Justin Fashanu

[hypochondriac]

Thank god we've completely solved the problem of racism in football in this, the year of our lord 2020.

What an odd response. I'm not sure anyone has ever suggested we have solved the problem of racism (actually that's an impossibility) but there's absolutely no doubt that things are markedly different from where they were a couple of decades ago.

[verlaine1979]

You get the 50,000 antiques collectors, dog trainers or train spotters in one place and tell me not one of them is racist.

 

Sure, sure, what about those dog trainers, eh? The crowd at Crufts has been notorious for the amount of racist cant spat from the stands over the years.

[Lighthouse]

Sure, sure, what about those dog trainers, eh? The crowd at Crufts has been notorious for the amount of racist cant spat from the stands over the years.

 

I must have missed 750,000 people attending Crufts every week for 3/4 of the year. Not that I can be arsed to debate it again but the percentage of people committing racist offences at English football is miniscule.

[hypochondriac]

Sure, sure, what about those dog trainers, eh? The crowd at Crufts has been notorious for the amount of racist cant spat from the stands over the years.

Where is your evidence- given the amount of people that attend football on a regular basis- that there are a much higher percentage of racists in a crowd than any other random sample of the UK population?

[verlaine1979]

Where is your evidence- given the amount of people that attend football on a regular basis- that there are a much higher percentage of racists in a crowd than any other random sample of the UK population?

 

Right, excuse me while I pop off and conduct a couple of years of field work in order to prove to you that a sport that has historically been a lightning rod for overt racism (and still is elsewhere in Europe) has, on average, more racist attendees than Crufts.

[Lighthouse]

Right, excuse me while I pop off and conduct a couple of years of field work in order to prove to you that a sport that has historically been a lightning rod for overt racism (and still is elsewhere in Europe) has, on average, more racist attendees than Crufts.

 

So you have no evidence that football is worse than anywhere else? It’s just an old cliché, so we’re going to stick with it.

 

As for the rest of Europe, you think the average Serbian or Ukrainian is open minded and tolerant, it’s just the football fans which are the trouble makers?

[hypochondriac]

Right, excuse me while I pop off and conduct a couple of years of field work in order to prove to you that a sport that has historically been a lightning rod for overt racism (and still is elsewhere in Europe) has, on average, more racist attendees than Crufts.

 

That's a long winded way of saying you're using intuition rather than any actual evidence. Historical crowds and crowds in Europe are of little relevance to UK crowds in 2020 and I didn't mention crufts.

[verlaine1979]

That's a long winded way of saying you're using intuition rather than any actual evidence. Historical crowds and crowds in Europe are of little relevance to UK crowds in 2020 and I didn't mention crufts.

 

Just a few days ago a BBC pundit was sacked for indulging in a bit of casual racist stereotyping about the character of black players. Then a week or two before that official figures were released showing that racist incidents at matches have increased by 50% year on year, and more than doubled since 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/30/football-related-racist-incidents-sharp-rise-police-kick-it-out

 

But I'm sure with your Pepe the frog avatar you're here to debate the problem of racism in good faith, right?

[hypochondriac]

Just a few days ago a BBC pundit was sacked for indulging in a bit of casual racist stereotyping about the character of black players. Then a week or two before that official figures were released showing that racist incidents at matches have increased by 50% year on year, and more than doubled since 2016. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/30/football-related-racist-incidents-sharp-rise-police-kick-it-out

 

But I'm sure with your Pepe the frog avatar you're here to debate the problem of racism in good faith, right?

So whilst previously you had no evidence, now you're using the example of one bbc pundit on the radio and a piece in the guardian that deals with reporting across the leagues. Assuming it's talking about the football league, 150 reported incidents is roughly two racist incidents per season. Obviously you wouldn't want any at all but it's hardly signs of an epidemic or some problem that is disproportionately larger in football than in other sections of society. There's no doubt that racism exists and any racism should be dealt with swiftly and harshly but there simply is no evidence to suggest that its a vastly larger problem certainly in top flight football in the UK than in other areas of society. It does however suit the agenda of certain individuals to portray it as a larger problem or to associate it with racist trouble in Italy or Eastern Europe.

 

No one anywhere has suggested that racism is not a thing, they are simply suggesting that there have been huge improvements even in the past decade or two which is undeniably the case. Surely the best and most effective way to tackle a problem like racism is to be realistic about the scale of the problem in the UK?

 

Edit: just seen its across both England and Wales and could also include non league so there will be clubs that will have reported no racist incidents for the entire season. According to Google there is 736 teams in this year's fa Cup. That means that in England alone there were 0.2 racist incidents that were reported per club last season. Thousands of matches, hundreds of thousands of fans and football being under the microscope it is and only 0.2 racist incidents worth reporting per club per season? I'd be willing to bet you'd get a comparable level of reportable racism from a random sample.

 

Let's be really generous and assume that 152 applies only to the Premier league teams. That means you'd have 7.6 reportable instances of racism per team per season or again 0.2 instances per game. If you were a season ticket holder then chances would be pretty good that you would not encounter any racist incidents at all at the vast majority of matches you attend. As already stated though, it appears that this figure of 152 is for all the leagues so it really is miniscule.

