Ralph Hasenhuttl

[TWar]

45 minutes ago, SKD said:

The only one he’s really improved is JWP.

Vestergaard - has been great this season, but last season, more of what we’d seen before in a saints shirt, however he played well in Germany, so bit of a stretch giving Ralph the credit for that one. 

Ings - I mean he played for Liverpool and was liked by Klopp, but naturally couldn’t play ahead of their front 3. Nothing’s changed on this front other than a good 6-12 months with an injury. Ings good run of form and goals coincided with our good run of form and goals. 

Armstrong - always been a good player for us. Struggled a bit for fitness, but certainly always been one of our best even under Hughes. He’s our new Steven Davis just a solid 7-8/10 every week. 

Vestergaard was linked to Leicester last season, Spurs are skint and need cheap players. 
Ings, would just sit on the bench at City and again is a cheap option. 
 

So they’re not all that surprising to be honest. 

Ings played for Liverpool, but not when they were the team they are now, and his career was on the rocks when we signed him. It's very revisionist to say he was quality before that season, most of our fans were very annoyed when he signed, myself included. And after his first season it was a common question to ask if we could get out of our "obligation to buy". Ings has literally never been at the level he was that season under Ralph, even when he got his liverpool move he only got 11 league goals the season before to earn that. This season he should reach that again and that was considered his best season pre-Ralph whereas this is considered a down season for him.

Vestergaard was decent in Germany but so was Werner, Havertz, Keita ect. Lots of players move across and aren't up to it and after two seasons with us Vestergaard looked very much like that, definitely a flop before Ralph. Again basically every fan wrote him off and he was benched for Hoedt and Stephens, now look at him.

And Armstrong was a decent player before Ralph, but started under half of games even in his final season with Celtic, Ralph got him performing at this level where he is undroppable. Also the way Ralph has him playing and his utilization of Armstrong is getting the absolute most out of him, if you look at him for Scotland he looks nowhere near as good as they can't get the quality out of him Ralph can. It's why he is often on the bench for them

Edited 14 April, 2021 by TWar

[SKD]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

Ings played for Liverpool, but not when they were the team they are now, and his career was on the rocks when we signed him. It's very revisionist to say he was quality before that season, most of our fans were very annoyed when he signed, myself included. And after his first season it was a common question to ask if we could get out of our "obligation to buy". Ings has literally never been at the level he was that season under Ralph, even when he got his liverpool move he only got 11 league goals the season before to earn that. This season he should reach that again and that was considered his best season pre-Ralph whereas this is considered a down season for him.

Vestergaard was decent in Germany but so was Werner, Havertz, Keita ect. Lots of players move across and aren't up to it and after two seasons with us Vestergaard looked very much like that, definitely a flop before Ralph. Again basically every fan wrote him off and he was benched for Hoedt and Stephens, now look at him.

And Armstrong was a decent player before Ralph, but started under half of games even in his final season with Celtic, Ralph got him performing at this level where he is undroppable.

Ings, fans were annoyed because of his injury record. The talent was clear and even his very first game for us, you could see his ability. The reason he got a move to Liverpool in the first place was due to his form at Burnley. Just to write him off is daft. 

Also, he only started his good run of form in about November / December. He hardly scored before that. Again, this coincides with our good form... coincidence I wonder... 

Vestergaard, has it crossed your mind that players can take time to adjust to a new league? He showed his ability in Germany, so I repeat, not really credit to Ralph is it. He was also almost sold to a bigger club in Leicester when he wasn’t in the squad. 

Havertz is starting to come good and so will Werner (he’s just had a rough time in front of goal, but his all round contribution has been good) so not sure what your point is with those 2 and if it’s even relevant to the debate? 

Armstong - again, fitness was an issue with him. He was always picking up niggles and struggled to see games out. He’s always been a consistent performer when we could get him on the pitch. 

Out of interest, do you go to watch games? Or do you make judgement from looking at Wikipedia / stats etc. 

[TWar]

16 minutes ago, SKD said:

Ings, fans were annoyed because of his injury record. The talent was clear and even his very first game for us, you could see his ability. The reason he got a move to Liverpool in the first place was due to his form at Burnley. Just to write him off is daft. 

