Re-examining and learning from history

[badgerx16]

  On 21/07/2020 at 23:03, Fan The Flames said:

Seriously what has changed to make it an anachronism. I see the argument about not supporting BLM because of their allied beliefs but not about dismissing it because its no longer relevant.

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I ddn't say that BLM is no longer relevant, I just feel that the whole 'taking a knee' thing has become tokenism. How much longer will it continue ? Will it happen before every game next season ?

[Wes Tender]

  On 22/07/2020 at 07:21, badgerx16 said:

I ddn't say that BLM is no longer relevant, I just feel that the whole 'taking a knee' thing has become tokenism. How much longer will it continue ? Will it happen before every game next season ?

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I sincerely hope not. Having it to the end of the season is quite enough to make a point. If it continues into next season, I reckon that there could well be booing.

[hypochondriac]

  On 22/07/2020 at 07:21, badgerx16 said:

I ddn't say that BLM is no longer relevant, I just feel that the whole 'taking a knee' thing has become tokenism. How much longer will it continue ? Will it happen before every game next season ?

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I expect they won't bother when fans are back inside. No doubt there would be some dissent if they carried on with it and they wouldn't want to risk the optics. It's not a coincidence that this was pushed so hard when there was no crowd around to give their opinions on it. 

Edited 22 July, 2020 by hypochondriac

[wadesmith]

Relax Gammonflakes, they're not going to do it next season. Although it's heartening to see some of you guys concerned that the gesture might be booed or  dissent shown. feels like a real turning point.. It's turning into the bloody rainbow alliance on here!

[Fan The Flames]

There was a commitment for this season only as far as I was aware. Doing it for more than one game is a much more powerful symbol, doing it for one game would have been tokenism. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 22/07/2020 at 13:27, Fan The Flames said:

There was a commitment for this season only as far as I was aware. Doing it for more than one game is a much more powerful symbol, doing it for one game would have been tokenism. 

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Like having poppies on shirts or clapping in the "xx" minute when someone dies?

[whelk]

I think they should do it after each drinks break

[Fan The Flames]

  On 22/07/2020 at 16:53, whelk said:

I think they should do it after each drinks break

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They should take the knee for each corner and have to stay down until the ball goes out of play again. If IFAB don't agree they are racist and should be cancelled. 

[badgerx16]

"More than 175 historians have called on the Home Office to remove the history element of the UK citizenship test because of its “misleading and false” representation of slavery and empire."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/22/home-office-urged-to-correct-false-slavery-information-in-citizenship-test?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

 

[badgerx16]

The latest target for statue vandalism is Christopher Columbus. Where will this end ?

[aintforever]

  On 25/07/2020 at 10:39, badgerx16 said:

The latest target for statue vandalism is Christopher Columbus. Where will this end ?

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A council worker, can of paint stripper and a scrubbing brush I expect.

[hypochondriac]

I don't this is the point they think it is... 

[Batman]

https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/1287064655857426433?s=20

[Lighthouse]

  On 25/07/2020 at 12:11, hypochondriac said:

I don't this is the point they think it is... 

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Is that a percentage of the total in the US, because I’m not sure those figures are accurate. If they’re suggesting 97.4% murder is committed by blacks and whites, that leaves less than 3% for all combined Hispanics and Asians. Seems unrealistically low to me.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 25/07/2020 at 18:17, Lighthouse said:

Is that a percentage of the total in the US, because I’m not sure those figures are accurate. If they’re suggesting 97.4% murder is committed by blacks and whites, that leaves less than 3% for all combined Hispanics and Asians. Seems unrealistically low to me.

 

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Not only that but the figures say that around 12.5% of the population commit 53% of all murders.  That's staggering if true.

[hypochondriac]

  On 25/07/2020 at 18:17, Lighthouse said:

Is that a percentage of the total in the US, because I’m not sure those figures are accurate. If they’re suggesting 97.4% murder is committed by blacks and whites, that leaves less than 3% for all combined Hispanics and Asians. Seems unrealistically low to me.

 

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I'm not the one who created the but maybe it would be more accurate if they termed it black and non-black? Regardless, they really need to think about why figures such as this actually make their cause look really bad. 

[Batman]

Nothing to do with BLM

 

https://twitter.com/HappyHarryMedia/status/1287068184256929793?s=20

[sadoldgit]

  On 25/07/2020 at 12:11, hypochondriac said:

I don't this is the point they think it is... 

