Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 It shows a narrow mind though questioning accepted sources that we trust for other information. You cited a source 83 years after his supposed death. That isn't good evidence. I'll say it again... I have not said he did not exist as a historical figure, perhaps he did or the story of him is a mish-mash of a number of men. What I said is that the claim he existed has not met its burden of proof as it lacks credibility due to nothing being contemporary and outside the Bible to validate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 We'd need some evidence he even existed as a historical figure. No contemporary accounts of him exist! No implication here whatsoever. ‘evidence he even existed’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 No implication here whatsoever. ‘evidence he even existed’ You are confusing these two... a - Jesus does not exist b - the evidence for Jesus existing does not meet its burden of proof I have only ever said b), not a). They are not the same thing! Saying someone is innocent is not the same as saying they are not gulity. Jury's decide if someone is guilty or not guilty, not if they are innocent or not innocent. The burden of proof is on the person making a claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 A man with wounds in his hands, is not strong evidence the man in front of you is Jesus. You have a very low bar on the level evidence you need to believe something! Such low bars of acceptance is what leads to brainwashing, indoctrination and gullibility! Complete and utter pony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Complete and utter pony Ok... what evidence apart from an old book do you have to believe Jesus performed miracles and rose from the dead? Extraordinary claims (like those) require extraordinary evidence... an Old Book is not good evidence, anything can be written in a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 OK, let's get 1 thing straight here. Do you believe Christ existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 OK, let's get 1 thing straight here. Do you believe Christ existed? I've answered this twice already... I have not said he did not exist as a historical figure, perhaps he did or the story of him is a mish-mash of a number of men. What I said is that the claim he existed has not met its burden of proof. Saying it hasn't met its burden of proof is not the same as saying he definitely did not exist as a historical figure. I'm withholding belief until the evidence supports the claim. That is how evidence works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 1) I did not wish anyone Merry Christmas in this thread... I corrected Happy Christmas with Merry New Year to Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2) I did not celebrate Christmas... I visited family and ate food And exchanged kits. Let me ask you, what do you do on people birthdays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 And exchanged kits. What? Let me ask you, what do you do on people birthdays? How is that relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 OK, let's get 1 thing straight here. Do you believe Christ existed? He must do, he celebrates his birthday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 What? How is that relevant? The first bit was meant to say gifts, predictive text, Second bit answer the question and it will become relevant, what do you normally do in someones birthday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 He must do, he celebrates his birthday! Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. As I've told you numerous times now and you choose to ignore time after time after time. Eating food and visiting family with no religious element is not celebrating Jesus. He was completely missing from the day. It is bizarre you can't grasp if Jesus isn't involved in the day then it is not a celebration of him! You will more than likely bring this nonsense up again later as if I hadn't given numerous rebuttals to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. As I've told you numerous times now and you choose to ignore time after time after time. Eating food and visiting family with no religious element is not celebrating Jesus. He was completely missing from the day. It is bizarre you can't grasp if Jesus isn't involved in the day then it is not a celebration of him! You will more than likely bring this nonsense up again later as if I hadn't given numerous rebuttals to you! What do you do if someone sends you a Christmas card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 The first bit was meant to say gifts, predictive text, Second bit answer the question and it will become relevant, what do you normally do in someones birthday? Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. Just because both involve exchanging of gifts does not mean the exchanging of gifts is for the same reason. You are bizarrly jumping to conclusions based on exchanging of gifts. There are lots of reasons why gifts are exchanged, birthdays are one of many so your point is completely irrelevant and a red herring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Source? He is guessing with no evidence to the contrary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. As I've told you numerous times now and you choose to ignore time after time after time. Eating food and visiting family with no religious element is not celebrating Jesus. He was completely missing from the day. It is bizarre you can't grasp if Jesus isn't involved in the day then it is not a celebration of him! You will more than likely bring this nonsense up again later as if I hadn't given numerous rebuttals to you! What you won’t or can’t acknowledge though is Christmas, like it or not, is a Christian festival, celebrated in England by eating food and exchanging giftS, you did that so you celebrated it, however much you try to pretend you didn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. Just because both involve exchanging of gifts does not mean the exchanging of gifts is for the same reason. You are bizarrly jumping to conclusions based on exchanging of gifts. There are lots of reasons why gifts are exchanged, birthdays are one of many so your point is completely irrelevant and a red herring! would you say you celebrated a birthday, or would you not be celebrating the birthday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Even if he existed... 