Revenge of the Pangolins...

[Guided Missile]

...followed by Revenge of the Western World.

 

 

Forget the conspiracy theories. The danger to human health from eating wildlife was known to the Chinese well over a thousand years ago:

Pangolin hot pot is considered a delicacy. Officials have been known to try to impress high-level guests with a pangolin meat stir-fry. Braise or steam pangolin with ginger and citronella, and show off the results online. The meat is a status symbol. The scales, in particular, are thought to have health properties. In one 2015 survey, 70 percent of Chinese respondents said they believed that consuming pangolin could cure rheumatism and skin diseases and heal wounds. People hold some of these beliefs thinking they are rooted in traditional Chinese cuisine and medicine.

If anything, the meat of pangolins was believed to cause ailments, rather than cure any: It tastes bitter and was thought to be poisonous. “Beiji Qianjin Yaofang” (备急千金要方), a collection of prescriptions compiled by Sun Simiao, an alchemist of the Tang dynasty, advised in 652: “There are lurking ailments in our stomachs. Don’t eat the meat of pangolins, because it may trigger them and harm us.” “Bencao Gangmu” (本草纲目, Compendium of Materia Medica), the Chinese medicine and cuisine capstone by Li Shizhen (1518-93) — an herbalist, naturalist and physician — warned that people who eat pangolin “may contract chronic diarrhea, and then go into convulsion and get a fever.”

 

The West will rise again and the revenge meted out on China, will send them back to the dark ages, from where they came. What the hell were we thinking, engaging with a freedom hating, corrupt, lying country, just to buy more sh!t, we don't need, made by exploited mass labour, at artificially low prices. This tragedy will not be forgotten...

[Guided Missile]

And as if by magic, a report from the Henry Jackson Society has just been published, here.

 

Global lawsuits against China for “patent breaches” of the International Health Regulations over its handling of COVID-19 could run to at least £3.2 trillion from just the nations of the G7, according to a newly released report. The report claims that the Chinese government’s early handling of the disease and failure to adequately report information to the WHO breached Articles Six and Seven of the International Health Regulations [iHRs], a Treaty to which China is a signatory and legally obliged to uphold. These breaches allowed the outbreak to rapidly spread outside Wuhan, its place of origin.

 

In particular, our research has discovered that the Chinese government:

 

• Failed to disclose data that would have revealed evidence of human-to-human transmission for a period of up to three weeks from being aware of it, in breach of Articles six and seven of the IHRs.
  
• Provided the WHO with erroneous information about the number of infections between 2 January 2020 and 11 January 2020, in breach of Articles Six and Seven of the IHRs.
  
• Failed to proscribe avoidable vectors of lethal zoonotic (animal-originated) viral infection, instead actively promoting the massive proliferation of dangerous viral host species for human consumption in breach of Article 12 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights.
  
• Allowed 5 million people (roughly equivalent to the size of The San Francisco Metropolitan Area, CA or Greater Boston, MA in the USA, and roughly five times the size of a city the size of Birmingham, UK) to leave Wuhan before imposing the lockdown on 23 January 2020 despite knowledge of human-to-human transmission.
  

The minutes of the UK’s scientific advisory group on new and emerging viral threats record how the lack of information delayed the response to the virus including the lack of travel screening, according to an outline in the report. A University of Southampton study has previously found that — should strict quarantine measures have been introduced three weeks earlier — the disease’s spread would have been reduced by some 95%.

Don't get mad, get even...

[Raging Bull]

Good, I hope the rest of the world takes action against them. They’ve lied throughout

[badgerx16]

..... more sh!t, we don't need, .

Yet last week a company that makes ventilators for the NHS said they had issues with ramping up production because they couldn't get enough of their electrical components from China, and the virus testing kits need specialised plastics, also from China.

Edited 6 April, 2020 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

GM quoting a NeoCon think tank. Who would have thought it.

[badgerx16]

Good, I hope the rest of the world takes action against them. They’ve lied throughout

I suspect most Governments have.

[Guided Missile]

Yet last week a company that makes ventilators for the NHS said they had issues with ramping up production because they couldn't get enough of their electrical components from China, and the virus testing kits need specialised plastics, also from China.

..to treat a virus we got from China.

