Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Survnation last poll before the election. Their last poll in 2017 had the Torys with only a 1 point lead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 9 December, 2019 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2019 But that is what we will get under Johnson, pretty much more of the same. Whether people like Corbyn or not, the Labour policies have to be more palatable than the Tory policies surely? If it is a hung Parliament, a coalition between Labour and the LibDems would seem to offer a better platform to overturn the last decade of austerity. Corbyn cannot be that bad that anyone would want 5 years of Johnson unless they have enjoyed the last 9 years so much they want more of the same. I like the way you have used the phrase "whether people like Corbyn or not" as if it an irrelevance. People not liking Corbyn is one of the major reasons Labour won't win. And his policies scare people because they are an unholy mess and totally un-deliverable. Expecting the electorate to make massive compromises, and facilitating the election of a hard left crank government just because "it cannot be that bad" and "at least its not the Tories" is arrogant presumption, especially when the Tories are already making huge gains on the opposite argument. People are going to vote Johnson because at least he isn't Corbyn. That's the whole point son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 No. It's possible that under a leader with some guile and charisma the Labour Party could have performed very well at this election. They needed someone with the ability to control the news agenda, articulate the issues in the country and propose a compelling alternative to the British people. Boris is a pretty flaky leader, crumbles under pressure and has faults and inconsistencies that you could drive a bendy bus through. And add to that we've had ten yeads of an incumbent government. It's absolutely infuriating that the opposition hasn't managed to lay a glove on the Conservatives. It could have been a winnable election for Labour but the tragedy for the country and democracy is that the Party were never going to make any ground under that cretin. So no people aren't voting for that list of stuff. Obviously not. Enough normal, hardworking people are voting for the only one of the two they can see being a remotely credible Prime Minister, and one of the two parties that look like they have at least some aptitude in governing. Asking people to vote for Jeremy Corbyn, you might as well ask them to vote for Jimmy Savile. For a centre-left social democrat like me it's something of a gut punch. Just looking forward to Thursday as the beginning of the end of the Corbyn era. Alan Johnson was on the radio the other day and said the left of the party were always telling them that winning an election was easy all you had to do was give the working class people 'stuff' and this gives you an insight into the thinking of the Corbyn machine. They have narrowed down their view but hope that their santa's sack will do the trick. But the reality is you need to build a broader consensus to win. I hope Friday is thd start of a more sensible approach from the Labour party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I like the way you have used the phrase "whether people like Corbyn or not" as if it an irrelevance. People not liking Corbyn is one of the major reasons Labour won't win. And his policies scare people because they are an unholy mess and totally un-deliverable. Expecting the electorate to make massive compromises, and facilitating the election of a hard left crank government just because "it cannot be that bad" and "at least its not the Tories" is arrogant presumption, especially when the Tories are already making huge gains on the opposite argument. People are going to vote Johnson because at least he isn't Corbyn. That's the whole point son. This first part is the main point. Corbyn's public image, whether rightly or wrongly, is a disaster. Labour could now put out an amazing manifesto with great ideas, well worked through that would clearly benefit the nation and could be delivered, but the people would still not vote for them in significant numbers, because "not Corbyn and his labour" has become a central choice for many people. It could be that this is just the result of successful propaganda campaign by the right, but it's worked if it was. Labour will not win the masses over until it's perceived to be a new version of the party. The British people are, at heart, mostly centre right, so the left will always suffer more from a bad image than the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I like the way you have used the phrase "whether people like Corbyn or not" as if it an irrelevance. People not liking Corbyn is one of the major reasons Labour won't win. And his policies scare people because they are an unholy mess and totally un-deliverable. Expecting the electorate to make massive compromises, and facilitating the election of a hard left crank government just because "it cannot be that bad" and "at least its not the Tories" is arrogant presumption, especially when the Tories are already making huge gains on the opposite argument. People are going to vote Johnson because at least he isn't Corbyn. That's the whole point son. No of course it isn’t an irrelevance. But Johnson is hardly Mr Popular either is he?I don’t think anyone ever expects parties to deliver on manifesto promises, but as a statement of intent surely the disadvantaged (i.e. most of us) will be better off with a government that addresses the catastrophic underfunding of this country than one who sees trying