Matthew Le God Posted 16 April, 2020 Share Posted 16 April, 2020 Mate, I've got the concessions I wanted from you and highlighted your arrogance in daring to suggest that Christians, in your disrespectful opinion, "don't need God". I'm leaving it there. Have a good evening, and God bless 1) Concessions? No, you just misunderstood what I said and kept saying I said something I didn't. 2) They had a moral code from god in the Bible that included stoning to death disobedient children. They have now created their own moral code. No need to turn to god for a moral code if you re-write his! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC1906 Posted 16 April, 2020 Share Posted 16 April, 2020 I ain't a Christian mate. Instead I'm open minded and tolerant of Christians and people of other faiths. I'm also tolerant of atheists and agnostics, but only when they are respectful of the rights of others to pursue faith. I'm intolerant of idiots who dare to suggest that people who have faith are idiots for having it. Oh I firmly believe that people are free to believe exactly what they want - no argument from me there. But I also firmly believe that I can also be free to think that people who believe in an all powerful, supernatural being/skydaddy or whatever, who, amongst other amazing feats, created the entire world in a matter of days are idiots. I can understand why people thousands of years ago believed the utter rubbish written in the various religious texts - but not now. It's just plainly ridiculous. And therefore I fully respect your viewpoint that I am an idiot for believing that those people are idiots. I won't change your view, and you won't change mine. See cos that's how tolerance works. Just like religion - oh wait a minute:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 17 April, 2020 Share Posted 17 April, 2020 You only have to see how the Church of England was founded to realise how farcical religion is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 April, 2020 Share Posted 17 April, 2020 You only have to see how the Church of England was founded to realise how farcical religion is. Let alone the way the books of the Bible were selected, edited, and assenbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 18 April, 2020 Share Posted 18 April, 2020 It doesn't prove that at all. All it proves is you dont understand why there was a flood and what happened before it. An inept god who knows the future created a universe that ****ed up, so he decided to start again and created a global flood to commit a genocide. Please explain why that summary is wrong? Still waiting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 April, 2020 Share Posted 20 April, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 20 April, 2020 Share Posted 20 April, 2020 It is not three choices... atheism, agnosticism or theism. Everyone is either a theist or an atheist. Agnosticism is a sub-set of atheism. If someone believe in invisible pink unicorns and they didn't have evidence, would you think they were idiots? Not true. Don't forget the deists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 April, 2020 Share Posted 20 April, 2020 Not true. Don't forget the deists. Not true, you either believe in an intervening god(theism) or you don't (atheism). There is no third option, you are one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 20 April, 2020 Share Posted 20 April, 2020 Ahh bless. The most desperate of bumps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 20 April, 2020 Share Posted 20 April, 2020 Ahh bless. The most desperate of bumps Turkish accusing me of not understanding the global flood, so I give him a summary and ask him to explain why it is wrong... and he ignores it. Can you explain why the summary is wrong as Turkish doesn't look like he can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Not true, you either believe in an intervening god(theism) or you don't (atheism). There is no third option, you are one or the other. Wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Not true, you either believe in an intervening god(theism) or you don't (atheism). There is no third option, you are one or the other. Do you believe I have a pet goldfish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Wrong! How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 (edited) How? Because there is always a 'don't know / not absolutely sure / not enough data to compute' option. That big middle ground between the fanatical pros and antis - on any issue, not just religion. Edited 21 April, 2020 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Because there is always a 'don't know / not absolutely sure / not enough data to compute' option. If you are 'not sure', then you don't currently believe... so are an atheist. Agnosticism is a sub-set of atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Do you believe I have a pet goldfish? It isn't unfeasible, strong evidence exists people keep goldfish as pets. But if you said you had a pet invisible dragon I'd want stronger evidence than just you saying it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Not an old book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 If you are 'not sure', then you don't currently believe... so are an atheist. Agnosticism is a sub-set of atheism. How about Lighthouse, do you believe that he has that pet goldfish? The obvious answer is neither yes or no..., but rather you don't know and/or couldn't possibly know. That's how agnosticism works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 How about Lighthouse, do you believe that he has that pet goldfish? The obvious answer is neither yes or no..., but rather you don't know and/or couldn't possibly know. That's how agnosticism works. Agnosticism concerns knowledge, knowledge is a subset of belief... not an alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Agnosticism concerns knowledge, knowledge is a subset of belief... not an alternative. In your yes or no world, does Lighthouse have a pet goldfish? Go on, give the honest answer of you don't know and/or couldn't possibly know. You can do it Matthew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I answered this in post #1231 I believe it is possible he could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that he has one. Knowledge is a subset of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I answered this in post #1231 I believe it is possible he could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that he has one. Knowledge is a subset of belief. What a cop out. You haven’t got the grace to say that you don't know or couldn't possibly know. Next time you re-open a debate demanding answers to questions, have a crack at giving honest answers yourself mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 (edited) Agnosticism is a sub-set of atheism. No its not. Agnostic is 'not sure'. Potentially just as close to faith as to atheism. Edited 21 April, 2020 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Knowledge is a subset of belief. Also flawed logic. Believing something is true does not make it so. You are under-cutting you're own argument about faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I believe it is possible he could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that he has one. Knowledge is a subset of belief. What a cop out. You haven’t got the grace to say that you don't know or couldn't possibly know. Next time you re-open a debate demanding answers to questions, have a crack at giving honest answers yourself mate. This is an issue with you not understanding knowledge is a subset of belief, not a cop out at all. I said in the post that I do not know that he has one! The issue is you not understanding subsets and that knowledge is a subset of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 No its not. Agnostic is 'not sure'. Potentially just as close to faith as to atheism. Atheism does not require any faith in the slightest. Atheism is not the claim there are no gods, it is the rejection of theist claims. Those are too very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Knowledge