Lowe Is In A No Win Position - It Worries Me

[saint1977]

I dont disagree with that, but no matter how hard and effectively he works - everyone knows we need a clinical goal scorer and would still need one even if Ferguson was in charge. Even if just Euell disappeared we could afford to pay for someone who would convert many of those long range chances currently going begging.

 

Agreed but with a better knowledge of UK football, we may have found a player like Jason Scotland at Swansea say that wouldn't have cost a great deal. As for Euell, sadly no club is going to take him unless he's desperate for first XI action wherever he can get it. I wouldn't pay him £1500 a week. Whoever signed that deal and authorised it - surprise surprise Mr Wiseman's name popped up again - should be shot.

[saint1977]

I know positive statements were made a month or two into the season but I was speaking of the big press conference when JP and Woote were announced and the reasons given. If you could find those comments (in full) you would see they were very negative (almost apologetic) for a managerial unveiling. Unfortunately the unabridged version was only on the OS and I have been unable to track it down on Google.

 

Actually just before I posted I deleted a line where I had written that JP had ‘made a rod for his own back’ by claiming we might be good enough to get into the play offs. I deleted it, with a few more sentences, to make the post more compact.

 

I don’t disagree with a lot of your other comments, but I was not really defending Lowe or his plan here, there are always alternatives but I feel the alternatives are also gambles (assuming they are even financially viable).

 

A few months back one regular poster on here suggested an 'alternative' the club could have taken; he suggested we could sell Lallana and Surman and bring in experienced players (on Bosmans/Cheap) but on decent wages with the transfer money. Is that really any less of a gamble? We would then be deliberately weakening our team in the hope the handful of experienced incomers would not only make up for the talent gap but significantly improve on it. As it has turned out no one seems to want them anyway, or if they are sold the money we would get is likely to be very low. It might also affect the morale of our other players, especially those playing well on a fraction of the wages of the new boys. Gambling all round.

 

Again, I stress that is not to defend Lowe or all the decisions he has made, but I just think anything we do at the moment is a big risk as we are so seriously broke.

 

Fair, considered post GTF. Lallana I think could still be an asset in this situation but Drew, after a really bright start this season, has been very poor later last year and so far this year. I know Rupert would be hammered on here and I'll get hammered now for saying it but if we were offered £3-3.5m, I'd rip someone's hand off. I know Drew says he wants to stay etc and I'm sure he's giving 100% but he looks off the pace, stale and a bit disinterested. I think Drew needs a fresh start and we need the money.

 

The morale seems to be very low overall, there is very little bounce about the lads and even the more pleasant football from earlier in the season seems to have gone. On Saturday you would struggle to say they played for JP yet Doncaster, with similar resources to us, played for O'Driscoll, won most of the challenges and are probably a good striker away from a decent CCC side.

[GreenTreeFrog]

I notice you've not denied it.

 

What would be the point?

[Mole]

What would be the point?

 

And you've still not denied it.

[saint1977]

I know positive statements were made a month or two into the season but I was speaking of the big press conference when JP and Woote were announced and the reasons given. If you could find those comments (in full) you would see they were very negative (almost apologetic) for a managerial unveiling. Unfortunately the unabridged version was only on the OS and I have been unable to track it down on Google.

 

Actually just before I posted I deleted a line where I had written that JP had ‘made a rod for his own back’ by claiming we might be good enough to get into the play offs. I deleted it, with a few more sentences, to make the post more compact.

 

I don’t disagree with a lot of your other comments, but I was not really defending Lowe or his plan here, there are always alternatives but I feel the alternatives are also gambles (assuming they are even financially viable).

 

A few months back one regular poster on here suggested an 'alternative' the club could have taken; he suggested we could sell Lallana and Surman and bring in experienced players (on Bosmans/Cheap) but on decent wages with the transfer money. Is that really any less of a gamble? We would then be deliberately weakening our team in the hope the handful of experienced incomers would not only make up for the talent gap but significantly improve on it. As it has turned out no one seems to want them anyway, or if they are sold the money we would get is likely to be very low. It might also affect the morale of our other players, especially those playing well on a fraction of the wages of the new boys. Gambling all round.

