General Election 2019 - Post Match Reaction

[hypochondriac]

Don’t agree with all of this but it’s pretty clear that many on here couldn’t care less about the Jewish community.

I think in light of what I just posted above, you'd have to have a heart of stone not to care about it. I have good Jewish friends, I'm not surprised they are scared after reading that.

[shurlock]

Gavyn trying vainly to defend the indefensible, totally blinkered to the diametrically, contradictory stance of the girl Swinson. I didn't go into the difference between the economic and political implications between our leaving the EU and Scotland having their independence, I made the point that her opinion was that a second Scottish referendum would cause chaos, but that she ignored the chaos that a 2nd/third referendum in the UK would also cause. Don't you think that a vote to reverse Brexit would cause chaos?

 

Do try and address the point I made, instead of the point you think I ought to have made to suit your response.

 

Which cult do I belong to, Gavyn? The cult of wishing to respect the democratic decision of the referendum? I'm a democrat and proud to support that position. You obviously are not.

 

Perhaps you will be prepared to step up to the plate on her behalf and answer the conundrum I posed to Soggy.

 

You said she is confused. Leaving aside your dubious and disingenuous framing, you may think that “a vote to reverse the referendum result” would cause chaos; but she would argue that the current course the country is on is likely to cause more chaos. You may disagree with that statement (fair enough) but that doesn’t mean it’s confused - except that is you inhabit a blinkered cult that denies the complexity and trade offs of Brexit. Again you’re loose with language and caught with your pants down

Edited 5 December, 2019 by shurlock

[shurlock]

I think in light of what I just posted above, you'd have to have a heart of stone not to care about it. I have good Jewish friends, I'm not surprised they are scared after reading that.

 

And I find all antisemitic behaviour and language offensive, whichever side it occurs on, whether in this country or any other part of the world.

[hypochondriac]

And I find all antisemitic behaviour and language offensive, whichever side it occurs on, whether in this country or any other part of the world.

Of course but I think what's described in that submission is rather more relevant for the UK election than anti semitism in other parts of the world.

 

I think Sheaf Saint would do well to read it including the bits I haven't highlighted before dismissing it all as a media conspiracy. This attitude of denial is addressed in the submission and are viewed as themselves antisemitic since it seeks to minimise the problem or pretend it doesn't exist which "is reported to have filtered into the staff dealing with the antisemitism complaints."

[Wes Tender]

You said she is confused. Leaving aside your dubious and disingenuous framing, you may think that “a vote to reverse the referendum result” would cause chaos; but she would argue that the current course the country is on is likely to cause more chaos. You may disagree with that statement (fair enough) but that doesn’t mean it’s confused - except that is you inhabit a blinkered cult that denies the complexity and trade offs of Brexit. Again you’re loose with language and caught with your pants down

 

I think that it's perfectly reasonable to label the girl Swinson as confused if she espouses the opinion that another Scottish referendum is a bad idea because of the chaos it would cause, whilst ignoring the chaos that another referendum on EU would cause before the last one had even been enacted. Her thought processes are inconsistent, therefore confused.

 

Thanks for defining your definition of the cult you believe I inhabit. No doubt you would happily label all Brexiteers "cultists" for the same reason. You're the epitome of the archetypal arrogant remoaner, a member of your very own cult, those who seek to condemn all those who voted to leave the failing, sclerotic EU as stupid cretins.

 

I note that you sidestepped the invitation to express your opinion on what the girl Swinson should do if the price of another UK referendum under the Marxist was conditional on the SNP being allowed another Scottish referendum

[norwaysaint]

So she admitted to bad judgement, not the best place to be to gain confidence.

That's such a strange way of looking at things. They've all made plenty of errors of judgement. They know it and we know it. Failing to recognise your mistakes is just like saying you'll make them again. Saying something was wrong is far better. Your comment encapsulates so much that is wrong in politics. The idea that arrogance and blindly ploughing along with bad ideas shows some kind of strength, whereas noting good and bad results is somehow weak.

[sadoldgit]

A week to go. This has not been as arduous as I thought. Last time I had vast quantities a political garbage on my phone every day. I have removed the Mail and Express from my newsfeed so that has helped. There has also been a lot less Tory propaganda appearing on my FB page, probably because I have blocked a lot of Tories! We had a long chat about how we were going to vote last night. Mrs SOG is going to stick with the LibDems. I am stick stuck between Labour and the LibDems. I am leaning towards Labour as they will get rid of the dreadful Universal Credit system but the LibDems appeal due to their unambiguous position on Brexit. The waters are muddied re a tactical vote. The Tory is strongly behind a huge new Market Town development nearby which is very unpopular as there will be a massive effect on the local health system and infrastructure. Labour and LibDems both seem to be against it so they both could hover up votes but that will split Tory opposition. I can live with a Labour government or a Labour/LibDem coalition. I can’t think of anything more depressing of 5 more years of Tory rule.