 

No very smart, are you, you brainwashed leftie...?

[badgerx16]

..to treat a virus we got from China.

 

No very smart, are you, you brainwashed leftie...?

Nor are you for a xenophobic bigot. Would you prefer we didn't treat it ?

 

How much equipment in your home and business comes from China ? Could you function tomorrow if you didn't have it ? ( And if your answer is none then you are a lying xenophobic bigot ).

Edited 6 April, 2020 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

Nor are you for a xenophobic bigot. Would you prefer we didn't treat it ?

 

How much equipment in your home and business comes from China ? Could you function tomorrow if you didn't have it ? ( And if your answer is none then you are a lying xenophobic bigot ).

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

[Lighthouse]

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

 

So would I. Their 'official' death toll from all of this is just over 3,300, which is laughable really.

[Guided Missile]

I know I would be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

That's a bit xenophobic and bigoted....

[badgerx16]

That's a bit xenophobic and bigoted....

 

Being opposed to a political regime, and being opposed to foreigners, are 2 different things.

 

HTH

[Raging Bull]

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

 

100%.

 

I’ve now switched 1 manufacturer to Sri Lanka and will be looking to get products made locally.

 

The slave has taken control of the master, mainly America.

[Raging Bull]

I suspect most Governments have.

 

You’re probably right.

 

I read somewhere that the true Wuhan figure is closer to 40k, with an equal number of mobiles suddenly going quiet.

[hypochondriac]

I suspect most Governments have.

I think China are uniquely culpable for parts of this and indeed there are particularly egregious examples of authoritarianism that the west have turned a blind eye to due to their financial muscle and clout. I will be expecting a concerted and organised effort to remove them from our supply chains after this and I woild hope that other countries follow suit. We should be putting intense political pressure on morally bankrupt organisations like Google, Hollywood, Disney, and Apple and any number of less high profile organisations to leave China as soon as possible and to stop allowing the Chinese Market to influence their decisions. Enough is enough.

[buctootim]

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

 

You wouldn't even need to boycott. If there was a tax on aviation and shipping fuels and a carbon tax based on the amount of carbon released in manufacturing that would overnight transform the economics of producing locally rather than importing from China. At present the Carbon Emissions tax penalises UK production without an equivalent charge on Chinese production. There is an inconsistency though in GM's position which has been very anti EU tariffs on Chinese imports.

 

A friend of mine used to run the Russel Hobbs factory, now gone. The entire toaster and kettle factory was closed down because it was around 30p per unit cheaper to make in China than here. Not much on a £20 item.

Edited 6 April, 2020 by buctootim

[buctootim]

...followed by Revenge of the Western World.

 

Forget the conspiracy theories. The danger to human health from eating wildlife was known to the Chinese well over a thousand years ago:

 

 

The West will rise again and the revenge meted out on China, will send them back to the dark ages, from where they came. What the hell were we thinking, engaging with a freedom hating, corrupt, lying country, just to buy more sh!t, we don't need, made by exploited mass labour, at artificially low prices. This tragedy will not be forgotten...

 

I've been to Mong La. In Burma but controlled by China. Disgusting place, massive trade in endangered animals, child prostituition and drugs.

[shurlock]

Brexiters turning on China even though Brexit will make the UK more reliant on it.

 

Great thinking lads

[Guided Missile]

Southampton's own Benny Hill recognised the unusual nature of the Chinese diet years ago, when he made this documentary:

 

 

Taunton's most famous alumnus....

[Whitey Grandad]

Southampton's own Benny Hill recognised the unusual nature of the Chinese diet years ago, when he made this documentary:

 

 

Taunton's most famous alumnus....

 

"Just soya dumplings"

 

They don't write them like that any more

[Weston Super Saint]

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

 

Phew, lucky they're not funding (and intending to finish building) a Nuclear Power Station on our shores.... Oh...

[hypochondriac]

Phew, lucky they're not funding (and intending to finish building) a Nuclear Power Station on our shores.... Oh...

 

I would expect every aspect of China's influence on these shores to be up for discussion after this.

[Lighthouse]

I would expect every aspect of China's influence on these shores to be up for discussion after this.