 

Again, I stress that is not to defend Lowe or all the decisions he has made, but I just think anything we do at the moment is a big risk as we are so seriously broke.

 

Actually, that's the other thing I meant to say. Every decision is a risk but it's about quantifying that risk. If you bring in someone who knows Ls 1&2, the SPL and has contacts in nearby national leagues in Europe, that risk is reduced a bit. If you bring someone in who probably hasn't been to a CCC game ever before, that increases the risk signficantly. Look at some of the players Martinez has brought in for Swansea for peanuts yet I thought the whole point of Wotte was to try and bring in the next Ferry Bodde (minus the injured cruciate...)?

[Summers]

we need a Pahars type player, pop up on the last day and score two ;-p

[Ponty]

And you've still not denied it.

Lay off him Stanley, he's not MW.

[Graffito]

When the heat's on Chairmen they tend to sack the manager. I think Lowe could sack JP without undermining his strategy. The strategy is not dependent on JP being Head Coach. A replacement Head Coach would not bring a radical change of direction because of the financial restraints. Lowe hasn't sacked JP probably because the club can't attract a decent replacement.

[GreenTreeFrog]

As usual good post from you but this is what ****es most of us off...we were fed the line Pearson was too expensive - OK given he may of needed back room staff but we could of utilised existing Hockaday and Henderson more as at the moment it looks athough they are being wasted.

Now we have Wotte, Gorre and an alleged DOF on the bill.

We have seen 5 loan signings who are quite frankly abysmal standard.

I have seen them all play several times and there were better options 2 that would not of cost the earth Lucketti(even at his age far better than Lancashire)

and Andy Bishop from Bury who was one of the best strikers I saw last season.

 

I cannot see how anyone can defend Lowe(not that you are) when I fail to see anything he has done since his return has worked.

Not to defend Lowe but the claims that he said we brought the Dutch pair in as we could not afford Pearson’s wages are not true. At the unveiling conference Lowe said JP and Woote would be on less BASIC WAGE than Pearson was on, but if success bonuses were paid they would be ON HIGHER WAGES than he had been on. He said it was only right success was rewarded in this way.

 

The only problem is, as I said in the main post, I cannot trace the ‘unabridged version’ of the unveiling, where those comments are clearly stated. Only the edited (reported) versions with shorter comments by Michael Wilde are easily found and no comments on managers wages are reported there.

 

I admit the recent transcript of the AGM adds a lot of confusion though. According to those reports Lowe claimed he did offer Pearson the job but it was turned down as Pearson wanted to keep the high wages he had been paid under Crouch (the comment was an attack on Crouch’s financial handling of club finances). IF that were true it could still fit in with the original comments (that the Dutch were on a higher wage if successful) if Pearson was unwilling to take the same bonus scheme offered to JP and Woote. .

[Gemmel]

When the heat's on Chairmen they tend to sack the manager. I think Lowe could sack JP without undermining his strategy. The strategy is not dependent on JP being Head Coach. A replacement Head Coach would not bring a radical change of direction because of the financial restraints. Lowe hasn't sacked JP probably because the club can't attract a decent replacement.

 

I couldn't disagree more and the main reason why something will have to give.

JP IS lowes stratergy and lowes alone. Wotte was linked to the job long before wilde came on the scene and JP was met and courted (And no doubt promised) before wilde and lowe had the big love in. The whole total football crap that the OS gushed over, the hype and spin were done (If nt written) under lowes guideance. It was and is a disaster waiting to happen and the veyr fact that lowe hasn't sacked him, is because he would lose so much face that his experiment has failed, he would have to walk himself. The only other option, which is the one he has gone for is to sweat it out and hope the boyscze come good.

 

Whatever the state of our club, this STILL is Southampton Football club and i am sure we could attract a number of decent managers.

[trousers]

I know positive statements were made a month or two into the season but I was speaking of the big press conference when JP and Woote were announced and the reasons given. If you could find those comments (in full) you would see they were very negative (almost apologetic) for a managerial unveiling. Unfortunately the unabridged version was only on the OS and I have been unable to track it down on Google.