to bring things back to the way they were 9 years ago as some kind of huge bonus to us all. The Americans ended up with Trump in part because he wasn’t Hilary Clinton and that hasn’t worked well for them had it? I guess we will find out what this country is made of on Friday morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 No of course it isn’t an irrelevance. But Johnson is hardly Mr Popular either is he?I don’t think anyone ever expects parties to deliver on manifesto promises, but as a statement of intent surely the disadvantaged (i.e. most of us) will be better off with a government that addresses the catastrophic underfunding of this country than one who sees trying to bring things back to the way they were 9 years ago as some kind of huge bonus to us all. The Americans ended up with Trump in part because he wasn’t Hilary Clinton and that hasn’t worked well for them had it? I guess we will find out what this country is made of on Friday morning. You make it sound we live in a desolate wasteland Far from it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 No of course it isn’t an irrelevance. But Johnson is hardly Mr Popular either is he?I don’t think anyone ever expects parties to deliver on manifesto promises, but as a statement of intent surely the disadvantaged (i.e. most of us) will be better off with a government that addresses the catastrophic underfunding of this country than one who sees trying to bring things back to the way they were 9 years ago as some kind of huge bonus to us all. The Americans ended up with Trump in part because he wasn’t Hilary Clinton and that hasn’t worked well for them had it? I guess we will find out what this country is made of on Friday morning.Indeed we will. Let's cross our fingers for a sound rejection of extremist Marxist governments on Friday. I believe that the British people won't let us down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Indeed we will. Let's cross our fingers for a sound rejection of extremist Marxist governments on Friday. I believe that the British people won't let us down. No chance they'll win too many seats, but I think that's mainly a Corbyn personality thing. I wouldn't vote for them until they change. Which policies do you think are "extremist Marxist" though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 You make it sound we live in a desolate wasteland Far from it It might not be a “desolate wasteland” but for a great many people life is very tough (considering we have the 5th biggest economy). As an ex serviceman yourself, doesn’t it bother you to see so many veterans living on the streets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 No chance they'll win too many seats, but I think that's mainly a Corbyn personality thing. I wouldn't vote for them until they change. Which policies do you think are "extremist Marxist" though? I am going more on previous McDonnell speeches and what he's pledged to do if he ever seized power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Jonnyboy have you been taking advice from novara media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Morning campers: Boris continues, yet again, to play a blinder and the City agrees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Morning campers: Boris continues, yet again, to play a blinder and the City agrees... I know nothing about the world of finance and currency, genuinely, but are those tiny time frames and minute degrees the usual frame for measuring the current situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Are you suggesting there aren't less radical policies than what Labour are proposing at this election that wouldn't be popular with the electorate? Is the road labour have gone down, their own choice? Interestingly, when parties and personalities are taken out of the equation, Labour's policies are in fact the most popular with the electorate... https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/survey/results/XdjvNqjuAbZ7fvu5#/total-results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Interestingly, when parties and personalities are taken out of the equation, Labour's policies are in fact the most popular with the electorate... https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/survey/results/XdjvNqjuAbZ7fvu5#/total-results That is interesting and bears out what many have said, that people have so much trouble getting over the image of Corbyn that it no longer matters what labour are actually standing for. The world would be a different place if we voted purely on policies, but it's not going to happen. Politics is basically a game and BJ is better at it than Corbyn, partly because he treats it more like a game too and comes at it with a clear game-plan. I think even if Johnson announced that, yes, he probably will sell off the NHS, but it'll probably be alright, they would still easily be the largest party. It's like Trump, the core followers are way too devoted for negatives to really pull him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guided Missile Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I know nothing about the world of finance and currency, genuinely, but are those tiny time frames and minute degrees the usual frame for measuring the current situation? I forgot to add the headline: Pound hits 31-month high as polling points to Tory victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Hasn't polling always pointed to a Tory victory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Interestingly, when parties and personalities are taken out of the equation, Labour's policies are in fact the most popular with the