General Election 2019 - Post Match Reaction

[Wes Tender]

Brexit is going ahead (as I’ve always said it should) but we don’t know if there is a majority for it in the country. Your lot has repeatedly bottled the chance to get a direct, unambiguous answer on the question. And for good reason given that second referendum/remain parties won an overwhelming share of the vote. FACT.

 

 

How are you Gavyn, this bright and sunny morning? Is that the best argument you can advance? Feebly clutching at straws and whining about how unfair it all was that the parties who deigned to ignore the referendum vote were punished by voters in their constituencies. For somebody who is always right, you seem to have miscalculated rather badly this time. Just as a matter of interest, who did you vote for?

[sadoldgit]

Being back in the UK for this election has been fascinating. The parallels with the USA's last election are scarily similar.

 

Chattering classes in the 'bubble' (London/DC) being essentially condescending to the wider public by indicating only they know best, disaffected voters in working class areas with little to no hope voting for change. Add in the media luvvies ramming their high minded opinions down peoples throats while living it up with their massive salaries and the snowflakes on social media believing social media is the be all and end all (hint: people gravitate to like minded people so these little bubbles are nothing more than that).

 

As in the US the silent majority took their revenge at the polls.

 

And whether you like him or loathe him Cummings ran a fantastic campaign (albeit against 2 of the biggest losers imaginable).

 

Democracy wins.

 

And we end up with Trump and Johnson.

[norwaysaint]

I’m afraid that’s what you get when you blatantly defy the will of the people !

 

You mean about Brexit? Well, I think the 52% in favour of Brexit were pretty well represented, so it's not exactly an awful thing to say you'll stand for 48% of the country, that's a group that are going to want some representation and it's not undemocratic to say that they are the people you want to stand for. It's not as if they ever expected to be targeting a majority.

[Wes Tender]

This post, along with all of your others, shows just how blinkered you are. If you can’t see how divided the country is you clearly do not leave your front door every day.

 

I wish that I had your clarity of thought and understanding of how you think the country ought to have voted if they weren't blinkered thickos who don't get out enough.

[hypochondriac]

This post, along with all of your others, shows just how blinkered you are. If you can’t see how divided the country is you clearly do not leave your front door every day.

It's the height of hilarity that you of all people would accuse someone of being blinkered considering how you've been acting throughout the entirety of this election campaign. Pipe down, get some self reflection and get out of your social media echo chamber because you clearly aren't as smart as you think you are. You've been dealt a crushing defeat, learn to deal with it.

[RedArmy]

Has anybody added up all the remain party votes yet? Did they win again?

[shurlock]

How are you Gavyn, this bright and sunny morning? Is that the best argument you can advance? Feebly clutching at straws and whining about how unfair it all was that the parties who deigned to ignore the referendum vote were punished by voters in their constituencies. For somebody who is always right, you seem to have miscalculated rather badly this time. Just as a matter of interest, who did you vote for?

 

It’s just an observation as John Curtice and other commentators pointed out. So much for the idiosyncrasies of FPTP and an election that inevitably mixed myriad other issues because Brexiters didn’t have the bottle to put the question directly back to the people. Anyway it’s all moot now (as it has been since 2016). I voted tactically Les because I have no real party allegiances. I’m fine. Someone as skilled and mobile as me has always been fine pal. I’m just perplexed by the s**tshow that’s about to come, though on one level oddly upbeat as there is no more hiding place for the Brexiters to deliver. And if you (and other chumps) can read, I’ve always been more focused on the costs and trade-offs of Brexit, not the politics per se. In the end, reality always wins.

Edited 13 December, 2019 by shurlock

[sadoldgit]

You get what you vote for. Theresa May herself said not that long ago that the Tories were in danger of turning into the Nasty Party and that is exactly what has happened. By draining the swamp as Duckie keeps saying, all of the reasonable stuff has gone and we are now left with a few fat toads. You only have to look at the reaction by the rabid right on here to see why a Tory landslide was feared.

[sadoldgit]

I wish that I had your clarity of thought and understanding of how you think the country ought to have voted if they weren't blinkered thickos who don't get out enough.

 

If you want to describe yourself as a blinkered thicko don’t let me stop you. If you can’t see how divided the country is that is your problem.

