancelled anyway.) although I believe there was a petition started to have it cancelled. 

"I meant, I meant, I meant...", jeez man, grow some balls and own it.

If all you're saying is some people say stupid things, and some stupid people believe them, then yes, I think we all agree, but that's hardly worth even saying. Better off, it should probably be posted in the Brexit thread. 

[Earthworm Jim]

7 hours ago, st.bangkok said:

Why is it?

Do you think we should kill people who have wealth through ancestors who made money via slavery, because that's the equivalent of shutting down a company that was formed using wealth from slavery? 

Edited 10 July, 2020 by Earthworm Jim

[Weston Super Saint]

19 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

Do you think we should kill people who have wealth through ancestors who made money via slavery, because that's the equivalent?

Really, THAT is the quivalent of hypocrisy?

[Fan The Flames]

7 hours ago, st.bangkok said:

Why is it?

Because the equivalent of tipping Colston's statue into the water would be taking John Taylor's picture of the paper's masthead, not closing down the Guardian. Because the equivalent thing to that would be knocking down Colston Hall. No one has asked for that, so to claim an equivalence is desperate, but then I find most people screaming about hypocrisy on the internet are desperate.

Edited 10 July, 2020 by Fan The Flames

[Wes Tender]

11 minutes ago, Earthworm Jim said:

"I meant, I meant, I meant...", jeez man, grow some balls and own it.

If all you're saying is some people say stupid things, and some stupid people believe them, then yes, I think we all agree, but that's hardly worth even saying. Better off, it should probably be posted in the Brexit thread. 

What exactly has "Re-examining and learning from history" got to do with the Brexit thread? Have the events of the past few weeks since the death of George Floyd, the toppling of statues, the BLM campaign being hijacked by marxists got anything remotely to do with Brexit? I suppose that very loosely under this thread we can examine history regarding the way that we were conned by the Heath government into believing that the whole European project we joined nearly 50 years ago was solely a trading relationship. Is that what you had in mind? Straying a bit from the current debate though, isn't it?😛

[Wes Tender]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

 I find most people screaming about hypocrisy on the internet are desperate.

What, like all of those who wanted politicians to resign because they were deemed to have broken government rules on isolation; those sorts of desperate people who screamed hypocrisy?

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not at all, they put out a statement so had a get out of jail free card, simples.

Bollocks, would a statement stop the hoards of rabid cancel culture left wingers that we were led to believe were just waiting for anyone to deny the knee. Are you saying if James McClean had released a statement before he didn't wear a poppy then he wouldn't have got death threats.

[Fan The Flames]

5 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

What, like all of those who wanted politicians to resign because they were deemed to have broken government rules on isolation; those sorts of desperate people who screamed hypocrisy?

I think people rightly felt aggrieved that the laws that applied to them didn't apply to the Tory elite and the people screaming hypocrisy in this event were the ones screaming 'but but Stephen Kinnock'. Backing up my point entirely about being desperate.

[Wes Tender]

Just now, Fan The Flames said:

I think people rightly felt aggrieved that the laws that applied to them didn't apply to the Tory elite and the people screaming hypocrisy in this event were the ones screaming 'but but Stephen Kinnock'. Backing up my point entirely about being desperate.

So basically what you're saying is that whether people on the internet who scream hypocrisy are desperate, depends on whether they are on the left or the right of politics, is that correct? 🙄

[Fan The Flames]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

My father was on a zoom call this week to discuss some government proposals and they actually had to cancel the meeting and reconvene at a later date because there weren't enough black people on the call. Some of the people on the call actually asked if anyone knew a black person who could join just so they could continue with the meeting. 

I think you dad is amazing to able to work zoom and still working well into his 90's.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Wes Tender said:

So basically what you're saying is that whether people on the internet who scream hypocrisy are desperate, depends on whether they are on the left or the right of politics, is that correct? 🙄

No

[Wes Tender]

1 minute ago, Fan The Flames said:

No

I think that you're very selective about who you categorise as being "desperate" if they shout hypocrite towards any group or individual based on their own opinion. Why do you think that anybody accusing somebody else of hypocrisy has to be called desperate? Is this a new illiberal rule you've introduced to ensure that modern woke standards are observed?

