General Election 2019 - Post Match Reaction

[Lighthouse]

A Parliament that actually represents the vote share does make sense.

 

Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?

[aintforever]

Yes that looks rather too simplistic.

 

Whatever a UK PR system would be it definitely would not be as basic as all votes for the whole nation divided into exactly proportional seats.

 

Areas still need MPs that represent their opinions and MPs would need a connection to a constituency to reflect the differences in areas.

 

So would be a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups to make it more proportional.

 

Anyway, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

There is no reason why MPs couldn’t be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.

[Weston Super Saint]

So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

 

He's also taking the figures from an election where PR is NOT an option and rather simplisticly applying the results. He's seemingly forgotten about the 'tactical' votes during this election and the effect they have had on the results. Results that are not going to be achieved if PR is used as the voting system.

[CB Fry]

Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?

Yes. All governments are coalitions anyway because Peter Bone and Justine Greening are poles apart as are Denis Skinner and David Miliband but they all served as part of parties with working majorities.

 

Lots of countries have rolling coalitions and quite frankly it could work perfectly well.

 

And say qhat you like about the Conservative/Lib Dem coalition but it was very disciplined - more than Major, Brown or Camerons majorities anyway.

[aintforever]

Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?

 

Absolutely.

[CB Fry]

There is no reason why MPs couldn’t be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.

What I've described is a combination of voting for a representation by an individual identifiable MP for geographic areas plus a top up list to better reflect proportionality, again by area.

 

I haven't made it up, it's how Germany and Scotland do it and used elsewhere but I can't be bothered to look.

[Lighthouse]

There is no reason why MPs couldn’t be allocated constituencies that best reflect the vote. Surely it has to be better than this red v blue nonsense going on for eternity.

 

 

Because they wouldn't reflect the vote. Put everyone in their strongholds with the biggest margin, okay fine. Then what? Using this election as an example, tell me where you'd put the 64 extra Liberal MPs who nobody wanted?

 

You could only put them in the marginals. Imagine Meon Valley being told "sorry, we've used up the quota of Tories, we need to 'allocate' you a Labour MP." You would have a very polite, middle class riot. Every election would end up with liberal MPs pigeonholed into constituencies where the vote might be Con - 23,000, Lab - 21,000, Lib - 6,000. It'd be an absolute farce.

[OldNick]

You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

 

As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.

I was a remoaner but had accepted the result, watching Alistair Campbell today on ITV where he still couldn't bring himself to accept that the message has been lost. It was pathetic how these people believe they know best and that the 'poor' are not bright enough to make their own minds up and people like him have to decide for them. Hence these strong Labour seats have revolted against these people

[eurosaint]

They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.

 

Real bad news for the SNP then (whoopee!) as they got 45% of the vote and 80% of the seats !

Wee Jimmy Krankie is very adept at using percentages when it suits but when you bear down on actual numbers the message falls apart !

2.2 mil voted to stay in the UK in 2014, 1.6mil voted to stay in the EU IN 2016, not that you’d ever know it when you hear the rhetoric of the SNP !

[OldNick]

Labour fella on BBC banging on about them having the greatest ever manifesto. Yeah that’s what it was

to be fair it was....for Johnson

[badgerx16]

43.6%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results

30% of the electorate, not of votes cast.

 

And 3 million fewer votes for the Conservatives than voted for Brexit in the referendum.

[OldNick]

Unemployment isn’t funny Wes

I dont think they will have to go to the job centre.I think there is some kind of safety net for these people.

[norwaysaint]

 

 

It's interesting to look at and reminds me of the situation here.

 

There's more to it than this as well. Once you have this situation, where no vote is wasted, then all of those hundreds of thousands who voted Tory or labour because "there's no point voting any other way" will no longer have that fact inhibiting them voting for what they really believe in. So votes for the Green party, the libdems, Brexit (or whatever fills that void), socialist or nationalist parties become much more legitimate and they can grow to become major parties in a way that they cannot at the moment, because they are "wasted votes".

