Ralph Hasenhuttl

[saintant]

34 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

There’s a middle ground to what you’ve stated. 

Not changing from last week would have been foolish. Changing it to todays line up involved 4 different players starting, but I think you’ll struggle to find many who watched the game who would say we started with the ‘correct’ line up or formation. Our last twenty minutes or so of today was the best we’ve looked so far. I think people are encouraging more of that type of lineup and style. It certainly was worlds away from the first three-quarters of the game, which was fairly abject. We didn’t have a shot in target in the first hour.

The frustrating thing is that the formation and style of play in the last 20 minutes is what many of us have been calling for. It made a world of difference so let's hope Ralph has learned a hard lesson. Hopefully Selles will be on his case because he seemed to be the one behind the formation change. How long before he takes over from Ralph?

[Sparkkyy]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

He was only 21 years old when he joined Saints. He was signed as a player to develop. So what do you think it says?

Someone’s angry after yesterday’s humiliation

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Brentford play 3 at the back, right? 
did they previous to the current manager? Dean Smith at Brentford???

I don’t know, I’ll be honest, but I thought they played 4 at the back last season.

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Brentford play 3 at the back, right? 
did they previous to the current manager? Dean Smith at Brentford???

I think they were often a 4 under Smith. They had Konsa, Mepham, Henry and their right back was decent from memory, Moses someone. Not sure what happened to him.

They played a 4 quite a lot in their promotion season under Frank too. Dalsguard - Pontus - Pinnock - Henry.

[egg]

14 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

There's something very odd going on. He hasn't said anything positive about the 5-3-2 yet continues to play it? It's rather baffling. 

He covered it in the fans forum. Basically easier to integrate new players in a 5. 

[Harry_SFC]

Just now, egg said:

He covered it in the fans forum. Basically easier to integrate new players in a 5. 

But if that formation is costing you points then that just seems a bit stupid to me.

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, egg said:

He covered it in the fans forum. Basically easier to integrate new players in a 5. 

That’s what he said then, yes. His comments after each of the two games in the league seem to contradict it though.

[Turkish]

22 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Ok, I’m more convinced that this isn’t Ralph’s idea. Worrying. Hopefully the message has got through to whoever.

Brentford definitely played 3 at the back at the start of last season. I checked some of their early fixtures by but they also did today and then of last season and chief rolled up sleeves had been long gone. So I’m not convinced its been forced of him, remember he did try this before and didn’t we play it the first game of the season after playing it all pre season and lost 3-0 to Burnley were shit and immediately dropped it? I’m included to think he wants to move in that direction as not his first shot at it

Edited 13 August, 2022 by Turkish

[The Kraken]

Just now, Turkish said:

Brentford definitely played 3 at the back at the start of last season. I checked some of their early fixtures by but they also did today and chief rolled up sleeves is long gone. So I’m not convinced its been forced of him, remember he did try this before and didn’t we play it the first game of the season after playing it all pre season and lost 3-0 to Burnley were shit and immediately dropped it? I’m included to think he wants to move in that direction as not his first shot at it

Yeah we’ve played 3 at the back quite a few times before so I’m not going tin foil hat about it yet. It could very well be just another daft Ralph innovation, I thoroughly accept that. I just find his negative comments about it after both our games more than a little bit odd.

[FarehamSaintJames]

The impression I got was that he picked the team he did last week to avoid throwing lots of debutants into what was a very good Spurs team. And at the time as much as it pissed us off and the result didn’t help I actually see why he did it now.

I think he made a mistake starting with five at the back today and having discussed with his coaching stuff reverted back to the normal back four, removed the weak link in Bednarek and looked to play to our strengths. 
Contrary to what some might think but we really aren’t a bad team at attacking, our problem has been keeping the ball out of our net.

Bazanu and AMK are a very good start to hopefully turning things around.

He got out of it today and a point against relegation rivals is better than gifting them three. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yeah we’ve played 3 at the back quite a few times before so I’m not going tin foil hat about it yet. It could very well be just another daft Ralph innovation, I thoroughly accept that. I just find his negative comments about it after both our games more than a little bit odd.

Completely agree he doesn’t seem to like the formation but he’s tried it many times before and Brentford have played it before and since suggest it’s not imposed on him by the leaders. I don’t really get the comments about intergrating news players by playing 3-5-2 of the three new players one was a goal keeper and the other was an attacking midfielder who ended up playing up front, not sure how it helps them at all how changing your preferred system. 

Edited 13 August, 2022 by Turkish

[ElTrinidad]

I've been calling for a back 4 all pre season, but in hindsight there may be some method in Ralph's madness.