Edited 21 February, 2020 by hypochondriac

[verlaine1979]

So whilst previously you had no evidence, now you're using the example of one bbc pundit on the radio and a piece in the guardian that deals with reporting across the leagues. Assuming it's talking about the football league, 150 reported incidents is roughly two racist incidents per season. Obviously you wouldn't want any at all but it's hardly signs of an epidemic or some problem that is disproportionately larger in football than in other sections of society. There's no doubt that racism exists and any racism should be dealt with swiftly and harshly but there simply is no evidence to suggest that its a vastly larger problem certainly in top flight football in the UK than in other areas of society. It does however suit the agenda of certain individuals to portray it as a larger problem or to associate it with racist trouble in Italy or Eastern Europe.

 

No one anywhere has suggested that racism is not a thing, they are simply suggesting that there have been huge improvements even in the past decade or two which is undeniably the case.

 

Edit: just seen its across both England and Wales and could also include non league so there will be clubs that will have reported no racist incidents for the entire season. According to Google there is 736 teams in this year's fa Cup. That means that in England alone there were 0.2 racist incidents that were reported per club last season. Thousands of matches, hundreds of thousands of fans and football being under the microscope it is and only 0.2 racist incidents worth reporting per club per season? I'd be willing to bet you'd get a comparable level of reportable racism from a random sample.

 

Racism is a zero-tolerance issue in football these days, hence a lot of racist fans have learned to shut up. And yet the number of racist incidents is still increasing year on year.

[Turkish]

Racism is a zero-tolerance issue in football these days, hence a lot of racist fans have learned to shut up. And yet the number of racist incidents is still increasing year on year.

 

Or is it that due to zero tolerance more incidents are now reported and people arrested when previously they wouldn't have been?

[hypochondriac]

Racism is a zero-tolerance issue in football these days, hence a lot of racist fans have learned to shut up. And yet the number of racist incidents is still increasing year on year.

But the number is absolutely tiny even if it has increased. As already mentioned, it's publicised in the news so much at the moment that there's probably more of an awareness of it and an acknowledgement that it needs to be reported. The miniscule number of 152 does not suggest a systemic problem in UK football even if that's an increase on previous years.

[Lighthouse]

What are reported incidents though? Are these convictions, are they all at games, does it include social media, which leagues does it include? If I went to a Sunday League game and shouted, “f**k off, you useless *****, you’re sh*t!” At a black player and someone just assumes I have a problem with race and reports it, does that contribute to the statistic?

 

To put that number into context, Brighton had a turn out of just under 60,000 at the last election, slightly under an average home gate at Arsenal. 177 people voted for UKIP, who are all racist xenophobes according to many. So statistically Brighton has a much worse problem with right wing racism/xenophobia?

 

I know it’s a facetious argument but talking about the 0.01%’ers as representing an institutional problem doesn’t hold up either.

Edited 21 February, 2020 by Lighthouse

[egg]

Or is it that due to zero tolerance more incidents are now reported and people arrested when previously they wouldn't have been?

Exactly this. Society is less tolerant of racism thus more racists are dealt with. More action is not a sign of an increased problem.

[whelk]

It would take lots of courage for a player. To come out despite the right on attitude of many of ‘who cares’. Obviously most people are tolerant and wouldn’t care but as John Barnes points out regarding racism that football crowds have a lot of anger and behave at their worst.

 

A lot different for people in normal jobs to come out as no one cares and anyone that did would need to be civil.

[SFC Forever]

It makes me laugh when some on here start spouting examples of deteriorating moral standards by showing racism is on the rise. With so much easy access to news nowadays more people are aware of this racial overtone being something that can be used to gain attention. The funny thing is that of the many charged with racism nobody has come out with the number of charges that failed.

I am not racist but having been mugged twice when living in London by gangs of black males can understand why some people are. I lived in Brixton and on Angell Road behind the police station where at night you would not travel out on your own unless in a car. I also drove buses for Arriva and was assaulted whilst driving the bus which was half full.

My message I guess is that there are more good of each race than there are of bad.

I have many black friends and they are real friends. I was married twice to black women. these people bleed and suffer just like you and me.

[tajjuk]

It’s not a question of being sophisticated. It’s a very simple question that you seem to be getting very angry about. How is a gay person “coming out” normalising homosexuality?

 

That is a dumb question.

 

It is is normalising it because it literally shows normal people, often successful people, are also gay, and that is nothing to be ashamed off, which then inspires other people to be open about their sexuality and others to accept it.

[Turkish]

That is a dumb question.

 

It is is normalising it because it literally shows normal people, often successful people, are also gay, and that is nothing to be ashamed off, which then inspires other people to be open about their sexuality and others to accept it.

 

By making a point of saying you’re gay that ain’t normalising it. Do heterosexual people come out and say I’m successful and I’m heterosexual? No, so why would a gay person need to do it.

[Turkish]

That is a dumb question.

