How we fans stop VAR forever?

[Nordic Saint]

Deserves its own chant IMO.

 

"I love VAR!

You scored another goal but it's offside baby!"

 

The point is (and the lost points were) we were robbed so many times by unfair decisions from officials and, no, they didn't even out over the pre-VAR seasons. Although it's good that has ended, you can't help wondering what might have been.

[derry]

Leave VAR as it is. The more that any arbitrary margins move away from the technology the more we are back to subjective refereeing decisions and the more decisions will be given to big sides especially at home. Now the ball touches the attackers hand, fact no goal. Change it to referees decision and we're back to opinion. Offsides, defenders are getting it right, decisions are correct, it's time for the forwards to pay attention and time their runs better.

[tajjuk]

More correct decision are being made which IMO is a good thing.

 

I'd say probably the offside thing will be looked at and changed, and maybe the handball rules will change as well but neither of those are VAR related really.

 

And I reckon refs need to more look at the monitors themselves.

 

But generally I think if more correct decisions are being made then that is the most important thing and it shows for us as over the last few seasons we have had some real stinkers of bad decisions against us and now we are actually getting fair decisions.

[benjii]

It keeps on ensuring that results are fair. How many points would we have lost this season through unfair decisions without it?

 

No way of knowing. I would like to think the lino would have flagged their equalizer, without VAR, as it was pretty obviously offside. Same for the “goal” Brighton had disallowed against us.

[whelk]

I think they should declare the millimetre difference for clarity. Long looked onside to me when they showed the lines.

Still fcking hate it

[Dark Munster]

Why would it matter if he scores with his head, bum, knee or chest? As long as his feet are onside when the pass is made. The idea is to make the rule as simple as possible to judge, and minimize errors. It's not a drastic change, and keeps the spirit of the rule alive.

Long's offside today that negated the penalty is a perfect example why using feet only makes it clearer. It looked like the defender's arm was in line with his foot. Certainly not a clear offside, and very hard to judge one way or the other. If feet only had been used he was clearly offside and no-one could complain.

 

Dropping perpendicular lines down trailing body parts to determine who's in front in razor thin margins, as they did today, is just bollocks. As they say, Keep It Simple Stupid.

[sfc4prem]

I would've loved VAR at Wembley a few years ago!

[SaintBobby]

Long's offside today that negated the penalty is a perfect example why using feet only makes it clearer. It looked like the defender's arm was in line with his foot. Certainly not a clear offside, and very hard to judge one way or the other. If feet only had been used he was clearly offside and no-one could complain.

 

Dropping perpendicular lines down trailing body parts to determine who's in front in razor thin margins, as they did today, is just bollocks. As they say, Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

I may be vociferosuly agreeing here, but isn't it comparing body parts that both the defender and attacker can "use"? eg an armpit v a a buttock...both can touch the ball legally, so if your armpit is 1mm beyond the defender's butt cheek, you're technically offside.

 

What's happening is that VAR is exposing some of the weird laws of the game, I think. (it has other problems too)

Edited 12 January, 2020 by SaintBobby

[OttawaSaint]

When they drew the lines today the armpit of the defender was closer to the goal than Long’s toe. Onside I thought but then they redrew a whole bunch of lines abs said Offside. Still not sure wtf happened.

[Ultimatt]

I may be vociferosuly agreeing here, but isn't it comparing body parts that both the defender and attacker can "use"? eg an armpit v a a buttock...both can touch the ball legally, so if your armpit is 1mm beyond the defender's butt cheek, you're technically offside.

 

What's happening is that VAR is exposing some of the weird laws of the game, I think. (it has other problems too)

 

I think the issue with all these close calls, not just in our game but throughout the league, is that strikers are leaning forward as they hit the line, while defenders are sometimes going the other way to create an offside trap. So the defender could have more of his body behind the attacker but the strikers leaning shoulder is getting him called offside. I wouldn't be opposed to them changing the rule to only measure feet and not the thighs/torso/head etc. It's not like the ball instantly arrives so the feet are the critical part to move into an offside position.

Edited 12 January, 2020 by Ultimatt

[igsey]

Perhaps the solution for the offside debate would be requiring players' shirts to be different colours for parts that do count for offside to those that don't? So sleeves have to be different colours or whatever, would make drawing the lines easier.

