Re-examining and learning from history

[badgerx16]

Given how the "What is wrong with America ?" thread deve!oped over the weeks since George Floyd died into a broader issue of race relations and equalities, perhaps that theme deserves to be revived as it's own tbread.

 

On which point, it is good to see that our Foreign Secretary is fully cogniscent of events and the issues being brought to light;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244

"Dominic Raab says he has "full respect" for Black Lives Matter campaigners after he was criticised for comments about "taking the knee".

The foreign secretary said the gesture "seems to be taken" from TV drama Game of Thrones."

 

 

[hypochondriac]

That article misrepresents the comments that Raab actually made but regardless of that, I don't think anyone should be taking a knee. 

[aintforever]

It's great how the Football clubs, players and officials have all shown their support for Black Lives Matter.

It's not just about being anti-racist, it's actually showing it that makes a difference.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

It's great how the Football clubs, players and officials have all shown their support for Black Lives Matter.

It's not just about being anti-racist, it's actually showing it that makes a difference.

What's unfortunate is that its got to the point that no one is allowed to dissent. Imagine if you were a footballer who didn't think it was a good idea to have black lives matter on the back of your shorts or kneel before every game and you said any of that publically. You woupd be vilified and probably have your career ended. The mainstream accepted opinion is that the black lives matter organisation are loved and supported by all and you aren't allowed to have a different opinion if you're in the public eye. 

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What's unfortunate is that its got to the point that no one is allowed to dissent. Imagine if you were a footballer who didn't think it was a good idea to have black lives matter on the back of your shorts or kneel before every game and you said any of that publically. You woupd be vilified and probably have your career ended. The mainstream accepted opinion is that the black lives matter organisation are loved and supported by all and you aren't allowed to have a different opinion if you're in the public eye. 

Maybe they just all agree that black lives matter?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Maybe they just all agree that black lives matter?

You have to take your hat off to the people who came up with it- it really is a genius marketing slogan. 

[shurlock]

37 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Given how the "What is wrong with America ?" thread deve!oped over the weeks since George Floyd died into a broader issue of race relations and equalities, perhaps that theme deserves to be revived as it's own tbread.

 

On which point, it is good to see that our Foreign Secretary is fully cogniscent of events and the issues being brought to light;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244

"Dominic Raab says he has "full respect" for Black Lives Matter campaigners after he was criticised for comments about "taking the knee".

The foreign secretary said the gesture "seems to be taken" from TV drama Game of Thrones."

 

 

The article doesn't fully tell the story behind the knee. Originally Kaepernick protested by sitting during the anthem. It was Nate Boyer, a US army green beret and former NFL long-snapper, who advised Kaepernick to kneel as a compromise instead - to protest racism and injustice but also to show reverence to those in the military who had given up their lives for the US flag and anthem. Its more a subtle message than given credit for - and no doubt lost on the usual suspects who view the world in binary and Manichean terms.

[st.bangkok]

So, why was there such a fuss about poppies on shirts but BLM is OK?

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, st.bangkok said:

So, why was there such a fuss about poppies on shirts but BLM is OK?

Because the type of people who would oppose the poppy as a symbol of colonial oppression and white male patriarchy would also be the people behind the black lives matter organisation. 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

So, why was there such a fuss about poppies on shirts but BLM is OK?

Poppies was FIFA/UEFA wasn’t it? 

[shurlock]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Because the type of people who would oppose the poppy as a symbol of colonial oppression and white male patriarchy would also be the people behind the black lives matter organisation. 

What happens if you support both the poppy and taking a knee?

[st.bangkok]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Poppies was FIFA/UEFA wasn’t it? 

So, we will soon see them ordering the PL to end BLM on shirts?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, shurlock said:

What happens if you support both the poppy and taking a knee?

Who said you couldn't? I'm fine with people taking the knee if that's what they want to do. It's obvious that many wouldn't be OK with a player deciding not to though. 

[st.bangkok]

1 minute ago, shurlock said:

What happens if you support both the poppy and taking a knee?