 

You would have to wonder what their population make of it all. Gorbachev basically said that Chernobyl and the regime’s response to it was the biggest catalyst in bringing down the Soviet Union and that was largely isolated to parts of Ukraine and Belarus.

 

I know the media is very strictly controlled there but they must know that 3,300 deaths is a laughable figure. I wonder how they will respond when they eventually get back to normal.

[hypochondriac]

You would have to wonder what their population make of it all. Gorbachev basically said that Chernobyl and the regime’s response to it was the biggest catalyst in bringing down the Soviet Union and that was largely isolated to parts of Ukraine and Belarus.

 

I know the media is very strictly controlled there but they must know that 3,300 deaths is a laughable figure. I wonder how they will respond when they eventually get back to normal.

I was startled to the extent that many Chinese people put the state before themselves when i went there. I imagine that for some if Xi said it was for the good of the nation many of them would go along with it. That might change if they do get heavily boycotted.

[shurlock]

You would have to wonder what their population make of it all. Gorbachev basically said that Chernobyl and the regime’s response to it was the biggest catalyst in bringing down the Soviet Union and that was largely isolated to parts of Ukraine and Belarus.

 

I know the media is very strictly controlled there but they must know that 3,300 deaths is a laughable figure. I wonder how they will respond when they eventually get back to normal.

 

The thing with China is that it is extremely decentralised the central government will do what it always does when faced with discontent and play the public off against local officials all while presenting itself opportunistically as defender of the public interest. It’s a strategy that has worked effectively in the past and there’s no reason to think it won’t now.

Edited 6 April, 2020 by shurlock

[buctootim]

I was startled to the extent that many Chinese people put the state before themselves when i went there. I imagine that for some if Xi said it was for the good of the nation many of them would go along with it. That might change if they do get heavily boycotted.

 

Many peoples living standards have sky rocketed in one generation. Its like Russia - people dont like many aspects of the Government but they put up with it because the economy is good.

[StDunko]

You’re probably right.

 

I read somewhere that the true Wuhan figure is closer to 40k, with an equal number of mobiles suddenly going quiet.

 

What's your source of the info about mobiles? I'd not heard that before...

[Wes Tender]

Brexiters turning on China even though Brexit will make the UK more reliant on it.

 

Great thinking lads

 

Really? I didn't realise that leaving the EU meant that the government wasn't able to pursue its own policies of where it imported stuff from, or indeed that individuals were prevented from making their decisions on whether they wanted to boycott Chinese products.

[Jonnyboy]

It's a very real problem that we have become so reliant on China. Hopefully this crisis will permenently change things. I know I woild be prepared to pay more if it meant we boycotted that terrible and irresponsible regime.

 

Bullsh*t

[hypochondriac]

Bullsh*t

Give it a rest mate you're boring.

[Jonnyboy]

Give it a rest mate you're boring.

 

I will when you've sent all you Chinese made goods back to China.

[Raging Bull]

I will when you've sent all you Chinese made goods back to China.

 

Ok mate...

[hypochondriac]

I will when you've sent all you Chinese made goods back to China.

I see that the point has gone over your head.

[aintforever]

You wouldn't even need to boycott. If there was a tax on aviation and shipping fuels and a carbon tax based on the amount of carbon released in manufacturing that would overnight transform the economics of producing locally rather than importing from China. At present the Carbon Emissions tax penalises UK production without an equivalent charge on Chinese production. There is an inconsistency though in GM's position which has been very anti EU tariffs on Chinese imports.

 

A friend of mine used to run the Russel Hobbs factory, now gone. The entire toaster and kettle factory was closed down because it was around 30p per unit cheaper to make in China than here. Not much on a £20 item.

 

This. A carbon tax is the way forward, both to benefit local manufacturing and combat climate change.

 

As for China, they need to stop eating dodgy **** and close down every single wet market they have. Didn't bird flu and SARS also both originate from these disgusting places?

[Weston Super Saint]

This. A carbon tax is the way forward, both to benefit local manufacturing and combat climate change.

 

As for China, they need to stop eating dodgy **** and close down every single wet market they have. Didn't bird flu and SARS also both originate from these disgusting places?

 

Wow, just wow!

 

Possibly one of the most racists things I've read on this forum! Presuming to tell an entire race what they can and can't eat because you have (wrongly) made the assumption that eating 'dodgy ****' from 'disgusting places' caused SARS!