Everyone can see that in his 4 years here there have been sparks of brilliance, but its plain to see that we've definitely lacked a "plan b" in matches, and as a result dropped a horrendous ammount of points from winning positions; I'd go as far to say this has been one of the strongest criticisms during Ralph's tenure, mainly because it rings true.

With this back 5, hes definitely at least trying to remedy this issue. Granted, it looks like we're a long way off being able to implement it successfully, be it due to squad limitations or maybe even the because players we do have still need to learn it thoroughly, but (and hear me out here lads) if we could eventually pull it off, it would be an undenialbly huge advantage for us and drive us up the table.

It seems that Ralph is trying his absolutely hardest to make it work for us. Obviously so far, it hasnt, and maybe it never will, but MAYBE with this young tallented squad, given the time it could work, and if it did, we'd be in a much better place.

Not in any way defending performances we've shown using this system so far, I just cant justify hounding Ralph for trying to improve our game management. I certainly dont think hes clueless, but I understand why many people percieve him to be (escpecially with some of his individual player selections)

[woodsaint1]

How do we know that Selles was behind the formation change as suggested on here? Do we have lip readers and body lanaguage experts in our SWF midst

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

How do we know that Selles was behind the formation change as suggested on here? Do we have lip readers and body lanaguage experts in our SWF midst

Has anybody stated is as fact? It’s just a suggestion made by some who were there. 

[woodsaint1]

2 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Has anybody stated is as fact? It’s just a suggestion made by some who were there. 

Hence my use of the word "suggested"

[Turkish]

 

strange. Why not play that way and integrate the player into the system rather than change the system to integrate the players? 

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, woodsaint1 said:

Hence my use of the word "suggested"

You’ve answered your own question then, I feel 👍

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

We lost 4-1, how much trouble could there have been? We were comprehensively beaten. Also, Valery has played far fewer games in the past two years than Billy Ketchup.

It’s a nonsense of an argument you’re making. Especially as Valery was so shit that he was replaced at half time (by Jack Stephens Ffs).

Well, fairly obviously we could have lost by more than three goals. How would four new young players have felt about being on the wrong end of a 6-0 on debut? Without Salisu’s howler, 3-1 is basically a par score for a team like ours at a CL away game. Valery knows the squad, he knows the players, clearly it’s not a long term plan as ABK started in his place today.

It’s not a nonsense argument. Look at our games from Pardew’s season. We had talent like Lambert, Lallana, Hammond, Morgan and Kelvin in the team and still didn’t win a league game until October. It took time for them to gel as a team.

https://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2471&teamTabs=results

 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well, fairly obviously we could have lost by more than three goals. How would four new young players have felt about being on the wrong end of a 6-0 on debut? Without Salisu’s howler, 3-1 is basically a par score for a team like ours at a CL away game. Valery knows the squad, he knows the players, clearly it’s not a long term plan as ABK started in his place today.

It’s not a nonsense argument. Look at our games from Pardew’s season. We had talent like Lambert, Lallana, Hammond, Morgan and Kelvin in the team and still didn’t win a league game until October. It took time for them to gel as a team.

https://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=2471&teamTabs=results

 

Either you trust the players or you don’t. As i above one of the debutants was a goal keeper the other a 26 year old Whose last game was a European cup final. So we completely changed our system which as Ralph says “is our DNA” to accommodate Lavia, who looked a class player whatever formation we play. Sorry lighthouse but it just doesn’t stack up, it’s bollocks. 

[The Kraken]

7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Well, fairly obviously we could have lost by more than three goals. How would four new young players have felt about being on the wrong end of a 6-0 on debut?

We didn’t lose 6-0, that’s just a  made up scenario. And let’s just say I don’t agree that 4 debut players losing by a big amount makes much difference to the 3 players on debut that did lose. Ketchup isn’t someone making a top league bow, he played more than 50 games in the bundesliga 1 and 2, 22 last season at top level. It’s a daft thing to say Saints were protecting him while playing two debutants who have barely played at all at the top level.

Edited 13 August, 2022 by The Kraken

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

We didn’t lose 6-0, that’s just a  made up scenario. And let’s just say I don’t agree that 4 debut players losing by a big amount makes much difference to the 3 players on debut that did lose. Ketchup isn’t someone making a top league bow, he played more than 50 games in the bundesliga 1 and 2, 22 last season at top level. It’s a daft thing to say Saints were protecting him while playing two debutants who have barely played at all at the top level.