I would imagine, like me, you would be confused as to why one is OK and the other not.

[aintforever]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You have to take your hat off to the people who came up with it- it really is a genius marketing slogan. 

I've always thought it was a bit too 'stating the obvious' but you can see why it resonates with people after watching that George Floyd video. I thought the most shocking thing about it was that wether the cop meant to kill him or not, his life just didn't appear to matter. Even when he knew he was being videoed, it didn't matter what happened to the guy under his knee.

That's why I think it is important for people to show some empathy to the cause.

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, st.bangkok said:

So, we will soon see them ordering the PL to end BLM on shirts?

I thought the poppy thing was regarding England shirts in an international game, which is different from domestic PL games?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, aintforever said:

I've always thought it was a bit too 'stating the obvious' but you can see why it resonates with people after watching that George Floyd video. I thought the most shocking thing about it was that wether the cop meant to kill him or not, his life just didn't appear to matter. Even when he knew he was being videoed, it didn't matter what happened to the guy under his knee.

That's why I think it is important for people to show some empathy to the cause.

My main issue with it is that for many people it's not just about a statement of black lives mattering. In what way should support be shown by people who absolutely oppose the additional political beliefs that the organisation stands for yet clearly supports the basic premise that black lives matter exactly the same amount as all lives. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

It's great how the Football clubs, players and officials have all shown their support for Black Lives Matter.

It's not just about being anti-racist, it's actually showing it that makes a difference.

It won’t make a blind bit of difference. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It won’t make a blind bit of difference. 

What tangible things are being asked for? Serious question because I totally get the complaints with cops in America but what's the policies that are wanted in the UK? 

[Guided Missile]

If Black Lives Matter to the majority of the African-American community, why are 67% of black children raised by their mothers, alone?

[aintforever]

43 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

My main issue with it is that for many people it's not just about a statement of black lives mattering. In what way should support be shown by people who absolutely oppose the additional political beliefs that the organisation stands for yet clearly supports the basic premise that black lives matter exactly the same amount as all lives. 

Black Lives Matter is not a political party. As well as just being a slogan it's also just a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice. Their aims are clear and the people involved had a whole range of political views.  In the words of one of their activists it "encompasses all who publicly declare that black lives matter and devote their time and energy accordingly"

Do you really think everyone who protests or takes the knee has the same political views?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Black Lives Matter is not a political party. As well as just being a slogan it's also just a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice. Their aims are clear and the people involved had a whole range of political views.  In the words of one of their activists it "encompasses all who publicly declare that black lives matter and devote their time and energy accordingly"

Do you really think everyone who protests or takes the knee has the same political views?

Why are there fundraisers and what appears to be an official website (blacklivesmatter.com) with aims on it that are nothing to do with race? How can I be sure that by supporting "black lives matter" I am not inadvertently supporting this group called black lives matter that I disagree with very strongly? Its like certain feminist groups that say they simply advocate for equality between men and women and then you look into things and there's a whole raft of other things that have nothing to do with that. 

[skintsaint]

Wonder if Pep will ask for a refund of his fine from the FA for wearing his political message a while ago.

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Black Lives Matter is not a political party. As well as just being a slogan it's also just a loose confederation of groups advocating for racial justice. Their aims are clear and the people involved had a whole range of political views.  In the words of one of their activists it "encompasses all who publicly declare that black lives matter and devote their time and energy accordingly"

Do you really think everyone who protests or takes the knee has the same political views?

Obviously not, that's the issue here isn't it? Separating the sentiment of the name, with the actual political aims of the group. For example I am anti-fascist and would support defending the English but I would never join the various Antifa groups or the EDL.

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Obviously not, that's the issue here isn't it? Separating the sentiment of the name, with the actual political aims of the group. For example I am anti-fascist and would support defending the English but I would never join the various Antifa groups or the EDL.

I think their aims are clear. There are obviously people within the different groups with their own ideas of how to achieve those aims but by saying Black Lives Matter you are saying just that.

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I think their aims are clear. There are obviously people within the different groups with their own ideas of how to achieve those aims but by saying Black Lives Matter you are saying just that.