[Saint Troy]

I think the issue with all these close calls, not just in our game but throughout the league, is that strikers are leaning forward as they hit the line, while defenders are sometimes going the other way to create an offside trap. So the defender could have more of his body behind the attacker but the strikers leaning shoulder is getting him called offside. I wouldn't be opposed to them changing the rule to only measure feet and not the thighs/torso/head etc. It's not like the ball instantly arrives so the feet are the critical part to move into an offside position.

 

I guess the issue is creating a rule that suits var and non var games. This could cause the same problems the other way round almost in games without var due to the leaving you talk about. Agree something along those lines has to be done but not sure what’s best.

[wadesmith]

I think the issue with all these close calls, not just in our game but throughout the league, is that strikers are leaning forward as they hit the line, while defenders are sometimes going the other way to create an offside trap. So the defender could have more of his body behind the attacker but the strikers leaning shoulder is getting him called offside. I wouldn't be opposed to them changing the rule to only measure feet and not the thighs/torso/head etc. It's not like the ball instantly arrives so the feet are the critical part to move into an offside position.

 

But surely you've just described what defenders are supposed to do? "Defenders are going the other way to create an offside trap' That is what an offside trap is...making sure part of the forward is in front of you.

[Saint86]

I have to say, VAR did us some massive favours against Leicester. Those linesman didn't flag a thing, thank god we had a video assistant referee to save the game for saints.

[Dark Munster]

I may be vociferosuly agreeing here, but isn't it comparing body parts that both the defender and attacker can "use"? eg an armpit v a a buttock...both can touch the ball legally, so if your armpit is 1mm beyond the defender's butt cheek, you're technically offside.

 

What's happening is that VAR is exposing some of the weird laws of the game, I think. (it has other problems too)

And the current rule is fine if it were easy to implement in close calls. As we've seen, it isn't. We're suggesting a minor change in the rule.

 

Ice hockey has an "offside" rule which is of course different from football's, but has similarities. Roughly speaking a player in hockey is offside if he enters the attacking zone before the puck. The way they define this is he's offside if both his skates enter the zone before the puck. Note they determine this only with his skates, not any other part of the body. And you can't score goals in hockey by kicking the puck into the net! So using feet only for offside in football isn't unreasonable. The difference between being offside/onside with the current rule and such a new one would only be inches.

[Ultimatt]

But surely you've just described what defenders are supposed to do? "Defenders are going the other way to create an offside trap' That is what an offside trap is...making sure part of the forward is in front of you.

 

Which wouldn't change if it was feet only. It's silly that because an attackers leaning forward with their shoulders that they're offside. What's that shoulder actually going to do? It's the feet that count in getting you onto the ball when it arrives.

[John Boy Saint]

The more I have seen that Long was deemed offside, the more I can’t help but notice that in the deciding frame the decision was made on the ball through to him has already been kicked and en- route to him, as it’s clearly blurred.

Just as an aside (I won’t bother trying to spell his name) but the Leicester player who felled Long picked up a yellow I presume for the offence, so if the offence was rubbed out due to VAR is his yellow automatically rubbed out too?

[Whitey Grandad]

The more I have seen that Long was deemed offside, the more I can’t help but notice that in the deciding frame the decision was made on the ball through to him has already been kicked and en- route to him, as it’s clearly blurred.

Just as an aside (I won’t bother trying to spell his name) but the Leicester player who felled Long picked up a yellow I presume for the offence, so if the offence was rubbed out due to VAR is his yellow automatically rubbed out too?

 

I wondered about that yellow too. Wasn’t it our Claus who got a red card at Villa (?) for bringing down a player en route to goal. A player who was then found to be offside. The red card still stood, presumably because the ‘intent’ was there, yet we still lost a player.

 

Çağlar Söyüncü Is the name on the tip of your tongue

[Sheaf Saint]

I wondered about that yellow too. Wasn’t it our Claus who got a red card at Villa (?) for bringing down a player en route to goal. A player who was then found to be offside. The red card still stood, presumably because the ‘intent’ was there, yet we still lost a player.

 

Çağlar Söyüncü Is the name on the tip of your tongue

 

Yeah his yellow card was immediately rescinded following the VAR decision.