[Fan The Flames]

8 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

I think that you're very selective about who you categorise as being "desperate" if they shout hypocrite towards any group or individual based on their own opinion. Why do you think that anybody accusing somebody else of hypocrisy has to be called desperate? Is this a new illiberal rule you've introduced to ensure that modern woke standards are observed?

I'm not being selective, I haven't said it only applies to one side, you need to read more and stop acting on your prejudices. Normally people who scream hypocrisy don't care about the issue really or can't be arsed to argue the merits of their case, they just think a charge of hypocrisy is a winning hand.

I remember seeing a documentary on the far right and radical muslims, they were in groups a few meters apart both screaming 'pedophiles' at each other. Different but the same, they didn't or couldn't argue their case so went straight for what they perceived was a winning argument, 'we are right because you are pedophiles'. It was pathetic. Trying to spring a forum hypocrisy gotcha is desperate and more so when their example is so shit. 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

"I meant, I meant, I meant...", jeez man, grow some balls and own it.

If all you're saying is some people say stupid things, and some stupid people believe them, then yes, I think we all agree, but that's hardly worth even saying. Better off, it should probably be posted in the Brexit thread. 

I didn't say I meant anything, I only told you exactly what I had posted. It was crystal clear what I said in my post and its jot my fault if you've misunderstood it. Be a man for once and own up to your mistake. 

What I was actually saying was that there's been a a lot of examples of so called cancel culture recently where someone doesn't like what someone has said and so seeks to get them fired or removed from whatever they are doing. It's a phenomenon most recently observed by the likes of those well known right wingers jk Rowling and noam chomsky. 

Edited 10 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[wadesmith]

8 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

My father was on a zoom call this week to discuss some government proposals and they actually had to cancel the meeting and reconvene at a later date because there weren't enough black people on the call. Some of the people on the call actually asked if anyone knew a black person who could join just so they could continue with the meeting. 

^Just adding this to my ever expanding list of things that have never happened to your Dad on a Zoom call.

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

How many black coaches are there in professional football in this country? Is it because non of them are good enough? Funny that only white people make good football coaches.

Yes, I worked for The Guardian and left 20 years ago so I can’t say what it is like now, but then there were no black people around. Yes I also worked for the CPS in Kent up to 6 years ago and there were some Asians but very few black people in our region. From memory there were 2 black prosecutors but no black support staff.

When you have extremes it is often the case that an opposite extreme happens before there is a balance. Whilst I don’t agree with the principle of positive discrimination, I can see the need for it until there is an evening up. There are plenty of jobs where black people could do them as well as white people, but it is very clear that they aren’t given the same opportunities if you look at the stats.

Football is a prime example. There are plenty of black players at the top level now, wouldn’t you expect to see more move into coaching positions? It’s not as if they aren’t interested.

If things are going to change for any minority groups, their voices need to be heard in positions of power and yes, in daily meetings where decisions are made.

The point where we reach proper equality will be when no one comments in the amount of minority groups in meetings or in positions of power. It would seem that is still a long way off.

 

How should the meeting have been divided then in your eyes? What if they had a mixed race individual on the call, is that sufficient? What if you're a lighter skinned black, presumably you'd get a higher diversity score if you're much darker skinned like someone from Kenya? How about if they had the correct number of black people but not enough women? What if there wasn't enough gay representation? Or trans? What about older people? Surely you'd want the proper amount of representation from the overweight contingent too? And vegans, can't forget about them. Should all meetings be put on hold until a sufficient amount of representation is sought for all meetings or is it just black people? 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, wadesmith said:

^Just adding this to my ever expanding list of things that have never happened to your Dad on a Zoom call.

I can't see why he'd feel the need to lie about it or why you think I'd bother to make up something like that. One of the people involved cited this pledge apparently:. 

 

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think you dad is amazing to able to work zoom and still working well into his 90's.

Not even close. 

[wadesmith]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I can't see why he'd feel the need to lie about it or why you think I'd bother to make up something like that. One of the people involved cited this pledge apparently:. 

 

'Apparently'..so you don'y know?. Ask your dad!