electorate... https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/survey/results/XdjvNqjuAbZ7fvu5#/total-results But of course they are. Giving people loads of "free" stuff is always going to have more of an appeal than something slightly more realistic as long as you don't think about the implications for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 It might not be a “desolate wasteland” but for a great many people life is very tough (considering we have the 5th biggest economy). As an ex serviceman yourself, doesn’t it bother you to see so many veterans living on the streets?What do you think about that channel 4 focus group thing from the other day about lifelong labour voters who were going to vote tory? Are they heartless b*stards who want babies to die too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 But of course they are. Giving people loads of "free" stuff is always going to have more of an appeal than something slightly more realistic as long as you don't think about the implications for too long. But you're constantly telling us that Labour's manifesto is 'extremist' and unpalatable to most British voters. Yet here you are providing an explanation for why their policies will always be most popular. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Hasn't polling always pointed to a Tory victory? No, in 1997 labour were way out ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 The NHS in 2019 - a 4-year-old with suspected pneumonia, lying in a pile of coats on a hospital floor.... If that is Boris playing a blinder, I'm not looking forward to him operating at a level below his best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Oh my days. This has to be his best performance yet... https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736?s=20 I just cannot fathom how so many people genuinely think this despicable pr!ck is the right man to lead the country forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 And now this as well... https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1203922486968147969 EU migrants have been able to “treat the UK as if it’s part of their own country” for too long, Boris Johnson said yesterday He knows exactly who that quote is aimed at. One one hand he makes a speech about how inequality is essential and the world needs people with low IQs, and then he comes out with this just for those very same people. This man is nothing more than a cvnt. A serial-lying, narcissistic, scheming, elitist cvnt with the moral quality of a cockroach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 The NHS in 2019 - a 4-year-old with suspected pneumonia, lying in a pile of coats on a hospital floor.... If that is Boris playing a blinder, I'm not looking forward to him operating at a level below his best. And yet, that is more palatable than Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbot Who has messed up here? Labour or the thicko’s yo north who never know what they are voting for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 And now this as well... https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1203922486968147969 He knows exactly who that quote is aimed at. One one hand he makes a speech about how inequality is essential and the world needs people with low IQs, and then he comes out with this just for those very same people. This man is nothing more than a cvnt. A serial-lying, narcissistic, scheming, elitist cvnt with the moral quality of a cockroach. I don’t think you should log on Friday. It appears you are getting angry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 But you're constantly telling us that Labour's manifesto is 'extremist' and unpalatable to most British voters. Yet here you are providing an explanation for why their policies will always be most popular. Which is it?I think some of labour's headline policies are u itially popular on a surface level but when you look at the details and think about the consequences, they are clearly extreme. Quite simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Oh my days. This has to be his best performance yet... https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1204018593656180736?s=20 I just cannot fathom how so many people genuinely think this despicable pr!ck is the right man to lead the country forward. Apparently because Jeremy Corbyn is worse. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I don’t think you should log on Friday. It appears you are getting angry Any sane person would get angry about this. I guess you think it is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Apparently because Jeremy Corbyn is worse. Go figure.I guess you think it's the thick electorate. Nothing to do with corbyn or labour at all. And then when Labour try a similar strategy and lose the next election the refrain will be the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I don’t think you should log on Friday. It appears you are getting angry You're too f*cking right I'm angry. I'm angry that British politics has come to this. Quite how any sane, rational person could not be angry about the prospect of such a monumental bellend being elected as PM is beyond me. You yourself even admitted last week that you don't think he is fit to be PM. "But he's not as bad as Corbyn" - I can already tell will be the reply from most. Corbyn has many faults, and if elected I have no doubt his dithering and lack of leadership on many issues would cause serious issues, and his failure to do due diligence on some of the people he has associated himself with in the past would most likely come back to haunt him. But in terms of basic human decency, there is simply no comparison between them. If you offer me a party of incompetents lead