[benjii]

Which wouldn't change if it was feet only. It's silly that because an attackers leaning forward with their shoulders that they're offside. What's that shoulder actually going to do? It's the feet that count in getting you onto the ball when it arrives.

 

This. Look at feet. 30 second countdown from the start of the forensic replay. If you can't draw a line that proves offside in that time then it is deemed onside.

[Sheaf Saint]

This. Look at feet. 30 second countdown from the start of the forensic replay. If you can't draw a line that proves offside in that time then it is deemed onside.

 

Totally agree with this. Would remove a lot of the uncertainty and prevent the ridiculous delays we have seen with them trying to work out if someone's elbow is 2mm ahead of a defender's toe. It needs to be more clear cut than it currently is.

 

The technology is fine - it's the rules that need tweaking for it to work properly.

[sadoldgit]

Long live VAR. It has become our 12th man.

[derry]

We should be supporting VAR as it is. Basically our defenders are setting up for opponents to break their offside line by holding the line and not retreating with the attackers. It's up to the attackers now to adjust for VAR and not attempt to break the line trying to gain a miniscule advantage. If they stay onside until the ball is kicked no offside. If they are caught out as they will be any goal is disallowed. It's not VAR it's attackers not adjusting for the scrutiny whilst defenders are being drilled in it.

[hypochondriac]

We should be supporting VAR as it is. Basically our defenders are setting up for opponents to break their offside line by holding the line and not retreating with the attackers. It's up to the attackers now to adjust for VAR and not attempt to break the line trying to gain a miniscule advantage. If they stay onside until the ball is kicked no offside. If they are caught out as they will be any goal is disallowed. It's not VAR it's attackers not adjusting for the scrutiny whilst defenders are being drilled in it.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same thing, the consensus amongst actual fans and people within the game is that it's not working as it is and they will most likely change it at the end of the season thank goodness.

[Charlie Wayman]

VAR is fine as long as the referee makes the final call on the pitch, not a "fifth" official sitting in front of a screen.

 

The offside rule needs to be reviewed and if necessary changed. Personally I'm all for having no offside. Tactics would soon adapt.

[derry]

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same thing, the consensus amongst actual fans and people within the game is that it's not working as it is and they will most likely change it at the end of the season thank goodness.[/quote

 

So you keep saying. It worked for us at Leicester and at least half a dozen times this season, Most managers are now accepting it and planning for it. Only the managers that aren't yet adjusting and players getting caught out are complaining. It's working for me, I don't care how long it takes as long as a referee's possible bad decision that would disadvantage my team is overturned. The reverse if a decision goes against my team however tight but correct is given I'll go along with because it's a fair decision.

 

The longer the season goes on and the more decisions are proved correct, the less there will be a consensus from the PL clubs to change anything. I get that you're a dedicated uber fan and go with the emotion but in the end I think cooler wiser heads will prevail.

[hypochondriac]

I think people who like football will prevail.

[aintforever]

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same thing, the consensus amongst actual fans and people within the game is that it's not working as it is and they will most likely change it at the end of the season thank goodness.

 

Football fans will moan about anything, the fans were the ones calling for VAR this time last season.

 

It just needs the offside analysis and the handball rules tweaking and it's fine.

[Lighthouse]

Football fans will moan about anything, the fans were the ones calling for VAR this time last season.

 

It just needs the offside analysis and the handball rules tweaking and it's fine.

 

Offside - Yes. Handball - No

 

The handball rule is fine, people just need to get used to it. If we had conceded the injury time equaliser which West Ham had disallowed, we'd all be fuming about the handball in the build up.

[Saint Pete]

VAR is fine as long as the referee makes the final call on the pitch, not a "fifth" official sitting in front of a screen.

 

I know this seems to be a popular view in the game from managers and players but I disagree to be honest. I think if the ref has to trot over every time and review what the VAR has already looked at, it's just going to make the delays from VAR much worse. Also, I can't help feeling that managers and players, especially of the top teams, want this so they can try to "influence" the decision making process more (like they did before VAR)!

 

If anything maybe refs should be able to communicate more with the VAR about for example the impact of pitch conditions on a red card decision (eg Bertrand Vs Leicester). But in general I prefer the idea of VAR making rulings in a more independent way from being influenced.