 

Our biggest parties here are currently Conservative, Labour (the biggest, but not in power), the far right, nationalist party, the greens and the liberals.

 

I can't see any circumstances where the major parties would allow a change to PR though, so it's fairly pointless to consider.

[OldNick]

You get what you vote for. Theresa May herself said not that long ago that the Tories were in danger of turning into the Nasty Party and that is exactly what has happened. By draining the swamp as Duckie keeps saying, all of the reasonable stuff has gone and we are now left with a few fat toads. You only have to look at the reaction by the rabid right on here to see why a Tory landslide was feared.

Come on SOG not everyone is like that. The fact is Labour backed the wrong horse and was prepared to lurch so far left it was always going to be difficult to get them in. Even though they tried bribing all and sundry a large slice were not foolish enough to believe it. It was a crushing defeat and proves that our society doesn't really fancy a Marxist who sidled up to enemies of our nation. He got what he deserved and I myself hope that Boris goes through with what he said in his speech this morning

[sadoldgit]

I admire your optimism Nick but I don’t share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

 

As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labour’s plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

 

I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20’s and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.

[aintforever]

Because they wouldn't reflect the vote. Put everyone in their strongholds with the biggest margin, okay fine. Then what? Using this election as an example, tell me where you'd put the 64 extra Liberal MPs who nobody wanted?

 

You could only put them in the marginals. Imagine Meon Valley being told "sorry, we've used up the quota of Tories, we need to 'allocate' you a Labour MP." You would have a very polite, middle class riot. Every election would end up with liberal MPs pigeonholed into constituencies where the vote might be Con - 23,000, Lab - 21,000, Lib - 6,000. It'd be an absolute farce.

 

Could do a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups as Fry suggested. It’s not rocket science, it just makes sense to have every vote count. It would better represent the electorate and give new parties an opportunity to grow. Under PR Momentum and the ERG would just be their own small fringe parties instead of controlling our only voting options.

[Sheaf Saint]

It's a stupid argument to make. If we had proportional representation the votes would have been completely different

 

Yep, I acknowledge that. Of course plenty of people would have voted differently (ie not tactically) if they knew that their vote would actually count for something.

 

Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?

 

It seems to work pretty well for plenty of other countries. It ensures that all views are represented, rather than handing total power to the party with the biggest vote share. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

He's also taking the figures from an election where PR is NOT an option and rather simplisticly applying the results. He's seemingly forgotten about the 'tactical' votes during this election and the effect they have had on the results. Results that are not going to be achieved if PR is used as the voting system.

 

Not forgotten about that at all. The graphic simply shows what the seat distribution would look like on the basis of the votes cast yesterday. Like I already said to hypo, of course I recognise that those vote shares would have been different if everybody knew they were voting in a PR system.

 

I can't see any circumstances where the major parties would allow a change to PR though, so it's fairly pointless to consider.

 

Of course. All the time it benefits the two main parties to keep FPTP, they will resist any and all attempts to reform it. Allowing the parties who benefit from it to decide whether or not to scrap it is ridiculous. Just another reason why our entire governmental system is outdated and unfit for purpose.

[hypochondriac]

I admire your optimism Nick but I don’t share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

 

As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labour’s plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

 

I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20’s and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.

Better for "most of us." Define most of us.

[badgerx16]

Better for "most of us." Define most of us.

 

Most would imply a majority, so not the vote of any of the parties in the GE.

[Lighthouse]

Could do a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups as Fry suggested. It’s not rocket science, it just makes sense to have every vote count. It would better represent the electorate and give new parties an opportunity to grow. Under PR Momentum and the ERG would just be their own small fringe parties instead of controlling our only voting options.

 

Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

 

In this election:

 

Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP

Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)

Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

 

Then you run into a problem...

 

SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

 

So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

 

Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)

Labour - 401

etc...

 

My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.

[CB Fry]

Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

 

In this election:

 

Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP

Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)

Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

 

Then you run into a problem...

 

SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

 

So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

 

Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)

Labour - 401

etc...