You haven't answered the question about their fundraisers or what appears to be their official website. The aims of blacklivesmatter.com are clear because they've written them on their website. I really oppose what they have said they stand for and I'd be worried that stated something obvious like blacklivesmatter would be misconstrued as a sign of support for what appears to be a political group called blacklivesmatter that I want nothing to do with. 

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You haven't answered the question about their fundraisers or what appears to be their official website. The aims of blacklivesmatter.com are clear because they've written them on their website. I really oppose what they have said they stand for and I'd be worried that stated something obvious like blacklivesmatter would be misconstrued as a sign of support for what appears to be a political group called blacklivesmatter that I want nothing to do with. 

I wouldn't send them money if you don't agree with them.

[hypochondriac]

It's a bit like starting a movement called "child abuse is bad". Everyone agrees with that statement but if a group of people claiming to represent child abuse is bad set up "childabuseisbad.com" and then write a load of political beliefs that are nothing to do with child abuse being bad, you can see why there would be concern. Particularly if anyone expressing doubts about that is then accused of not thinking that child abuse is bad. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I wouldn't send them money if you don't agree with them.

It's about more than simply financial support obviously. 

[aintforever]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's about more than simply financial support obviously. 

Maybe go on the march then but put small print on your placard?

 

BLACK LIVES MATTER*

* This means that black lives matter but I do not agree with certain political ideas on specific websites affiliated to the Black live matter movement.

[hypochondriac]

Clearly you don't want to have a sensible conversation. It's not specific websites, it appears to be the official website of the movement and is named exactly the same as the slogan. Affiliates of the website have spoken in the media recently about the movement and fundraisers asking people to support 'blacklivesmatter" have expressed similar aims. 

I expect that most people who aren't just on a wind up recognise why there would be doubts from some about supporting a movement with obvious links to a political movement that many would disagree with. 

[aintforever]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Clearly you don't want to have a sensible conversation. It's not specific websites, it appears to be the official website of the movement and is named exactly the same as the slogan. Affiliates of the website have spoken in the media recently about the movement and fundraisers asking people to support 'blacklivesmatter" have expressed similar aims. 

I expect that most people who aren't just on a wind up recognise why there would be doubts from some about supporting a movement with obvious links to a political movement that many would disagree with. 

I'm being as sensible as you are.

It's obvious to everyone that people making gestures like taking the knee are simply making an ant-racism gesture in response to what happened to in the US not subscribing to anything political.  That's why all sorts of people and organisations are doing it.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I'm being as sensible as you are.

It's obvious to everyone that people making gestures like taking the knee are simply making an ant-racism gesture in response to what happened to in the US not subscribing to anything political.  That's why all sorts of people and organisations are doing it.

It isn't obvious at all. There's a ton of people expressing reservations over this and it's partly why you're getting ridiculous calls to ban old media and children's shows like paw patrol. No sensible person believes that black lives don't matter. 

[Batman]

In other news, swing low, sweet chariot could be banned from being sung at Twickenham and momentum is gathering behind the demand to defund the guardian

And Aladdin is offensive

Edited 18 June, 2020 by Batman

[hypochondriac]

Green King came out with a strong statement apologising because one of their founders had links with slavery. To try to make it right they are donating a sizable amount in reparations to the black community. The very least the guardian could do is to follow their lead. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Green King came out with a strong statement apologising because one of their founders had links with slavery. To try to make it right they are donating a sizable amount in reparations to the black community. The very least the guardian could do is to follow their lead. 

Another reason to stop drinking the slop  they call real ale. 

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Another reason to stop drinking the slop  they call real ale. 

Why? I think it’s commendable they’re making a meaningful financial donation instead of just empty gestures and social media grandstanding.

[sadoldgit]

7 hours ago, aintforever said:

It's great how the Football clubs, players and officials have all shown their support for Black Lives Matter.

It's not just about being anti-racist, it's actually showing it that makes a difference.