[eurosaint]

The Will of the People ? 30% of the electorate voted for Boris.

 

43.6%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results

[hypochondriac]

If you want to describe yourself as a blinkered thicko don’t let me stop you. If you can’t see how divided the country is that is your problem.

Cheer up. #classicdom

[Sheaf Saint]

43.6%

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2019/results

 

The combined total of the Tories and Brexit party vote share was 45.6%

 

The combined total of the Labour, LD, SNP and Green vote share was 50.3%

 

FPTP really does f*cking suck, doesn't it.

[sadoldgit]

The combined total of the Tories and Brexit party vote share was 45.6%

 

The combined total of the Labour, LD, SNP and Green vote share was 50.3%

 

FPTP really does f*cking suck, doesn't it.

 

So much for “the will of the people.”

[Shroppie]

The combined total of the Tories and Brexit party vote share was 45.6%

 

The combined total of the Labour, LD, SNP and Green vote share was 50.3%

 

FPTP really does f*cking suck, doesn't it.

Yes. And the Tories knew that which is why they were desperate to have an election and avoid another referendum. To say this election demonstrates that the will of the people is clearly Leave simply isn't correct. The country is just as split as it was a month ago.

 

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[Lighthouse]

The combined total of the Tories and Brexit party vote share was 45.6%

 

The combined total of the Labour, LD, SNP and Green vote share was 50.3%

 

FPTP really does f*cking suck, doesn't it.

 

I don’t get your point. It was an election, not an EU ref.

[RedArmy]

Yes. And the Tories knew that which is why they were desperate to have an election and avoid another referendum. To say this election demonstrates that the will of the people is clearly Leave simply isn't correct. The country is just as split as it was a month ago.

 

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Good grief, give it up man.

[Sheaf Saint]

I don’t get your point. It was an election, not an EU ref.

 

A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

 

The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.

[Wes Tender]

Yes. And the Tories knew that which is why they were desperate to have an election and avoid another referendum. To say this election demonstrates that the will of the people is clearly Leave simply isn't correct. The country is just as split as it was a month ago.

 

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You're obviously a bit tired this morning, so your grey matter isn't functioning properly. You make the very elementary mistake of assuming that if a party was either pro-leave or pro-remain, then all of its voters would be too. Just as there are Conservative voters who voted to remain in the EU, there are also Labour, Lib Dumb, Greens, SNP, Plaid voters who were for leave. Brexit Party voters are the only ones you can exclude realistically. HTH

[Shroppie]

A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

 

The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.

This is my point. Johnson saying Brexit is the "unarguable decision of the British people" on the basis of winning an election isn't true.

 

But Brexit will now happen. Just hope for a trade deal.

 

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[Wes Tender]

If you want to describe yourself as a blinkered thicko don’t let me stop you. If you can’t see how divided the country is that is your problem.

 

Self-deprecating irony is totally lost on you, isn't it? I'm poking fun at you for your ridiculous whining assertion that a firm mandate for pushing Brexit through is more divisive than a hung parliament renegotiating the whole withdrawal treaty with two further referendums would be, even before the original referendum decision had been honoured three and a half to four and a half years after the event

[Shroppie]

You're obviously a bit tired this morning, so your grey matter isn't functioning properly. You make the very elementary mistake of assuming that if a party was either pro-leave or pro-remain, then all of its voters would be too. Just as there are Conservative voters who voted to remain in the EU, there are also Labour, Lib Dumb, Greens, SNP, Plaid voters who were for leave. Brexit Party voters are the only ones you can exclude realistically. HTH

I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

 

But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

 

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[Batman]

I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

 

But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

 

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The pro brexit question keeps winning the argument when the public have a say.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

Anyway, it was obvious that Bojo would comfortably be PM this morning. Hung parliament my arse

[shurlock]

I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

 

But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

 

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Indeed. Les doesn’t realise he’s undermined his own argument and shown why only a second referendum can gauge true sentiment on Brexit. Anyway it’s all moot for now. The gift that keeps on giving and there will be plenty more of that in 2020

[Lighthouse]

A (very slim, admittedly) majority of the electorate voted for parties backing a 2nd ref. But FPTP means we have ended up with a huge parliamentary majority for a party pushing for a hard Brexit.