[hypochondriac]

A week to go. This hasn't been as bad as I thought. Last time I had loads of garbage on my phone. I have removed The Guardian and The Mirror from my feed which has definitely helped. There has been a lot less Marxist propaganda appearing on my FB page, probably because I have blocked a lot of people I disagree with politically! Can't have differences of opinion clogging up my safe space. We had a long chat about how we were going to vote last night. My wife doesn't give a toss about politics so she will either not vote or just vote the same way that I do. I want to make a big show about who I'm voting for and keep a pretence that I'm genuinely undecided and a "floating voter" so I'll definitely vote Tory but I won't admit that at the start of this conversation, I just want to make clear that my mind definitely isn't made up and hasn't been for weeks. The Conservatives are a bit sh*t to be honest but then on the other side you have a party that wants to demonise rich people, redistribute their wealth and who is feared by a majority of Jews. I can live with a Conservative majority. I can't think of anything more depressing than even a month of economic policy spearheaded by John McDonnell.

[shurlock]

Edited 5 December, 2019 by shurlock

[OldNick]

I can’t think of anything more depressing of 5 more years of Tory rule.

How about reading your posts lol......only teasing

[sadoldgit]

How about reading your posts lol......only teasing

 

If you think reading them is bad, you should try writing them!

[sadoldgit]

 

Must have been a difficult choice between Philip and Andrew.

[sadoldgit]

That's such a strange way of looking at things. They've all made plenty of errors of judgement. They know it and we know it. Failing to recognise your mistakes is just like saying you'll make them again. Saying something was wrong is far better. Your comment encapsulates so much that is wrong in politics. The idea that arrogance and blindly ploughing along with bad ideas shows some kind of strength, whereas noting good and bad results is somehow weak.

 

At least Swinson came across as a human being rather than a political robot spewing out sound bites and worn out cliches. We could do with more like that.

[whelk]

 

By all accounts Willoughby is an obnoxious diva.

[hypochondriac]

By all accounts Willoughby is an obnoxious diva.

Whose accounts? I know an itv showrunner who said she's alright. Has nothing but terrible things to say about James cordon though.

[badgerx16]

Government policy looks like barring Huawei from future UK infrastructure projects, whilst BoJo uses one of their mobile phones.

[Batman]

[whelk]

 

Labour should just play that as their party political broadcast

Edited 5 December, 2019 by whelk

[Jonnyboy]

A week to go. This hasn't been as bad as I thought. Last time I had loads of garbage on my phone. I have removed The Guardian and The Mirror from my feed which has definitely helped. There has been a lot less Marxist propaganda appearing on my FB page, probably because I have blocked a lot of people I disagree with politically! Can't have differences of opinion clogging up my safe space. We had a long chat about how we were going to vote last night. My wife doesn't give a toss about politics so she will either not vote or just vote the same way that I do. I want to make a big show about who I'm voting for and keep a pretence that I'm genuinely undecided and a "floating voter" so I'll definitely vote Tory but I won't admit that at the start of this conversation, I just want to make clear that my mind definitely isn't made up and hasn't been for weeks. The Conservatives are a bit sh*t to be honest but then on the other side you have a party that wants to demonise rich people, redistribute their wealth and who is feared by a majority of Jews. I can live with a Conservative majority. I can't think of anything more depressing than even a month of economic policy spearheaded by John McDonnell.

 

But... But... You're politically neutral.

 

Edit - I see now, it was supposed to be satirical. Unfortunately based off hundreds of posts it's highly likely to be spot on imo.

Edited 5 December, 2019 by Jonnyboy

[whelk]

But... But... You're politically neutral.

 

He never used to be so Partisan. I wonder what happened?

[Jonnyboy]

And yet all these ex Labour MPs wouldn't agree with you. So either they are all lying and it's some sort of conspiracy, or they are telling the truth and they genuinely are worried about rising levels of anti-semitism in the Labour Party. I'd be inclined to believe them myself over a hard left corbyn fanatic like Michael rosen.

 

Quite amusingly ironic that you deride ideas of conspiracy from a cabal of bitter right-wing ex-Labour MPs but imply that the ex Children's Laureate (not a good enough character reference for you) is somehow part of an extreme left antisemitic conspiracy reaching through hundreds of thousands of everyday Labour Party members including the party leader who are now essentially in favour of building gas chambers in every city.

 

I know which I believe.

[whelk]

Whose accounts? I know an itv showrunner who said she's alright. Has nothing but terrible things to say about James cordon though.

