Blasphemy and Duck Rape

[whelk]

Are you seriously questioning the historicity of Jesus? There is almost universal consensus he existed.

 

Don’t go there. His pathetic narrow minded prejudice means he dismisses Tacitus and others. The plum probably doesn’t acknowledge Julius Caesar existed as needs ‘contemporary’ evidence.

Masters aren’t what they used to be as an embarrassingly limited thinker has somehow acquired one if he is to be believed, Wonder if there is embossed picture of Donald Trump on the certificate?

[Mystic Force]

Are you seriously questioning the historicity of Jesus? There is almost universal consensus he existed.

 

Near universal consensus, but not a lot of actual evidence. At a minimum the all powerful magician version didn't exist, no one outside the bible seems to have noticed him except this weird bit of text stuck in Josephus that looks like the clumsiest of insertions. Even the new testament authors cannot agree on where he is born or in what year. The version of the nativity we are all familiar with is an amalgamation of two mutually exclusive stories that cannot be reconciled. 3 versions of the story have him wandering around for 1 year and the other version 3 years. The crucifixion takes place on different days. seems a little lax to get so many details wrong for something so important. I am on the fence if this guy existed or did this character take on several different individuals stories to make a composite figure. The teachings are done in parables maybe the whole thing is meant to be a parable and some people got the wrong end of the stick.

 

Some of the people in the stories are real people attested to independently (like Pontius Pilot) but if you read a Sharpe novel or Philippa Gregory you would see the same thing in historic fiction.

[Raging Bull]

Are you seriously questioning the historicity of Jesus? There is almost universal consensus he existed.

 

He’s too thick (or blinded by self righteous pride) to see it

[Raging Bull]

Hard to see how someone with a rational upbringing from birth would suddenly switch to believing things with no evidence. Which of the thousands of man made gods are you saying they will follow? If they reduce the level of evidence they are willing to accept for one god, the same low level of evidence applies to all the other man made gods.

 

You constantly lambast people for not answering questions but you’re worse than the rest of us

 

WHAT

WILL

YOU

DO

IF

IT

TURNS

TO

GOD

 

And by the way, just so we’re clear on ‘rational thinkers’, at the church I go to there is everyone from doctors to petrochemical engineers.

 

And as for me, I study algorithms and patents for a living so I guess I fit into the ‘rational thinking’ way of life, too.

[Turkish]

He’s too thick (or blinded by self righteous pride) to see it

 

It doesn’t help that he doesn’t really understand what he’s arguing against either. Plenty of examples on this thread alone where he makes a lot of Statements and claims But had misquoted or not understood the subject matter.

[egg]

And by the way, just so we’re clear on ‘rational thinkers’, at the church I go to there is everyone from doctors to petrochemical engineers.

 

And go back through history. That Albert Einstein was arguably one of the finest and rational thinkers of all time. He believed in God. To MLG he must be an irrational crackpot. To everyone else he's a genius who's work has had a huge influence on the philosophy of science, and developed the theory of relativity being one of the two pillars of modern physics.

 

But MLG knows best.

[Raging Bull]

It doesn’t help that he doesn’t really understand what he’s arguing against either. Plenty of examples on this thread alone where he makes a lot of Statements and claims But had misquoted or not understood the subject matter.

 

Basically

 

I’d be surprised if he even answers my question, because he’ll either have to suck it up, relax his opinions and accept someone else’s viewpoint and beliefs (unlikely) or tell his child to stay away.

 

Understanding and unconditional love forms a happy child.

[Weston Super Saint]

 

And by the way, just so we’re clear on ‘rational thinkers’, at the church I go to there is everyone from doctors to petrochemical engineers.

 

And as for me, I study algorithms and patents for a living so I guess I fit into the ‘rational thinking’ way of life, too.

 

Not entirely sure what your point is?

 

It is estimated that just 5% of the UK population attend church on a regular basis.

 

Statistically that means that the overwhelming majority of 'rational thinkers' - and indeed 'irrational thinkers' - DON'T attend your or anyone else's church.

[Raging Bull]

And go back through history. That Albert Einstein was arguably one of the finest and rational thinkers of all time. He believed in God. To MLG he must be an irrational crackpot. To everyone else he's a genius who's work has had a huge influence on the philosophy of science, and developed the theory of relativity being one of the two pillars of modern physics.

 

But MLG knows best.

 

Not to mention geniuses such as Blaise Pascal, who’s notable mathematical works include assisting with the development of the calculus of probabilities, which later became known as the mathematical theory of probabilities.

 

Or Isaac Newton, who indeed studied bible prophecy.

 

Add some of the best authors ever to that list, too. Including Tolkien and C S Lewis

[Raging Bull]

Not entirely sure what your point is?

 

It is estimated that just 5% of the UK population attend church on a regular basis.

 

Statistically that means that the overwhelming majority of 'rational thinkers' - and indeed 'irrational thinkers' - DON'T attend your or anyone else's church.

 

MLG is trying to prove that any future child of his won’t believe in God because it’ll have had a ‘rational’ upbringing. Therefore if someone believes in God they can’t be a‘rational thinker’.

 

I’m merely pointing out that’s clearly cobblers

[Weston Super Saint]

Not to mention geniuses such as Blaise Pascal, who’s notable mathematical works include assisting with the development of the calculus of probabilities, which later became known as the mathematical theory of probabilities.

 

Or Isaac Newton, who indeed studied bible prophecy.

 

Add some of the best authors ever to that list, too. Including Tolkien and C S Lewis

 

Again, not entirely sure Isaac Newton fortifies your point! During his lifetime it was LAW that you had to be religious / subscribe to religion, LAW, not choice!

[egg]

Not to mention geniuses such as Blaise Pascal, who’s notable mathematical works include assisting with the development of the calculus of probabilities, which later became known as the mathematical theory of probabilities.

 

Or Isaac Newton, who indeed studied bible prophecy.

 

Add some of the best authors ever to that list, too. Including Tolkien and C S Lewis

Indeed, I focused on Einstein as he was a scientist, and I wanted to see what MLG had to say about the belief of a legendary scientist in an intangible deity.

[Weston Super Saint]

Indeed, I focused on Einstein as he was a scientist, and I wanted to see what MLG had to say about the belief of a legendary scientist in an intangible deity.

 

What, this Albert Einstein?

 

Albert Einstein's religious views have been widely studied and often misunderstood.[1] Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.[2] He did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve.[3] He clarified however that, "I am not an atheist",[4] preferring to call himself an agnostic,[5] or a "religious nonbeliever."[3] Einstein also stated he did not believe in life after death, adding "one life is enough for me."[6] He was closely involved in his lifetime with several humanist groups.[7][8]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein

[egg]

Again, not entirely sure Isaac Newton fortifies your point! During his lifetime it was LAW that you had to be religious / subscribe to religion, LAW, not choice!

 

Then focus on Einstein.

 

Look at his scientific theories, not least the theory of relativity.

 

Do you challenge his opinion?

 

Look at his God theories, not least his words "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous".

 

Does the opinion of Einstein not, at least, merit respect?

[Weston Super Saint]

Then focus on Einstein.

 

Look at his scientific theories, not least the theory of relativity.

 

Do you challenge his opinion?

 

Look at his God theories, not least his words "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous".

 

Does the opinion of Einstein not, at least, merit respect?

 

It does indeed. However, his 'God' could also be interpreted as 'mother nature', not a singular all knowing being.

[egg]

What, this Albert Einstein?

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein

Yes, that's the one. Read all those words. He wasn't religious. As I've said over and over, many people who have come to have a belief in a God are not religious. Try to separate God, religion, prayer. 3 different things that can exist as a belief separately of each other.

 

Einstein said, and I repeat "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous". Essentially, he was saying that coincidences are gods calling cards.

 

His theory. Not mine.

[egg]

It does indeed. However, his 'God' could also be interpreted as 'mother nature', not a singular all knowing being.