 

The notion that they are carrying out 'the will of the people' is false.

 

That’s based on the assumption that EVERYONE who voted, did so in accordance with Brexit and nothing else. I’ll bet there were plenty of Labour votes in northern areas, from people who are predominantly leave voting. People for whom a Corbyn government and winning a second ref. Seemed like the best option.

[shurlock]

I have Jewish mates who voted Remain but ended up siding with Johnson because of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

[eurosaint]

Just for the record my ‘will of the people’ comment was directed purely at the Lib Dem’s for denying the referendum result !

I did not say that it applied to this election !

[Sheaf Saint]

That’s based on the assumption that EVERYONE who voted, did so in accordance with Brexit and nothing else. I’ll bet there were plenty of Labour votes in northern areas, from people who are predominantly leave voting. People for whom a Corbyn government and winning a second ref. Seemed like the best option.

 

No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

 

The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.

[hypochondriac]

No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

 

The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.

We don't need it confirmed, it was decisive the first time and only those who lost want another go at it.

[Sheaf Saint]

We don't need it confirmed, it was decisive the first time and only those who lost want another go at it.

 

Simply not true.

 

In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.

[shurlock]

Simply not true.

 

In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.

 

Of course there are likes of Hypo who are badly informed but would still vote Leave.

[hypochondriac]

Simply not true.

 

In the last 3.5 years I've seen and spoken to plenty of people who voted leave but have now changed their minds because we were so badly informed in 2016.

I haven't, I think even if that is true its a very small number. I have remainder friends who think the right and democratic thing to do is to honour the result of the original referendum. One of them voted Conservative despite voting to remain because he believes that democracy is more important

[Lighthouse]

No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

 

The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.

 

I wouldn’t doubt any of that but it isn’t what you said. You’ve lumped together completely different parties in a GE, based purely on what you regard as the default positions of each party on Brexit, and used that to criticise FPTP.

 

The Tories have the second biggest vote percentage since 1979 I believe, only 1% behind Labour’s landslide in ‘97. If that doesn’t give them the right to govern I don’t know what does.

[hypochondriac]

Of course there are likes of Hypo who are badly informed but would still vote Leave.

You still don't understand. I think some of you never will.

[Sheaf Saint]

I wouldn’t doubt any of that but it isn’t what you said. You’ve lumped together completely different parties in a GE, based purely on what you regard as the default positions of each party on Brexit, and used that to criticise FPTP.

 

The Tories have the second biggest vote percentage since 1979 I believe, only 1% behind Labour’s landslide in ‘97. If that doesn’t give them the right to govern I don’t know what does.

 

They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.

[Trader]

#stillwhining

[RedArmy]

They got 43% of the vote, but have ended up with 56% of the seats in parliament. This means that even accounting for a handful of rebels in the party, they can push through whatever legislation they want without needing to rely on support from other parties. The net result of this is that over 50% of the electorate effectively have no representation in parliament.

In 2001 Labour got 40% of the vote and 63% of the seats. Which enabled them to take us into an illegal war.

 

Everybody knows the system but only complain when it’s gone against what they wanted.

[Kingsland Codger]

In an unexpected development I have been linguistically enriched. During an interview yesterday evening, Jess Phillips referred to “a listicle”. I have never heard this word before and although I suspect I shall not use it myself, I am pleased to have stumbled across it.

[Wes Tender]

It’s just an observation as John Curtice and other commentators pointed out. So much for the idiosyncrasies of FPTP and an election that inevitably mixed myriad other issues because Brexiters didn’t have the bottle to put the question directly back to the people. Anyway it’s all moot now (as it has been since 2016). I voted tactically Les because I have no real party allegiances. I’m fine. Someone as skilled and mobile as me has always been fine pal. I’m just perplexed by the s**tshow that’s about to come, though on one level oddly upbeat as there is no more hiding place for the Brexiters to deliver. And if you (and other chumps) can read, I’ve always been more focused on the costs and trade-offs of Brexit, not the politics per se. In the end, reality always wins.

 

You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

 

As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.

[Wes Tender]

I think you're the tired and confused one. I didn't say that at all. Just that, because the Tories have won a big majority, it doesn't mean there is an equally big majority for Brexit.

