Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 You adhere uncritically to the unsubstantiated teachings of one philosopher, but rage against religion? Righto. What unsubstantiated teachings are you claiming I've hung my hat on?
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 What unsubstantiated teachings are you claiming I've hung my hat on? Do you have any hobbies Matthew? They are a great way of utilising time.
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 You have taken that out of the context it was written in... i.e. towards goldfish... not god. I was using the religious terms for belief/knowledge of ownership of goldfish. Same principle. You've said that you are an agnostic theist because you believe it could be possible. You have also said if you are 'not sure' you don't believe and are therefore an atheist. Will you concede that belief is therefore not a binary choice and there is a third option other than believe/disbelieve?
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 I have not predetermined the outcome. I used the evidence from the book and made a summary. I'm sure you disagree with that summary and I'd like to know what about it you disagree with? The reason I’m holding off fully answering the question is because: 1. It would be an essay 2. Would mean me entering into a debate I don’t have the time for 3. Unlike most of the UK population, I’m still neck deep in work and aren’t being paid by the government to have an extended holiday. 4. Because of 3, I can’t do 1 & 2 Trouble is, you say you’ve read the bible, but you haven’t understood it. For example, your last cherry picking was about God killing the first born males in Egypt. But what you failed to see was that they were holding the Jews captive over a long period and had been warned a number of times to release them or face the consequences. Why didn’t you talk about the slavery of the Jews leading up to the Passover?
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Same principle. You've said that you are an agnostic theist because you believe it could be possible. You have also said if you are 'not sure' you don't believe and are therefore an atheist. Agnostic theist in regard to you owning a goldfish = I think it is possible you could own a goldfish, but I don't know you own a goldfish Will you concede that belief is therefore not a binary choice and there is a third option other than believe/disbelieve? Belief is binary, you either believe or you don't. You can be an agnostic believer or an agnostic unbeliever.
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 How would a ban work? This isn't 1984 with thought crime. It will be outlawed in the no too distant future. Anyway, as you keep banging on about answering questions “would you ban Christianity or make it punishable if you could”?
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 If I'm boring why do you keep positing in this thread? Is it not healthy to have your views on the Bible challenged? If they all true then any challenge should be easy to deal with. My bad, I shouldn’t have called you boring.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 The reason I’m holding off fully answering the question is because: 1. It would be an essay 2. Would mean me entering into a debate I don’t have the time for 3. Unlike most of the UK population, I’m still neck deep in work and aren’t being paid by the government to have an extended holiday. 4. Because of 3, I can’t do 1 & 2 A quick summary of why my summary is wrong with do. You had time enough to write this reply and in that time you could have answered it. Trouble is, you say you’ve read the bible, but you haven’t understood it. For example, your last cherry picking was about God killing the first born males in Egypt. But what you failed to see was that they were holding the Jews captive over a long period and had been warned a number of times to release them or face the consequences. What did the Egyptian babies do that warranted death? How can a god be 100% kind and loving if he kills babies? Also... there is 0% archaeological evidence Jews where ever held as slaves as described in the Bible. Why didn’t you talk about the slavery of the Jews leading up to the Passover? Why is that relevant? As I just said, there is no archaeological evidence the Jews were held as slaves. The Bible gives instructions for Jews on who they can own as slaves, so the god of the Bible clearly thinks slavery is ok for the Jews to do.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 It will be outlawed in the no too distant future. How have you come to that conclusion? Anyway, as you keep banging on about answering questions “would you ban Christianity or make it punishable if you could”? I wouldn't ban it, but it is harmful to society to believe its moral system and teachings. Do you think we should follow the 10 commandments? One of them says disobedient children should be stoned to death? Should we ignore that commandment?
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Agnostic theist in regard to you owning a goldfish = I think it is possible you could own a goldfish, but I don't know you own a goldfish Belief is binary, you either believe or you don't. You can be an agnostic believer or an agnostic unbeliever. That makes no sense. Agnostic literally means you are neither a believer nor a nonbeliever. You can be atheist, agnostic or theist. There are (at least) three options.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 That makes no sense. Agnostic literally means you are neither a believer nor a nonbeliever. Agnosticism concerns knowledge... not belief You can be atheist, agnostic or theist. There are (at least) three options. Atheist & theism concerns belief Agnosticism and gnostism concerns knowledge
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 How have you come to that conclusion? I wouldn't ban it, but it is harmful to society to believe its moral system and teachings. Do you think we should follow the 10 commandments? One of them says disobedient children should be stoned to death? Should we ignore that commandment? Here we go again... Do the 10 commandments say thou shalt not murder? Yes Therefore, as I keep on saying, you simply don’t get it. This is why people stop responding to you.