 

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[wadesmith]

40 years i’ve Watched Saints. Our fans correctly used to moan that we never got the decisions in our favour against the big clubs. Finally we have a season where we appear to have adapted to VAR, and the big clubs are getting found out.....& Our fans are still moaning. Beleive me, remember this thread when they bring in the ‘margin of error rule’ & every ‘margin of error ruling goes in favour of Liverpool, Man Utd Man City etc. & not us. Just remember this thread!

[Whitey Grandad]

40 years i’ve Watched Saints. Our fans correctly used to moan that we never got the decisions in our favour against the big clubs. Finally we have a season where we appear to have adapted to VAR, and the big clubs are getting found out.....& Our fans are still moaning. Beleive me, remember this thread when they bring in the ‘margin of error rule’ & every ‘margin of error ruling goes in favour of Liverpool, Man Utd Man City etc. & not us. Just remember this thread!

 

I dunno. Liverpool seem to be benefiting from anything marginal.

[wadesmith]

I dunno. Liverpool seem to be benefiting from anything marginal.

 

I was waiting for that. But you know what I mean.

[Killers Knee]

Leave VAR as it is. The more that any arbitrary margins move away from the technology the more we are back to subjective refereeing decisions and the more decisions will be given to big sides especially at home. Now the ball touches the attackers hand, fact no goal. Change it to referees decision and we're back to opinion. Offsides, defenders are getting it right, decisions are correct, it's time for the forwards to pay attention and time their runs better.

 

This 100%

[davefoggy]

Oh just get rid now. Wolves should be one up

[Smirking_Saint]

The way I see VAR is that for years and years and years we moaned about getting decision correct. As Saints fans we all personally bemoaned the big 6's grasp on the majority of decisions.

 

We have a system now that provides us with that, but we are moaning about that now ?

 

The offside stuff needs to be worked on but ultimately its getting decisions correct I think, more so than a linesman with the naked eye.

 

IMO it needs to continue, but does need tweaking. There needs to be better communication between the team and the fan, and I do think they miss a trick by not letting the ref verify it on the screen, at worst it adds a bit of legitimacy to the calls.

 

Perhaps we need to just see all calls checked on the monitor, no minute checking by an offside super computer, but a verification by the on field referee that can see a couple of angles and lasting all of 1 or 2 minutes ?

[Mallagroth]

I think it no coincidence that the first year of full VAR and the league table looks the way it does right now. It doesn’t take many ‘wrong’ decisions or bias to put the classic rich teams top in a league that is decided by small margins in quality.

 

Now for my tin foil hat opinion: there is absolutely no way in hell the people that run this league will risk seeing teams like wolves Sheffield Utd, or even Leicester continuing to compete for spots reserved for the money makers. Those who want football back to the way it was will get their wish and normal service will resume next season with refs getting to decide whether to use VAR or not and it will intentionally be neglected to be used at vital Moments like penalty decisions that could swing the game away from the big 6. You know it as well really and the media campaign against VAR is driven to make everyone want that to happen. That’s why there is not many positive articles about how so much previous injustice about the game has been removed and rather how it ‘slows’ the game (at least now those extra minutes at the end of a game are actually believable they were often getting added for no reason anyway previously)

[Cartman]

I think it no coincidence that the first year of full VAR and the league table looks the way it does right now. It doesn’t take many ‘wrong’ decisions or bias to put the classic rich teams top in a league that is decided by small margins in quality.

 

Now for my tin foil hat opinion: there is absolutely no way in hell the people that run this league will risk seeing teams like wolves Sheffield Utd, or even Leicester continuing to compete for spots reserved for the money makers. Those who want football back to the way it was will get their wish and normal service will resume next season with refs getting to decide whether to use VAR or not and it will intentionally be neglected to be used at vital Moments like penalty decisions that could swing the game away from the big 6. You know it as well really and the media campaign against VAR is driven to make everyone want that to happen. That’s why there is not many positive articles about how so much previous injustice about the game has been removed and rather how it ‘slows’ the game (at least now those extra minutes at the end of a game are actually believable they were often getting added for no reason anyway previously)

 

What do you mean no reason? They were added to give the rich clubs time to manufacture a goal that was fully deserved by virtue of their wonderful magnificence. A perfectly legit reason. This abortion of a playing field leveling system called VAR (I throw up a little in my mouth whenever I say it) is undermining the hard work the authorities put in to ensure our footballing royalty are protected from disrespectful upstarts that don't know their place.