[Lighthouse]

This. A carbon tax is the way forward, both to benefit local manufacturing and combat climate change.

 

As for China, they need to stop eating dodgy **** and close down every single wet market they have. Didn't bird flu and SARS also both originate from these disgusting places?

 

Absolutely this; livestock does not belong in built up areas. There have been charities campaigning for years to stop this sort of trade. Tiny cages stacked on top of each other of various animals, p*ssing and sh*tting onto the one below, then selling them for human consumption. If the Chinese don't put a stop to it, one day they're going to breed something properly, properly nasty that'll wipe out half the planet before we can develop a cure.

[egg]

Absolutely this; livestock does not belong in built up areas. There have been charities campaigning for years to stop this sort of trade. Tiny cages stacked on top of each other of various animals, p*ssing and sh*tting onto the one below, then selling them for human consumption. If the Chinese don't put a stop to it, one day they're going to breed something properly, properly nasty that'll wipe out half the planet before we can develop a cure.

Serious question, do you believe we could be half wiped out cos someone eats an animal covered in sh:t from another animal?

[aintforever]

Wow, just wow!

 

Possibly one of the most racists things I've read on this forum! Presuming to tell an entire race what they can and can't eat because you have (wrongly) made the assumption that eating 'dodgy ****' from 'disgusting places' caused SARS!

 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/the-chinese-wild-animal-industry-and-wet-markets-must-go/

 

"After the SARS outbreak in 2003, which was traced to a wet market in the southern Guangdong Province, a temporary ban on wet markets and the wild-animal industry were put in place. In July of that year, the World Health Organization declared the SARS virus contained, and in August the Chinese government lifted the ban.

 

Wet markets are found the world over, typically open-air sites selling fresh meat, seafood, and produce. The meats often are butchered and trimmed on-site. Markets in China have come in for justifiable condemnation because of the way they’ve evolved, commingling traditional livestock with a wide variety of wild animals, including exotic and endangered species. Many are quite unsanitary, with blood, entrails, excrement, and other waste creating the conditions for disease that migrates from animals to people through virus, bacteria, and other forms of transmission. Such “zoonotic diseases” that have emerged from China and other regions of the world include Ebola, HIV, bird flu, swine flu, and SARS."

[Whitey Grandad]

Serious question, do you believe we could be half wiped out cos someone eats an animal covered in sh:t from another animal?

 

It’s entirely possible. Not everybody would be wiped out but ‘life as we know it’ would be a distant memory.

[Whitey Grandad]

This article in The Guardian raises some important issues. It points the finger at changes to intensive farming techniques.

 

 

“As industrial farming concerns took up more and more land, these small-scale farmers were pushed out geographically too – closer to uncultivable zones. Closer to the edge of the forest, that is, where bats and the viruses that infect them lurk. The density and frequency of contacts at that first interface increased, and hence, so did the risk of a spillover.“

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/28/is-factory-farming-to-blame-for-coronavirus

[badgerx16]

Serious question, do you believe we could be half wiped out cos someone eats an animal covered in sh:t from another animal?

Not so far fetched; imagine if a disease emerged and spread in a similar way to COVID-19 and had a mortality rate of 30%,.

[egg]

Not so far fetched; imagine if a disease emerged and spread in a similar way to COVID-19 and had a mortality rate of 30%,.

 

From, one animal ****ting on an animal that's then eaten? An animal that will likely be washed, skinned and cooked?

[Lighthouse]

From, one animal ****ting on an animal that's then eaten? An animal that will likely be washed, skinned and cooked?

 

Well we’ve ended up with a worldwide lockdown thanks to a disease with a 1% fatality rate been bred in one of these places. It’s no coincidence that these things crop up in abused, unhygienic, urban livestock in some of the most densely populated conurbations on the planet. These things never seem to originate from vegan restaurants in Copenhagen.

 

What if another strain of SARS mutates, with a 20% fatality rate, that mutates so that even survivors can catch it again after three months? Four months ago, what we’ve got now was unthinkable, like something out of a dystopian zombie movie.

