badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 - Faith is without evidence - Belief can be supported by evidence (hence why knowledge is a subset) If you have good evidence you don't need faith... you'd use the evidence! So which of these sentences is correct ? "UFOlogists have faith in aliens." / "UFOlogists believe in aliens". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 In that context I would be a agnostic theist in the top right of the diagram. I believe it is possible, but don't know it is true. Stop posting that diagram and the bit in bold is fundamentally wrong. That is not a belief, that is a necessary truth, we know it to be possible. I asked you for your belief, you don't have one either way. In this context, you are neither theist, nor atheist. You are agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 That much is obvious, the original question was not about knowledge. I asked if he believed I had a goldfish, he said he believed it is possible, which isn’t an answer. We know for certain that it’s possible I have a goldfish, that isn’t his belief. What he is refusing to admit is that he doesn’t have a belief either way and is therefore neither theist nor atheist, in this context. Again, to be fair to MLG, his answer to that question is also consistent to the answer he has given about religion througout this thread, i.e. on that sentence alone, he doesn't have enough information / knowledge to formulate his belief. Can you truly answer this question : Do you believe my sister has won £88m on the lottery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 So which of these sentences is correct ? "UFOlogists have faith in aliens." / "UFOlogists believe in aliens". Don't UFOlogoists 'believe' in aliens as a result of evidence - perceived or real - that they have been exposed to, thus determining their knowledge of aliens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Stop posting that diagram and the bit in bold is fundamentally wrong. That is not a belief, that is a necessary truth, we know it to be possible. It is not wrong, because knowledge is a subset of belief. You have beliefs and these beliefs can be supported by evidence/knowledge. That is what makes it a subset. I asked you for your belief, you don't have one either way. In this context, you are neither theist, nor atheist. You are agnostic. Do you believe in regard to god everyone is either an...? i) agnostic atheist ii) gnostic atheist iii) agnostic theist iv) gnostic theist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 So which of these sentences is correct ? "UFOlogists have faith in aliens." / "UFOlogists believe in aliens". How is this relevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 The reason I’m holding off fully answering the question is because: 1. It would be an essay 2. Would mean me entering into a debate I don’t have the time for 3. Unlike most of the UK population, I’m still neck deep in work and aren’t being paid by the government to have an extended holiday. 4. Because of 3, I can’t do 1 & 2 Trouble is, you say you’ve read the bible, but you haven’t understood it. For example, your last cherry picking was about God killing the first born males in Egypt. But what you failed to see was that they were holding the Jews captive over a long period and had been warned a number of times to release them or face the consequences. Why didn’t you talk about the slavery of the Jews leading up to the Passover? Wow, and you believe that?. The Nile turned to blood, the parting of the waves, frogs, bugs, pestilence, boils, storm of fire, locusts, three days of darkness and death of firstborn. You mention cherry picking bits out of the bible, well, this has been pretty much done by all so called Christian denominations since it was written to suite their own agendas. I was brought up as a Jehovah's Witness until I saw sense and was then kicked out. At the end of the day all religions are the same, pretty much reliant on a book written thousands of years ago but interpreting it all differently, but when questioned and struggling for answers it's the same old response "you've got to have faith". Well I have faith in evolution because it has shown more substantial evidence than the bible has ever done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Again, to be fair to MLG, his answer to that question is also consistent to the answer he has given about religion througout this thread, i.e. on that sentence alone, he doesn't have enough information / knowledge to formulate his belief. Can you truly answer this question : Do you believe my sister has won £88m on the lottery? Which contradicts his earlier post Not true, you either believe in an intervening god(theism) or you don't (atheism). There is no third option, you are one or the other. There is a third option, that you are agnostic and don't hold a belief either way. That was the point of the goldfish example, he clearly has no belief either way. I don’t believe that your sister won the lottery because there is strong evidence to the contrary, I.e. the mathematical odds against it. That’s different. There is no evidence supporting or contrary to there being a god, hence it is possible to be purely agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 How is this relevant? "Faith is without evidence" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Which contradicts his earlier post There is a third option, that you are agnostic and don't