Also, he only started his good run of form in about November / December. He hardly scored before that. Again, this coincides with our good form... coincidence I wonder... 

Vestergaard, has it crossed your mind that players can take time to adjust to a new league? He showed his ability in Germany, so I repeat, not really credit to Ralph is it. He was also almost sold to a bigger club in Leicester when he wasn’t in the squad. 

Havertz is starting to come good and so will Werner (he’s just had a rough time in front of goal, but his all round contribution has been good) so not sure what your point is with those 2 and if it’s even relevant to the debate? 

Armstong - again, fitness was an issue with him. He was always picking up niggles and struggled to see games out. He’s always been a consistent performer when we could get him on the pitch. 

Out of interest, do you go to watch games? Or do you make judgement from looking at Wikipedia / stats etc. 

Ings was signed by Liverpool as they were not that good at the time, he was decent for Burnley but only got 11 goals, it was nothing to write home about compared to the haul Ralph got out of him, this isn't the current "champions of europe" liverpool, this was "just finished 6th, about to finish 8th, managed by Brendon Rogers" liverpool. Klopp might have verbally rated him but he barely started for Klopp, often not making the bench over Origi. We brought him on to a new level even from his Burnley form, he scored double the goals to his next best season so I don't really know how that is arguable.

Also Ings had scored 5 goals in 8 starts before our infamous international break where everything turned around so think you might be wrong on that point, he was one of the few players who was consistent all season, not just after the formation change.

Vestergaard was decent in germany, not superb but decent, he came here and flopped and got dropped for some crap players. Ralph got him playing well.

Armstrong was dropped for Celtic regardless of fitness, same with Scotland, Ralph had him playing well by changing his position.

And yes, I do watch games, I don't go to watch games as there is a pandemic. Before the pandemic I watched a few per season, couldn't see live every week as I don't live in the area anymore but I watch every game, as do most fans. Stats influence my analysis and help not falling victim to confirmation bias but honestly when you become aware of the stats you start to notice more things when you watch the team which you otherwise wouldn't (like Diallo's progressive passing, or KWP excellent 1v1 defending) which you don't if you don't have knowledge of such things and just moan and look for scapegoats.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by TWar

[Saint Garrett]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

All were bench options when he arrived, Vestergaard was being talked about being sold for less than he came for, JWP was struggling as an attacking mid and almost sold to watford, Ings had not scored more than 5 goals in a season for five years, and Armstrong was basically anonymous. Now Vestergaard is being linked with Spurs, JWP is our captain and has been in the last few England squads, Ings scored the 5th most non-pen goals in europe last season, got an england call up, and is being linked to City, and Armstrong is our best attacking midfielder by a good margin. I don't know how much more he could have done to turn these players careers around. If when he turned up I told you Vest would be linked to spurs, Ings to City, and JWP be an england regular I would have been considered crazy, but here it is.

Without a doubt he's improved a lot of our players, there aren't any that have got worse under his watch, other than those who might be getting towards the end of their careers, i.e Bertrand

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Les Reed of course, who else?

He had left by the time Ralph arrived. So it was someone else.

[JustinSFC]

7 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

How would this thread be going if the league results were the same but Arsenal had fielded their first team in the FA Cup and beaten us ?

It would go exactly the same way because he wears a cap like Klopp and he's mates with him.

And pumps his fists a lot.

[TWar]

3 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

Without a doubt he's improved a lot of our players, there aren't any that have got worse under his watch, other than those who might be getting towards the end of their careers, i.e Bertrand

Could say Stephens I guess, but I don't think so. He is definitely a player improver. Romeu has improved a lot too imo.

[badgerx16]

5 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Whatifery 

Then we’d have beaten WBA because the players would have been trying harder.

Possibly

I know it's whatifery, but the semi final seems to be being used as a reason to discount, even excuse, our piss poor league performances over the last 3 months. We have come too close to getting a cup final and relegation.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by badgerx16

[TWar]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I know it's whatifery, but the semi final seems to be being used as a reason to discount, even excuse, our piss poor league performances over the last 3 months. We have come too close to getting a cup final and relegation.