[egg]

Well we’ve ended up with a worldwide lockdown thanks to a disease with a 1% fatality rate been bred in one of these places. It’s no coincidence that these things crop up in abused, unhygienic, urban livestock in some of the most densely populated conurbations on the planet. These things never seem to originate from vegan restaurants in Copenhagen.

 

What if another strain of SARS mutates, with a 20% fatality rate, that mutates so that even survivors can catch it again after three months? Four months ago, what we’ve got now was unthinkable, like something out of a dystopian zombie movie.

We've ended up with a pandemic flowing from wuhan. Speculation is that it began after a fella ate a dodgy bat. Unless and until there's widespread international acceptance that was the source, I'll keep an open mind.

[Weston Super Saint]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/the-chinese-wild-animal-industry-and-wet-markets-must-go/

 

"After the SARS outbreak in 2003, which was traced to a wet market in the southern Guangdong Province, a temporary ban on wet markets and the wild-animal industry were put in place. In July of that year, the World Health Organization declared the SARS virus contained, and in August the Chinese government lifted the ban.

 

Wet markets are found the world over, typically open-air sites selling fresh meat, seafood, and produce. The meats often are butchered and trimmed on-site. Markets in China have come in for justifiable condemnation because of the way they’ve evolved, commingling traditional livestock with a wide variety of wild animals, including exotic and endangered species. Many are quite unsanitary, with blood, entrails, excrement, and other waste creating the conditions for disease that migrates from animals to people through virus, bacteria, and other forms of transmission. Such “zoonotic diseases” that have emerged from China and other regions of the world include Ebola, HIV, bird flu, swine flu, and SARS."

 

Odd that the WHO doesn't share that opinion.

 

Cause

SARS coronavirus (SARS-CoV) – virus identified in 2003. SARS-CoV is thought to be an animal virus from an as-yet-uncertain animal reservoir, perhaps bats, that spread to other animals (civet cats) and first infected humans in the Guangdong province of southern China in 2002.

 

https://www.who.int/ith/diseases/sars/en/

[shurlock]

Odd that the WHO doesn't share that opinion.

 

 

 

https://www.who.int/ith/diseases/sars/en/

 

It’s not inconsistent with aintforever’s argument either. Where does the WHO specifically state that SARS didn’t start in a wet market? It’s silent on the issue. All it says is that it likely jumped from one animal (possibly bats) to another (i.e. civet cats) infecting the first human in Guangdong. Aren’t there wet markets in Guangdong? Aren’t bats and civet cats bought and sold at wet markets?

 

(On a side note, civet cat is a culinary delicacy in parts of China and in principle the type of prized possession you’d expect to see sold in a wet market; but that’s an argument for another day).

Edited 10 April, 2020 by shurlock

[RedArmy]

Well we’ve ended up with a worldwide lockdown thanks to a disease with a 1% fatality rate been bred in one of these places. It’s no coincidence that these things crop up in abused, unhygienic, urban livestock in some of the most densely populated conurbations on the planet. These things never seem to originate from vegan restaurants in Copenhagen.

 

What if another strain of SARS mutates, with a 20% fatality rate, that mutates so that even survivors can catch it again after three months? Four months ago, what we’ve got now was unthinkable, like something out of a dystopian zombie movie.

0.1%

[Guided Missile]

The lawyers are off and running:

The US state of Missouri is suing the Chinese government and the ruling Communist Party over what it calls deliberate deception leading to the global Covid-19 pandemic. "The Chinese government lied to the world about the danger and contagious nature of Covid-19, silenced whistleblowers and did little to stop the spread of the disease," Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt said. "They must be held accountable for their actions." The lawsuit seeks damages for the loss of life, human suffering, and economic turmoil that has occurred in the state.

Just the start...

[aintforever]

China should be held to account over this but surely the US government calling it a democratic hoax is just as much deliberate deception?

[aintforever]

Odd that the WHO doesn't share that opinion.

 

 

 

https://www.who.int/ith/diseases/sars/en/

 

WHO Developing guidance on wet markets.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52369878

 

Wet markets can be "timebombs" for epidemics, says Prof Andrew Cunningham, deputy director of science at the Zoological Society of London (ZSL). "This sort of way that we treat... animals as if they're just our commodities for us to plunder - it comes back to bite us and it's no surprise."