hold a belief either way. That was the point of the goldfish example, he clearly has no belief either way. I don’t believe that your sister won the lottery because there is strong evidence to the contrary, I.e. the mathematical odds against it. That’s different. There is no evidence supporting or contrary to there being a god, hence it is possible to be purely agnostic. But isn't your 'agnostic' option the same as the superposition in Shrodinger's cat - i.e. whether or not you have a goldfish is a superposition until it interacts with or is observed by the external world (open your door, go in your house and see whether you have a goldfish or not). Therefore, more information is needed in order to confirm one way or the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 But isn't your 'agnostic' option the same as the superposition in Shrodinger's cat - i.e. whether or not you have a goldfish is a superposition until it interacts with or is observed by the external world (open your door, go in your house and see whether you have a goldfish or not). Therefore, more information is needed in order to confirm one way or the other? Yes, that’s exactly my point. You can have no information with which to make a decision and therefore neither believe nor disbelieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Don't let facts get in the way of egg imagining what he thinks I've said rather than what I actually said! To be fair mate I skim much of the sh:te you post so some of the detail gets lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 22 April, 2020 Share Posted 22 April, 2020 To be fair mate I skim much of the sh:te you post so some of the detail gets lost. To be fair mate, you quoted him saying 'he didn't know' when you berated him for not saying 'he didn't know' - it was only 2 lines that you quoted! Not sure how the details could have got lost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 22 April, 2020 Share Posted 22 April, 2020 "Faith is without evidence" You have misquoted me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 April, 2020 Share Posted 22 April, 2020 "Faith is without evidence" You have misquoted me. "QUOTE=Matthew Le God;2816269]- Faith is without evidence - Belief can be supported by evidence (hence why knowledge is a subset) If you have good evidence you don't need faith... you'd use the evidence![/quote" Where is the misquote ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 22 April, 2020 Share Posted 22 April, 2020 "QUOTE=Matthew Le God;2816269] Where is the misquote ? You have taken it out of context when in combination with other posts. Faith is the excuse people give if they don't have good evidence, if you had good evidence you would not need faith... you'd use the evidence instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 22 April, 2020 Share Posted 22 April, 2020 You have taken it out of context when in combination with other posts. So I didn't misquote you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 23 April, 2020 Share Posted 23 April, 2020 You have taken it out of context when in combination with other posts. You of all people accusing others of taking things out of context. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 23 April, 2020 Share Posted 23 April, 2020 You of all people accusing others of taking things out of context. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: "when in combination with other posts". I'm not sure which 'other' posts I am supposed to have taken account of, it's a struggle to make sense of most of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 April, 2020 Share Posted 23 April, 2020 You of all people accusing others of taking things out of context. :lol::lol::lol::lol: 1) What are you claiming I've taken out of context? 2) Still waiting for you to answer the question about Noah's flood! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 23 April, 2020 Share Posted 23 April, 2020 "when in combination with other posts". I'm not sure which 'other' posts I am supposed to have taken account of, it's a struggle to make sense of most of them. I quoted it in post #1331. Faith is the excuse people give if they don't have good evidence, if you had good evidence you would not need faith... you'd use the evidence instead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 MLG, surely the presence and quality of evidence is dependent on the individual's perspective. There are many millions of people who beleive in God and Jesus, and accept there is ample evidence. These people also have faith, therefore faith is not " without evidence". Your dismissal of the evidence is simply your personal choice, as you can neither prove your position nor disprove theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 MLG, surely the presence and quality of evidence is dependent on the individual's perspective. There are many millions of people who beleive in God and Jesus, and accept there is ample evidence. These people also have faith, therefore faith is not " without evidence". Your dismissal of the evidence is simply your personal choice, as you can neither prove your position nor disprove theirs. You know he will settle down if you don’t bait him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 You know he will settle down if you don’t bait him? Perhaps, but it is my birthday so let me have some fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 MLG, surely the presence and quality of evidence