 

It is is normalising it because it literally shows normal people, often successful people, are also gay, and that is nothing to be ashamed off, which then inspires other people to be open about their sexuality and others to accept it.

 

In fact your actual point is exactly why it’s not normalising it. They are successful despite being gay, like you say “it’s nothing to to be ashamed of”. Coming out as gay to show that gay people can be successful to and it’s nothing to be Ashamed of is doing exactly the opposite of normalising it. And you called my comment dumb.

[verlaine1979]

Exactly this. Society is less tolerant of racism thus more racists are dealt with. More action is not a sign of an increased problem.

 

Oh, that's great news. Well done us. We should write a forum letter to Kick it Out letting them know that the problem has been solved, and that players like Raheem Sterling and Danny Rose have been worrying about nothing.

[egg]

Oh, that's great news. Well done us. We should write a forum letter to Kick it Out letting them know that the problem has been solved, and that players like Raheem Sterling and Danny Rose have been worrying about nothing.

 

Mate, you've been put in your place by others, don't drag me into your wish to persuade us that racism is on the rise.

[verlaine1979]

Mate, you've been put in your place by others, don't drag me into your wish to persuade us that racism is on the rise.

 

If the data says that racist incidents are increasing, and your response is that this isn't a problem, chances are YOU are the problem.

[egg]

If the data says that racist incidents are increasing, and your response is that this isn't a problem, chances are YOU are the problem.

 

As has been said above, there's a world of difference between what happens and what is reported and acted upon. You're not gonna persuade me that society is worse now than in the days of bananas being thrown at black players. In those days no action was taken. These days, incidents are fewer but action, quite rightly, is much more common when there is an incident.

 

And don't you dare suggest thay I am a problem in respect of racism. There's a line not to cross.

[verlaine1979]

As has been said above, there's a world of difference between what happens and what is reported and acted upon. You're not gonna persuade me that society is worse now than in the days of bananas being thrown at black players. In those days no action was taken. These days, incidents are fewer but action, quite rightly, is much more common when there is an incident.

 

And don't you dare suggest thay I am a problem in respect of racism. There's a line not to cross.

 

I've not said that racism is worse now than before. I've just pointed out to people saying that it has vanished from the terraces that, on the contrary, there's an increasing amount of it about these days, and a lot more is just submerged now because of more aggressive policing.

 

This country is still racist to the core, and you only have to look at the politics of the last couple of years to see that.

[egg]

I've not said that racism is worse now than before. I've just pointed out to people saying that it has vanished from the terraces that, on the contrary, there's an increasing amount of it about these days, and a lot more is just submerged now because of more aggressive policing.

 

This country is still racist to the core, and you only have to look at the politics of the last couple of years to see that.

We'll agree to differ. I see and hear minimal racism in football and life generally. It's a world away from where it was. Ditto homophbia.

[Lighthouse]

I've not said that racism is worse now than before. I've just pointed out to people saying that it has vanished from the terraces that, on the contrary, there's an increasing amount of it about these days, and a lot more is just submerged now because of more aggressive policing.

 

This country is still racist to the core, and you only have to look at the politics of the last couple of years to see that.

 

Wow, you’ve lead a sheltered life and have obviously never been to Russia, Ukraine, any of the Balkans, Italy, pretty much all of the Middle East, the USA, France, Japan/China, South Africa... I’m not even going into the rest of the continent and all the genocides they’ve had.

 

If you want a Utopia, I’m afraid you’re the wrong species living on the wrong planet. If it’s a choice between occasionally having some kn*bber in a crowd shout, "oi puff!" Or living a lonely, self-loathing lie for your whole career, I know which I’d pick.

[verlaine1979]

Wow, you’ve lead a sheltered life and have obviously never been to Russia, Ukraine, any of the Balkans, Italy, pretty much all of the Middle East, the USA, France, Japan/China, South Africa... I’m not even going into the rest of the continent and all the genocides they’ve had.

 

If you want a Utopia, I’m afraid you’re the wrong species living on the wrong planet. If it’s a choice between occasionally having some kn*bber in a crowd shout, "oi puff!" Or living a lonely, self-loathing lie for your whole career, I know which I’d pick.

 

The fact that other countries are worse doesn't exonerate us. Nor does it sound like your simple binary actually reflects the choice that gay players feel lies ahead of them. Otherwise we'd probably have had more than one player come out in the almost 20 years the PL has been operating.

[hypochondriac]

"racist to the core." Blimey, I'd hate to inhabit this world that some of these loons live in. Imagine genuinely believing that about Britain in 2020. I almost feel sorry for you.

[Hayling Saint]

Wow, you’ve lead a sheltered life and have obviously never been to Russia, Ukraine, any of the Balkans, Italy, pretty much all of the Middle East, the USA, France, Japan/China, South Africa... I’m not even going into the rest of the continent and all the genocides they’ve had.

 

If you want a Utopia, I’m afraid you’re the wrong species living on the wrong planet. If it’s a choice between occasionally having some kn*bber in a crowd shout, "oi puff!" Or living a lonely, self-loathing lie for your whole career, I know which I’d pick.

 

Very well put!