 

Or...(about to steal Stanley's thunder alert)...perhaps you had access to the unabridged version before it was published on the OS....not sure who would have access to such material of course...

[Mole]

Lay off him Stanley, he's not MW.

 

Or...(about to steal Stanley's thunder alert)...perhaps you had access to the unabridged version before it was published on the OS....not sure who would have access to such material of course...

 

Thanks both Ponty and Trousers.

 

 

GTF has been on my radar for a while though and Trousers comment does nothing to change that.

[buctootim]

Thanks both Ponty and Trousers.

 

 

GTF has been on my radar for a while though and Trousers comment does nothing to change that.

 

Thats because you're not used to a forum where people are allowed to have different views and ideas.

[GreenTreeFrog]

Or...(about to steal Stanley's thunder alert)...perhaps you had access to the unabridged version before it was published on the OS....not sure who would have access to such material of course...

 

 

 

When I say 'unabridged' what I mean was that printed on the OS (and shown on sky sports news). Both were quite detailed but the news media reports were quite limited. I assume the OS does not keep news archives longer than a few months, at least they dont seem to show up on google or yahoo.

[Gemmel]

When I say 'unabridged' what I mean was that printed on the OS (and shown on sky sports news). Both were quite detailed but the news media reports were quite limited. I assume the OS does not keep news archives longer than a few months, at least they dont seem to show up on google or yahoo.

 

 

No they go way back, just go on the OS and search

[Pancake]

When I say 'unabridged' what I mean was that printed on the OS (and shown on sky sports news). Both were quite detailed but the news media reports were quite limited. I assume the OS does not keep news archives longer than a few months, at least they dont seem to show up on google or yahoo.

 

You can go back for years with the OS news I think...

[Mole]

You can go back for years with the OS news I think...

 

He already knew that.

[Pancake]

One of these I would guess:

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10167

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10168

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10171

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10172

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10173

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/?page_id=10174

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I really do not see any validity in the Lowe is doing it to buy the club on the cheap argument.

 

If the club goes into Admin then the "liquidator" has to raise cash to pay off the creditors. So we know that is around 22mil for the mortgage, somewhere between 5 and 8mil for Barclays. Then his fees will add something like a mil, and then there will be the staff payouts for redundancy (yes the company no longer exists they have no jobs) and then the bills for taxes rates etc.

 

Where will they get that money from? Selling everything that can be moved - players, property and the like. How much would we get at auction for all our wonderful sports science equipment? About 50 quid down the car boot sale....

 

Who will buy a stadium? The only possible people who need one are the Sk*tes - get SMS for 5 mil - bargain. We'll be left looking for out of contract players who want to train on the common every day and change in the municipal changing rooms.

 

Good grief people they would even have to sell THE CATERING EQUIPMENT. (How on EARTH would you get a pre-match or half-time beer then!)

 

The point is that sure there could still be a club, but it will be left with nothing. The debts are too high to cover a Liququidation Sale.

 

Renting the ground from a property speculator or sharing it, no decent players, no land for the Academy players to train on, nothing. So we won't even qualify for Academy status, so that reduces the levl of kids who want to sign for us.

 

Does any sane person really think that running a shell of a club like that is the sort of thing anybody except a totally devoted and wealthy fan would want to do? (ie by our own admissions - not a narcisstic business guru)

 

It could take decades to recover and most of us will lose what has been an important part of our lives

 

 

Why would a buyer have to pay £22m to discharge the mortgage?

 

There is absolutely no obligation to. Aviva or whatever Norwich Union are called now would presumably foreclose... and do what with the stadium? In the current climate they aint gonna sell it for redevelopment, so they'd have to give the buyer of the club a tenancy/lease, or renegotiate the mortgage. I can't see the skates wanting St Mary's when they have acres of development land around Fratton Park, which they would't get much for at the moment

 

My bet is Lowe is playing this game with them right now because it isn't in their interests to foreclose and force administration... unless they have already been approached by people who could make them a better offer.