 

But it was a clear and successful tactic to go down the election rather than confirmatory referendum route.

 

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You're tying yourself in knots. You did say precisely that. So you accept that despite a party adopting a particular position on Brexit, that a percentage of their voters adopt the opposite stance and therefore cannot be included in some hypothetical Party vote percentage for or against Brexit? I''ll still allow you the excuse that you might be tired.

[Sheaf Saint]

[hypochondriac]

Amazing listening to some of the Corbynistas explaining away this historic loss as solely down to brexit and the media. They just don't get it, they will never admit the problems with corbyn and their approach. I'm not sure how Labour is going to be able to get rid of these people.

[Shroppie]

No doubt, but there is simply no way of knowing. There were probably a lot of people who voted remain but still went with the Tories this time round because they could never bring themselves to vote for anyone else.

 

The point is that this election result doesn't prove that Brexit is still the will of the people. Only a second ref can confirm that, but it's clearly not going to happen now.

A second referendum would have been dangerous for Johnson as it would have been decided on the Brexit issue alone. A major factor in the GE win was the campaign against Corbyn who didn't have the support of many in his own party and was easily portrayed as unfit.

 

Excluding other parties from debates was also critical as it reinforced the idea of a binary choice.

 

The Tories won on two tactics. Brexit weariness - we can make it go away, never mind the detail; and the demonisation of Corbyn - stop him at all costs, and you can only do that by voting Tory.

 

It worked.

 

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[aintforever]

The choice at this election was between leaving the EU and maybe staying in, maybe leaving with a far left loony in charge, the idea that it is an accurate gauge on the public’s view of Brexit is just nonsense. There would have been plenty of remainers who voted Tory for a whole load of reasons, mainly their manic spending plans.

 

Labours policy on Brexit was just a shambles, they deserved to have the arse ripped out their vote. A second refurendum makes sense but it would have had to have been Boris’ deal vs remain to have any legitimacy.

[Lighthouse]

*big photo*

 

So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

[Shroppie]

You're tying yourself in knots. You did say precisely that. So you accept that despite a party adopting a particular position on Brexit, that a percentage of their voters adopt the opposite stance and therefore cannot be included in some hypothetical Party vote percentage for or against Brexit? I''ll still allow you the excuse that you might be tired.

Oh dear. Maths isn't your strong point, is it.

 

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[aintforever]

So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

 

 

A Parliament that actually represents the vote share does make sense.

[shurlock]

You just can't accept that it was undemocratic to have a second/third referendum before the result of the last one had been enacted, can you? The blame for the massive Labour defeat is split between those who think Corbyn was to blame for it, or whether Labour voters in Leave voting seats felt betrayed by their remoaner MPs. You're going to come into some serious ridicule if you pursue the line that Brexiteers didn't have the bottle to put the question to the electorate. The question had been put, had been answered and had been ignored, hence the repercussions yesterday.

 

As it's all moot now, kindly stop bleating about it. As you say, reality always wins. Today is the reality of the repercussions of the last three and a half years, and I'm happy for you that you are lucky enough to take an "I'm alright Jack, blow you" attitude towards it.

 

I’ve repeatedly said I’m deeply ambivalent about a second referendum per the likes of Rory Stewart. I’m simply pointing out that the sweeping inferences drawn from the GE result about support for Brexit are hogwash and there’s only one way to test that support. Alas you agree with me, so we can park that one.

 

I think you’ve confused even yourself with your last sentence. Self-interest isn’t why I think Brexit, as it’s been sold, is a ridiculous idea. If you think that, you’ve obviously not read or understood any of my posts over the past three years despite your manic desire to respond to them

[Shroppie]

So what you're basically saying is you'd rather have a hung parliament at every election?

I certainly would. It's the only way to stop wild swings between extreme policies.

 

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[CB Fry]

Yes that looks rather too simplistic.

 

Whatever a UK PR system would be it definitely would not be as basic as all votes for the whole nation divided into exactly proportional seats.

 

Areas still need MPs that represent their opinions and MPs would need a connection to a constituency to reflect the differences in areas.

 

So would be a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups to make it more proportional.

 

Anyway, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

[hypochondriac]

It's a stupid argument to make. If we had proportional representation the votes would have been completely different