by a narcissistic pathological liar with a class superiority complex, or a party of incompetents lead by someone who, despite being naive and probably misguided, has actually proved repeatedly that he has genuine empathy for disadvantaged people, then it is a total no-brainer. People railing against the more 'extreme' elements of the Labour manifesto need to understand that there is no hope of them winning a majority in this election, and the best they can hope for is a hung parliament and a coalition with the LDs and/or SNP. In this scenario, there is not a chance they would ever be able to enact any of their more extreme stuff anyway. That's why I'm more than happy to give them my vote, if it helps to remove the most unscrupulous, malignant and corrupt bunch of party-before-country bottom feeders ever to disgrace the halls of Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 (edited) Boris Johnson vows end to migrants ‘treating Britain as their own’ https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/election-2019-johnson-vows-end-to-migrants-treating-britain-as-their-own-nczv7r97n?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1575855443 Nice red meat for the base. Edited 9 December, 2019 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Any sane person would get angry about this. I guess you think it is ok? Well, I voted for Conservative...... so hope for a Tory win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 You're too f*cking right I'm angry. I'm angry that British politics has come to this. Quite how any sane, rational person could not be angry about the prospect of such a monumental bellend being elected as PM is beyond me. You yourself even admitted last week that you don't think he is fit to be PM. "But he's not as bad as Corbyn" - I can already tell will be the reply from most. Corbyn has many faults, and if elected I have no doubt his dithering and lack of leadership on many issues would cause serious issues, and his failure to do due diligence on some of the people he has associated himself with in the past would most likely come back to haunt him. But in terms of basic human decency, there is simply no comparison between them. If you offer me a party of incompetents lead by a narcissistic pathological liar with a class superiority complex, or a party of incompetents lead by someone who, despite being naive and probably misguided, has actually proved repeatedly that he has genuine empathy for disadvantaged people, then it is a total no-brainer. People railing against the more 'extreme' elements of the Labour manifesto need to understand that there is no hope of them winning a majority in this election, and the best they can hope for is a hung parliament and a coalition with the LDs and/or SNP. In this scenario, there is not a chance they would ever be able to enact any of their more extreme stuff anyway. That's why I'm more than happy to give them my vote, if it helps to remove the most unscrupulous, malignant and corrupt bunch of party-before-country bottom feeders ever to disgrace the halls of Westminster.I'm angry that Labour have messed up so monumentally at a time when they should be storming to victory and giving the country a viable alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 You're too f*cking right I'm angry. I'm angry that British politics has come to this. Quite how any sane, rational person could not be angry about the prospect of such a monumental bellend being elected as PM is beyond me. You yourself even admitted last week that you don't think he is fit to be PM. "But he's not as bad as Corbyn" - I can already tell will be the reply from most. Corbyn has many faults, and if elected I have no doubt his dithering and lack of leadership on many issues would cause serious issues, and his failure to do due diligence on some of the people he has associated himself with in the past would most likely come back to haunt him. But in terms of basic human decency, there is simply no comparison between them. If you offer me a party of incompetents lead by a narcissistic pathological liar with a class superiority complex, or a party of incompetents lead by someone who, despite being naive and probably misguided, has actually proved repeatedly that he has genuine empathy for disadvantaged people, then it is a total no-brainer. People railing against the more 'extreme' elements of the Labour manifesto need to understand that there is no hope of them winning a majority in this election, and the best they can hope for is a hung parliament and a coalition with the LDs and/or SNP. In this scenario, there is not a chance they would ever be able to enact any of their more extreme stuff anyway. That's why I'm more than happy to give them my vote, if it helps to remove the most unscrupulous, malignant and corrupt bunch of party-before-country bottom feeders ever to disgrace the halls of Westminster. You don’t get it, so you. I suspect you voted Labour in 2017 and remain in 2016. I guess you don’t have your finger on the pulse as much as you like to think. Stop blaming everyone else and realise / accept that the ideologies of this brand of Labour is just not wanted by the masses. Jesus, you even have the Guardian/Guardian journos publicly saying they won’t vote Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 As the polls come out more in favour of Conservatives, I can sense a greater level of viciousness and anger from some on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 You don’t get it, so you. I suspect you voted Labour in 2017 and remain in 2016. I guess you don’t have your finger on the pulse as much as you like to think. Stop blaming everyone else and realise / accept that