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 A quick summary of why my summary is wrong with do. You had time enough to write this reply and in that time you could have answered it. What did the Egyptian babies do that warranted death? How can a god be 100% kind and loving if he kills babies? Also... there is 0% archaeological evidence Jews where ever held as slaves as described in the Bible. Why is that relevant? As I just said, there is no archaeological evidence the Jews were held as slaves. The Bible gives instructions for Jews on who they can own as slaves, so the god of the Bible clearly thinks slavery is ok for the Jews to do. Actually, a quick summary won’t really do because people like you (as you’ve proved over and over again) are never satisfied
Weston Super Saint Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Do you believe I have a pet goldfish? I believe that you have one. I just don't know whether it is dead or alive
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Here we go again... Do the 10 commandments say thou shalt not murder? Yes Therefore, as I keep on saying, you simply don’t get it. This is why people stop responding to you. You did not answer the question... Do you think we should follow the 10 commandments? One of them says disobedient children should be stoned to death? Should we ignore that commandment?
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Actually, a quick summary won’t really do because people like you (as you’ve proved over and over again) are never satisfied Go on... explain why my summary is wrong
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 3. Unlike most of the UK population, I’m still neck deep in work and aren’t being paid by the government to have an extended holiday. Go on... explain why my summary is wrong Because of this!
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Because of this! You've had enough time for numerous other answers! I can understand why you might want to avoid attempting to explain how a 100% kind and loving god can drown huge numbers of people. The babies he drowned did nothing wrong, he committed a genocide of the global population because he threw a fit because his creation went wrong, strange that happened as he is supposed to be all knowing and should have known it would **** up. Pretty inept at being a god!
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 I believe it is possible he might have a goldfish, because we have evidence that people own goldfish. I do not believe he owns a goldfish and I do not know that he owns a goldfish. And if you go to his house and see his goldfish ? You are doing an excellent job of ignoring those bits of questions that might serve to prove you are misguided.
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 You've had enough time for numerous other answers! I can understand why you might want to avoid attempting to explain how a 100% kind and loving god can drown huge numbers of people. The babies he drowned did nothing wrong, he committed a genocide of the global population because he threw a fit because his creation went wrong, strange that happened as he is supposed to be all knowing and should have known it would **** up. Pretty inept at being a god! They took a grand total of 3 minutes to write. To explain what I need to, to someone like you would take a damn sight longer than that. I take it back, you really are boring and f*****g man baby at that.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 And if you go to his house and see his goldfish ? You are doing an excellent job of ignoring those bits of questions that might serve to prove you are misguided. How does that prove I'm misguided?
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 They took a grand total of 3 minutes to write. To explain what I need to, to someone like you would take a damn sight longer than that. The question has been in the thread for 5 days. Will you give it a go when you have finished work then?
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 How does that prove I'm misguided? Why not answer the question concerning your gaining the empirical evidence that Lighthouse has a goldfish, and that therefore your belief in the possibilty is supplanted by your newly acquired knowledge of it's existence. At this point your assertion that knowledge is a subset of belief is disproved.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Why not answer the question concerning your gaining the empirical evidence that Lighthouse has a goldfish, and that therefore your belief in the possibilty is supplanted by your newly acquired knowledge of it's existence. At this point your assertion that knowledge is a subset of belief is disproved. I'm puzzled why you think beliefs can't be supported by evidence.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 MLG conversion yet? Hit me with your best, most compelling piece of evidence why I should believe in the Christian god rather than any of the other thousands of gods that litter human history.
whelk Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Hit me with your best, most compelling piece of evidence why I should believe in the Christian god rather than any of the other thousands of gods that litter human history. Because he is calling you and loves you Matthew And he made toasters which have to admit is genius for when a loaf is past its best.
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Hit me with your best, most compelling piece of evidence why I should believe in the Christian god rather than any of the other thousands of gods that litter human history. What's the point given that you'd refuse to believe the existence of a goldfish if you saw it.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Because he is calling you and loves you Matthew And he made toasters which have to admit is genius for when a loaf is past its best. So you can't muster up anything remotely serious then!?
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 What's the point given that you'd refuse to believe the existence of a goldfish if you saw it. When did I say that? You are now making up things you think I've said. I believe it is possible Lighthouse might have a pet goldfish and if I went to his house and saw his pet goldfish I'd then have knowledge of him having pet goldfish.
whelk Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 So you can't muster up anything remotely serious then!? Yeah cos you were asking seriously
whelk Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 When did I say that? You are now making up things you think I've said. I believe it is possible Lighthouse might have a pet goldfish and if I went to his house and saw his pet goldfish I'd then have knowledge of him having pet goldfish. It’s ok to admit you don’t comprehend faith.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Yeah cos you were asking seriously I was, Christians claim god wants everyone to know his message. If someone provides me with compelling evidence the Christian god exists and manifests in reality I will believe in him. So... what do you have in the way of evidence apart from an old man made book?