Given the number of black players here it is good to see all players supporting the campaign. Hopefully it will also give a boost to the Kick It Out campaign and also be a kick in the teeth to the morons who still think it is ok to absurd black players at football matches.

[Fan The Flames]

6 hours ago, st.bangkok said:

I would imagine, like me, you would be confused as to why one is OK and the other not.

There's nothing to be confused about. Symbols are not allowed on international shirts. England wanted a poppy on theirs but were not allowed as FIFA have a blanket ban on 'political' symbols. Didn't they agree to let us wear poppy armbands? The FA allow poppies on club shirts and have done for years. 

[Fan The Flames]

Isn't being against BLM like being against Children in Need?

[sadoldgit]

The Kick Racism Out Of Sport campaign was launched in 1993. 27 years later and it is still a problem. No wonder the frustrations have boiled over.

[Lighthouse]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Given the number of black players here it is good to see all players supporting the campaign. Hopefully it will also give a boost to the Kick It Out campaign and also be a kick in the teeth to the morons who still think it is ok to absurd black players at football matches.

As noble as it is, the message has been out there, quite strongly, for decades. If a small minority have managed to ignore everything which has gone before, I doubt this is going to make much difference. There will always be a small element of prejudice in society.

3 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Isn't being against BLM like being against Children in Need?

Again, it depends whether you mean the group or the statement. If CiN had a stated aim to criminalise abortion, I wouldn’t support them but that wouldn’t mean I want children to suffer.

[Lord Duckhunter]

My issue is the precedent this sets. There’s nobody that can argue with the sentiment, but you can easily see other cases where clubs want to do similar. Had this happened 15 years ago you can bet your bottom dollar Liverpool would be walking out to “justice for the 96” on their shirts, you’d see Macann as a tribute to a missing girl. It won’t be long before there’s other worthy causes. And before anyone starts, I’m not comparing slavery or prejudice to one missing girl or 96 horrid deaths, but the fact it’ll make saying no harder for the jelly fish at the FA. 

I don’t know why sky had to ram it down our throats as if it was the most radical thing anyone’s ever done. The real radical thing to have done would have been to have stood up ala Peter Hitchens. I guess in 2020 that’ll make you a racist. 

[Batman]

Just read that Gary Linekar is actually a racist

 

My word!

Edited 18 June, 2020 by Batman

[Fan The Flames]

This has really riled some people, loads of people at work today were fuming. One bloke cancelled Sky Sports because of it, he was foaming about how the poppy was banned from shirts (it hasn't been) but BLM wasn't and then was raving that Aunt Bessies has taken a black lady of it's packaging. Perplexed I googled it and it was Uncle Ben's. The idiot got himself mad over shit that wasn't real, sounds about right.

[Fan The Flames]

7 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

It's a bit like starting a movement called "child abuse is bad". 

You could do the double knee to create awareness by symbolising both children and priests. 

[CB Fry]

They're coming for "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" now, lads.

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

They're coming for "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" now, lads.

Can we still Swing Lowe?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

They're coming for "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" now, lads.

What if you sing it in a mock reggae style and just say it's a homage to ub40? 

[Batman]

8 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

This has really riled some people, loads of people at work today were fuming. One bloke cancelled Sky Sports because of it, he was foaming about how the poppy was banned from shirts (it hasn't been) but BLM wasn't and then was raving that Aunt Bessies has taken a black lady of it's packaging. Perplexed I googled it and it was Uncle Ben's. The idiot got himself mad over shit that wasn't real, sounds about right.

Given much of this nonsense has been about slavery; not a peep about modern day slavery or the role of other cultures in the barbaric trade. Given the UK is such a diverse nation, amazed that the faux anger is only directed in one area.

Just seems that historic british slavery that not a single person alive has anything to do with, is bad (along with America), all other slavery is not worth talking about ...almost as if this is a culture war...

If anyone in the public eye does not take the knee, their career is at best severely damaged for a while, or probably finished

Oh then there is the Marxist aims around BLM, which of course, must not be debated by the MSM.

Edited 19 June, 2020 by Batman