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Isn’t their point that the majority of crime is carried out by non black people? These figures would appear to back that up. There are also no figures here to show how many black people are killed by the police either by being taken into custody or in custody against the numbers for white people.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 27/07/2020 at 11:13, sadoldgit said:

Isn’t their point that the majority of crime is carried out by non black people? These figures would appear to back that up. There are also no figures here to show how many black people are killed by the police either by being taken into custody or in custody against the numbers for white people.

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It's not a well thought out point is it?  There are 12.5% of the American population that are black, but they are commiting more than half of all murders and robberies and nearly a third of all crimes involving rape, burglary, fraud and forgery.

Statistically, a smaller percentage of the population are commiting a larger percentage of the crimes.  These figures back that up...

[Verbal]

  On 27/07/2020 at 15:54, Weston Super Saint said:

It's not a well thought out point is it?  There are 12.5% of the American population that are black, but they are commiting more than half of all murders and robberies and nearly a third of all crimes involving rape, burglary, fraud and forgery.

Statistically, a smaller percentage of the population are commiting a larger percentage of the crimes.  These figures back that up...

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You have to be much more careful when using these statistics.

First, you have the percentage of black population wrong.  It’s 13.4% for people who identify as African American only – over 14% if you include mixed race African American.

Second, the statistics are the arrest records (they’re from the FBI so not surprising that they do this, but it’s misleading because some ethnicities are more ‘policed’ than others)

Third, crime is age-related.  Younger people tend to commit more crime.  The most common age for black people in the US is 27.  The most common age for white people is 58.

Fourth, crime is class-related.  There is a strong association, independent of race, of crime with poverty.  In the US only 9% of white live in poverty.  For African Americans it’s more than double that – 22%.

Even then, you’re guilty of being selective.  Almost 70% of all arrests for imprisonable crime in the US, according to the FBI, are committed by whites.  Whites are over-represented in serious crimes such as rape.

[skintsaint]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-24/coon-cheese-to-change-name-after-campaign/12489734

Seems a lot of people here not happy here with this one. Then again Australia is a far more racist place than the UK generally from my experiences.

[scally]

  On 27/07/2020 at 19:32, Verbal said:

You have to be much more careful when using these statistics.

First, you have the percentage of black population wrong.  It’s 13.4% for people who identify as African American only – over 14% if you include mixed race African American.

Second, the statistics are the arrest records (they’re from the FBI so not surprising that they do this, but it’s misleading because some ethnicities are more ‘policed’ than others)

Third, crime is age-related.  Younger people tend to commit more crime.  The most common age for black people in the US is 27.  The most common age for white people is 58.

Fourth, crime is class-related.  There is a strong association, independent of race, of crime with poverty.  In the US only 9% of white live in poverty.  For African Americans it’s more than double that – 22%.

Even then, you’re guilty of being selective.  Almost 70% of all arrests for imprisonable crime in the US, according to the FBI, are committed by whites.  Whites are over-represented in serious crimes such as rape.

I'm not sure why you feel their would be problems with FBI figures, also if you take 14% of the population in the USA are black and a minimum of 60% are white you would still have far more young white Americans and far more white Americans living in poverty. It does no one any good to try to make out their is not a problem with young blacks committing violent crimes in America.Unless you admit their is a problem you can't start to address it. I'll put the Coleman Hughes video below again, if you watch this and videos from people like Glenn Loury you'll get a real grip on what's going on in America and not have to rely on the crap you get from the mainstream media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C-VrsK93GE&t=1803s

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[Lighthouse]

Were the BBC right to use the N-word in that report? On the one hand, they could have used the phrase ‘N-word’. On the other hand, if it is being reported and not used directly, is that necessarily offensive?
 

I’m undecided on that one.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 08/08/2020 at 17:59, Lighthouse said:

Were the BBC right to use the N-word in that report? On the one hand, they could have used the phrase ‘N-word’. On the other hand, if it is being reported and not used directly, is that necessarily offensive?
 

I’m undecided on that one.

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Apparently the man's family asked them to use the word.

[egg]

  On 08/08/2020 at 17:59, Lighthouse said:

Were the BBC right to use the N-word in that report? On the one hand, they could have used the phrase ‘N-word’. On the other hand, if it is being reported and not used directly, is that necessarily offensive?
 

I’m undecided on that one.

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I don't see the issue with reporting something factual, especially in the context of a racially motivated incident when the word was used. 

What is the argument for omitting a relevant fact from a news report? What is offensive about using the word in the context it was used? 

And then there's the gratuitous use of the word by black people in music and movies. Does the term cease to be offensive when black people use it to describe or address other black people? 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 09/08/2020 at 06:58, egg said:

And then there's the gratuitous use of the word by black people in music and movies. Does the term cease to be offensive when black people use it to describe or address other black people? 

