hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 It is very relevant to a discussion about beliefs to know the position of someone. My position is... I don't believe any god claim has met it's burden of proof. That is not the same as saying there is no god. I'd rather live believing in things that correspond to reality. Making up comforting things is asking for disaster as it limits your motivation to actually do something yourself to iprove your situation as you think there is a chance god will sort it out for you.Do you advocate the removal of the Easter bunny, father Christmas and the tooth fairy from polite society? Should we be shouting at the character actors at Disneyland and telling all the five year olds that they are just randomers dressing up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Comfort is a subjective feeling. Literally nobody other than me knows if I feel it. The deeper you dig, the more moronic you become. There is no 'my reality', reality is the same for all of us. In reality there is no credible evidence that prayer works. In fact the counter is true, it has been shown under scientific conditions prayer has a negative impact on medical conditions, perhaps through performance anxiety having a negative impact if people know they are being prayed for. People claim prayer heals cancer, but we know that cancer can go into remission on its own. Why has prayer never grown a limb back for an amputee? Egg answers that one Yes, things like believing Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse is gullible. They are more than welcome to show me otherwise. Same with Christians, Hindus etc etc with the claims in their holy books. As for this, wow, just wow. What an arrogant tosser you are. I would love you to share your views on Islam on twitter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 There is no 'my reality', reality is the same for all of us. In reality there is no credible evidence that prayer works. In fact the counter is true, it has been shown under scientific conditions prayer has a negative impact on medical conditions, perhaps through performance anxiety having a negative impact if people know they are being prayed for. People claim prayer heals cancer, but we know that cancer can go into remission on its own. Why has prayer never grown a limb back for an amputee?Tbf you cannot actually tell that we all experience reality in the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 We are just playing around with words here. What do you believe and why concerning god...? Not at all. If I'm comforted by prayer, explain how that impacts on you. It's pretty clear from what I've said that what I or anyone else feels about prayer, God , religion (3 separate matters which you refuse to separate) is a personal matter. In shorr, my beliefs have feck all to do with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Do you advocate the removal of the Easter bunny, father Christmas and the tooth fairy from polite society? Should we be shouting at the character actors at Disneyland and telling all the five year olds that they are just randomers dressing up? They are harmless on their own as long as they aren't followed up with church, home or school indoctrination and brainwashing. Spring equinox (Easter) and Winter solstice (Christmas) presents to children pre-date Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 They are harmless on their own as long as they aren't followed up with church, home or school indoctrination and brainwashing. Spring equinox (Easter) and Winter solstice (Christmas) presents to children pre-date Christianity.Right so a prayer which brings comfort to someone that isn't followed up by other things is harmless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Not at all. If I'm comforted by prayer, explain how that impacts on you. It's pretty clear from what I've said that what I or anyone else feels about prayer, God , religion (3 separate matters which you refuse to separate) is a personal matter. In shorr, my beliefs have feck all to do with you. 1) Do you agree beliefs impact on actions? 2) Do you agree actions impact on other people? If people believe prayer works then that impacts their actions and their actions or lack of action impacts society as a whole. There have been cases where people have been so brainwashed to believe praying for the sick to recover works... that parents prayed for their children to recover rather than take them to hospital and those children died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Right so a prayer which brings comfort to someone that isn't followed up by other things is harmless. See post #922 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 They are harmless on their own as long as they aren't followed up with church, home or school indoctrination and brainwashing. Spring equinox (Easter) and Winter solstice (Christmas) presents to children pre-date Christianity. Why is someone going to church or a mosque harmful to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 See post #922But surely by that logic the Easter bunny, father Christmas and Disney characters are not harmless since they impact on actions and would have a detrimental effect on society as a whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 But surely by that logic the Easter bunny, father Christmas and Disney characters are not harmless since they impact on actions and would have a detrimental effect on society as a whole The tooth fairy impacting on the actions of a child, is very different to the religious beliefs impacting on the actions of an adult. People make all kinds of actions based on religious belief that impact on those in their families and wider society. Parents circumcising their children for religious reasons really is child abuse, all children are born atheist so they shouldn't have body parts removed without consent for religious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 1) Do you agree beliefs impact on actions? 2) Do you agree actions impact on other people? If people believe prayer works then that impacts their actions and their actions or lack of action impacts society as a whole. There have been cases where people have been so brainwashed to believe praying for the sick to recover works... that parents prayed for their children to recover rather than take them to hospital and those children died. 1 and 2. if I do anything that has zero impact on anoyone else then it's not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Why is someone going to church or a mosque harmful to you? That post doesn't say I did say that. But it is true to the extent that the indoctrination churches do impact on the actions of people who go to church. Actions impact wider society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 The tooth fairy impacting on the actions of a child, is very different to the religious beliefs impacting on the actions of an adult. People make all kinds of actions based on religious belief that impact on those in their families and wider society. Parents circumcising their children for religious reasons really is child abuse, all children are born atheist so they shouldn't have body parts removed without consent for religious reasons.How do you know for certain that someone who finds comfort in a prayer has their behaviour impacted by that to a greater extent than a child believing in the tooth fairy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 1 and 2. if I do anything that has zero impact on anoyone else then it's not an issue. Name something you could pray for that has no impact on anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 1 and 2. if I do anything that has zero impact on anoyone else then it's not an issue. Can you be certain it has no effect / impact? