Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 16 minutes ago, egg said: Nonsense. A persons personal feelings are entirely that. If something that makes Raging Bull feel freer doesn't make you feel freer, it doesn't negate the freedom he feels. You don't own other people's feelings. They do. The discussion was about freedom from the deity. It is impossible to be free from something you worship in... unless we view it as his God not existing and therefore everyone is free from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: The lord can do anything so yes he can. He can't change dictionary definitions, in the same way prayer to him has never healed an amputee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: The evidence is about as strong as the existence of Voldemort, so it’s up to you to decide if that’s enough really. The fact that we are here questioning is enough for me. And cashew nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: He can't change dictionary definitions, in the same way prayer to him has never healed an amputee! You need to get back to the Bible - loads of miracles in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: The discussion was about freedom from the deity. It is impossible to be free from something you worship in... unless we view it as his God not existing and therefore everyone is free from it. So so dense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, whelk said: You need to get back to the Bible - loads of miracles in there You have a very low bar for the level of evidence you are willing to accept if you think descriptions of 'miracles' in an old book constitutes proof enough to believe it isn't bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, whelk said: So so dense What about that statement is 'dense'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 11 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: He can't change dictionary definitions, in the same way prayer to him has never healed an amputee! He can and he has. He influenced people over time to change definitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 9 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: The discussion was about freedom from the deity. It is impossible to be free from something you worship in... unless we view it as his God not existing and therefore everyone is free from it. Wrong. Raging Bull said that his beliefs make him freer. You say that's not possible. What gives Raging Bull a feeling of inner freedom, nobody else can say, other than you seemingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, hypochondriac said: He can and he has. He influenced people over time to change definitions. I thought we were meant to have free will under the Christian model. If he knows the future and can influence our minds how can we have free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, egg said: Wrong. Raging Bull said that his beliefs make him freer. You say that's not possible. What gives Raging Bull a feeling of inner freedom, nobody else can say, other than you seemingly. From what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 10 minutes ago, whelk said: The fact that we are here questioning is enough for me. And cashew nuts I guess that’s where we differ then. The religious theology and the cashew nuts, can’t stand them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 23 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I thought we were meant to have free will under the Christian model. If he knows the future and can influence our minds how can we have free will? He can do two things at once that doesn't make logical sense to you. That's why he's amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 23 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: From what? Who knows, who cares. They're his feelings. What they are, why he has them, whether they're valid, is his business only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, hypochondriac said: He can do two things at once that doesn't make logical sense to you. That's why he's amazing. Free will and a God that influences people's minds are contradictory. They can't both be true! 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: Free will and a God that influences people's minds are contradictory. They can't both be true! 🙄 God doesn't live by your rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, egg said: Who knows, who cares. They're his feelings. What they are, why he has them, whether they're valid, is his business only. Well if you don't know then you can't claim I'm wrong. He is not free from the God he believes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: God doesn't live by your rules. So you think two contradictory statements can both be true? 🙄 Write a paper on that and you'll be a rich man with a Nobel prize if you are right! Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 32 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I thought we were meant to have free will under the Christian model. If he knows the future and can influence our minds how can we have free will? Thick - you aware this has been discussed by theologians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, whelk said: Thick - you aware this has been discussed by theologians? Can you give a good reason why I'm wrong rather than throwing around petty insults? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 2 minutes ago, whelk said: Thick - you aware this has been discussed by theologians? I'm not. What was their conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: What was their conclusion? @whelk will struggle on that. Because no theologian has given an answer that holds up to scrutiny. Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StDunko Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 hour ago, Lighthouse said: The evidence is about as strong as the existence of Voldemort, so it’s up to you to decide if that’s enough really. Didn't he manage Pompey for a while? Voldemort, not god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 42 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Well if you don't know then you can't claim I'm wrong. He is not free from the God he believes in. You're confused. Raging Bull says that his beliefs make him feel freer. That's a belief in God, and he's entitled to that belief. He doesn't say that it makes him feel free from God. I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. Indeed, he doesn't say what he has freedom from, but I suspect he's talking about an inner freedom, i.e. peace of mind, contentment, serenity. Whatever the freedom is, it is something which Raging Bull is entitled to feel, and he doesn't need to justify himself or his feelings to anyone else. They are entirely his business. The sad thing throughout this thread is that you perpetually resurrect it, but consistently show a) no understanding of he subject or b) any ability to comprehend that your feelings/beliefs do not apply to other people. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, egg said: You're confused. Raging Bull says that his beliefs make him feel freer. That's a belief in God, and he's entitled to that belief. Unless he explains what it makes him freer from it is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, egg said: consistently show a) no understanding of he subject or b) any ability to comprehend that your feelings/beliefs do not apply to other people. a) Examples? b) Examples? Raging Bull cherry picks from an old book and makes excuses for the evil bits when they are pointed out to him. Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) Edit. Quote has gone tits up. Edited 23 July, 2020 by benjii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, benjii said: Even most theologians would say the rules of logic apply to God. They seemingly don't apply to @hypochondriac 😉 Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Ah, quote seems OK when quoted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 12 minutes ago, egg said: You're confused. Raging Bull says that his beliefs make him feel freer. That's a belief in God, and he's entitled to that belief. He doesn't say that it makes him feel free from God. I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion. Indeed, he doesn't say what he has freedom from, but I suspect he's talking about an inner freedom, i.e. peace of mind, contentment, serenity. Whatever the freedom is, it is something which Raging Bull is entitled to feel, and he doesn't need to justify himself or his feelings to anyone else. They are entirely his business. The sad thing throughout this thread is that you perpetually resurrect it, but consistently show a) no understanding of he subject or b) any ability to comprehend that your feelings/beliefs do not apply to other people. Having belief in a higher being and following a religion are separate entities really, although they tend to go hand in hand. A persons thoughts and beliefs are their own business, so long as they stay within the confines of their own brain. When people start teaching religion, that’s what I consider immoral, particularly if children are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: When people start teaching religion, that’s what I consider immoral, particularly if children are involved. But... but... but... if they stop brainwashing impressionable young minds the whole system collapses! 😲🤔 Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said: Unless he explains what it makes him freer from it is meaningless. Just assume I'm correct...tell me how you think you can say what someone feels makes them freer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, egg said: Just assume I'm correct...tell me how you think you can say what someone feels makes them freer. That doesn't hold together as a meaningful question that is possible to answer if you read it word for word. What are you asking? Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 hour ago, Lighthouse said: Having belief in a higher being and following a religion are separate entities really, although they tend to go hand in hand. A persons thoughts and beliefs are their own business, so long as they stay within the confines of their own brain. When people start teaching religion, that’s what I consider immoral, particularly if children are involved. You're right in that some people believe in God without following an organised religion, but that's irrelevant to someone saying that their beliefs make them feel freer. If his beliefs make Raging Bull a happy man, great. If your beliefs are the opposite (or whatever) make you a happy man, great. Neither have anything to do with me or anyone else, so good luck to both of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: That doesn't hold together as a meaningful question that is possible to answer if you read it word for word. What are you asking? I'll say it is plain English. What gives you the right to say that Raging Bull cannot feel freer as a result of his beliefs, whatever they may be? My view is that you don't have to know his beliefs or agree with them, to respect that he has them and they help him in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 3 minutes ago, egg said: You're right in that some people believe in God without following an organised religion, but that's irrelevant to someone saying that their beliefs make them feel freer. If his beliefs make Raging Bull a happy man, great. If your beliefs are the opposite (or whatever) make you a happy man, great. Neither have anything to do with me or anyone else, so good luck to both of you. Do you think beliefs influence actions? Do you believe actions influence wider society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said: Can you give a good reason why I'm wrong rather than throwing around petty insults? You simplify predestination versus freewill like a thick person would. You’d never survive in Bible college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, egg said: I'll say it is plain English. What gives you the right to say that Raging Bull cannot feel freer as a result of his beliefs, whatever they may be? My view is that you don't have to know his beliefs or agree with them, to respect that he has them and they help him in some way. I