How we fans stop VAR forever?

[rallyboy]

I have few issues with VAR.

I'd just like some laws of the game tidied up, and most importantly, competent independent people operating the system.

Asking a ref to judge whether his mate has made a mistake, is a ridiculous concept.

It needs to be sold to refs as an assistant, not a jury.

See rugby.

[Whitey Grandad]

I have few issues with VAR.

I'd just like some laws of the game tidied up, and most importantly, competent independent people operating the system.

Asking a ref to judge whether his mate has made a mistake, is a ridiculous concept.

It needs to be sold to refs as an assistant, not a jury.

See rugby.

 

At the moment it’s overruling and therefore undermining the official in charge of the game. Yesterday’s downgrading of a red card for a West Ham is a prime example. That tackle was far worse than Bertrand’s against Leicester yet his wasn’t even given as a foul at the time.

[davefoggy]

Just think back, how many great goals & magic moments would have been taken away from us if VAR had been around? Get rid now

[Batman]

Just think back, how many great goals & magic moments would have been taken away from us if VAR had been around? Get rid now

 

We may have won the league cup a couple of years ago

[Whitey Grandad]

We may have won the league cup a couple of years ago

 

That’s a fallacy. We might have scored a bit earlier but the rest of the game would have been different.

[Dark Munster]

That’s a fallacy. We might have scored a bit earlier but the rest of the game would have been different.

True. And we may have won!

[SaintBobby]

Can you change the VAR rules without changing the laws of the game?

 

For example, could we at least say that those looking at VAR should only look at a player's feet not whether his head or armpit is offside?

 

Might it be a good idea to change the laws anyway - only your feet count for offside, not whether you're leaning forward and your knee is 5mm offside?

 

I know this doesn't solve all of the VAR frustration, but it might solve some of it.

[IFHP]

Can you change the VAR rules without changing the laws of the game?

 

For example, could we at least say that those looking at VAR should only look at a player's feet not whether his head or armpit is offside?

 

Might it be a good idea to change the laws anyway - only your feet count for offside, not whether you're leaning forward and your knee is 5mm offside?

 

I know this doesn't solve all of the VAR frustration, but it might solve some of it.

 

I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

 

Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.

[doddisalegend]

I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

 

Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.

Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

 

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[Nordic Saint]

Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

 

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Absolutely. If the pre-VAR incorrect decisions had been evenly distributed, then they would have been tolerable but they weren't. They put us at a disadvantage, which has now been removed. It's the same for everyone now.

[IFHP]

Personally I want the correct decisions. I don't want my team losing valuable points becuase a ref or linesmen misses something. The delays are a little annoying (as is celebrating a goal that doesn't stand) but it's no worse than a delay for an injury and I'm willing to accept it if it means the game isn't decided by a goal that shouldn't have been.

 

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So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

 

It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .

[Nordic Saint]

So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

 

It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .

 

The human factors determining the results should be the players not the referees.

[Whitey Grandad]

The human factors determining the results should be the players not the referees.

 

VAR decisions are still made by referees.

[doddisalegend]

So what you are saying is you want VAR to ref the game and take the human factors out. ?

 

It’s not what I want but there you go each to their own .

 

To a point yes if you can have a clear cut rule that can be a yes or no answer like balls going out of play, offside, the ball crossing the goal line then why not use technology to get those results right? fouls are always going to require a human factor to referee, as is deliberate handball and stopping for injuries. We have VAR because the human factor kept ****ing it up.

[IFHP]

VAR decisions are still made by referees.

 

Exactly that. Its not like goal line technology which is a fact, is instant and a good thing for the game. Nobody has ever had a debate as to if the ball just crossed the line or not.

[Lord Duckhunter]

To a point yes if you can have a clear cut rule that can be a yes or no answer like balls going out of play, offside, the ball crossing the goal line then why not use technology to get those results right? fouls are always going to require a human factor to referee, as is deliberate handball and stopping for injuries. We have VAR because the human factor kept ****ing it up.

 

This is my argument. If you’re going to have VAR making line decisions, then it needs to make every line decision. Cricket has appeals & Umpire’s call, but line decisions are based on fact , with no margin of error. It would be bizarre for cricket to have no balls as umpire call, yet run outs as a binary choice. Yet people appear to want offside subject to a margin of error, or Lino call, but whether it’s a pen or free kick as a factual decision.

 

 

 

 

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[VectisSaint]

Absolutely. If the pre-VAR incorrect decisions had been evenly distributed, then they would have been tolerable but they weren't. They put us at a disadvantage, which has now been removed. It's the same for everyone now.

If only this were true. It's not the same for everyone. Each match is handled differently, and clearly some big teams and Liverpool are getting different treatment. Decision as to whether VAR should check a decision is still not consistent. VAR should be a good thing but the implementation is at fault and the offside law should be changed.

[Nordic Saint]

I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.

[Barry the Badger]

I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.