 

Fair enough and probably wrong term. Someone once siad to me about her. Their account really

[hypochondriac]

Quite amusingly ironic that you deride ideas of conspiracy from a cabal of bitter right-wing ex-Labour MPs but imply that the ex Children's Laureate (not a good enough character reference for you) is somehow part of an extreme left antisemitic conspiracy reaching through hundreds of thousands of everyday Labour Party members including the party leader who are now essentially in favour of building gas chambers in every city.

 

I know which I believe.

I know which a majority of the public believe.

 

[hypochondriac]

But... But... You're politically neutral.

 

Edit - I see now, it was supposed to be satirical. Unfortunately based off hundreds of posts it's highly likely to be spot on imo.

Well at least you edited it.

[hypochondriac]

But but Michael Rosen told us it's just a load of Jews angry at Ed Miliband this can't be true!

[Jonnyboy]

I know which a majority of the public believe.

 

 

All those individual points can be dealt with in great depth, it's clear that JC isn't a fan of the expansionist behaviour of the state of Israel,.and millions of the public agree with him.

[hypochondriac]

All those individual points can be dealt with in great depth, it's clear that JC isn't a fan of the expansionist behaviour of the state of Israel,.and millions of the public agree with him.

Did you read the bit where they were being abused simply for being Jewish and nothing to do with their opinion on Israel?

[Jonnyboy]

Did you read the bit where they were being abused simply for being Jewish and nothing to do with their opinion on Israel?

 

*If* true, people saying these sorts of things should be kicked out of the party. It's pretty straightforward really. If if there are 50 anti-semite Labour members running around that's still only 0.01% of the membership. Obviously 0% would be preferable. I still don't think it's a reason to not vote for Corbyn which is what the majority media and ex-MPs want.

[aintforever]

I know which a majority of the public believe.

 

 

Not sure any of those makes him an anti-Semite. He’s dealt with anti-semitism in his party badly and has associated with a lot of dodgy people because of his anti Israeli stance, but that’s about it.

 

I work with one of these hard left anti capitalist types, he is not in the slightest bit racist but has a similar dislike for Israel and mistrust of the US and bankers that make him believe all sorts of conspiracies.

[Jonnyboy]

Did you read the bit where they were being abused simply for being Jewish and nothing to do with their opinion on Israel?

 

I suggest you watch all of this documentary and come back to us: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lobby_(TV_series)

[hypochondriac]

*If* true, people saying these sorts of things should be kicked out of the party. It's pretty straightforward really. If if there are 50 anti-semite Labour members running around that's still only 0.01% of the membership. Obviously 0% would be preferable. I still don't think it's a reason to not vote for Corbyn which is what the majority media and ex-MPs want.

Big hmm. Seems you come under the heading of "antisemitism is dismissed at all levels of the party apparatus as a 'smear' or part of a malign campaign to bring Mr corbyn down."

 

Also seems like your dismissing the testimony of ex MPs as "part of the campaign against Mr Corbyn's leadership." Do you consider it a "political smear campaign"?

 

[hypochondriac]

Not sure any of those makes him an anti-Semite. He’s dealt with anti-semitism in his party badly and has associated with a lot of dodgy people because of his anti Israeli stance, but that’s about it.

 

I work with one of these hard left anti capitalist types, he is not in the slightest bit racist but has a similar dislike for Israel and mistrust of the US and bankers that make him believe all sorts of conspiracies.

Wait there's more:

 

[hypochondriac]

*If* true, people saying these sorts of things should be kicked out of the party. It's pretty straightforward really. If if there are 50 anti-semite Labour members running around that's still only 0.01% of the membership. Obviously 0% would be preferable. I still don't think it's a reason to not vote for Corbyn which is what the majority media and ex-MPs want.

So is it a load of Jews angry at Ed Miliband for supporting Palestine, or is it pages and pages of insults thrown at Jewish people by Labour Party members simply because they are Jewish and independent of their views on Israel?

[aintforever]

So is it a load of Jews angry at Ed Miliband for supporting Palestine, or is it pages and pages of insults thrown at Jewish people by Labour Party members simply because they are Jewish and independent of their views on Israel?

 

Probably both I would say.

[hypochondriac]

Probably both I would say.

Taken in its entirety, this evidence paints a pretty damning picture doesn't it? Particularly the bit about treating those closest to the leader more leniently than others.

[shurlock]

Wait there's more:

 

 

Unfortunately, some of these claims do more harm than good. They make it easy for some to discredit the rest of the submission and what are some very legitimate and serious allegations. 25.2 is a case in point. J.A. Hobson's Imperialism is definitely of its time so full of unsavoury views from a modern perspective (as many historical works are) but the book cannot simply be reduced to them. It is still viewed as an influential piece of work on the dynamics of imperialism and on the syllabus of history courses up and down the country.