 

My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.

 

Jesus wept.

 

There are proportional systems like the one I've described in play all the world. If it ever happened, maybe, just maybe we could work it out within the current 650 MPs.

 

Being that a couple of years ago the Tories proposed boundary changes to reduce total seats to 600 suggests that the number of seats can be revised and amended over time.

 

A new proportional system would be pretty straightforward to map out, not sure why you are making such a meal of it.

 

You're either obtuse or plain stupid. Let me know which.

[aintforever]

Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

 

In this election:

 

Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP

Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)

Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

 

Then you run into a problem...

 

SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

 

So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

 

Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)

Labour - 401

etc...

 

My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.

 

You just redraw the boundaries to have fewer constituencies.

[Batman]

The MPs who are Corbyn followers are on another planet..

 

Basically, if there was no Brexit they would have won. No one else as Labour leader could have done any better.

Not as bad as Labour between 1997-2010 where they lost 5m voters.

It was the media's fault.

The manifesto was excellent but Brexit killed it.

 

 

but, they will have a period of self-reflection....

[hypochondriac]

The MPs who are Corbyn followers are on another planet..

 

Basically, if there was no Brexit they would have won. No one else as Labour leader could have done any better.

Not as bad as Labour between 1997-2010 where they lost 5m voters.

It was the media's fault.

The manifesto was excellent but Brexit killed it.

 

 

but, they will have a period of self-reflection....

It's crazy. They've had people telling them for years what the problems are and they've ignored them and they continue to ignore them after an absolute trouncing. They deserve everything that get and will continue to get at this rate.

[Batman]

It's crazy. They've had people telling them for years what the problems are and they've ignored them and they continue to ignore them after an absolute trouncing. They deserve everything that get and will continue to get at this rate.

 

their merry band of followers (jonnyboy for example) are the sort to believe that if you can't see/hear the magic when Corbyn was on the TV/Radio, then you are right-wing scum and should f-off and vote Tory.

 

many are still in denial!

Edited 13 December, 2019 by Batman

[Wes Tender]

Oh dear. Maths isn't your strong point, is it.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

Joined up thinking isn't your strong point, is it?

[Lighthouse]

Jesus wept.

 

There are proportional systems like the one I've described in play all the world. If it ever happened, maybe, just maybe we could work it out within the current 650 MPs.

 

Being that a couple of years ago the Tories proposed boundary changes to reduce total seats to 600 suggests that the number of seats can be revised and amended over time.

 

A new proportional system would be pretty straightforward to map out, not sure why you are making such a meal of it.

 

You're either obtuse or plain stupid. Let me know which.

 

Well obviously both, so if it's that straight forward then please do explain how it would work for us.

 

To make PR work for the percentages in this election, without removing any elected MPs you would need 1231 seats (48 SNP seats divided by 3.9% of the total vote). So you would (roughly) half the number of constituencies in future to keep it down 'around 600'?

[Wes Tender]

Better for "most of us." Define most of us.

 

Most of us is Soggy's alter egos.

[CB Fry]

Well obviously both, so if it's that straight forward then please do explain how it would work for us.

 

To make PR work for the percentages in this election, without removing any elected MPs you would need 1231 seats (48 SNP seats divided by 3.9% of the total vote). So you would (roughly) half the number of constituencies in future to keep it down 'around 600'?

 

I didn't realise we were convening a Royal Commission on Electoral Reform today on this football forum.

 

If you can't actually imagine a proportional system for the UK that doesn't involve slightly less than twelve hundred sodding MPs then I've got nothing for you mate.

[eurosaint]

The losers in the Scottish referendum want a re-run !

The losers in the EU referendum want a re-run !

The losers in the 2109 election want to change the electoral system !

I think I can see a pattern emerging here.....

[hypochondriac]

Tbf I've always said I'd prefer some form of proportional representation but I doubt some on here would be so vociferous about it had Labour just won a majority...

[sadoldgit]

Most of us is Soggy's alter egos.