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Certainly seems that way - the radio 1 extra DJ that quit yesterday seems to have done so because a white person used the word on the BBC which he found offensive!

[hypochondriac]

  On 09/08/2020 at 06:58, egg said:

I don't see the issue with reporting something factual, especially in the context of a racially motivated incident when the word was used. 

What is the argument for omitting a relevant fact from a news report? What is offensive about using the word in the context it was used? 

And then there's the gratuitous use of the word by black people in music and movies. Does the term cease to be offensive when black people use it to describe or address other black people? 

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There was a good bit by a comedian (may have been Louis ck) about how annoying it is when people say "the n word" because all it does is force the person watching to say it in their own head. 

[egg]

  On 09/08/2020 at 10:39, Weston Super Saint said:

Certainly seems that way - the radio 1 extra DJ that quit yesterday seems to have done so because a white person used the word on the BBC which he found offensive!

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That's my understanding too. If a word is offensive, it's offensive, and it seems obvious to me that people most offended by the term should set the example of not using the word rather than just condoning the use. 

[benjii]

 

 

[benjii]

  On 09/08/2020 at 11:33, egg said:

That's my understanding too. If a word is offensive, it's offensive, and it seems obvious to me that people most offended by the term should set the example of not using the word rather than just condoning the use. 

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Context is pretty important. If I call a friend a cunt then it’s ok. If I call a work colleague a cunt in the office then it’s probably not.

[egg]

  On 10/08/2020 at 04:30, benjii said:

Context is pretty important. If I call a friend a cunt then it’s ok. If I call a work colleague a cunt in the office then it’s probably not.

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Back to the original point, the n word was used as a factual reference in a news report. Context wise, you can't get more appropriate than that imo. 

On your point, I get that, but I'm not sure that if a word is so unacceptable, that it's acceptable that there's an invisible line for its use, and seemingly only by black people. 

[rallyboy]

I think most people can see the difference of context.

Any word used by two gays to happily address each other could be interpreted very differently when the same word is scrawled in dog's shit on their front door by an extremist nutter.

Ditto the n-word, fully acceptable to like-minded hip hop artists if they are happy about it.

There's no invisible line on these matters,  the line is very clear to most sensible people.

 

 

[hypochondriac]

  On 10/08/2020 at 11:45, rallyboy said:

I think most people can see the difference of context.

Any word used by two gays to happily address each other could be interpreted very differently when the same word is scrawled in dog's shit on their front door by an extremist nutter.

Ditto the n-word, fully acceptable to like-minded hip hop artists if they are happy about it.

There's no invisible line on these matters,  the line is very clear to most sensible people.

 

 

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But not acceptable in a factually accurate news report? Most who are objecting seem to be saying the main issue was that the newsreader was white. Presumably then the news report woild have been fine if the person reading the words had been black? 

[Turkish]

  On 10/08/2020 at 11:45, rallyboy said:

I think most people can see the difference of context.

Any word used by two gays to happily address each other could be interpreted very differently when the same word is scrawled in dog's shit on their front door by an extremist nutter.

Ditto the n-word, fully acceptable to like-minded hip hop artists if they are happy about it.

There's no invisible line on these matters,  the line is very clear to most sensible people.

 

 

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either its a racist word or its not.

[skintsaint]

Honkys can't be saying it though.

[Manuel]

If the attacker had said "Outta the fucking way cunt face" the reporter would have said "hurled abuse" or something rather than repeat the cussing.  Because some viewers won't want to hear it.  She'd have been better off saying "racist abuse" for the same reason, rather than repeating it. 

Although I did read somewhere that the family of the bloke run over specifically wanted the words to be said, in which case that needs to be made public for the reporter's sake.  Might be BS though.  

Edited 10 August, 2020 by Manuel

[hypochondriac]

  On 10/08/2020 at 14:12, Manuel said:

If the attacker had said "Outta the fucking way cunt face" the reporter would have said "hurled abuse" or something rather than repeat the cussing.  Because some viewers won't want to hear it.  She'd have been better off saying "racist abuse" for the same reason, rather than repeating it. 

Although I did read somewhere that the family of the bloke run over specifically wanted the words to be said, in which case that needs to be made public for the reporter's sake.  Might be BS though.  

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But the point is that lots of people complaining seem to be suggesting that it's because the word was uttered by a white news reporter rather than it being said at all. 

[Manuel]

Well that's just daft, and probably racist.  