We've never been anywhere near relegation. I got 500/1 odds on relegation in January, you don't get those at any point unless there is basically 0 chance. Betting companies aren't in the business of giving away £15k on a £30 bet if there is any realistic chance. It's a once in a blue moon thing, needs an absolute freak 20 losses in a row run, and that didn't happen and was never really likely to.

[Saint Billy]

Ralph needs funds to improve the squad before the final judgement day. He hasn't exactly been gifted with a good squad to work with or enough funding to make much of a difference. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

We've never been anywhere near relegation. I got 500/1 odds on relegation in January, you don't get those at any point unless there is basically 0 chance. Betting companies aren't in the business of giving away £15k on a £30 bet if there is any realistic chance. It's a once in a blue moon thing, needs an absolute freak 20 losses in a row run, and that didn't happen and was never really likely to.

In January we had only just started our current run of crap performances.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

In January we had only just started our current run of crap performances.

At our lowest point you could still get like 50/1. The point I was making was that there was no chance since about January or that value wouldn't have been available at that point.

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, TWar said:

At our lowest point you could still get like 50/1. The point I was making was that there was no chance since about January or that value wouldn't have been available at that point.

Well there obviously was a chance, however unlikely. On Jan 4th we were 6th on 29 points after beating Liverpool. Since then we have managed to limp to apparent safety, though not yet mathematical, by beating the worst team to have played in the Prem for several seasons, and defying our form and recent history by turning around a 2-0 deficit against Burnley.

[TWar]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Well there obviously was a chance, however unlikely. On Jan 4th we were 6th on 29 points after beating Liverpool. Since then we have managed to limp to apparent safety, though not yet mathematical, by beating the worst team to have played in the Prem for several seasons, and defying our form and recent history by turning around a 2-0 deficit against Burnley.

Honestly I think there is every chance that a team would survive this season if they had 33 points or so, if Fulham continue their ppg they will finish on 32-33 points, West Brom and Sheffield united obviously lower. The worst team in premier league history (Derby County) still managed four points post January, so it was wildly wildly unlikely we were ever close to getting relegated.

Edited 14 April, 2021 by TWar

[CB Fry]

16 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Well there obviously was a chance, however unlikely. On Jan 4th we were 6th on 29 points after beating Liverpool. Since then we have managed to limp to apparent safety, though not yet mathematical, by beating the worst team to have played in the Prem for several seasons, and defying our form and recent history by turning around a 2-0 deficit against Burnley.

The minute we ticked over into 29 points in January we were clearly safe. 

We were never going down from that point. I remember saying stuff at the time like "even if we lose ten in a row we won't go down". I didn't expect to be proven right in that way but there you go.

As someone else said we've had a Crystal Palace like season: rack up the points in half a season then cruise/collapse/stagger over the line. They've done that a few times now, and we've done much the same.

[SKD]

7 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

The minute we ticked over into 29 points in January we were clearly safe. 

We were never going down from that point. I remember saying stuff at the time like "even if we lose ten in a row we won't go down". I didn't expect to be proven right in that way but there you go.

As someone else said we've had a Crystal Palace like season: rack up the points in half a season then cruise/collapse/stagger over the line. They've done that a few times now, and we've done much the same.

It’s been a weird season for us really. Yes we started pretty well in terms of points and league position, which is ultimately all that matters, but if you actually look back, we didn’t really have any ‘great results’ in there. I actually think we were massively overrated early season. 

Other than Chelsea and Liverpool (neither of whom are their former selves), Any time we came up against any real resistance, we were beaten. Everton at home you could argue was a good result, but the others are pretty much results you’d expect to be honest. Ones in which were struggling with now. 

If we pick up any more than 4-6 points in our remaining games I’d be surprised. We could quite easily only get 10 points from the last 3/4’s of the season and stay up. Crazy when put like that. 