25th December isn't when his birthday would be. It is merely Christianity using the date of another older festival. As I've told you numerous times now and you choose to ignore time after time after time. Eating food and visiting family with no religious element is not celebrating Jesus. He was completely missing from the day. It is bizarre you can't grasp if Jesus isn't involved in the day then it is not a celebration of him! You will more than likely bring this nonsense up again later as if I hadn't given numerous rebuttals to you! How can you say Jesus wasn’t involved in the day when the very fact it exists as a public holiday is because it’s a Christian holiday to celebrate his birth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Source? Luke 2:7-8 Shepherds would not be watching their flocks by night in late December Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 How can you say Jesus wasn’t involved in the day when the very fact it exists as a public holiday is because it’s a Christian holiday to celebrate his birth? I can very easily say he wasn't involved in my day and that of my family. Because I experienced my day. You weren't there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 He is guessing with no evidence to the contrary I've given evidence above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 I can very easily say he wasn't involved in my day and that of my family. Because I experienced my day. You weren't there! They were off work, you were off work, the reason is because it is a public holiday due to it being a Christian festival. Quite obviously Jesus was involved because without him the day wouldn’t have happened in the first place. The very fact you were able to visit your family, eat food and exchange gifts is down to religion. Otherwise you’d be at work and so would everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 would you say you celebrated a birthday, or would you not be celebrating the birthday? To celebrate something you need to acknowledge it, mention it. Non of which happened, so no celebration of Jesus occurred. We had food, spent time together as a family, watched films and gave each other presents. Why can't you grasp that is in no way connected to Jesus? I can't celebrate the life of someone I don't think evidence exists to proof he existed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 To celebrate something you need to acknowledge it, mention it. Non of which happened, so no celebration of Jesus occurred. We had food, spent time together as a family, watched films and gave each other presents. Why can't you grasp that is in no way connected to Jesus? I can't celebrate the life of someone I don't think evidence exists to proof he existed! You acknowledge it by using the day you got off work due to the festival of Christmas to visit your family, exchange gifts and eat food, which is the traditional way millions of others celebrate it. Just admit it,,nothing wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 They were off work, you were off work, the reason is because it is a public holiday due to it being a Christian festival. Quite obviously Jesus was involved because without him the day wouldn’t have happened in the first place. The very fact you were able to visit your family, eat food and exchange gifts is down to religion. Otherwise you’d be at work and so would everyone else. I have not denied the reason we have the holiday in this country is due to the Christian heritage in the country. That does not mean my day was in any way religious. Eating food - not religious Giving presents - not releigious Spending time with family - not releigious The national holiday allows the family to all have the same day off, so that makes it convenient to travel and visit them. It does not mean the reason you are their is for a religious celebration to your day. I bet a lot of Jews and Muslims in England also used Christmas day and time off work and school to visit family, does that mean they celebrated Jesus like you think I did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 You acknowledge it by using the day you got off work due to the festival of Christmas to visit your family, exchange gifts and eat food, which is the traditional way millions of others celebrate it. Just admit it,,nothing wrong with it. It does not make it religious. Religious would be acknowledging God and Jesus, neither of which happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 I have not denied the reason we have the holiday in this country is due to the Christian heritage in the country. That does not mean my day was in any way religious. Eating food - not religious Giving presents - not releigious Spending time with family - not releigious The national holiday allows the family to all have the same day off, so that makes it convenient to travel and visit them. It does not mean the reason you are their is for a religious celebration to your day. I bet a lot of Jews and Muslims in England also used Christmas day and time off work and school to visit family, does that mean they celebrated Jesus like you think I did? So how can you admit it’s a Christian festival, a religion based on Jesus then Repeatedly deny it has anything to do with jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 It does not make it religious. Religious would be acknowledging God and Jesus, neither of which happened! Why celebrate it on that day then? Why not wait until the weekend, only 3 days away, or New Year’s Day, you could even have done it on Boxing Day, also a public holiday, no, you chose to do all your celebrating on Christmas Day, you celebrated a religious festival didn’t you Matthew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 So how can you admit it’s a Christian festival, a religion based on Jesus then Repeatedly deny it has anything to do with jesus? Surely you have to admit that there was very little about Christianity over the past few weeks? Almost entirely commercialism and conspicuous consumption as far as I could see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 I've answered this twice already... I have not said he did not exist as a historical figure, perhaps he did or the story of him is a mish-mash of a number of men. What I said is that the claim he existed has not met its burden of proof. Saying it hasn't met its burden of proof is not the same as saying he definitely did not exist as a historical figure. I'm withholding belief until the evidence supports the claim. That is how evidence works! The only thing you're answering here is that you simply don't understand the scriptures, at all... For example... No they aren't! A few (of many) horrific examples of the nonsense of Jesus... Jesus say beating slaves is ok... (Luke 12:47) Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has “come not to send peace, but a sword.” (Matthew 10:34) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. (Mark 7:9) Ok, I’m getting really quite bored of you missing the point. Anyway. Luke 12:47 is referring directly to the end of the church age and his return. Meaning if you’re not expecting his return you’ll be going through the tribulation. By the way, 28% of the bible is devoted to prophecy and warning of what’s to come (or has already happened). But you don’t believe it so it’s irrelevant to you. Here is Mark 7:9. Where exactly does he say about killing children? https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7-9&version=NIV Still wanting to know when Christ turned into a child killer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 The only thing you're answering here is that you simply don't understand the scriptures, at all... For example... Still wanting to know when Christ turned into a child killer? I didn't say he was a child killer. I said the passage states Jesus criticises Jews for not killing their children as the commandment states they should if they are disobedient. It is clearly you that doesn't understand the scripture! Why would a loving God have commandments that are punishable by death??