Edited 10 August, 2020 by Manuel

[benjii]

  On 10/08/2020 at 15:42, hypochondriac said:

But the point is that lots of people complaining seem to be suggesting that it's because the word was uttered by a white news reporter rather than it being said at all. 

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How many people are actually complaining about that? Probably a small number of loud-shouting morons. You know who the usual suspects are.

[hypochondriac]

  On 12/08/2020 at 04:04, benjii said:

How many people are actually complaining about that? Probably a small number of loud-shouting morons. You know who the usual suspects are.

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Well the people quoted in the original bbc article I read which included two people who actually work for the BBC. 

[egg]

  On 12/08/2020 at 06:53, hypochondriac said:

Well the people quoted in the original bbc article I read which included two people who actually work for the BBC. 

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Indeed. And this is where claiming "context" can make the use acceptable (based on the comments above, by black people to black people is apparently ok) and/or a seemingly moveable moral line is dangerous. 

Either a word is acceptable or it isn't.  

 

[hypochondriac]

  On 12/08/2020 at 07:27, egg said:

Indeed. And this is where claiming "context" can make the use acceptable (based on the comments above, by black people to black people is apparently ok) and/or a seemingly moveable moral line is dangerous. 

Either a word is acceptable or it isn't.  

 

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It's also dangerously ambiguous. If we are saying it's OK for a black person to say it then does the shade of the black person's skin have an impact? Does it make it more or less acceptable the darker or lighter they are? 

[egg]

  On 12/08/2020 at 08:04, hypochondriac said:

It's also dangerously ambiguous. If we are saying it's OK for a black person to say it then does the shade of the black person's skin have an impact? Does it make it more or less acceptable the darker or lighter they are? 

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Yep, you can't have an unspecified and ambiguous line. Often in movies non black people are addressed by the n word. Is that OK though cos it's "in context" as it's his black mate who uses the term? 

[Weston Super Saint]

What if the dog in the cemetry in Wales was named by a black person, would that then make it OK for it to have that name?

Certainly seems very confusing....

[skintsaint]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53774075

Why don't they just accept the best graduates and not worry about filling quotas. Also why do Yanks always categorise into african-americans, asian-americans etc. Just say you are American. Doesn't help matters. Don't think I've ever heard someone say they are african-british for example.

[Weston Super Saint]

Good old Demba, he's either a little bit thick or he really does think that "football" will solve political / human rights issues "whatever the financial cost".  Perhaps he thought the whole kneeling and patches on shirts thing was something more than bandwagon jumping and virtue signalling?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53801271

  Quote

Former Premier League striker Demba Ba has called on football to condemn China's treatment of Uighur Muslims, whatever the financial cost.

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[hypochondriac]

  On 19/08/2020 at 07:06, Weston Super Saint said:

Good old Demba, he's either a little bit thick or he really does think that "football" will solve political / human rights issues "whatever the financial cost".  Perhaps he thought the whole kneeling and patches on shirts thing was something more than bandwagon jumping and virtue signalling?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53801271

 

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It's interesting though that the Premier league aren't so keen to stand up for something if its likely to cost them millions of pounds. It's almost like the black lives matter thing was seen as a harmless gesture they could make whereas when there's an opportunity to stand up against actual brutality and possible genocide they are strangely silent. Funny that. 

[sadoldgit]

I am surprised that there are people who don’t seem to understand the difference between a white person using the N word in a pejorative way and a black person reappropriating the same word as using it as a positive rather than a negative to take the power away from its primal use. The same thing happens with Spurs supporters using anti Semitic terminology to their own ends.

Or perhaps l’m not given the posting history of those who miss the point.

 

[hypochondriac]

  On 20/08/2020 at 09:42, sadoldgit said:

I am surprised that there are people who don’t seem to understand the difference between a white person using the N word in a pejorative way and a black person reappropriating the same word as using it as a positive rather than a negative to take the power away from its primal use. The same thing happens with Spurs supporters using anti Semitic terminology to their own ends.

Or perhaps l’m not given the posting history of those who miss the point.

 

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Hold on I thought it was unacceptable when spurs fans chant yiddo? That's what loads of people have been saying for ages. 

[Lighthouse]

  On 20/08/2020 at 09:42, sadoldgit said:

I am surprised that there are people who don’t seem to understand the difference between a white person using the N word in a pejorative way and a black person reappropriating the same word as using it as a positive rather than a negative to take the power away from its primal use. The same thing happens with Spurs supporters using anti Semitic terminology to their own ends.

Or perhaps l’m not given the posting history of those who miss the point.

 

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Hypothetically, could a white person use the word in the same context?