[pimpin4rizeal]

Hard to say for a lot of the players IF he actually improved them or was it just that the players actually got more consistent game time that they wasn’t getting before. Bednarek for example was pretty much not playing before Ralph came in so of course  he’s more effective, the likes of Armstrong and vest also didn’t really get consistent runs.

havent seen that much improvement from some of the players signed by him Adams and djenepo etc are not really significantly looking superb all of a sudden..

still winds me up a bit that he got rid of gabbi without giving him any chance whatsoever.. gabbi was a super intelligent player with amazing movement and also a great finisher yet Ralph gives him no chance yet keeps long..

also think gabbi is miles better then che also.

boufal also better then the majority of our number tens bar Armstrong 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Saint Garrett said:

Without a doubt he's improved a lot of our players, there aren't any that have got worse under his watch, other than those who might be getting towards the end of their careers, i.e Bertrand

He didn’t save their careers though, which was the claim. Yet again, more exaggerated claims regarding  Ralph’s record. Its laughable to claim he saved Armstrong’s career, or Danny Ings, the only thing that saved Danny Ings is staying fit. 
 

Stephens is worse under his watch than he was under Puel’s so there’s one. It’s arguable that McCarthy has gone backwards. Has Djenpo trained on, and is Redmond really any better than he always was. 

Edited 14 April, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[Toadhall Saint]

42 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

The minute we ticked over into 29 points in January we were clearly safe. 

We were never going down from that point. I remember saying stuff at the time like "even if we lose ten in a row we won't go down". I didn't expect to be proven right in that way but there you go.

As someone else said we've had a Crystal Palace like season: rack up the points in half a season then cruise/collapse/stagger over the line. They've done that a few times now, and we've done much the same.

Exactly this 👍

[Chris cooper]

Read today on news now that Ralph being linked with Bayern Munich job..I’m still fishing out my Bourbon biscuit from my mug of tea I laughed some much mid dunk it snapped off 😂😂😂

[JustinSFC]

3 hours ago, Chris cooper said:

Read today on news now that Ralph being linked with Bayern Munich job..I’m still fishing out my Bourbon biscuit from my mug of tea I laughed some much mid dunk it snapped off 😂😂😂

He gets linked with that job every time it comes up.

At the fans Q&A with Ralph they made a point of the fact that when we first got linked with Ralph we were told by several prominent people in German football that we would never get him because he'd already turned down Bayern.

Might have been Dortmund I can't remember.

Someone tried to ask who had said that and he got shut off.
 

[Master Bates]

https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/southampton-fc-news/southampton-bayern-munich-interested-in-ralph-hasenhuttl/

[SKD]

6 minutes ago, Master Bates said:

https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/southampton-fc-news/southampton-bayern-munich-interested-in-ralph-hasenhuttl/

If anything sums up hipster / trendy choice, it’s being linked with one of the top jobs in the world after 2 record equalling defeats and 2 wins in 15 games 🤯

He’s effectively being linked to these jobs based on style and formation, despite the fact tactically, he’s very limited. It’s crazy. 

Him going to Bayern would actually probably not be too bad for us, give us a decent bit of compo to replace him rather than holding off and sacking him 10 games into next season. 

It won’t happen though. 

Edited 16 April, 2021 by SKD

[skintsaint]

he has more chance of going back to Leipzig when Bayern steal their manager...

[CB Fry]

Basically a higher profile version of packing Burley off to Scotland.

But in this case there is absolutely no way it would happen.

Previous Bayern managers include Ancellotti (at his peak) and, er, Pep. Or basically the best German manager alive at the time.

Just pointless clickbait because obviously he's going to be on betting lists for it.

[TWar]

1 hour ago, SKD said:

If anything sums up hipster / trendy choice, it’s being linked with one of the top jobs in the world after 2 record equalling defeats and 2 wins in 15 games 🤯

He’s effectively being linked to these jobs based on style and formation, despite the fact tactically, he’s very limited. It’s crazy. 

Him going to Bayern would actually probably not be too bad for us, give us a decent bit of compo to replace him rather than holding off and sacking him 10 games into next season. 

It won’t happen though. 

Manager gets linked to one of the biggest jobs in world football... "Hipster". Maybe he's just quite good and thats why he gets these links? Maybe the people who write for football for a living and professionals in the field know more about the sport than you?