Honestly I think it’s an excuse. From the squad from last season we’ve lost a goal keeper, a loan player and a last minute sub striker who scored one goal every 30 games. Everyone else is the same. We could basically field the same team which started last season with the same system and formation and integrate the new players that way of there really is this issue of not giving too many their debut. Would anyone have moaned if Romeu and started ahead of Lavia last week? 
 

our three debutants one was a keeper another’s last game was a European cup final, it’s an excuse IMO that the system chose has been a disaster just like last time it was tried 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Either you trust the players or you don’t. As i above one of the debutants was a goal keeper the other a 26 year old Whose last game was a European cup final. So we completely changed our system which as Ralph says “is our DNA” to accommodate Lavia, who looked a class player whatever formation we play. Sorry lighthouse but it just doesn’t stack up, it’s bollocks. 

It’s not about trust, it’s about cohesion and being ready as a team. The 2009 is all the proof you need that no matter how much talent you have things take time. It’s the same reason Newcastle can’t win the league this season, even if they’d bought Mbappe, Haaland, KDB and Virgil.

2 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

We didn’t lose 6-0, that’s just a  made up scenario. And let’s just say I don’t agree that 4 debut players losing by a big amount makes much difference to the 3 players on debut that did lose. Ketchup isn’t someone making a top league bow, he played more than 50 games in the bundesliga. It’s a daft thing to say Saints were protecting him while playing two debutants who have barely played at all at the top level.

Of course it’s a made up scenario, you literally just asked me how it could have been worse. Any answer to that will be a made up scenario. When we first got promoted we had to rebuild and the first ten games were awful. Under Poch we basically had 2.5 new players in the team and were top 4 after a couple of months. There’s a lot to be said for stability and steady integration. Even Koeman started with a defeat at Anfield and a pretty awful 0-0 at home to West Brom.

Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Hopefully Ralph is proven right in his approach and our patience pays off.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s not about trust, it’s about cohesion and being ready as a team. The 2009 is all the proof you need that no matter how much talent you have things take time. It’s the same reason Newcastle can’t win the league this season, even if they’d bought Mbappe, Haaland, KDB and Virgil.

Of course it’s a made up scenario, you literally just asked me how it could have been worse. Any answer to that will be a made up scenario. When we first got promoted we had to rebuild and the first ten games were awful. Under Poch we basically had 2.5 new players in the team and were top 4 after a couple of months. There’s a lot to be said for stability and steady integration. Even Koeman started with a defeat at Anfield and a pretty awful 0-0 at home to West Brom.

Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Hopefully Ralph is proven right in his approach and our patience pays off.

And as I said last Saturday you could basically pick the same that started the first game of last season then integrate the players that way. But we didn’t, we completely changed our system to basically accommodate one player who, in reality if Romeu had started instead of not one single fan would have said was the wrong decision. 

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Hopefully Ralph is proven right in his approach and our patience pays off.

Like you say, we’ll agree to disagree about the approach taken so far. My opinion is, it’s been a poorly executed integration as the formation has been utterly awful. Using a Valery/Stephens approach was also imo clearly dreadful. Let’s go 4 at the back, bin off Bednarek, use ABK and Salisu as a pair, and play our best players. No need for patience, play the best players in positions they know.

[MAY-Z]

45 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Either you trust the players or you don’t. As i above one of the debutants was a goal keeper the other a 26 year old Whose last game was a European cup final. So we completely changed our system which as Ralph says “is our DNA” to accommodate Lavia, who looked a class player whatever formation we play. Sorry lighthouse but it just doesn’t stack up, it’s bollocks. 

If Ralph had played 2 up top and those 2 were Willy and Macca lighthouse would praise Ralph for it.

 

the players had no problem adapting in the last 20 minutes today and that had more new players on field than last week so anyone that believes these tales from Ralph has serious problems 

[Convict Colony]

8 hours ago, The Kraken said:

We lost 4-1, how much trouble could there have been? We were comprehensively beaten. Also, Valery has played far fewer games in the past two years than Billy Ketchup.

It’s a nonsense of an argument you’re making. Especially as Valery was so shit that he was replaced at half time (by Jack Stephens Ffs).

[John B]

8 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

But if that formation is costing you points then that just seems a bit stupid to me.

Well it was worth trying at Spurs where we were unlikely to get any points but not yesterday at home although he may not have been happy with Dossa at LB in 4

[egg]

8 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

But if that formation is costing you points then that just seems a bit stupid to me.

I'm not supporting him mate, just answering the point on why he said he doing it. I wanted him gone ages ago, and still do. 

[skintsaint]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

 

 

[Baird of the land]

7 hours ago, Turkish said:

 

strange. Why not play that way and integrate the player into the system rather than change the system to integrate the players? 

Who was the doppelgänger at the fan forum banging on about how great 5 at the back was and how new players could never pick up the 4 in time.

[Mr X]

48 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

Who was the doppelgänger at the fan forum banging on about how great 5 at the back was and how new players could never pick up the 4 in time.

That would be our super stubborn manager aka klop mark 2

[LGTL]

This is a consequence of another appalling pre season where we didn’t know our best team, formation or style of play. As a result we came into a season, once again, hideously under prepared. 

[saintant]

9 hours ago, Turkish said:

 

strange. Why not play that way and integrate the player into the system rather than change the system to integrate the players? 

He's contradicting himself because previously he's claimed the new players would take time to adopt to this formation and cited that as a reason to play 3 at the back. Seems he's confusing himself as well as the players.

[saintant]

8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s not about trust, it’s about cohesion and being ready as a team. The 2009 is all the proof you need that no matter how much talent you have things take time. It’s the same reason Newcastle can’t win the league this season, even if they’d bought Mbappe, Haaland, KDB and Virgil.

Of course it’s a made up scenario, you literally just asked me how it could have been worse. Any answer to that will be a made up scenario. When we first got promoted we had to rebuild and the first ten games were awful. Under Poch we basically had 2.5 new players in the team and were top 4 after a couple of months. There’s a lot to be said for stability and steady integration. Even Koeman started with a defeat at Anfield and a pretty awful 0-0 at home to West Brom.

Anyway, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Hopefully Ralph is proven right in his approach and our patience pays off.

So if it's about cohesion, being ready as a team and is going to take time surely it's better to use that time playing the system that suits us which is blatantly not 3 at the back. As said it's an excuse and we should be playing 4222 and integrating players gradually into that if they are not ready but, judging by the last 20 minutes yesterday, they are more than ready.

[badgerx16]

How many teams play 4 at the back ? How unusual a system is it ? How can anybody say it would take time for a player to learn the system ? Even 20 year old top flight professionals have been playing and getting tactical coaching for probably 12 years. All our new signings have come from academies at top division clubs. None were making their first first team appearances.

Edited 14 August, 2022 by badgerx16

[DT]

Hassenhutl now joined by Ten Hag in trio of managers most likely to lose their jobs first, Lampard being the other. 

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How many teams play 4 at the back ? How unusual a system is it ? How can anybody say it would take time for a player to learn the system ? Even 20 year old top flight professionals have been playing and getting tactical coaching for probably 12 years. All our new signings have come from academies at top division clubs. None were making their first first team appearances.

Exactly. Lavia has been in and around the Man City first team who play a high pressing game in a 4.

It's probably easier for a centre back to play in a 4 rather than a 3. 

Aribo is a fit, experienced player who I'm sure would pick up the system very quickly.

So the only player who may not know the tactics is Mara, who hasn't even started yet anyway. 

[Saint-Michael]

49 minutes ago, saintant said:

He's contradicting himself because previously he's claimed the new players would take time to adopt to this formation and cited that as a reason to play 3 at the back. Seems he's confusing himself as well as the players.

He makes it up as he goes along we could so easily lost he needs to be called Houdini. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

I’m still not a fan but he got it badly wrong yesterday, changed things about and we got a point out of it, which is better than none but especially better than gifting a rival three points.

He lives to fight another day as manager 👍🏻

[saintant]

1 minute ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I’m still not a fan but he got it badly wrong yesterday, changed things about and we got a point out of it, which is better than none but especially better than gifting a rival three points.

He lives to fight another day as manager 👍🏻

But he may have gifted them one point and cost us two.

[FarehamSaintJames]

The board will understand that these fixtures are not favourable for RH so may give him extended time.

I suppose in the meantime they’ll want to see the players playing for him, and when things were changed about mid half yesterday you could see they were. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Wade Garrett]

The shape of the team that started yesterday was awful.

That said, credit must be given for the substitutions and change of shape.  Suddenly we looked a dangerous side.

How much of that was Ralph and how much Selles, we’ll never know.

[stevy777_x]

11 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

The shape of the team that started yesterday was awful.

That said, credit must be given for the substitutions and change of shape.  Suddenly we looked a dangerous side.

How much of that was Ralph and how much Selles, we’ll never know.

Who cares how much is was down to anyone?

if it was Ralph good on him, if it was selles Ralph is listening to his assistant.

Either way good job

[Whitey Grandad]

29 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

The shape of the team that started yesterday was awful.

That said, credit must be given for the substitutions and change of shape.  Suddenly we looked a dangerous side.

How much of that was Ralph and how much Selles, we’ll never know.

Quite clearly it was the chants of “You’re getting sacked in the morning” that concentrated his mind and forced the changes on him 🥴

[badgerx16]

33 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

The board will understand that these fixtures are not favourable for RH so may give him extended time.

I suppose in the meantime they’ll want to see the players playing for him, and when things were changed about mid half yesterday you could see they were. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Fixtures schmixtures, you have to play everybody else twice in a season. Perhaps a run of games like we had at the end of last season would help; Brentford, Watford, Palace, Burnley, all defeats in our tremendous run of 13 league games with 1 win.

[The Cat]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Quite clearly it was the chants of “You’re getting sacked in the morning” that concentrated his mind and forced the changes on him 🥴

I was actually surprised how quickly they finished. Was a quick chorus after the second goal but I didn't hear much after that. I had thought the atmosphere would have been toxic if we were a couple behind.

In his interview afterwards Aribo commented about the fans staying with the team even when we were losing.

[Pamplemousse]

49 minutes ago, The Cat said:

I was actually surprised how quickly they finished. Was a quick chorus after the second goal but I didn't hear much after that. I had thought the atmosphere would have been toxic if we were a couple behind.

In his interview afterwards Aribo commented about the fans staying with the team even when we were losing.

Immediate subs made a difference. Usually we're crap at coming from behind, especially at home, but you could see there was energy and belief once we switched formation and started to hurt them, and the fans felt that too for sure.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

The board will understand that these fixtures are not favourable for RH so may give him extended time.

I suppose in the meantime they’ll want to see the players playing for him, and when things were changed about mid half yesterday you could see they were. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Where’s this pony about tough fixtures early on  coming from? 
 

Spurs away is tough, but Leeds & Leicester have both lost key players, Leeds finished below us last season. Man U are a shambles, Wolves going backwards, Villa aren’t great, and Brentford are well, Brentford. So Aug/Sept we’ve got 8 games, 2 of which Chelsea & Spurs are tough. The rest are pretty fucking soft in the context of staying up. More noddy mentality. Tough games, my arse. 

[Alan Sugarfree]

15 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Where’s this pony about tough fixtures early on  coming from? 
 

Spurs away is tough, but Leeds & Leicester have both lost key players, Leeds finished below us last season. Man U are a shambles, Wolves going backwards, Villa aren’t great, and Brentford are well, Brentford. So Aug/Sept we’ve got 8 games, 2 of which Chelsea & Spurs are tough. The rest are pretty fucking soft in the context of staying up. More noddy mentality. Tough games, my arse. 

I can’t help but think Leicester, Man Utd and Wolves will still be looking at us as 3 points on the board and a chance to build a bit of confidence.

we usually rollover and let Wolves tickle our belly no matter how bad they are playing. I await this season’s edition as an expectant betting punter rather than saints fan.

i will of course, be delighted to be proved wrong.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It’s amazing isn’t it, who’d have thought it? Getting more forward thinking players on the pitch and going for it against a side that only just avoided relegation resulted in 2 goals?
 

The problem is this bloke can’t set us up to defend, doesn’t seem to be capable of drilling the players defensively and putting a structure in place that limits the opposition’s chances. Any backs against the wall wins (Arsenal, The crying game etc) have come on the back of exceptional individual performances, not through tactically smothering the opposition. Without reigniting the Claude Puel debate, week after week, we had a defensive structure that was drilled, perfected and implemented, everybody knew their role and stuck to it. Teflon seems to want to tighten up defensively, but throws random players in, and nobody seems to know exactly where they stand. We end up with the worst of both worlds, unable to defend properly but stifling our “playbook”. I honestly think the drubbings we’ve taken have affected Ralph, have made him manage differently and manage in an “unnatural “ way for him. Just as Claude Puel would probably have been a disaster trying to be more expansive (rumours are he refused to change his style), defensive Ralph is a shit show. Yesterday a prime example, woefully inadequate defending and limp up front. Personally, I want a manager in who can tighten us up, I want us to be more defensively sound, but not against fucking Leeds at home. Had we gone for it, I reckon we could of run out 3-1,4-2 winners. Hade we Claude’d them, maybe 1-0 . We ended up with the worst of both worlds.  It’s good that he’s shown a bit of flexibility, but the flexibility should be around little tweaks here and there, not weird line ups. Personally, I like 3 at the back, but we have t got the players or the structure or the managerial nouse to play it. 3 years into the job and he doesn’t seem to know his best line up or formation, that’s pretty fucking poor. 

Edited 14 August, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter