Blasphemy and Duck Rape

[Turkish]

Probably because in 1871 when they were legally declared as bank holidays, religion played an important part in people's lives, owing to the fact that science hadn't yet developed sufficiently to debunk most of the myths.

 

Science doesn’t stop people wanting to be married in churches, funerals in churches, christened, taught it at school etc, to say it’s not relevant is simply not true.

[Weston Super Saint]

Science doesn’t stop people wanting to be married in churches, funerals in churches, christened, taught it at school etc, to say it’s not relevant is simply not true.

 

To insist that it is relevant for everyone is simply not true.

[Turkish]

No. It says the archaic laws of our country require it to be taught - in all fairness, it is no longer about Jesus, Mary and the wise men and tends to be more balanced covering all the major religions.

 

Why don’t we have a bank holiday on Ramadan, Yom Kippur, Maghi etc?

[Turkish]

To insist that it is relevant for everyone is simply not true.

 

I didn’t say it was for everyone. But if you’ve ever been to a wedding or funeral in a church, listened or sung a hymn, heard a prayer, or spoken to kids about it, it is,

[Lighthouse]

The bank holidays thing is just convenience as much as anything else. Ties in nicely with kids holidays and having nice regular 6 week terms or whatever, so there’s no need to change it.

 

Same with church weddings really, it’s all just tradition for the sake of tradition. Try telling most brides they can’t wear white because they’ve sh*gged half the village cricket team.

[badgerx16]

Same with church weddings really, it’s all just tradition for the sake of tradition. Try telling most brides they can’t wear white because they’ve sh*gged half the village cricket team.

 

What percentage of couples getting married in a church have regularly attended for the previous 12 months ? I suspect it would struggle to reach double figures.

[Turkish]

What percentage of couples getting married in a church have regularly attended for the previous 12 months ? I suspect it would struggle to reach double figures.

 

Why do they want to get married in a church?

[Weston Super Saint]

Why do they want to get married in a church?

 

Tradition - as Lighthouse said. It's also part of the big 'fairy tale' they've dreamed about for years and usually nothing to do with religion. Having said that, more and more people are shunning church weddings in favour of far more accomodating venues, especially since the church lost its monopoly on weddings and more civil licences were issued.

 

FOR the first time ever, fewer than one quarter of all marriages in England and Wales were religious ceremonies, statistics from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) show.

 

They accounted for 24 per cent of marriages in 2016, falling by nearly a half (48 per cent) from two decades ago. In the same period of time, the number of all marriages fell by 28 per cent.

 

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2019/12-april/news/uk/church-weddings-fall-by-nearly-half-in-two-decades

[Weston Super Saint]

I didn’t say it was for everyone. But if you’ve ever been to a wedding or funeral in a church, listened or sung a hymn, heard a prayer, or spoken to kids about it, it is,

 

So basically you're saying that religion is relevant if you are in a church! Not exactly a stunning revelation!

[egg]

Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

 

Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

 

Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

 

It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

 

If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

 

All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

 

Live and let live people.

[Turkish]

Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

 

Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

 

Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

 

It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

 

If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

 

All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

 

Live and let live people.

 

It should come as no surprise that the person who does understand this is a computer games freak

[Turkish]

So basically you're saying that religion is relevant if you are in a church! Not exactly a stunning revelation!

 

So it is relevant then. Thanks for confirming

[Turkish]

It should come as no surprise that the person who doesnt understand this is a computer games freak

 

Typo again FFS

[egg]

It should come as no surprise that the person who does understand this is a computer games freak

Yep. I'm still waiting for him to explain how my elderly neighbour praying for others not to suffer impacts upon him. Apparently it does somehow, and all of us.

[whelk]

I would like to see video footage of him arguing with St Peter at the gates quoting Leviticus verses

 

And interesting interview yesterday with a recovered victim who said it brought great comfort to him knowing people were praying for him.

[egg]

I would like to see video footage of him arguing with St Peter at the gates quoting Leviticus verses

 

And interesting interview yesterday with a recovered victim who said it brought great comfort to him knowing people were praying for him.

 

Amen (pun intended).

 

If prayer to an intangible deity brings and gives comfort in real life, I struggle to understand how any person objects to it, particularly where it has zero impact on them. I suppose control freaks operate in a variety of ways.

[whelk]

Amen (pun intended).

 

If prayer to an intangible deity brings and gives comfort in real life, I struggle to understand how any person objects to it, particularly where it has zero impact on them. I suppose control freaks operate in a variety of ways.

 

Indeed, if a Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist were praying for me I would be grateful, not challenging them on logic of their beliefs

 

I imagine the churches might be little fuller this Easter if services took place as more people reflecting on life meaning and their own mortality

[Lighthouse]

Of all the pointless "debates" on this site, this is the most pointless.

 

Belief in an intangible deity is a personal thing. That's the nature of a belief. It doesn't have to be justified or explained. It has nothing or do with anyone other than the person who holds that belief. Sure, there's no proof in the existence of the deity, its a belief.

 

Religion, on an organised basis is somewhat different. It's a subscription to a deity of someone elses choosing, and often a belief in a scripture and sometimes an apparent prophet. If someone chooses to believe that stuff, that's a matter for them.

 

It's possible to believe in a God that's not inposed by religion or a scripture. Millions do. It's a matter for them.

 

If people like the congregation and support of a church, temple, mosque, whatever where they speak to what they believe is their God, then its a matter for them.

 

All opinions contrary to the above come from people who believe that they have a right to express an opinion on others personal beliefs, such beliefs having nothing to do with them and no impact upon them. That attitude says more about those people, than the people or organisations they criticise.

 

Live and let live people.

 

Largely agree except the last sentence is where it all comes a bit loose. So many out there aren't letting live when it comes to other people's beliefs and choices conflicting with their own religious beliefs.

 

Organised religion to me is like a company sending big, burly men round to people's houses and telling them they need to pay the oxygen tax. Sure, you need oxygen to live but they've just proclaimed themselves the provider without any actual evidence backing that up.

[egg]

Largely agree except the last sentence is where it all comes a bit loose. So many out there aren't letting live when it comes to other people's beliefs and choices conflicting with their own religious beliefs.

 

Organised religion to me is like a company sending big, burly men round to people's houses and telling them they need to pay the oxygen tax. Sure, you need oxygen to live but they've just proclaimed themselves the provider without any actual evidence backing that up.

 

First part. What you highlight is the opposite of live and let live. You highlight intolerance and an unwillingness to accept and respect other people's right to their own beliefs. Instead, the likes of MLG feel the need to challenge and shout down other people's beliefs. That's intolerance, and disrespect of the views of others - nobody is asking him to accept or agree with others, but there's absolutely no need for his challenge and criticism. Live and let live - believe in what you believe in (or don't) and leave others to their own beliefs.

 

Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.

Edited 10 April, 2020 by egg

[Weston Super Saint]

 

Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.

 

Would you still have the same opinion if a radicalised nutter blew themselves and members of your family up in the name of their one true God - genuine question as clearly their 'belief' would have an impact on you.

[shurlock]

Happy Holidays!

 

Passover... the time god killed innocent first born Egyptian babies

 

Easter... the time god sacrificed himself, to himself to act as a loophole to rules he created and knew would be broken

 

 

Have you read the haggadah pal?

[Lighthouse]

First part. What you highlight is the opposite of live and let live. You highlight intolerance and an unwillingness to accept and respect other people's right to their own beliefs. Instead, the likes of MLG feel the need to challenge and shout down other people's beliefs. That's intolerance, and disrespect of the views of others - nobody is asking him to accept or agree with others, but there's absolutely no need for his challenge and criticism. Live and let live - believe in what you believe in (or don't) and leave others to their own beliefs.

 

Second part. Noted. I don't subscribe to any organised religion and personally find large chunks of the bible far fetched. However, other people believing that stuff has no impact on me, and if it helps them, then good luck to them.

 

I completely agree with live and let live, on the assumption that it is reciprocated. As a straight, white male, living in the UK I’m lucky enough that this is the case (aside from the 1/100,000 chance or whatever of being stabbed/blown up by some fanatical nutcase). Other people perhaps aren’t so lucky, like the Pakistan girl who was shot by the Taliban for wanting a basic education.

[egg]

Would you still have the same opinion if a radicalised nutter blew themselves and members of your family up in the name of their one true God - genuine question as clearly their 'belief' would have an impact on you.

 

Nobody should ever condone acts of violence. I don't condone it in the apparent name of religion any more than I do t condone violence for any other reason.

[hypochondriac]

I know little about what Jewish people believe. What I do know is that I attended a bat mitzvah at a rather Conservative synagogue last year for the daughter of my wife's work colleague. I'm never met a more friendly and welcoming group of people who had respect for each other and who were so community minded. No idea if it's the religious part that does that but I left with a very high opinion of whatever they were doing. Wonderful people.

[Weston Super Saint]

Nobody should ever condone acts of violence. I don't condone it in the apparent name of religion any more than I do t condone violence for any other reason.

 

And yet many religions do condone violence....

[egg]

And yet many religions do condone violence....

 

Don't confuse extreme loons with the general modern message of religion. Because some individuals choose to believe and implement extreme / violent views does not render that religion a violent one. The vicar in my local c of e Church would not advocate or promote violence, but that doesn't mean that some nutter of the same faith could walk into a shopping centre with an AK47 based on his own interpretation of the words in the testaments.

[egg]

And yet many religions do condone violence....

 

2 other points.

 

1. You fuse together prayer / belief in a god or deity / organised religion. That's wrong. See 2.

 

2. Are you suggesting that because of your perception (which I don't accept is how any words on scriptures should be interpreted in a modern civilised world) that its OK to demonstrate the MLG type intolerance of other peoples belief in a) the power of prayer for them and/or others. B) their belief in a god (but not necessarily a religion), and c) a religion that they see and practice as non violent?

[Lighthouse]

Don't confuse extreme loons with the general modern message of religion. Because some individuals choose to believe and implement extreme / violent views does not render that religion a violent one. The vicar in my local c of e Church would not advocate or promote violence, but that doesn't mean that some nutter of the same faith could walk into a shopping centre with an AK47 based on his own interpretation of the words in the testaments.

 

The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

 

As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.

[egg]

The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

 

As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.

 

I get that. What do you suggest? Ban prayer for people who have no affiliation with an organised religion, and organised religion,, because some extremists in organised religion act like loons?

[hypochondriac]

The problem is you don't have the loons without a solid base of moderates. I see it as kind of a pyramid, with the wide base on casual believers at the bottom. The further you go up, the fewer people there are but the stronger their beliefs become.

 

As an example, you don't get ISIS without a solid base of countries imposing strict Islamic law. Likewise in America, you wouldn't have the KKK without the bible belt Southern states. The extremists don't just pop up out of nowhere, you need that strong population of 'moderates' supporting it.

But that's like saying that some parents abuse their children so that they can be amazing at the piano so we should ban learning music. There's loads of examples of people taking things to extremes it's not just religion.

[Mystic Force]

Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.

[egg]

Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.

What's the solution? Ban prayer or a belief in God because some religious practices are at the extremes? If so, perhaps we should ban democracy cos the elcted Israeli government kill and mistreat Palestinians?

[hypochondriac]

Welcome to America (especially the bit I just moved to) and you will see exactly why this can be a problem. It is not about people live and let live its about imposing one groups will on all, specifically a right wing nationalist version of Christianity where anyone who deviates is evil.

But that's literally the opposite of what people are saying they agree with.

[Lighthouse]

I get that. What do you suggest? Ban prayer for people who have no affiliation with an organised religion, and organised religion,, because some extremists in organised religion act like loons?

 

TBH I’m not suggesting anything. Organised religion is here to stay and I’m willing to accept that. What I don’t really agree with is when something unpleasant happens and the moderates claim innocence and deny any responsibility or involvement. There is a collective responsibility; if you attend a Christian church for example, you might well do it with the best of intentions but assuming you make regular donations, might be helping finance boarding schools where young boys are sexually abused. At the very least you’re spreading a culture, a belief amongst the herd that your given religion is absolute. Others being brought up into that culture will never know another way and will never challenge their beliefs, that’s how fanaticism and indoctrination is bred.

 

In short, I think it’s wrong but I tolerate it.

 

But that's like saying that some parents abuse their children so that they can be amazing at the piano so we should ban learning music. There's loads of examples of people taking things to extremes it's not just religion.