Report is almost certainly bollocks but it does show how he perceived by those in the know. For me this shows he is still regarded as a top manager who doesn't have the squad depth he needs and would thrive at a club with more support. Lot of fans here keep asking him to "change things" as if he can pull a top attacking mid or competition at leftback out of thin air.

Edited 16 April, 2021 by TWar

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, TWar said:

Manager gets linked to one of the biggest jobs in world football... "Hipster". Maybe he's just quite good and thats why he gets these links? Maybe the people who write for football for a living and professionals in the field know more about the sport than you?

Report is almost certainly bollocks but it does show how he perceived by those in the know. For me this shows he is still regarded as a top manager who doesn't have the squad depth he needs and would thrive at a club with more support. Lot of fans here keep asking him to "change things" as if he can pull a top attacking mid or competition at leftback out of thin air.

Soljskear won the biggest job in England.  Nothing to do with his talent though.  Did Ralph ever play for Bayern?

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Master Bates said:

https://www.footballtransfertavern.com/southampton-fc-news/southampton-bayern-munich-interested-in-ralph-hasenhuttl/

LOL, the transfertavern. Absolute joke of a website, just kids writing stories to get clicks. I think anyone can sign up to be a writer on that page.

Edited 16 April, 2021 by Turkish

[TWar]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Soljskear won the biggest job in England.  Nothing to do with his talent though.  Did Ralph ever play for Bayern?

He had a brief spell in their B team in the German second league apparently. But not main Bayern no.

Solskjaer was brought in as a caretaker manager, had a ridiculous run of form including a very impressive win against PSG, and that prompted them to take him on permanently. He wasn't hired as their proper manager out of nowhere, he was just a stop-gap till the end of the season until he way overperformed so they gave him a perm contract. Something I think is a mistake to this day but they are doing alright so can't complain.

Also the biggest job in England is probably City, given they are the best and best funded team in world football.

Edited 16 April, 2021 by TWar

[CB Fry]

6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Soljskear won the biggest job in England.  Nothing to do with his talent though.  Did Ralph ever play for Bayern?

The fact that you even asked that question should tell you that it is obviously not the same as Ole at Manchester United.

 

[JustinSFC]

1 hour ago, SKD said:

Him going to Bayern would actually probably not be too bad for us, give us a decent bit of compo to replace him rather than holding off and sacking him 10 games into next season. 

It won’t happen though. 

This is how I see it too.

In other news, I'm in a very posh part of West London and I've just seen the bloke out of quadrophenia and the Blur Parklife official music video walking his dog. 

[SKD]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

Manager gets linked to one of the biggest jobs in world football... "Hipster". Maybe he's just quite good and thats why he gets these links? Maybe the people who write for football for a living and professionals in the field know more about the sport than you?

Report is almost certainly bollocks but it does show how he perceived by those in the know. For me this shows he is still regarded as a top manager who doesn't have the squad depth he needs and would thrive at a club with more support. Lot of fans here keep asking him to "change things" as if he can pull a top attacking mid or competition at leftback out of thin air.

Don’t need to know much about football to see that we’ve lost 2 games 9-0 and have won 2 games in 15. 

He’s effectively been linked with the job (if you can it that) because of his perceived playing style. Basically because Klopp Is a success, people like Ralph and see him as potentially the next big thing. 

I’d hazard a guess at that had Ralph not been at RB, he’d in no way have the reputation he does now. 

Actually watching games rather than reading the athletic And watching YouTube I can tell you he’s tactically naive and far too stubborn, too late to react in game and is reliant on other teams not doing their homework and plan A being a success. 

Ive seen nothing to suggest he is anywhere near good enough for a job at someone like Bayern. 

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, SKD said:

Don’t need to know much about football to see that we’ve lost 2 games 9-0 and have won 2 games in 15. 

He’s effectively been linked with the job (if you can it that) because of his perceived playing style. Basically because Klopp Is a success, people like Ralph and see him as potentially the next big thing. 

I’d hazard a guess at that had Ralph not been at RB, he’d in no way have the reputation he does now. 

Actually watching games rather than reading the athletic And watching YouTube I can tell you he’s tactically naive and far too stubborn, too late to react in game and is reliant on other teams not doing their homework and plan A being a success. 