is a subset of belief. Also flawed logic. Believing something is true does not make it so. You are under-cutting you're own argument about faith. I agree, believing something is true does not make it so. So how am I undercutting my own argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Atheism is not the claim there are no gods Seems to me you've read the work of one philosopher and taken his opinions to be a universal truth. You're wrong, at least in the sense that the large majority of the population would disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Knowledge is a subset of belief. As LD would put it, pony ! Knowledge is based on experience and evidential proof, belief exists without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Seems to me you've read the work of one philosopher and taken his opinions to be a universal truth. You're wrong, at least in the sense that the large majority of the population would disagree with you. What are you claiming I am wrong about? Plus you appear to be using the fallacious argument that the number of people impacts validity. Argumentum ad populum - (not a Harry Potter spell) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Knowledge is a subset of belief. As LD would put it, pony ! Knowledge is based on experience and evidential proof, belief exists without. What do you think I mean by knowledge is a subset of belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 What are you claiming I am wrong about? Plus you appear to be using the fallacious argument that the number of people impacts validity. Argumentum ad populum - (not a Harry Potter spell) I quoted what you were wrong about in my post. It was absolutely clear. Go back and read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I answered this in post #1231 I believe it is possible he could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that he has one. Knowledge is a subset of belief. So you neither believe not disbelieve that I have a goldfish. You simply acknowledge that it could be possible, based on the fact that you have absolutely zero information about my house, which is essentially what agnosticism is. An invisible pet dragon would be akin to me disbelieving stories in the bible. I don’t believe Moses parted the Red Sea for example, because that contravenes known science. However in terms of there being a greater power in the universe, there is no known science, so there is nothing to contradict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I quoted what you were wrong about in my post. It was absolutely clear. Go back and read it It isn't simply theist, atheist & agnostic. It is possible to be... 1) agnostic theist 2) agnostic atheist 3) gnostic atheist 4) gnostic theist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 So you neither believe not disbelieve that I have a goldfish. You simply acknowledge that it could be possible, based on the fact that you have absolutely zero information about my house, which is essentially what agnosticism is. You are mixing up knowledge and belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 You are mixing up knowledge and belief. If belief is a simple binary choice as you claimed, do you believe I have a goldfish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 For every debate MLG enters, this is the ending. https://tenor.com/bioro.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 If belief is a simple binary choice as you claimed, do you believe I have a goldfish? I believe it is possible you could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that you have one. Using religious terms I am an agnostic theist towards you having a goldfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 For every debate MLG enters, this is the ending. https://tenor.com/bioro.gif As Turkish won't answer this question, can you...? It doesn't prove that at all. All it proves is you dont understand why there was a flood and what happened before it. An inept god who knows the future created a universe that ****ed up, so he decided to start again and created a global flood to commit a genocide. Please explain why that summary is wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 What do you think I mean by knowledge is a subset of belief? I think you Googled Platonic philosophy and found someting to try to hang your misguided argument on. From the starting point that you may, or may not, believe that Lighthouse has a pet goldfish, if you go to his house and see that he does indeed have a goldfish you then know that, and no longer merely believe it. This knowledge is not an intrinsic part of your prior belief, it supplants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 What’s the point in trying to explain anything to you when you’ve predetermined the outcome? All we ever do with you is go round in circles. You’ve had things explained to you in the past but you can’t accept the answer because your pride won’t let you. I’ve gotta be honest, I find you incredibly boring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Out of interest, MLG. If you could ban Christianity outright, would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I think you Googled Platonic philosophy and found someting to try to hang your misguided argument on. From the starting point that you may, or may not, believe that Lighthouse has a pet goldfish, if you go to his house and see that he does indeed have a goldfish you then know that, and no longer merely believe it. This knowledge is not an intrinsic part of your prior belief, it supplants it. I believe it is possible he might have a goldfish, because we have evidence that people own goldfish. I do not believe he owns a goldfish and I do not know that he owns a goldfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I believe it is possible you could have a pet goldfish... but I do not know that you have one. Using religious terms I am an agnostic theist towards you having a goldfish. ] But you said If you are 'not sure', then you don't currently believe... so are an atheist. Agnosticism is a sub-set of atheism. So you’re an agnostic, theist, atheist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 What’s the point in trying to explain anything to you when you’ve predetermined the outcome? All we ever do with you is go round in circles. You’ve had things explained to you in the past but you can’t accept the answer because your pride won’t let you. I’ve gotta be honest, I find you incredibly boring I have not predetermined the outcome. I used the evidence from the book and made a summary. I'm sure you disagree with that summary and I'd like to know what about it you disagree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 But you said So you’re an agnostic, theist, atheist? You have taken that out of the context it was written in... i.e. towards goldfish... not god. I was using the religious terms for belief/knowledge of ownership of goldfish. Using religious terms I am an agnostic theist towards you having a goldfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 You are mixing up knowledge and belief. But you've said knowledge is a subset of belief. Make your mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 Out of interest, MLG. If you could ban Christianity outright, would you? How would a ban work? This isn't 1984 with thought crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 But you've said knowledge is a subset of belief. Make your mind up. There is a difference between interchanging words and seeing that one word is a subset of another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 I’ve gotta be honest, I find you incredibly boring If I'm boring why do you keep positing in this thread? Is it not healthy to have your views on the Bible challenged? If they all true then any challenge should be easy to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 April, 2020 Share Posted 21 April, 2020 You adhere uncritically to the unsubstantiated teachings of one philosopher, but rage against religion? Righto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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