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Why celebrate it on that day then? Why not wait until the weekend, only 3 days away, or New Year’s Day, you could even have done it on Boxing Day, also a public holiday, no, you chose to do all your celebrating on Christmas Day, you celebrated a religious festival didn’t you Matthew. I visit lots of people over a number days. Not only on the 25th This time of year is convenient to do that because people are off work for an extended period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 I visit lots of people over a number days. Not only on the 25th This time of year is convenient to do that because people are off work for an extended period. Why are they off work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 (edited) Why are they off work? Because their contracts of employment state that they can take the day off. There is no legal right to not working on Christmas day. Edited 29 December, 2019 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Because their contracts of employment state that they can. There is no legal right to not working on Christmas day. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 I didn't say he was a child killer. I said the passage states Jesus criticises Jews for not killing their children as the commandment states they should if they are disobedient. It is clearly you that doesn't understand the scripture! Why would a loving God have commandments that are punishable by death??? I understand them perfectly well... But seeing as you want to be pedantic, the messiah criticising Jews for not killing their own children is basically condoning it, yes? Even you can agree with that I'm sure. So here's the passage you were referring to, where does he say it? It's the same as saying you aren't a nonce if you agree with lowering the age of consent to 10. Nope, you're a nonce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 (edited) Why is that? Turks, Christmas Day was set by the early Catholic Church to effectively overwrite the pagan festival celebrating the Solstice. They made the decision to name it as Jesus' birth date as it falls conveniently close to a point 9 months after the suggested date of his death, and there is an ancient historical tradition of matching the birth and death dates of religious prophets. So, to give ML:G a Get Out of Jail Free card, he could quite legitimately say that he was taking part in a pagan tradition. Also, if you follow one of the Russian Eastern Orthodox faiths, Christmas Day falls on Jan 7th, as they use the Julian calendar. And curiously, in England and Wales, Christmas Day did not become a Bank Holiday until 1971. Before then it was counted as a Public Holiday through tradition, without being enshrined in Law. Edited 29 December, 2019 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Turks, Christmas Day was set by the early Catholic Church to effectively overwrite the pagan festival celebrating the Solstice. They made the decision to name it as Jesus' birth date as it falls conveniently close to a point 9 months after trhe suggested date of his death, and there is an historical tradition of matching the birth and death dates of religious prophets. So it’s a religious festival then. Thanks for comfirming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 So it’s a religious festival then. Thanks for comfirming. It is, but probably has no real connection to the life of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 So it’s a religious festival then. Thanks for comfirming. Yes, for some, but not for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 It's the same as saying you aren't a nonce if you agree with lowering the age of consent to 10. Nope, you're a nonce. Mary is thought to have been 14 years old when God decided to impregnate her. Does that make God a paedophile rapist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Contemporary evidence supporting his existence exists. Nothing contemporary for Jesus. Whether you believe or not the biblical stories about him, there's little doubt among scholars that he existed as a person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Historical_existence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Whether you believe or not the biblical stories about him, there's little doubt among scholars that he existed as a person. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#Historical_existence Your evidence is a random Wikipedia article? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Mary is thought to have been 14 years old when God decided to impregnate her. Does that make God a paedophile rapist? Care to Answer my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Mary is thought to have been 14 years old when God decided to impregnate her. Does that make God a paedophile rapist? Up to 2013 the age of consent in the Vatican City was 12, in is still 14 for girls who are married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Care to Answer my question? I already did... [TABLE] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: eeeeee](7:9-10) "And he [Jesus] said unto them ... Ye reject the commandment of God ... For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death."[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Do you think disobedient children should be killed? Because Jesus agrees with the commandment that they should! Now... will you answer my question in post #207? Do [TABLE] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: eeeeee](7:9-10) "And he [Jesus] said unto them ... Ye reject the commandment of God ... For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death."[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Up to 2013 the age of consent in the Vatican City was 12, in is still 14 for girls who are married. Do you think impregnating a 14 year old is ok then? Also it wasn't just impregnating, it was using his position of power over her. It is an abhorrent story and making excuses for such actions by a God is bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 Do you think impregnating a 14 year old is ok then? Also it wasn't just impregnating, it was using his position of power over her. It is an abhorrent story and making excuses for such actions by a God is bizarre. King Henry VII's mother was 13, and a widow after the death of her second husband, when he was born. Placing current day social and moral values on events several hundreds, if not thousands, of years in the past is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 December, 2019 Share Posted 29 December, 2019 King Henry VII's mother was 13, and a widow after the death of her second husband, when he was born. Placing current day social and moral values on events several hundreds, if not thousands, of years in the past is moot. So do you think God is working to the morals of humans depending on what the time period is? He is the one that is supposed to be creating the moral code! We are talking about the actions of a 'kind and loving God'. Do you think a 'kind and loving' God would abuse his position of power to impregnate a 14 year old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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