 

The difference being there is no scripture instructing pianist to abuse there children. No commonly held belief that, ‘if a child shalt play an A flat instead of a G, he shall surely be stoned until dead.’ That’s simply an example of an individual committing child abuse, which could equally be applied to homework, playing the bassoon, ballet or anything else.

 

If you had used those American teen beauty pageants as an example, I’d have been more inclined to agree with you. There you have a commonly agreed ideal of skinny is beautiful and an institutional culture of weight loss. That then leads into extremism and problems with unhealthy self image etc.

[Mystic Force]

What's the solution? Ban prayer or a belief in God because some religious practices are at the extremes? If so, perhaps we should ban democracy cos the elcted Israeli government kill and mistreat Palestinians?

 

Well they had this idea about freedom of religion and a separation of church and state, the problem seems to be an ascendant minority group wishes to ignore the constitution and these ideas and use state policies to impose their particular type of religion on all. Freedom of religion must also include freedom from religion. Pray all you want in your own spaces the problem is when it starts creeping into schools, or other public spaces which precludes other of a different perspective from being welcomed or being allowed to take part. Say for example the football coach for a school prays before games with the team but one or two don't want to join in, then those players do not get to play. This is an issue largely irrelevant in the UK because apathy has basically won and religious adherence is quite low. But to be an atheist in this area is seen as basically satan worship, rather than an intellectual choice.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 other points.

 

1. You fuse together prayer / belief in a god or deity / organised religion. That's wrong. See 2.

 

2. Are you suggesting that because of your perception (which I don't accept is how any words on scriptures should be interpreted in a modern civilised world) that its OK to demonstrate the MLG type intolerance of other peoples belief in a) the power of prayer for them and/or others. B) their belief in a god (but not necessarily a religion), and c) a religion that they see and practice as non violent?

 

Surely in the spirit of 'live and let live' MLG can be as vocal as he likes about religion and air his views on it? As far as I can tell, MLGs 'intolerance' - FWIW I don't believe he is being 'intolerant', more pedantic - has been confined to the written word on an internet forum.

[egg]

Surely in the spirit of 'live and let live' MLG can be as vocal as he likes about religion and air his views on it? As far as I can tell, MLGs 'intolerance' - FWIW I don't believe he is being 'intolerant', more pedantic - has been confined to the written word on an internet forum.

 

Disagree. He's criticising and challenging people's thoughts, actions, views, opinions in circumstances where others are entitled to such personal feelings without needing to justify or explain. In short, they have feck all to do with him. Sure, he's entitled to say that religion is boll0cks, that he disagrees with the concept or power of prayer, that he thinks anyone who believes in God or something they choose to call God is a nut job. That's cool, I respect his opinion but I wouldn't dream of challenging it or seeking an explanation to views he's entitled to form.

[whelk]

These threads always go same way unsurprisingly. MLG protests too much as clearly thinks about it a lot and desperate to convert believers.

Turkish always annihilates him.

[Jonnyboy]

So the legal bank holidays are Christian festivals, which means however much anyone pretends it’s not the case, Christianity still has a huge relevance today, just because some don’t like it doesn’t make it untrue.

 

Do believe you in God, Turkish?

Edited 11 April, 2020 by Jonnyboy

[Matthew Le God]

Do believe in God, Turkish?

 

He refuses to answer that

[Matthew Le God]

These threads always go same way unsurprisingly. MLG protests too much as clearly thinks about it a lot and desperate to convert believers.

Turkish always annihilates him.

 

He really doesn't

 

Annihilation requires evidence and answering questions... neither of which Turkish manages

[Turkish]

He really doesn't

 

Annihilation requires evidence and answering questions... neither of which Turkish manages

 

Chat sh1t get banged bruv

[Jonnyboy]

Chat sh1t get banged bruv

 

Didn't know you were into same-sex relations?

[benjii]

Disagree. He's criticising and challenging people's thoughts, actions, views, opinions in circumstances where others are entitled to such personal feelings without needing to justify or explain. In short, they have feck all to do with him. Sure, he's entitled to say that religion is boll0cks, that he disagrees with the concept or power of prayer, that he thinks anyone who believes in God or something they choose to call God is a nut job. That's cool, I respect his opinion but I wouldn't dream of challenging it or seeking an explanation to views he's entitled to form.

 

If you don't challenge views and beliefs you end up beholden to nonsense.