 

I like how you're saying the linesman can't be accurate because they aren't exactly in line with play, whilst simultaneously claiming to be an authority on the subject from your fixed position in the stands which happens to be vaguely in line with where offsides sometimes occur.

[Trout-Tickler]

Yet people appear to want offside subject to a margin of error, or Lino call, but whether it’s a pen or free kick as a factual decision.

 

You can only have no margin of error with respect to offside if the system itself has no margin of error. Given the frame rate of the feed from which the lines are drawn and identifying when the through ball was played in relation to the attackers position there must be some degree of error, I simply don't believe there isn't.

[Whitey Grandad]

I sit in line with where a lot of offsides occur. Most assistant referees are 5 to 10 yards behind play when they make offside decisions so they have to make educated guesses. Typically they get about 70% right. The 30% they get wrong largely pass unnoticed, except by those fans sitting in line, as they don't affect goals scored. Sian Massey-Ellis, who moves up and down the line very quickly and never loses concentration, is one of the few who gets about 90% right. I've also noticed assistant referees raise their flag in reaction to shouts from the crowd. External factors, such as a baying crowd and the possibility of getting post-match criticism from a high profile manager of a big club splashed across the media inevitably have an influence. At St Mary's, the away fans behind the goal at the Northam end ensure that more than 50% of close decisions at that end, including free-kicks, penalties, offsides and red cards, go the way of the away team. There is at least one penalty given against us every season at that end which wouldn't have been given if the incident had occurred at the Chapel end. These are all human errors that VAR is helping to eliminate.

No, the Assistants are much more accurate that that. Their decisions may not agree with yours, but they are correct.

 

They don’t have to keep up with play, they position themselves in line with the second to last defender.

[badgerx16]

Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.

[Shroppie]

Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.

It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

 

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[doddisalegend]

Milivojevic was sent off after the ref went to look at the pitch side monitor. Would that have happened if it was in a Premier League game ? Hasn't up to now.

 

Don't know about pitch side monitor but Bertrand was sent of after a retrospective look by VAR in the Leicester game. First time I can remember us conceding a goal and getting a man sent off (that didn't involve a penalty) at the same time.

[Whitey Grandad]

It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

 

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I agree. For such matters the onfield referee should have the final decision.

[Shroppie]

Don't know about pitch side monitor but Bertrand was sent of after a retrospective look by VAR in the Leicester game. First time I can remember us conceding a goal and getting a man sent off (that didn't involve a penalty) at the same time.

I think this was the worst VAR decision so far. The ref took no part in the decision. Just the VAR ref deciding to get involved and his view was taken without question.

 

I was there and would argue there was no violent intent in the tackle.

 

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[Batman]

It can, and should happen. This is the first ref sensible and brave enough to do it.

 

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it isnt the first time, happened two years ago and the FA cup has different rules surrounding VAR (apparently)

[Whitey Grandad]

it isnt the first time, happened two years ago and the FA cup has different rules surrounding VAR (apparently)

 

I’ve just had a quick look. Apparently an on field review (OFR) by the referee going to the monitor can only happen on the advice of the remote VAR. That doesn’t seem right to me.

[Shroppie]

I’ve just had a quick look. Apparently an on field review (OFR) by the referee going to the monitor can only happen on the advice of the remote VAR. That doesn’t seem right to me.

That's just ridiculous.

 

 

In effect, this means the VAR ref can overrule the ref on a whim, or (as is happening) incidents are ignored.

 

We have to get back to the on-field ref always having the final decision. There's so much wrong with the way it's currently bring used.

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Edited 5 January, 2020 by Shroppie

[SaintBobby]

I think the powers that be need to say what VAR is acually for, it was my understanding that it would only be used for clear and obvious mistakes by the ref and linesmen. To me the VAR ref saying after 2 mins and various angles and lines drawn on the screen that a players toe was offside by 2mm or so is not clear and you would not expect a ref or linsman to see it in normal game time - if the VAR team cant decide after 15seconds then the original decision should stand. This should be for evey decision not just off sides.

 

Its seems to me, especially for off sides that VAR is actually refering the game and that is something i thought it was not brought in to do.

 

Yeah, agree with this. If the technological margin of error is, say, 1cm then it's ridiculous to say that an image showing a player 0.5cm offside is "clear and obvious".

[Lord Duckhunter]

Fifa want the on field referee to use the pitch side monitor, and therefore the on field ref will be the decision maker. For some reason the premier league or the PGMO (don’t know which) don’t want to follow that protocol, and VAR makes the calls for all Premier league games. The FA are obviously following the protocol for their cup competition.

 

 

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[aintforever]

That's just ridiculous.

 

 

In effect, this means the VAR ref can overrule the ref on a whim, or (as is happening) incidents are ignored.

 

We have to get back to the on-field ref always having the final decision. There's so much wrong with the way it's currently bring used.