[Kingsland Codger]

The way I see VAR is that for years and years and years we moaned about getting decision correct. As Saints fans we all personally bemoaned the big 6's grasp on the majority of decisions.

 

We have a system now that provides us with that, but we are moaning about that now ?

 

The offside stuff needs to be worked on but ultimately its getting decisions correct I think, more so than a linesman with the naked eye.

 

IMO it needs to continue, but does need tweaking. There needs to be better communication between the team and the fan, and I do think they miss a trick by not letting the ref verify it on the screen, at worst it adds a bit of legitimacy to the calls.

 

Perhaps we need to just see all calls checked on the monitor, no minute checking by an offside super computer, but a verification by the on field referee that can see a couple of angles and lasting all of 1 or 2 minutes ?

 

And maybe players, managers, pundits and us fans should consider a change of culture whereby we no longer moan about decisions we don’t like. If a tight call has been checked by a qualified official with several different angles of view taken into account we should all simply accept the decisions made. Other sports seem to manage fairly well.

[derry]

And maybe players, managers, pundits and us fans should consider a change of culture whereby we no longer moan about decisions we don’t like. If a tight call has been checked by a qualified official with several different angles of view taken into account we should all simply accept the decisions made. Other sports seem to manage fairly well.

 

This is the problem. Players, Ex players/pundits, Managers, Officials have been indoctrinated with the unwillingness of top managers, sides etc to accept correct decisions and constantly bleating aided and abetted by the media. I personally like the discipline in Rugby. We need a season of draconian punishments and long suspensions for dissent and questioning decisions to be stamped out. Never mind VAR, how much time is used up by players arguing with officials. The pillocks even wear Respect labels on their shirts. The game in a lot of senses is a disgrace if one adds obvious cheating and feigning injury to the above. As it stands with VAR the Doucoure goal for Watford wouln't have happened and Austins disallowed goal the following season would have counted. Both bad decisions cost us a win.

[igsey]

I hope VAR doesn't get canned after only one season; it's by-and-large made the right decisions based on the rules that it is being used for. Yes, millimetre offside decisions are stupid but the laws of the game are black and white, VAR is just helping to implement that.

 

We've seen a large reduction in the amount of diving and play acting, no offside goals allowed (remember last season when Liverpool had 6 offside goals allowed?), and more proportional punishment for bad tackles. It's not perfect, but nobody was expecting it to be in its first iteration.

 

VAR is good. The rules (offside and handball in particular) need changing.

[Batman]

strange. Spurs have a shot cleared off the line, with goal line tech suggesting it was about the width of a blade of grass from being a goal.

 

not a peep about it really. It is accepted

[Saint_clark]

strange. Spurs have a shot cleared off the line, with goal line tech suggesting it was about the width of a blade of grass from being a goal.

 

not a peep about it really. It is accepted

Because that tech is clear cut and non disputable.

 

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[Batman]

Because that tech is clear cut and non disputable.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

says who. margin of error not apply here?

[Trout-Tickler]

says who. margin of error not apply here?

 

Hawk-eye seem pretty confident https://platform-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/test/HawkEye/document/2015/08/10/6546e487-0c72-45f9-b4f2-3d45f649ae1f/Hawk-Eye's_GLT_How_it_Works.pdf.

[JRM]

Hate it, pleased that at most games each weekend you can hear F*CK VAR chanted loudly.

[Whitey Grandad]

says who. margin of error not apply here?

 

Of course it’s not accurate and there is a margin of error but all you have is a machine deciding instead of a human.

[The Kraken]

Of course it’s not accurate and there is a margin of error but all you have is a machine deciding instead of a human.

Which, for offside and GLT, is obviously much more accurate.

[Whitey Grandad]

Which, for offside and GLT, is obviously much more accurate.

 

Not for offside, I would argue.

[The Kraken]

Not for offside, I would argue.

VAR is not perfect by any stretch for offisde but it is obviously more accurate than the human eye.