is dependent on the individual's perspective. There are many millions of people who beleive in God and Jesus, and accept there is ample evidence. These people also have faith, therefore faith is not " without evidence". I said 'good evidence', not 'evidence'. Good evidence is testable and falsifiable. I think you may be confusing Trust vs Faith - Trust is proportional to the evidence - Faith is inversely proportional If you had evidence you would not use faith, you'd have a degree of trust proportional to the evidence. Here is the key question - Is there any position you can not take on faith? Your dismissal of the evidence is simply your personal choice, as you can neither prove your position nor disprove theirs. I can disprove the Bible, it is contradictory throughout so is not 100% accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stug76 Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 1) What are you claiming I've taken out of context? 2) Still waiting for you to answer the question about Noah's flood! Why are you expecting to have a sensible conversation with someone who believes in made up stories? Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 I can disprove the Bible, it is contradictory throughout so is not 100% accurate. Go to the Bible Belt and try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 Go to the Bible Belt and try it. Will they be more likely than Turkish and Raging Bull to answer the questions about Noah's ark and Adam/Eve they keeping ignoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystic Force Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 Before this Jesus fellow turned up many people believed in a pantheon of pagan gods, so if lots of people believed in them at the time they must also be real. If Muslims begin to outnumber Christians at some point is that evidence that they were right after all. Or if we add up all people although Christians are a plurality they are outnumbered by others therefore not Christian wins? Appeals to old books, feelings and personal experience do not constitute evidence. Weird how all this god action happened long enough ago so we cant be sure of any of the details. Might be important if this god fellow expects us to do things right. If we are meant to believe that we just have to follow what is passed down how come those passing it down are in disagreement with 30,000 denominations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 Weird how all this god action happened long enough ago so we cant be sure of any of the details. Might be important if this god fellow expects us to do things right. If we are meant to believe that we just have to follow what is passed down how come those passing it down are in disagreement with 30,000 denominations? [video=youtube;Ym-k5viJ7tA] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 24 April, 2020 Share Posted 24 April, 2020 How religious schisms happen ^ Another good one is the cat people in Red Dwarf, when they split the religion in two because they couldn't agree which colour hats to wear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 26 April, 2020 Share Posted 26 April, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51928077 Was it God that answered the prayer or science? If it was God, why did he/she take so long? So, aged nine, I wrote this prayer that I said every night: "Holy creator, I'm going to sleep now and I look like a boy. I am begging you, when I wake up in the morning I want to be a girl. I know that you can do anything and nothing is too hard for you... "If you do that, I promise that I will be a good girl. I will dress in the most modest clothes. I will keep all the commandments girls have to keep. "When I get older, I will be the best wife. I will help my husband study the Torah all day and all night. I will cook the best foods for him and my kids. Oh God, help me." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stug76 Posted 26 April, 2020 Share Posted 26 April, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-51928077 Was it God that answered the prayer or science? If it was God, why did he/she take so long? How did God get it so wrong in the first place? Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 April, 2020 Share Posted 26 April, 2020 How did God get it so wrong in the first place? /QUOTE] a) he is inept... because an all-knowing god would know in advance his ****-ups e.g. Adam & Eve failing his test & him deciding to make a genocidal global flood because he ****ed up again or b) he doesn't exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 26 April, 2020 Share Posted 26 April, 2020 a) he is inept... because an all-knowing god would know in advance his ****-ups e.g. Adam & Eve failing his test & him deciding to make a genocidal global flood because he ****ed up again or b) he doesn't exist Or c) There is a god but it doesn’t confirm to any human preconceptions, including any of the known religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stug76 Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 Or c) There is a god but it doesn’t confirm to any human preconceptions, including any of the known religions.I think that I'd be unable to discount C, and agree with B in the context of religions. Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 a) he is inept... because an all-knowing god would know in advance his ****-ups e.g. Adam & Eve failing his test & him deciding to make a genocidal global flood because he ****ed up again or b) he doesn't exist Or c) There is a god but it doesn’t confirm to any human preconceptions, including any of the known religions. My options were in regard to the god as described in the Bible. There are only two options regarding that, he either exists or he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 So the inept God created beings who have worked out he’s inept. Good stuff At same time can you tell me where space ends and what comes after that....and after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 So the inept God created beings who have worked out he’s inept. Good stuff I don't see there is evidence that supports there existing a creator god as described in the Bible. I think the character of god as described in the Bible is inept. He is supposed to be all knowing, so he knew before he created Adam & Eve that they would fail the test, yet he gave them the test anyway. He knew they would fail, so it is not a fair test. He ****ed up with them. He then started again in the build up to the Noah's ark story, he knew humankind would **** up and punished humankind for his design ****up by a global flood genocide. At same time can you tell me where space ends and what comes after that....and after that? A few assumptions in that question. Why do you assume there can be or must be something? Also, how is this question relevant? Plus, what is wrong with the answer 'I don't know'? Do you know the answer to your question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 So the inept God created beings who have worked out he’s inept. Good stuff They must've done it on a Sunday when he was putting his feet up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 I don't see there is evidence that supports there existing a creator god as described in the Bible. I think the character of god as described in the Bible is inept. He is supposed to be all knowing, so he knew before he created Adam & Eve that they would fail the test, yet he gave them the test anyway. He knew they would fail, so it is not a fair test. He ****ed up with them. He then started again in the build up to the Noah's ark story, he knew humankind would **** up and punished humankind for his design ****up by a global flood genocide. A few assumptions in that question. Why do you assume there can be or must be something? Also, how is this question relevant? Plus, what is wrong with the answer 'I don't know'? Do you know the answer to your question? Agree with that 100%, No wonder the world is f*cked up if he created us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystic Force Posted 27 April, 2020 Share Posted 27 April, 2020 If evidence written in old books is evidence, reading some Livy often has Vestal priestesses struck down because of the displeasure of a Roman god, so by the evidentiary standard used they are real too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 April, 2020 Share Posted 29 April, 2020 It doesn't prove that at all. All it proves is you dont understand why there was a flood and what happened before it. An inept god who knows the future created a universe that ****ed up, so he decided to start again and created a global flood to commit a genocide. Please explain why that summary is wrong? 13 days later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 April, 2020 Share Posted 29 April, 2020 13 days later... You're younger than I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 29 April, 2020 Share Posted 29 April, 2020 It is me in 1948 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 May, 2020 Share Posted 2 May, 2020 Turkish, all mouth and no trousers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 13 May, 2020 Share Posted 13 May, 2020 Well it looks like they are spelling out for everyone who was incapable of either acting on their own common sense or reading the document themselves. It is vague and wishy-washy... reminiscent to your lack of responses to questions in another thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 May, 2020 Share Posted 13 May, 2020 It is vague and wishy-washy... reminiscent to your lack of responses to questions in another thread I got bored with you constantly failing to understand properly on the other thread so it's no wonder you cant understand the governments clear instructions on this. You're the sort of person that needs everything spelling out in black and white, that's not Boris Johnsons fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 13 May, 2020 Share Posted 13 May, 2020 I got bored with you constantly failing to understand properly on the other thread so it's no wonder you cant understand the governments clear instructions on this. You accused me of not understanding something but refused to explain it. It suggests you have no answer. If you do... give it a go... if not... then stop accusing people of lacking understanding. You're the sort of person that needs everything spelling out in black and white, that's not Boris Johnsons fault. It needs explaining because the government has given out contradictory advice from different ministers in recent days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 13 May, 2020 Share Posted 13 May, 2020 I do wonder how labour would have handled this. It would depend who was the Labour leader. I dread to think what their response would have been like under Corbyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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