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I prefer the VAR bloke making the decision - he’s the one with the better view, slow mo replays etc. Plus he’s going to be less influenced by screaming fans and moaning players.

 

The only issue I have with VAR is the forensic offside analysis, streamline that and it’s fine IMO.

[Picard]

.

 

Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.

[doddisalegend]

Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.

 

Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.

[Batman]

Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.

 

Exactly. We have not seen a single howler. Just fans getting up tight that marginal offsides are actually given.

 

[Turkish]

I won’t be satisfied until they are using analytics to predict offsides before they happen. It’s the only way to speed up the game by giving a free kick for offside before the offence is committed based on the data available.

[Whitey Grandad]

Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.

 

They aren’t behind play.

[Trout-Tickler]

Exactly. We have not seen a single howler. Just fans getting up tight that marginal offsides are actually given.

 

Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?

[Wurzel]

Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.

 

Whilst I agree with the margin for error argument, I can't understand why that diagram uses Frame A "Passer has not touched the ball" and Frame B "Passer has already touched the ball."

Frame B shows ball still in contact with passer's boot. Surely no pass has been made until it has left his boot, so yet another Frame C is required for accurate comparison.

[rallyboy]

There was a reminder of the alternative at the weekend when some of the games were played without using the offside rule at all.

Norwich scored two with clear offsides - it was like a playground kick-about, jumpers as goalposts.

Or have officials got used to someone else making the decision and telling them?

[doddisalegend]

They aren’t behind play.

So how come this miss so many calls if linesmen where getting it right VAR wouldn't even be a thing.

 

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[Batman]

Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?

 

If the player is offside, he is offside

 

What has VAR got very wrong so far?

[Batman]

There was a reminder of the alternative at the weekend when some of the games were played without using the offside rule at all.

Norwich scored two with clear offsides - it was like a playground kick-about, jumpers as goalposts.

Or have officials got used to someone else making the decision and telling them?

 

No, people seem to have forgotten how many howlers we used to see...let alone generally poor decisions

[badgerx16]

If the player is offside, he is offside

I think there was a point in the Liv-Eve match last night when a Liverpool player hit the ball against an Everton defender and it went out for a corner. TV replays suggested that the Liverpool player had been in an offside position when receiving the ball, and wasn't flagged, and VAR wasn't interested as it wasn't a goal. If Liverpool had scored from the corner it would have stood.

I know that this sort of thing always used to happen before VAR, but surely this is the sort of thing it should be correcting, especially as linos seem to be relying on it.

[Trout-Tickler]

If the player is offside, he is offside

 

What has VAR got very wrong so far?

 

But that's the whole point of the scenario I described above, the system as it stands simply doesn't have the accuracy to rule that he was 100% offside.

 

You seem to think that I want VAR to be scrapped, I don't. I just find it absolutely bizarre that people think the system doesn't operate without a margin of error. As I've said before on this thread, there's always some degree of standard deviation with any scientific measurement. Look at scales in the kitchen, when you weigh out 100g if pasta it doesn't weigh exactly 100g, it weighs 100g plus or minus the standard deviation/error of the scales in question. The same is undoubtedly true of VAR. People quite rightly want certainty from VAR regarding offside but you can only get that if the system is accurate enough. Is the tolerance of the system 1 millimetre, 1 centimetre or 1 nanometre? I've never seen anything published with regards to the systems tolerance to what distance it can accurately measure.

[Charlie Wayman]

One answer is to scrap off-sides and penalty kicks

[Charlie Wayman]

Worth reposting as some people still think VAR is accurate for offside. Here the margin of error is estimated to be 13cm.

 

OK so use a faster frame rate...

[Charlie Wayman]

Still more accurate than some bloke with, a flag, 15 feet behind play.

 

Yep!

[aintforever]

Let's run a scenario, VAR checks a goal for a possible offside. The system draws the lines and shows that the attackers right foot is 1.5mm offside. However, through a combination of the frame rate of the feed from which the lines were drawn, identifying exactly when the through ball was played, and the continued movement of the attacking player between frames, the analysis has an error of plus/minus 2.0mm. Consequently, the player could be 3.5mm offside or 0.5mm onside. Should a goal be given or should it be ruled out?

 

Goal should be given - the benefit of doubt should go to the attacker because it cannot be 100% sure of it being offside.

[aintforever]

They aren’t behind play.

 

You appear to be living in a parallel universe where the match officials havn't been making glaring errors week-in week-out.

 

If anything, the use of VAR has shown how near impossible the linos job has been over the years. 13cm margin of error for VAR, it must be close to 6ft margin of error for some old bloke trying to run down a line and at the same time try and work out who's in line at the exact moment the ball is kicked in a completely different area of the pitch - all whilst receiving dogs abuse from thousands of ****ed up football fans.

 

And as we all know, any level of doubt and teams like Saints get **** all our favour when against a glamour side. Give me 13cm any day.