Ive seen nothing to suggest he is anywhere near good enough for a job at someone like Bayern. 

He took a newly promoted team to 2nd and 6th in the Bundesliga. That is why he has a reputation in Germany. The second paragraph I bolded makes no sense. Of course if you remove a significant achievement of his then his reputation would be different. But why would you remove it?

[SKD]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

He took a newly promoted team to 2nd and 6th in the Bundesliga. That is why he has a reputation in Germany. The second paragraph I bolded makes no sense. Of course if you remove a significant achievement of his then his reputation would be different. But why would you remove it?

Chris Wilder must be waiting for the city job then. 

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, SKD said:

Chris Wilder must be waiting for the city job then. 

How is that relevant to what I said? The equivalent would be Wilder taking a newly promoted team to 2nd and 6th in the Premier League... which he did not do. He didn't even get remotely close to that!

Edited 16 April, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[trousers]

I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt kinda guy, but I'm struggling to justify why we should retain Ralph at the moment

[washsaint]

No Plan B, timid, pathetic performances and today was the final straw.

No ambition, attacking intent and cowardly.

[trousers]

I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt kinda guy, but I'm struggling to justify why we should retain Ralph at the moment

[Saint_clark]

I've supported him all the way but I can't anymore. 

[Saint86]

Game after game after game, we have zero creativity, never look like scoring, give away easy goals and are a delight to play against. The manger seems totally unable to recognise this or make a change. 

He's got the rest of the season to show some improvement or I think no one could criticise him being sacked at this point. 

I thought we'd actually turn up for this cup semi final game... How wrong was I. 

Edited 18 April, 2021 by Saint86

[Pamplemousse]

If only we hadn't sacked Puel eh...

I don't blame Ralph, I blame the players. They didn't show up. I think mentally our team has been weak for some time and we need to get rid of most of them.

You can't always blame the manager...

[Suhari]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'm a benefit-of-the-doubt kinda guy, but I'm struggling to justify why we should retain Ralph at the moment

He did some good for us.

However, I think he's gone as far as he can with Saints.

There's simply nothing exciting or inspirational there now. Is that due to lack of investment, or lack of managerial capability?

Hard to know. But sadly, I think it's time for a change.

Edited 18 April, 2021 by Suhari

[washsaint]

1 minute ago, Suhari said:

He did some good for us.

However, I think he's gone as far as he can with Saints.

There's simply nothing exciting or inspirational there now. Is that due to lack of investment, or lack of managerial capability?

Hard to know. Bit sadly, I think it's time for a change.

Suggest a bit of both.

No way should Bertrand or Walcott get new contracts - I think we are stuck with Ralph as we can't afford to get rid of him.  But Saints are a shambles and, like previous comments, I fear for next season

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The moment I saw Redmond's name on the team sheet I knew Ralph has to go. Has he not learnt anything?

[saint1977]

1 minute ago, Pamplemousse said:

If only we hadn't sacked Puel eh...

I don't blame Ralph, I blame the players. They didn't show up. I think mentally our team has been weak for some time and we need to get rid of most of them.

You can't always blame the manager...

What it needs to be rid of most of all is Gao. RH has run his course but SFC has a set up that needs revitalising and some better, more professional players gracing it at all levels with the right coaching and passion to succeed. Les Reed is the worst thing that ever happened to SFC - look at the state of each of the age sides and knocked out of the youth cup by being hammered by Burton Albion. But to repair the damage since Koeman left, requires significant investment. No wonder there’s no direction or spirit on the pitch when no one has a clue why Gao bought the club and what the future holds. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Teflon Ralph, the cult will be defending him again. 

[Archers Road Stand]

No fans in grounds is giving him, the players and the board a free pass. 

I am so disappointed with this club. 

Edited 18 April, 2021 by Archers Road Stand

[Chapel End]

Let's have a poll

[Katalinic]

That was my tipping point sadly. I like the bloke but we are just devoid of belief and ideas. Don't get me wrong, these players are incredibly limited but at least try to make up in effort what you lack in ability. They just seem totally de-motivated.

[Lord Duckhunter]