the ideologies of this brand of Labour is just not wanted by the masses. Jesus, you even have the Guardian/Guardian journos publicly saying they won’t vote Labour.It seems its the pig thick electorates fault for not loving labour enough, it's the media conspiracy against the Labour Party, its Steve brannon and his populist rhetoric, its the trump effect and Little Englanders wanting to be ruled over by a posh tory. It's all of that in fact other than the modern Labour Party and the people who run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Well, I voted for Conservative...... so hope for a Tory win What would you say it is that most makes you want to vote Conservative? Most of your posts seem to be just trying to put down opposition supporters. It would be good to see a few positive posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 What would you say it is that most makes you want to vote Conservative? Most of your posts seem to be just trying to put down opposition supporters. It would be good to see a few positive posts. Don't you know Batman and Hypo desperately care about having a credible opposition, the plight of jewish people and the health of our democracy. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the only reason they do it. You should cut them some slack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 "But he's not as bad as Corbyn" Unfortunately, whilst that is his only attribute, thanks to our voting system it is all he will need to win. It's 2019 and we have a PM who calls muslim women letterboxes and gays tank-topped bum boys. And we are heading for a no deal Brexit to boot. Labour have failed to provide an electable opposition, the only hope is that this is a wake up call and they sort their **** out. the one positive IMO is that Brexit really now is a 100% Tory Brexit and if it doesn't go well there will be no hiding place for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 What would you say it is that most makes you want to vote Conservative? Most of your posts seem to be just trying to put down opposition supporters. It would be good to see a few positive posts.I can't speak for someone else but I'd personally find it difficult to make a case that is too positive for the Conservatives. I'm not. Overly enamoured with Johnson, I think they've buggered up universal credit and I don't think they care much about my business. I am however more ideologically opposed to labour and here's a quick summary why. I don't support big government, I don't want too much state control depriving us of freedoms, I don't like the politics of envy, I think many in Labour have been infected with the disease of identity politics which I despise, I want freedom to criticise religion which Labour opposes with its definition of islamaphobia, I am worried that its manifesto spending commitments are unachievable and would do real damage to the economy leaving the country less prosperous and therefore less able to care for the people that Labour purports to care more about, I think the ideological suggestions from Labour about giving unions back power and encouraging strikes are a really bad idea that will disrupt the economy, I am appalled by some of the stuff I read last week about the very real anti semitism problem, I have a problem with many in labour who hate the nation state and whilst I acknowledge some of the negatives of colonialism, I don't think we should be teaching the evil past of the United Kingdom out of context which semmobgly is what Labour want to introduce. As someone with a daughter, I am concerned by the noises they have made about supporting the gender recognition act which would effectively abolish what a woman is and allow anyone to change the sex on their birth certificate just by saying they, want to. Finally, their policy on brexit is confused and is essentially a way to put a stop to brexit whilst pretending to be democratic about it which I consider to be duplicitous. Sorry I couldn't be more positive but it's not that sort of election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Don't you know Batman and Hypo desperately care about having a credible opposition, the plight of jewish people and the health of our democracy. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the only reason they do it. You should cut them some slack.Well I've put my thoughts in the post above and as I've voted Labour in the past, I'm hardly wedded to the Conservative party for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Well I've put my thoughts in the post above and as I've voted Labour in the past, I'm hardly wedded to the Conservative party for life. Though its not as straightforward as Labour vs. Conservative (or even centre-left vs far left) with Brexit cutting across traditional divides. Would you vote for Labour if it was led by David Miliband on the platform of a second referendum? I somehow doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I have considered voting Tory for the first time, having previously voted Labour or Lib but generally see myself as pretty "centre ground". Mainly it's due to my increasing dislike of "the left" as I see it, in party politics and within wider society. I ask myself whether it is the left that has changed or is it that my position has shifted rightwards, and my views become "more Conservative" as I have aged. I also don't see capitalism as a dirty word and think a low interest, low regulation economy is good for business and for people who want to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Though its not as straightforward as Labour vs. Conservative (or even centre-left vs far left) with Brexit cutting across traditional divides. Would