 

The irony!

[egg]

If you don't challenge views and beliefs you end up beholden to nonsense.

 

The irony!

 

Nonsense. Nobody is beholden to the personal opinions and choices of others re a) prayer, or b) God, or c) religion. We're beholden only to our own beliefs. Everything else is a matter of personal choice - what I choose to believe has nothing to do with anyone else so why should anyone have a right to challenge it? Sure, they may regard those beliefs as nonsense as you put it, but I didn't realise that we live in a world where everyone is a thought police officer to everyone elses personal/private beliefs.

[Matthew Le God]

Disagree. He's criticising and challenging people's thoughts, actions, views, opinions in circumstances where others are entitled to such personal feelings without needing to justify or explain. In short, they have feck all to do with him. Sure, he's entitled to say that religion is boll0cks, that he disagrees with the concept or power of prayer, that he thinks anyone who believes in God or something they choose to call God is a nut job. That's cool, I respect his opinion but I wouldn't dream of challenging it or seeking an explanation to views he's entitled to form.

 

Nonsense. Nobody is beholden to the personal opinions and choices of others re a) prayer, or b) God, or c) religion. We're beholden only to our own beliefs. Everything else is a matter of personal choice - what I choose to believe has nothing to do with anyone else so why should anyone have a right to challenge it? Sure, they may regard those beliefs as nonsense as you put it, but I didn't realise that we live in a world where everyone is a thought police officer to everyone elses personal/private beliefs.

 

I want to beleive as many true things and as few false things as possible. If someone thinks something I believe is false and has a good reason to think that then it benefits me from hearing a challenge to my belief. To want to go unchallenege is doing a version of this...

 

 

If a belief someone holds can't hold up-to scrutiny then it is pretty flimsy belief.

 

Religions brainwash people into not accepting criticism in order to protect themselves. Which is why the Bible has passages to protect itself from criticism.

[Matthew Le God]

You clearly have no idea what Easter is

 

No, it is you that don't appear to know it is another Christian copy of festivals that existed before Christianity!

 

 

Easter is a mixture of things Christians have stolen from older traditions. Other cultures that pre-date Christainity have resurection stories... Christianity absorbed that into its myths.

 

Are you not aware of Mirthras... who was born on 25th December and whose followers celebrated the Spring equinox (Easter)! Exchanges of eggs are an ancient custom that pre-date Christianity.

[egg]

I want to beleive as many true things and as few false things as possible. If someone thinks something I believe is false and has a good reason to think that then it benefits me from hearing a challenge to my belief. To want to go unchallenege is doing a version of this...

 

 

If a belief someone holds can't hold up-to scrutiny then it is pretty flimsy belief.

 

Religions brainwash people into not accepting criticism in order to protect themselves. Which is why the Bible has passages to protect itself from criticism.

Try separating prayer, God and religion. 3 different things. Many people who pray don't believe in the god that you seem to assume they believe in, and many who believe in god/a god, don't follow an organised religion. Once you have done that answer my question from a while back and explain how my non religious neighbour praying to her conception of God asking for others to have peace, has any impact on you and/or why you feel that you have any right to challenge her thoughts and actions.

[Turkish]

No, it is you that don't appear to know it is another Christian copy of festivals that existed before Christianity!

 

 

Easter is a mixture of things Christians have stolen from older traditions. Other cultures that pre-date Christainity have resurection stories... Christianity absorbed that into its myths.

 

Are you not aware of Mirthras... who was born on 25th December and whose followers celebrated the Spring equinox (Easter)! Exchanges of eggs are an ancient custom that pre-date Christianity.

 

Stop trying to backtrack after being caught out posting anti Semitic memes.

[Matthew Le God]

Try separating prayer, God and religion. 3 different things. Many people who pray don't believe in the god that you seem to assume they believe in, and many who believe in god/a god, don't follow an organised religion. Once you have done that answer my question from a while back and explain how my non religious neighbour praying to her conception of God asking for others to have peace, has any impact on you and/or why you feel that you have any right to challenge her thoughts and actions.

 

I have a right to challenge it because we live in a free country.

 

Are they praying for god to change his mind? Under an all knowing god by definition we don't have free will and god already knows what will happen, so prayer is flawed and pointless even if god did exist.