 

Setting aside the mortgage issue, I can't see Barclays forcing Administration for 5-8m, although I guess there must be some equity in the stadium they could take a share of if hardball was their game, though I doubt it is.

 

It all sounds to me like Lowe threatening administration in order to get some debt rescheduling, because the climate is probably the best he's going to get to play this game. He'd rather do that than bite the bullet and seriously look for a buyer.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I really do not see any validity in the Lowe is doing it to buy the club on the cheap argument.

 

If the club goes into Admin then the "liquidator" has to raise cash to pay off the creditors. So we know that is around 22mil for the mortgage, somewhere between 5 and 8mil for Barclays. Then his fees will add something like a mil, and then there will be the staff payouts for redundancy (yes the company no longer exists they have no jobs) and then the bills for taxes rates etc.

 

Where will they get that money from? Selling everything that can be moved - players, property and the like. How much would we get at auction for all our wonderful sports science equipment? About 50 quid down the car boot sale....

 

Who will buy a stadium? The only possible people who need one are the Sk*tes - get SMS for 5 mil - bargain. We'll be left looking for out of contract players who want to train on the common every day and change in the municipal changing rooms.

 

Good grief people they would even have to sell THE CATERING EQUIPMENT. (How on EARTH would you get a pre-match or half-time beer then!)

 

The point is that sure there could still be a club, but it will be left with nothing. The debts are too high to cover a Liququidation Sale.

 

Renting the ground from a property speculator or sharing it, no decent players, no land for the Academy players to train on, nothing. So we won't even qualify for Academy status, so that reduces the levl of kids who want to sign for us.

 

Does any sane person really think that running a shell of a club like that is the sort of thing anybody except a totally devoted and wealthy fan would want to do? (ie by our own admissions - not a narcisstic business guru)

 

It could take decades to recover and most of us will lose what has been an important part of our lives

 

 

Why would a buyer have to pay £22m to discharge the mortgage?

 

There is absolutely no obligation to. Aviva or whatever Norwich Union are called now would presumably foreclose... and do what with the stadium? In the current climate they aint gonna sell it for redevelopment, so they give the buyer of the club a tenancy/lease, or renegotiate the mortgage. I can't see the skates wanting St Mary's when they have acres of development land around Fratton Park, which they would't get much for at the moment

 

My bet is Lowe is playing this game with them right now because it isn't in their interests to foreclose and force administration... unless they have already been approached by people who could make them a better offer than Lowe might be trying to get.

 

Setting aside the mortgage issue, I can't see Barclays forcing Administration for 5-8m, although I guess there must be some equity in the stadium they could take a share of if hardball was their game, though I doubt it is.

 

It all sounds to me like Lowe threatening administration in order to get some debt rescheduling, because the climate is probably the best he's going to get to play this game. He'd rather do that than bite the bullet and seriously look for a buyer.

[offix]

IMHO, Lowe, as CEO , is in a no win position given our current plight.

 

If he bumbles on with this sorry experiment, then he will be accused by many of indecision, putting his own ego driven experiment before the good of the Club. A failure to act will be seen as many as a sign of weakness, indecision and/or a sign of his ego making the decisions.

 

I don't think he cares about that at all. If he did, he would have never come back from his previous disastrous stint.

[GreenTreeFrog]

You can go back for years with the OS news I think...

 

OK, thanks Pancake and Gemmel (above) for that. I will check it out later.

[SaintRobbie]

 

It all sounds to me like Lowe threatening administration in order to get some debt rescheduling, because the climate is probably the best he's going to get to play this game. He'd rather do that than bite the bullet and seriously look for a buyer.

 

That's an interesting thesis. But all he'd be doing is postponing the FINAL demise of the business.

 

If this is true it would prove one thing... he does not have the interests of the Club in mind at all ... only the temporary survival of the plc.

 

Has to be delaying the inevitable and sentencing Saints to guaranteed relegation in the process using this strategy. If he takes administration at the last safe moment in March for loss of points prior to next season and we're already dead and heading down by then anyway I suppose people will say 'he had no choice'.

 

Still wont change one thing... regardless which way he leads us it WILL result in relegation given either strategy. Unless he's ousted NOW and a new manager is put in we're certain for League 1.