have a right to question him if I wish. You do need to know what the belief is in order to respect it. Respect shouldn't be blind, it should be earned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 3 minutes ago, egg said: You're right in that some people believe in God without following an organised religion, but that's irrelevant to someone saying that their beliefs make them feel freer. If his beliefs make Raging Bull a happy man, great. If your beliefs are the opposite (or whatever) make you a happy man, great. Neither have anything to do with me or anyone else, so good luck to both of you. So long as that remains the case, then I don’t take any issue with it. Sadly that’s not the case for a large majority of religious people who teach their beliefs to their children and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, whelk said: You simplify predestination versus freewill like a thick person would. You’d never survive in Bible college Back with the petty insults! Are petty insults allowed in Bible college? 🙄 Have a go and explain why I am wrong when I say that an all knowing creator God is contradictory to free will? I'm open to changing my mind if you construct a solid rebuttal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said: I'm not. What was their conclusion? Do you mean you are not thick? Come on mate the game was up a while ago😀 Conclusion? Life is a mystery. Only smug patronising atheists think they have the answers as can only think at very shallow level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, whelk said: Do you mean you are not thick? Come on mate the game was up a while ago😀 Conclusion? Life is a mystery. Only smug patronising atheists think they have the answers as can only think at very shallow level You are missing a key thing here. Atheists are more than happy to say 'I don't know' to a question, they then go about looking to find evidence to answer the question. That is not the same of the religious, they use God as an answer to questions they don't have the evidence for. That is answering a mystery with a bigger mystery and doesn't provide an answer at all! Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I have a right to question him if I wish. You do need to know what the belief is in order to respect it. Respect shouldn't be blind, it should be earned! You have no right to query how something makes someone else feel. It's a matter for them. What does how I feel now, or why I feel it, matter to you? It's the same. Further you don't need to agree with a concept to accept someone else's opinion on that concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Back with the petty insults! Are petty insults allowed in Bible college? 🙄 Have a go and explain why I am wrong when I say that an all knowing creator God is contradictory to free will? I'm open to changing my mind if you construct a solid rebuttal. What makes you think it an insult? It is an observation from your obvious inability to comprehend things. Not much of a step up from a robot. I don’t claim to have all the answers and even if I did I can see you are absolutely not open. How would I explain love or attraction to you to make you understand why you should love a certain woman or man? Not everything is resolved by a logical argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, egg said: You have no right to query how something makes someone else feel. It's a matter for them. What does how I feel now, or why I feel it, matter to you? It's the same. Further you don't need to agree with a concept to accept someone else's opinion on that concept. I have a right to freedom of speech. So if I want to question someone... I will. You appear to want some kind of religious totalitarian system where people can't be questioned for their beliefs. That isn't a healthy society. If people's beleifs can not hold up to scrutity under questioning perhaps they are flimsy beliefs and should be discarded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Turkish will be cock-a-hoop when he get’s here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 Just now, whelk said: What makes you think it an insult? It is an observation from your obvious inability to comprehend things. Not much of a step up from a robot. I don’t claim to have all the answers and even if I did I can see you are absolutely not open. How would I explain love or attraction to you to make you understand why you should love a certain woman or man? Not everything is resolved by a logical argument The religious like to take things away from logic and towards irrationality... because that is how they attempt to justify their unfounded beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, whelk said: Turkish will be cock-a-hoop when he get’s here Because he is a wind-up merchant who likes to repeat the same fundamentally flawed arguments despite being rebutted with facts as you do, but unlike you he possibly doesn't believe everything he says? Edited 23 July, 2020 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I have a right to freedom of speech. So if I want to question someone... I will. You appear to want some kind of religious totalitarian system where people can't be questioned for their beliefs. That isn't a healthy society. If people's beleifs can not hold up to scrutity under questioning perhaps they are flimsy beliefs and should be discarded! Nope, this is as simple as Raging Bull saying that his beliefs make him feel freer. You said that's impossible which is bollocks, and something that you can possibly question. How we feel is personal and subjective. You're staggeringly arrogant if you feel able to say that another person cannot possibly have feelings that they feel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 23 July, 2020 Share Posted 23 July, 2020 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: The religious like to take things away from logic and towards irrationality... because that is how they attempt to justify their unfounded beliefs. Am I the only one who read this with a robotic tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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