 

I don’t know what is more depressing. 5 more years of Tory policies or 5 more years of Wes’s inane posts.

[sadoldgit]

The losers in the Scottish referendum want a re-run !

The losers in the EU referendum want a re-run !

The losers in the 2109 election want to change the electoral system !

I think I can see a pattern emerging here.....

 

We have been discussing electoral reform on here for years.

[Batman]

I don’t know what is more depressing. 5 more years of Tory policies or 5 more years of Wes’s inane posts.

 

just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?

 

Sorry for the arguments I've had with people on here. I'm in a very bad way today and I've been sent home from work early, I can feel my mental health falling away from me and it's a lot to deal with. But I'm very sorry for the arguments I had with people on here, shouldn't have been sweary and aggressive and all that. Sorry

[whelk]

just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?

 

Tbf SOG is never sweary to his credit

[Lighthouse]

I didn't realise we were convening a Royal Commission on Electoral Reform today on this football forum.

 

If you can't actually imagine a proportional system for the UK that doesn't involve slightly less than twelve hundred sodding MPs then I've got nothing for you mate.

 

Okay, so we are halving the number of constituencies then. That's all you had to say, Jesus wept (as you'd put it).

[sadoldgit]

just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?

 

Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.

[OldNick]

I admire your optimism Nick but I don’t share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

 

As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labour’s plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

 

I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20’s and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.

If you truly believe that Corbyns/Labours spending plans would have been good for your kids future you are wrong IMHO. Your children are no doubt brainwashed by your opinions but they should be more optimistic and they will have a bright future if they really want to work to get there. Corbyns plans were a nonsense as they destroy more than they grow.

I didnt like Boris but if he delivers like he promised today,it is a moderate agenda and as he has such a good majority he can take less heed of the ERG

[CB Fry]

Okay, so we are halving the number of constituencies then. That's all you had to say, Jesus wept (as you'd put it).

We get it. You don't understand.

[Sheaf Saint]

I didnt like Boris but if he delivers like he promised today

 

That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?

 

[Batman]

That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?

 

 

just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.

just think about how bad they are...

[Shroppie]

That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?

 

True. Speeches made outside No 10 immediately after an election nearly always talk about uniting the country, but are soon forgotten.

 

I remember Thatcher talking piously about harmony, light and hope. It worked if you were a banker.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Sheaf Saint]

just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.

just think about how bad they are...

 

Oh I get it. The old football cliche of "you can only beat what's in front of you" clearly applies here.

 

I'm just aghast that somebody could even contemplate the thought that Johnson might actually deliver on his promises, given his track record of being such an awful excuse for a human being.

[sadoldgit]

just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.

just think about how bad they are...

 

You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?

[Batman]

You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?

 

doesnt matter does it. he won big

[Weston Super Saint]

You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?

 

He would have done well dribbling into a bib if his competition was Corbyn....

[Batman]

Oh I get it. The old football cliche of "you can only beat what's in front of you" clearly applies here.

 

I'm just aghast that somebody could even contemplate the thought that Johnson might actually deliver on his promises, given his track record of being such an awful excuse for a human being.

 

its because of your political blindness, you can't see how incredibly toxic the Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbot brand is.

So much so, the working class areas around the country have deserted them for this awful person you mention.

[shurlock]

He would have done well dribbling into a bib if his competition was Corbyn....

 

My Jewish mates agree with this.

[eurosaint]

We have been discussing electoral reform on here for years.

 

Im not surprised, you lost the last four elections:)

[Lord Duckhunter]

Almost as glorious as last night, is the lefties and pinkos on here.

 

The "moderates" have been routed, and the Corbyn lefties have been humiliated. The greatest things about it is that Swinson and her band of "moderates" enabled it. They had Boris in a cage, they could of kept him there, inflicting defeat after defeat, taking control of the commons and ensuring he missed deadline after deadline. Instead their ego's got the better of them. The top political operators of my lifetime, Campbell, Blair and Mandleson knew what would happen, but these political pygmies didn't.

 

#swampisdrained