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 I'm puzzled why you think beliefs can't be supported by evidence. Belief can be reinforced by evidence, but that is dependent on an individual's acceptance of that 'evidence'. If a strongly religious individual accepts their Holy scripture as incontrovertable truth, perhaps the direct Word of God, then that scripture serves as evidence to validate their belief. However, for many other people, as you have demonstrated on this thread, the evidence is viewed as weak / spurious / nebulous. In such circumstances the 'knowledge' is conditional. In the case of the goldfish, once the existence of the fish has been demonstrably proven, the knowledge is incontravertable, ( except for pedantic whataboutery ).
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 It’s ok to admit you don’t comprehend faith. Faith is the excuse people give if they don't have good evidence, if you had good evidence you would not need faith... you'd use the evidence instead! It is irrational and gullible to believe things without evidence.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Belief can be reinforced by evidence, but that is dependent on an individual's acceptance of that 'evidence'. If a strongly religious individual accepts their Holy scripture as incontrovertable truth, perhaps the direct Word of God, then that scripture serves as evidence to validate their belief. However, for many other people, as you have demonstrated on this thread, the evidence is viewed as weak / spurious / nebulous. In such circumstances the 'knowledge' is conditional. In the case of the goldfish, once the existence of the fish has been demonstrably proven, the knowledge is incontravertable, ( except for pedantic whataboutery ). Good, we agree... so what is your contention?
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Faith is the excuse people give if they don't have good evidence, if you had good evidence you would not need faith... you'd use the evidence instead! It is irrational and gullible to believe things without evidence. At the start of a new football season do you believe that Southampton will retain their place in the Premier League, or do you know they will ?
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Good, we agree... so what is your contention? My contention is that your contention, ( knowledge is a subset of belief ), is false. ( And again, congratulations on your unswerving ability to totally ignore the rest of my post, and it's context ).
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 At the start of a new football season do you believe that Southampton will retain their place in the Premier League, or do you know they will ? You can use evidence of previous seasons, the strength of Saints squad and other club's squads to form an opinion. You would then have a belief supported by evidence.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 My contention is that your contention, ( knowledge is a subset of belief ), is false. ( And again, congratulations on your unswerving ability to totally ignore the rest of my post, and it's context ). Beliefs can be supported by evidence and knowledge. As I outlined in post #1304. That makes them a subset.
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Beliefs can be supported by evidence and knowledge. As I outlined in post #1304. That makes them a subset. Belief is the acceptance of a truth without the substantiation of evidence, and without the need for knowledge of demonstrable facts.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 Belief is the acceptance of a truth without the substantiation of evidence, and without the need for knowledge of demonstrable facts. That is a definition I'd use for faith, not belief.
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 That is a definition I'd use for faith, not belief. So, is acceptance that extra-terrestrial life exists faith or belief ?
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 So, is acceptance that extra-terrestrial life exists faith or belief ? - Faith is without evidence - Belief can be supported by evidence (hence why knowledge is a subset) If you have good evidence you don't need faith... you'd use the evidence!
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 The question has been in the thread for 5 days. Will you give it a go when you have finished work then? You’ve consistently and militantly said that you don’t believe there’s any evidence to support the bible. So what’s the point in me wasting my time. However, WHEN I CAN BE BOTHERED, I’ll dig out a video or 2 of someone explaining the existence of God much better than I can.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 You’ve consistently and militantly said that you don’t believe there’s any evidence to support the bible. No I haven't. I may have said I haven't seen any evidence that supports the Bible, but that is not the same thing. If you can explain how a global flood that killed millions is the act of a 100% kind and loving god I'd love to hear it. The babies he killed in that story were entirely innocent and did not deserve death. It is not kind and loving to kill them.
Weston Super Saint Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 I answered this in post #1231 I believe it is possible he could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that he has one. Knowledge is a subset of belief. What a cop out. You haven’t got the grace to say that you don't know or couldn't possibly know. Next time you re-open a debate demanding answers to questions, have a crack at giving honest answers yourself mate. To be fair to MLG, he did say the 'he does not know that he has one'....
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 To be fair to MLG, he did say the 'he does not know that he has one'.... Don't let facts get in the way of egg imagining what he thinks I've said rather than what I actually said!
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 To be fair to MLG, he did say the 'he does not know that he has one'.... That much is obvious, the original question was not about knowledge. I asked if he believed I had a goldfish, he said he believed it is possible, which isn’t an answer. We know for certain that it’s possible I have a goldfish, that isn’t his belief. What he is refusing to admit is that he doesn’t have a belief either way and is therefore neither theist nor atheist, in this context.
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Posted 21 April, 2020 That much is obvious, the original question was not about knowledge. I asked if he believed I had a goldfish, he said he believed it is possible, which isn’t an answer. We know for certain that it’s possible I have a goldfish, that isn’t his belief. What he is refusing to admit is that he doesn’t have a belief either way and is therefore neither theist nor atheist, in this context. In that context I would be a agnostic theist in the top right of the diagram. I believe it is possible, but don't know it is true.
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