you vote for Labour if it was led by David Miliband on the platform of a second referendum? I somehow doubt it.Probably not because I consider a second referendum to be undemocratic but if brexit were not a factor I could see myself doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I'm angry that Labour have messed up so monumentally at a time when they should be storming to victory and giving the country a viable alternative. Yes, of course. Labour should be doing much better against the most inept government in living memory. No arguments from me in that respect. That's one of the reasons I find myself so exasperated with the current situation, because Johnson should never have been allowed to get even remotely near number 10, let alone in a position where he could/probably will win a GE. Corbyn clearly polarises opinions, and everybody knows that you have to appeal to the centre ground to win a GE. You don’t get it, so you. I suspect you voted Labour in 2017 and remain in 2016. I guess you don’t have your finger on the pulse as much as you like to think. Stop blaming everyone else and realise / accept that the ideologies of this brand of Labour is just not wanted by the masses. Jesus, you even have the Guardian/Guardian journos publicly saying they won’t vote Labour. If you think not having my finger on the pulse means not voting for the side most likely to win then I'll wear that badge with pride. I vote with my conscience, and that conscience tells me that I would sooner shoot myself in the head than ever vote for a cesspit of corruption and elitism, lead by that f*cking imbecile Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 Probably not because I consider a second referendum to be undemocratic but if brexit were not a factor I could see myself doing that. A second referendum is obviously not a great example of democracy but do you really think Boris crowbarring through a no deal Brexit on the back of a threat of a Corbyn government is a better example? Maybe a good example of democracy would be for the PM to actually listen to the concerns of the elected representatives of the people and put a detailed Brexit deal to the electorate to decide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 A second referendum is obviously not a great example of democracy but do you really think Boris crowbarring through a no deal Brexit on the back of a threat of a Corbyn government is a better example? Maybe a good example of democracy would be for the PM to actually listen to the concerns of the elected representatives of the people and put a detailed Brexit deal to the electorate to decide?I really don't think it's helpful to go round and round rehashing the brexit arguments again, I was simply answering the question from shurlock. If brexit were not a factor and there was a decent leader in charge of labour with some sensible policies then I would probably vote for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 I can't speak for someone else but I'd personally find it difficult to make a case that is too positive for the Conservatives. I'm not. Overly enamoured with Johnson, I think they've buggered up universal credit and I don't think they care much about my business. I am however more ideologically opposed to labour and here's a quick summary why. I don't support big government, I don't want too much state control depriving us of freedoms, I don't like the politics of envy, I think many in Labour have been infected with the disease of identity politics which I despise, I want freedom to criticise religion which Labour opposes with its definition of islamaphobia, I am worried that its manifesto spending commitments are unachievable and would do real damage to the economy leaving the country less prosperous and therefore less able to care for the people that Labour purports to care more about, I think the ideological suggestions from Labour about giving unions back power and encouraging strikes are a really bad idea that will disrupt the economy, I am appalled by some of the stuff I read last week about the very real anti semitism problem, I have a problem with many in labour who hate the nation state and whilst I acknowledge some of the negatives of colonialism, I don't think we should be teaching the evil past of the United Kingdom out of context which semmobgly is what Labour want to introduce. As someone with a daughter, I am concerned by the noises they have made about supporting the gender recognition act which would effectively abolish what a woman is and allow anyone to change the sex on their birth certificate just by saying they, want to. Finally, their policy on brexit is confused and is essentially a way to put a stop to brexit whilst pretending to be democratic about it which I consider to be duplicitous. Sorry I couldn't be more positive but it's not that sort of election. This is pretty much the opposite of what I asked about. I've seen you and batman post page after page of anti labour stuff, so I've understood you don't like them. However you both make it clear you are choosing to vote conservative, so I would love to hear what you like about them at the moment. I don't see one good thing you've said about them, but it would be an interesting perspective. We'll take"I don't like labour" as read, so just say what makes the conservatives worth voting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 9 December, 2019 Share Posted 9 December, 2019 The Tory manifesto seems to consist of a) Get Brexit done b) Not be Labour and c) Spend A Few Quid On Public Services To Make It Look Like They Care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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