 

There's still some hope... 1 point at the moment... get a new managerment system NOW.

[WealdSaint]

I wonder how good Lowe's relationship with the various large share holders who backed him is?

 

My hunch is they backed him because he told them he was the man to save the club from administration and therefore their money invested in saints shares.

 

The sudden revelations in the Daily Mail could possible be the signs of splits within Ruperts backers as some of them are having doubts about if they picked the right chap. The purpose of the revelation being to remind them, and everybody else, about how terribly close we are to administration and how if we don't do as Uncles Rupert tells us and not critise his all wise decisions then the whole club will go to the wall.

[SaintRobbie]

I wonder how good Lowe's relationship with the various large share holders who backed him is?

 

My hunch is they backed him because he told them he was the man to save the club from administration and therefore their money invested in saints shares.

 

The sudden revelations in the Daily Mail could possible be the signs of splits within Ruperts backers as some of them are having doubts about if they picked the right chap. The purpose of the revelation being to remind them, and everybody else, about how terribly close we are to administration and how if we don't do as Uncles Rupert tells us and not critise his all wise decisions then the whole club will go to the wall.

 

I still think Lowe may have been stitched up by his friends to fail... but hey ho...

 

This is a very good analogy and certainly fits Lowe's modus operandi. Lowe can use the Mail - we know that. He used it yesterday to have a veiled go at Crouch again to deflect blame. Today he doesnt seem to threaten administration more make it inevitable though.

 

I still can't understand one fundamental... Why are Lowe and Wilde not saying we need a buyer? I don't get it unless they have something to gain from administration and relegation. But what?

[chi saint]

What this is all about for Rupes and understandably so, is personal pride, I suspect money and personal profit play only a peripheral role.

 

We need to remember he was once in charge of a respected, relatively successful club, he sat on various committees within the game, had a media presence and commanded respect, not necessarily praise but respect.

 

Clearly when falling from such a height as he has, to where he and the club are now why would he not want to climb his way back up?

 

I suspect he was probably not that popular amongst his fellow chairman, when he was at his zenith, there were still men at that time from the old school in charge of clubs, who were in the main philanthropists, not looking to make a profit but rather had an attachment to their club and community, which was something Rupes couldn't say.

 

I think Rupes simply wants to be able to say he rescued the club and be able to leave, when ever that time comes, on a high, back on equal terms with his fellow club owners, who now are in fact cut from the same cloth as him, as in no real attachment with the club but instead looking to boost ego and reputation.

 

It’s a common human failing that we don’t know when to leave the stage

[Graffito]

I couldn't disagree more and the main reason why something will have to give.

JP IS lowes stratergy and lowes alone.

 

JP is Lowe's appointment not his strategy.

 

Wotte was linked to the job long before wilde came on the scene and JP was met and courted (And no doubt promised) before wilde and lowe had the big love in. The whole total football crap that the OS gushed over, the hype and spin were done (If nt written) under lowes guideance. It was and is a disaster waiting to happen and the veyr fact that lowe hasn't sacked him, is because he would lose so much face that his experiment has failed, he would have to walk himself.

 

Lowe has appointed manager's before and then sacked them. He could do the same here and claim the coach has failed but the strategy of playing youngsters will continue. The total football label was never more than hype and spin. Walking would be a bigger loss of face than replacing the coach

 

The only other option, which is the one he has gone for is to sweat it out and hope the boyscze come good.

 

Whatever the state of our club, this STILL is Southampton Football club and i am sure we could attract a number of decent managers.

 

I would like to think so but it would be one desperate b*stard given the fix we're in.

[John B]

Agreed but with a better knowledge of UK football, we may have found a player like Jason Scotland at Swansea say that wouldn't have cost a great deal. As for Euell, sadly no club is going to take him unless he's desperate for first XI action wherever he can get it. I wouldn't pay him £1500 a week. Whoever signed that deal and authorised it - surprise surprise Mr Wiseman's name popped up again - should be shot.

 

We got Brett Ormeroyd for 1.5 million

 

Win some lose some