I have no issue with that. I've said above that people can have a different concept of god. It's not all Morgan Freeman on a cloud.

[Weston Super Saint]

I have no issue with that. I've said above that people can have a different concept of god. It's not all Morgan Freeman on a cloud.

 

People who attend church / other formal places of worship tend to have only one concept of 'God'. I doubt people who believe in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza are attending Raging Bull's Sunday services.

[Jonnyboy]

Using an extreme. Yes ISIS are probably not a great example of tolerance.

 

There is a lot of kindness and generosity borne from religious beliefs whatever people may disagree about motives.

 

I maybe unfairly am bracketing you with the humanist campus nuts who can’t handle hearing Jordan Peterson and others inflict their micro aggressions - this basically appears to be someone who may have a different world view. They are the sort of people whose tolerance worries me far more than those who may believe in religious fairly tales.

 

Seems to me Jordan Peterson is a busted flush, makes a mint of his book telling people how to live their lives then gets himself severely addicted to painkillers and has to be saved by Russia. Not to mention his bizarre beef-only diet he espoused.

[Matthew Le God]

Did god create the device you are reading this on? Did god create the car you drive?

 

I don't think there is sufficient evidence to believe in a god... so obviously no I don't think he created those things.

[Matthew Le God]

Sure Christians believe in the Bible and God.

 

But many people who pray do not follow any religion, or subscribe to the beliefs of any. Many also don't believe that God is the creator of anything.

 

You say 'many'... but really? The holy books of Christianity, Judaism and Islam all say god is the creator of everything!

[Matthew Le God]

Don’t go there. His pathetic narrow minded prejudice means he dismisses Tacitus and others. The plum probably doesn’t acknowledge Julius Caesar existed as needs ‘contemporary’ evidence.

Masters aren’t what they used to be as an embarrassingly limited thinker has somehow acquired one if he is to be believed, Wonder if there is embossed picture of Donald Trump on the certificate?

 

There is plenty of contemporary evidence for Caesar's existence. None for Jesus.

 

The only evidence for Jesus is books written decades after he was supposed to live by unknown authors. That is terrible evidence!

[Matthew Le God]

You constantly lambast people for not answering questions but you’re worse than the rest of us

 

WHAT

WILL

YOU

DO

IF

IT

TURNS

TO

GOD

 

And by the way, just so we’re clear on ‘rational thinkers’, at the church I go to there is everyone from doctors to petrochemical engineers.

 

And as for me, I study algorithms and patents for a living so I guess I fit into the ‘rational thinking’ way of life, too.

 

They may be rational when working as doctors and petrochemical engineers but they are not applying the same level of rationality when it comes to god. There is not sufficient evidence to believe in any god. The level of evidence they are using to believe in the Christian god is so low if used consistently then they would have to believe in every other god claim from the thousands of other gods.

[Matthew Le God]

Not to mention geniuses such as Blaise Pascal, who’s notable mathematical works include assisting with the development of the calculus of probabilities, which later became known as the mathematical theory of probabilities.

 

Or Isaac Newton, who indeed studied bible prophecy.

 

Add some of the best authors ever to that list, too. Including Tolkien and C S Lewis

 

This is a complete red herring as an argument and fundamentally flawed. They may be great thinkers, but to believe in a god given the lack of evidence is not being rational. So in this aspect of their lives they aren't being rational. The rational thing to do is withhold beleif until evidence supports it. That is how science works, so if a scientist is religious then they are not using the rational scientific method when applied to that part of their life.

[Matthew Le God]

I'm not letting you off the subject of prayer mate. I still want you to explain who was harmed by that prayer example I gave you. Or acknowledge that nobody would have been. I'll address another issue once you finally deal with that.

 

A lot of the time when people pray they are harming themselves as they don't seek real answers or make real actions if they think god will solve things, this can impact on others in wider society and in the cases where there is little or no impact on individuals or wider society... so what? I haven't claimed prayer is 100% negative all the time.

[Matthew Le God]

It doesn’t help that he doesn’t really understand what he’s arguing against either. Plenty of examples on this thread alone where he makes a lot of Statements and claims But had misquoted or not understood the subject matter.

 

I think you should look a little closer to home for that. The Bible supports genocide, sexism, homophobia and slavery. It is a horrific book with god being the worst fictional creation of all time. He kills far more people that the devil in the Bible.

[Turkish]

I think you should look a little closer to home for that. The Bible supports genocide, sexism, homophobia and slavery. It is a horrific book with god being the worst fictional creation of all time. He kills far more people that the devil in the Bible.

 

How can you even dare to claim what the Bible supports when you misquoted the first sentence in it :lol::lol::mcinnes::mcinnes:

[Matthew Le God]

I have no issue with that. I've said above that people can have a different concept of god. It's not all Morgan Freeman on a cloud.

 

Morgan Freeman on a cloud >>>> Genocide, slavery, sexist, homophobic 'kind and loving' God of the Bible

 

[Matthew Le God]

How can you even dare to claim what the Bible supports when you misquoted the first sentence in it :lol::lol::mcinnes::mcinnes:

 

No I didn't. I summarised the first page, I did not quote it.

 

Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia? It clearly does all of those. The god of the Bible is a horrific character, thankfully a work of fiction.

[Raging Bull]

So the question remains

 

What you gonna do if mini MLG turns to Christ?

[Turkish]

No I didn't. I summarised the first page, I did not quote it.

 

Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia? It clearly does all of those. The god of the Bible is a horrific character, thankfully a work of fiction.

 

Where does it say “god created everything” then? By the way have you found any Christians or Muslims yet who claim god invented their kettle? :lol:

[Matthew Le God]

Yet again... you don't answer the question.... Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

 

Where does it say “god created everything” then?

 

First line of the Bible...

 

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

 

That is everything.

 

By the way have you found any Christians or Muslims yet who claim god invented their kettle? :lol:

 

The holy books say he created the universe and thus everything from that point is his creation.

[Matthew Le God]

So the question remains

 

What you gonna do if mini MLG turns to Christ?

 

As I've already said, it is unlikely to reach that point as they aren't brainwashed with irrationality at a church as a child. If they did decide to believe things without sufficient evidence later in life I'd talk it through with them to see how they reached those conclusions.

[Turkish]

Yet again... you don't answer the question.... Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

 

 

 

First line of the Bible...

 

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

 

That is everything.

 

 

 

The holy books say he created the universe and thus everything from that point is his creation.

 

You haven’t answered my question so don’t even start in the “you haven’t answered my question” line to try to wriggle out of it.

[Matthew Le God]

You haven’t answered my question so don’t even start in the “you haven’t answered my question” line to try to wriggle out of it.

 

I did answer your question. I quoted the first line of the Bible.

[Turkish]

I did answer your question. I quoted the first line of the Bible.

 

The one about who created your device, your car, toasters etc do Christians and Muslims believe god did?

[Matthew Le God]

The one about who created your device, your car, toasters etc do Christians and Muslims believe god did?

 

 

Yes, I quoted that question and answered that as well.

 

So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

[Turkish]

 

Yes, I quoted that question and answered that as well.

 

So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

 

 

No you didn’t, you answered what you believed, not what Christians or Muslims would believe,

 

So I’ll ask you again, have you ever met any religious person who claims god created their car, their kettle, their iPad?

[Matthew Le God]

No you didn’t, you answered what you believed, not what Christians or Muslims would believe,

 

So I’ll ask you again, have you ever met any religious person who claims god created their car, their kettle, their iPad?

 

The Bible claims...

 

- God created the universe

- God created humans

- God is all knowing

 

So follow that through and god created the conditions for the universe and humans whereby he knew that if he created things as he did then toasters would be invented. The creator of the universe is therefore by definition the creator of the toaster.

 

The reality however is, there is no evidence god created the universe... there is very good evidence humans created the toaster.

 

There is a difference.

[Matthew Le God]

So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

[Turkish]

The Bible claims...

 

- God created the universe

- God created humans

- God is all knowing

 

So follow that through and god created the conditions for the universe and humans whereby he knew that if he created things as he did then toasters would be invented. The creator of the universe is therefore by definition the creator of the toaster.

 

The reality however is, there is no evidence god created the universe... there is very good evidence humans created the toaster.

 

There is a difference.

 

However, you’ve missed a very important part here and where your lack of understanding of what page one of the Bible says and means is why your reasoning is yet again flawed. I’m off to bed, I’ll leave you to work it out, I’m sure you can, after all you are educated to masters level.

[Matthew Le God]

However, you’ve missed a very important part here and where your lack of understanding of what page one of the Bible says and means is why your reasoning is yet again flawed.

 

First line of the Bible...

 

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

 

That is everything. So where is the flaw?

 

So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

[whelk]

There is plenty of contemporary evidence for Caesar's existence. None for Jesus.

 

The only evidence for Jesus is books written decades after he was supposed to live by unknown authors. That is terrible evidence!

 

Do you believe any other characters in the bible existed?

Want to hazard a guess at how Judaism started? I expect you will scurry off to Wikipedia but obviously contemporary evidence only. Or maybe it doesn’t exist? Given your posting history maybe you would like it to not exist?

[Turkish]

First line of the Bible...

 

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

 

That is everything. So where is the flaw?

 

So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

 

You dont understand it do you, bless you.

[Matthew Le God]

You dont understand it do you, bless you.

 

Explain then.

 

Plus... So now you can answer my question. Do you not think it supports genocide? Slavery? Sexism? Homophobia?

[Raging Bull]

As I've already said, it is unlikely to reach that point as they aren't brainwashed with irrationality at a church as a child. If they did decide to believe things without sufficient evidence later in life I'd talk it through with them to see how they reached those conclusions.

 

So you’d accept their stance and leave it at that, without hounding him/her.

 

Do you believe in Alexander the Great?

[Lighthouse]

There are those who believe that the entire universe was predetermined and that even events which seemed like a free choice or even completely random, have been guaranteed since the big bag.

 

So there.

[Matthew Le God]

Do you believe any other characters in the bible existed?

 

1) Some historical characters and places are mentioned in the Bible and they have external collaborating evidence to support them. Jesus is not mentioned by any contemporary source. Spiderman lives in New York, Spiderman is fictional... that does not mean New York is fictional.

 

Want to hazard a guess at how Judaism started? I expect you will scurry off to Wikipedia but obviously contemporary evidence only. Or maybe it doesn’t exist? Given your posting history maybe you would like it to not exist?

 

2) Jesus has nothing to do with the start of Judaism.

 

3) If you meant Christianity... then the gospels were written decades after Jesus was supposed to live and was by unknown authors. The gospels contradict each other about the Jesus story so it is hard to take them seriously. They were embellished as the years went on to make them fit prophecy, they get more elaborate with each gospel to make the story sound more impressive.

 

4) Robin Hood and King Arthur have very little evidence to suggest they were real people... yet myths have survived for hundreds of years about them

[Matthew Le God]

Do you believe in Alexander the Great?

 

There is contemporary supporting evidence of his existence. The gospels were written decades after Jesus was supposed to live and was by unknown authors. The gospels contradict each other about the Jesus story so it is hard to take them seriously. They were embellished as the years went on to make them fit prophecy, they get more elaborate with each gospel to make the story sound more impressive.

[Matthew Le God]

There are those who believe that the entire universe was predetermined and that even events which seemed like a free choice or even completely random, have been guaranteed since the big bag.

 

So there.

 

Free will is not compatible with an all knowing God. If God created the universe and knows the future then he set the universe up in a way before we are born where he knew what would happen. So under the Christian model of a creator god who knows the future... free will does not exist.

 

That makes the whole Adam and Eve 'test' to be ridiculous... how can you fairly give a test to Adam and Eve if you know before they take it that they will fail the test. How is that a fair test?

 

So the Adam and Eve story is clearly flawed and the purpose of Jesus is to fix the problem of original sin in that story.