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Name something you could pray for that has no impact on anyone else?I could pray that it would be a sunny day so I could enjoy the sunshine in my garden. That impacts no one other than myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Why is someone going to church or a mosque harmful to you? That depends if he is a straight bloke in Eastleigh or a lesbian living in Karachi or Alabama. I would imagine it’s very harmful to the later. Organised religions impose beliefs upon people which aren’t their own, based on nothing at all. Because there is no evidence for any of them, they cannot be argued or disproven, so they can fly off on all sorts of tangents completely unregulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 How do you know for certain that someone who finds comfort in a prayer has their behaviour impacted by that to a greater extent than a child believing in the tooth fairy? I didn't say it did. But I don't think it is unreasonable to think a religious adult who believes the Bible is the word of God is going to have the book impact a wider range of their actions than a 4 year old who believes the tooth fairy gives them money for a tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 I could pray that it would be a sunny day so I could enjoy the sunshine in my garden. That impacts no one other than myself. It would have a massive impact on someone who has solar urticaria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 I didn't say it did. But I don't think it is unreasonable to think a religious adult who believes the Bible is the word of God is going to have the book impact a wider range of their actions than a 4 year old who believes the tooth fairy gives them money for a tooth.So the answer is you can't say that it would impact their actions to any great degree. The question is: is it possible for someone to derive comfort from prayer and that action be harmless to others? And the answer to that is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 But surely by that logic the Easter bunny, father Christmas and Disney characters are not harmless since they impact on actions and would have a detrimental effect on society as a whole The tooth fairy impacting on the actions of a child, is very different to the religious beliefs impacting on the actions of an adult. People make all kinds of actions based on religious belief that impact on those in their families and wider society. Parents circumcising their children for religious reasons really is child abuse, all children are born atheist so they shouldn't have body parts removed without consent for religious reasons. It potentially sets people up for being gullible in later life and believing a whole host of things without evidence. From fairies to gods and messiahs. That post doesn't say I did say that. But it is true to the extent that the indoctrination churches do impact on the actions of people who go to church. Actions impact wider society. They are harmless on their own as long as they aren't followed up with church, home or school indoctrination and brainwashing. Spring equinox (Easter) and Winter solstice (Christmas) presents to children pre-date Christianity. Do you advocate the removal of the Easter bunny, father Christmas and the tooth fairy from polite society? Should we be shouting at the character actors at Disneyland and telling all the five year olds that they are just randomers dressing up? Easter is harmless as long as not followed up by church, so yes you did say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 I could pray that it would be a sunny day so I could enjoy the sunshine in my garden. That impacts no one other than myself. If you believe that god would alter the weather for you because you prayed then it shows a level of gullibility that you would likely take into other aspects of your life and that would impact other people in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 It would have a massive impact on someone who has solar urticaria.Only if the prayer works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Easter is harmless as long as not followed up by church, so yes you did say that. Say what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Name something you could pray for that has no impact on anyone else? Example. I could pray that you develop an ability to understand other people's opinions. It may help me knowing I've tried to help you. Tell me how my doing that without your knowledge impacts you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Example. I could pray that you develop an ability to understand other people's opinions. It may help me knowing I've tried to help you. Tell me how my doing that without your knowledge impacts you. If you believe that god would do that for you because you prayed then it shows a level of gullibility that you would likely take into other aspects of your life and that would impact other people in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 (edited) If you believe that god would alter the weather for you because you prayed then it shows a level of gullibility that you would likely take into other aspects of your life and that would impact other people in society.Even if I didn't pray I would have the exact same level of gullibility as you describe it. My decision to say a prayer hasn't made me any more gullible than I was pre-prayer. You have already admitted that it's conceivable that someone deriving comfort from a prayer can be harmless in the same way that a child believing in the tooth fairy is so what's the argument? Edited 12 April, 2020 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Even if I didn't pray I would have the exact same level of gullibility as you describe it. My decision to say a prayer hasn't made me any more gullible than I was pre prayer. It does because you'd use the occasions prayer appeared to work to reinforce your belief that prayer works. When prayer has been shown to work the same, or slightly less than chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 It does because you'd use the occasions prayer appeared to work to reinforce your belief that prayer works. When prayer has been shown to work the same, or slightly less than chance.Not necessarily. Maybe the times when prayer doesn't work will make me question the validity of prayer and make me less gullible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 So the last few days we’ve established MLG is anti Semitic, thinks all Muslims are gullible, doesn’t know the difference between a fact and a belief and believes he has the right to challenge terminally ill people praying to god for comfort as this is a false comfort What a lovely bloke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 So the last few days we’ve established MLG is anti Semitic, thinks all Muslims are gullible, doesn’t know the difference between a fact and a belief and believes he has the right to challenge terminally ill people praying to god for comfort as this is a false comfort What a lovely bloke We have learned... - Turkish can't provide evidence of anti-antisemitism - Turkish thinks people who believe in flying horses are not gullible - Turkish doesn't know the difference between facts and beliefs - Turkish doesn't understand that false hope/comfort isn't healthy to both yourself and society in the long run Oh... and he doesn't answer questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 We have learned... - Turkish can't provide evidence of anti-antisemitism - Turkish thinks people who believe in flying horses are not gullible - Turkish doesn't know the difference between facts and beliefs - Turkish doesn't understand that false hope/comfort isn't healthy to both yourself and society in the long run Oh... and he doesn't answer questions Pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread thinks you’re being a moron. When you think it’s everyone else it usually isn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 We have learned... - Turkish can't provide evidence of anti-antisemitism - Turkish thinks people who believe in flying horses are not gullible - Turkish doesn't know the difference between facts and beliefs - Turkish doesn't understand that false hope/comfort isn't healthy to both yourself and society in the long run Oh... and he doesn't answer questionsIf a child believing in the tooth fairy is harmless as you claim it to be, is it not conceivable that an adult deriving comfort from a prayer could be equally harmless? If a gullible person prays or doesn't pray, does the act of praying make them more gullible in every case or could it actually be the case that praying could lead to disillusionment and actually make them less gullible as a result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 If a child believing in the tooth fairy is harmless as you claim it to be, is it not conceivable that an adult deriving comfort from a prayer could be equally harmless? No, because the actions of adults have wider ramifications in general than the actions of children. If a gullible person prays or doesn't pray, does the act of praying make them more gullible in every case or could it actually be the case that praying could lead to disillusionment and actually make them less gullible as a result? Possibly yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 Pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread thinks you’re being a moron. When you think it’s everyone else it usually isn’t. It is that kind of thinking that majority views show the path to truth that leads to things like people thinking the universe is geocentric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 If you believe that god would do that for you because you prayed then it shows a level of gullibility that you would likely take into other aspects of your life and that would impact other people in society. You miss my point.. How would it effect you, ie where is the harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 It is that kind of thinking that majority views show the path to truth that leads to things like people thinking the universe is geocentric. If you think its reasonable behaviour that telling a parent praying to god to help his child recover from a terminal illness is pointless and providing false comfort then is says quite a lot about you pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 If you believe that god would do that for you because you prayed then it shows a level of gullibility that you would likely take into other aspects of your life and that would impact other people in society. You miss my point.. How would it effect you, ie where is the harm? I didn't miss the point, you have. I am part of society, society doesn't benefit from having gullible members whose actions impact others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 If you think its reasonable behaviour that telling a parent praying to god to help his child recover from a terminal illness is pointless and providing false comfort then is says quite a lot about you pal. Parents have done just that and had such a strong belief prayer works that they only prayed and didn't seek medical help. Their children died as a result! Belied in prayer impacts actions, actions killed those children! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 No, because the actions of adults have wider ramifications in general than the actions of children. Possibly yesIn general? But not all the time? So again, is it conceivable that there exists an adult who prays, gets comfort and is equally as harmless as a child believing in the tooth fairy? And with regards to my second question, it sounds like you have agreed that prayer does not always make you more gullible and can in fact be beneficial because it makes someone who is gullible less gullible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 I didn't miss the point, you have. I am part of society, society doesn't benefit from having gullible members whose actions impact others. You asked for an example of a prayer which had no impact on a third party. I gave you such an example. You have absolutely no argument against what I have said so have responded with utter nonsense. Sometimes one just has to "I'm wrong". Give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 (edited) So MLG you have now admitted that there are ocassions when prayer can be both "harmless" and even potentially "beneficial." presumably on the occasions when it is harmless and beneficial you wouldn't be opposed to it happening? I can't see why logically you wouldn't be. Edited 12 April, 2020 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 12 April, 2020 Share Posted 12 April, 2020 MLG If you decide to have a child in the future and it decides that God is real and turns to Christ, what will you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 MLG If you decide to have a child in the future and it decides that God is real and turns to Christ, what will you do? That would be unlikely to happen as they'd have had an upbringing with a rational, evidence based grounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 (edited) That would be unlikely to happen as they'd have had an upbringing with a rational, evidence based grounding. Too right. No dreams for the offspring of MLG. Cold hard reality only. Make sure they know the mortality rate of cancer victims and the economic inequalities in Africa by age 7 and we are on to a winner. Just imagine the horror of the MLG household if 2 year old MLG child develops an imaginary friend. The very idea brings me out in a cold sweat. Edited 13 April, 2020 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 That would be unlikely to happen as they'd have had an upbringing with a rational, evidence based grounding. So what will you do when they see the light and turn to God? Because judging by your extreme reactions to me and my faith you’ll end up disowning each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 Is there a huge assumption being made that MLG is going to have sex?[emoji3] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 So what will you do when they see the light and turn to God? Because judging by your extreme reactions to me and my faith you’ll end up disowning each other? Surely if they 'turn to God' then they will undoubtedly forgive the sins of the father Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 13 April, 2020 Share Posted 13 April, 2020 So what will you do when they see the light and turn to God? Because judging by your extreme reactions to me and my faith you’ll end up disowning each other? Tends to be the religious folk who go down the intolerance path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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