Edited 6 December, 2019 by shurlock

[aintforever]

Taken in its entirety, this evidence paints a pretty damning picture doesn't it? Particularly the bit about treating those closest to the leader more leniently than others.

 

Corbyn has handled the whole thing terribly, he shouldn’t be anywhere near leader of the party because he’s always going to have this baggage. I think you need rocks in your head to think he hates people based on the colour of their skin though.

[hypochondriac]

Frankly, some of these claims do more harm than good. They make it easy for some to discredit the rest of the submission and what are some very legitimate and serious allegations. 25.2 is a case in point. J.A. Hobson's Imperialism is definitely of its time but is viewed as a serious piece of work and is taught up and down the country in history courses.

As you say, there are very serious and legitimate allegations. I think it's reasonable to highlight all allegations including more tenuous links. Taken on its own its nothing, but together with everything else, at the very least it's incredibly bad judgement to consistently be linked to our praising people who have said antisemitic things. I don't think corbyn is personally antisemitic but I do think he has been tolerant of antisemitism and this document basically proves it.

[hypochondriac]

Corbyn has handled the whole thing terribly, he shouldn’t be anywhere near leader of the party because he’s always going to have this baggage. I think you need rocks in your head to think he hates people based on the colour of their skin though.

He has tolerated anti semitism in the Labour party, that much is clear and its also clear from those submissions that Labour has a big problem with antisemitism in the party and it's a lot bigger than some have claimed in the past. Edited 5 December, 2019 by hypochondriac

[Jonnyboy]

One week to the election peeps, stay focused

 

[shurlock]

A bit wet but Ed Davey would have been a much better leader of the Lib Dems than Jo Swinson.

[CB Fry]

One week to the election peeps, stay focused

 

Bit late when the likes of you has been telling anyone that isn't a Canary-reading, Michael Rosen supporting Owen Jones fan-boy to "fu ck off and join the Tories" for the last three years.

[Guided Missile]

One week to the election peeps, stay focused

 

 

Apart from our Jewish friends, who buy a ticket and get thrown off at the first stop...

[Shroppie]

He has tolerated anti semitism in the Labour party, that much is clear and its also clear from those submissions that Labour has a big problem with antisemitism in the party and it's a lot bigger than some have claimed in the past.

But the four Tory candidates accused of Islamaphobia are getting the full support of Johnson and his ministers. Thought they said they had zero tolerance and would investigate any accusations thoroughly?

 

Unless they're candidates in marginal seats, of course

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Shroppie]

In the light of Andrew Neil's challenge I'm predicting a Johnson YouTube release today giving jokey, simplistic soundbites answers to the questions (or to be more accurate, soundbites that mean nothing and are not answers) so that he can claim to have replied without actually having to face the grilling.

 

He clearly will not do the interview. He can't answer questions, doesn't know the detail of his own manifesto, bumbles ridiculously and cannot afford to be exposed. What a mess. How can anyone take him seriously?

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[whelk]

I am quite concerned about the safety of Corbyn and Johnson tonight in Maidstone

[whelk]

In the light of Andrew Neil's challenge I'm predicting a Johnson YouTube release today giving jokey, simplistic soundbites answers to the questions (or to be more accurate, soundbites that mean nothing and are not answers) so that he can claim to have replied without actually having to face the grilling.

 

He clearly will not do the interview. He can't answer questions, doesn't know the detail of his own manifesto, bumbles ridiculously and cannot afford to be exposed. What a mess. How can anyone take him seriously?

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

They are too busy discussing Jewish issues.

I would like to think many would see that Neil call out. BBC should have the balls to saturate but they won’t of course. Too busy inviting Farage’s view on everything

[badgerx16]

In the light of Andrew Neil's challenge I'm predicting a Johnson YouTube release today giving jokey, simplistic soundbites answers to the questions (or to be more accurate, soundbites that mean nothing and are not answers) so that he can claim to have replied without actually having to face the grilling.

 

He clearly will not do the interview. He can't answer questions, doesn't know the detail of his own manifesto, bumbles ridiculously and cannot afford to be exposed. What a mess. How can anyone take him seriously?

Because he promises he will "get Brexit done" and that is all that matters, as it is the answer to every question he is asked, and the solution to every problem the country is facing.

[whelk]

Because he promises he will "get Brexit done" and that is all that matters, as it is the answer to every question he is asked, and the solution to every problem the country is facing.

 

What I want to know is it ready for the oven?

[Shroppie]

What I want to know is it ready for the oven?

I'm not claiming this as original but his "oven-ready Brexit" is a turkey that's already been reheated twice and is unfit for human consumption. Will make anyone partaking very ill and, once Johnson has sorted the NHS, also very much poorer.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk