Ralph Hasenhuttl

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

Poor show for me if they've buggered off. Might be telling in terms of if they feel they're hanging around next season.

I know Romeu was talking along the lines of keeping his options open not so long ago.

I'm all too happy for a mass clear out, but naively I assumed it would be the dross going, I am now worried that it maybe some of the more marketable players.

[AlexLaw76]

We are not going to buy a new team.  We will try and clear out those who are rarely play.

Ralph is the biggest problem and the easiest to address

[sydney_saint]

I think any discussion of Ralph needs to consider the resources he has had available. I've just grabbed the numbers from Transfermarkt to see his net spend since his first summer transfer window.

Club	21/22	20/21	19/20	Total
Brentford FC	-32.13	49.23	5.64	22.74
Watford FC	-27.59	60.75	-20.79	12.37
Norwich City	-23.09	27.64	-5.95	-1.4
Burnley FC	-4.86	1.08	-9.27	-13.05
Southampton FC	15.54	-9.9	-30.78	-25.14
Crystal Palace	-77.05	-2.16	43	-36.21
Brighton & Hove Albion	4.32	-7.11	-53.91	-56.7
Chelsea FC	1.76	-170.82	101.04	-68.02
Leicester City	-57.24	-5.06	-14.22	-76.52
Liverpool FC	-51.75	-58.91	30.69	-79.97
Everton FC	5.85	-62.05	-29.88	-86.08
Wolverhampton Wanderers	-5.22	-7.74	-83.34	-96.3
Leeds United	-53.01	-96.12	27.36	-121.77
West Ham United	-63.24	-8.36	-57.89	-129.49
Newcastle United	-118.35	-34.85	-33.53	-186.73
Manchester City	-36.63	-86.09	-79.67	-202.39
Tottenham Hotspur	-55.6	-87.48	-75.6	-218.68
Aston Villa	-2.54	-88.72	-140.85	-232.11
Arsenal FC	-122.42	-60.17	-96.44	-279.03
Manchester United	-98.37	-57.87	-138.26	-294.5

We are where we are for a reason. Whilst money isn't everything, it's pretty hard to go substantially up the table without it. Brentford are a bit of an anomaly, but need to see where they are this time next year. Also consider if you added in teams that have been relegated like Fulham who have probably spent way more than us. 

So for me Ralph is hitting his objectives, which is to avoid relegation and get us on some cup runs. Expecting top half is nice, but need to accept that it would be a big overachievement to get it given our cash.

Let's say we got a new manager, and he was a success. That would gain us realistically 10 extra points a season. So roughly where Wolves are, but not European places.  

If we got a new manager, and he failed. That could lose us 10 extra points a season. Which could easily see us relegated. We have seen with Hughes and Pellegrino that there are managers far worse than Ralph out there so this scenario is not inlikely.

Ralph has never had us in serious threat of relegation. Which is where we would be if this backfired. Is a few potential places up the ladder worth the risk? Not for me UNLESS we suddenly have bigger cash resources. 

 

 

 

 

[Give it to Ron]

13 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

I think any discussion of Ralph needs to consider the resources he has had available. I've just grabbed the numbers from Transfermarkt to see his net spend since his first summer transfer window.

Club	21/22	20/21	19/20	Total
Brentford FC	-32.13	49.23	5.64	22.74
Watford FC	-27.59	60.75	-20.79	12.37
Norwich City	-23.09	27.64	-5.95	-1.4
Burnley FC	-4.86	1.08	-9.27	-13.05
Southampton FC	15.54	-9.9	-30.78	-25.14
Crystal Palace	-77.05	-2.16	43	-36.21
Brighton & Hove Albion	4.32	-7.11	-53.91	-56.7
Chelsea FC	1.76	-170.82	101.04	-68.02
Leicester City	-57.24	-5.06	-14.22	-76.52
Liverpool FC	-51.75	-58.91	30.69	-79.97
Everton FC	5.85	-62.05	-29.88	-86.08
Wolverhampton Wanderers	-5.22	-7.74	-83.34	-96.3
Leeds United	-53.01	-96.12	27.36	-121.77
West Ham United	-63.24	-8.36	-57.89	-129.49
Newcastle United	-118.35	-34.85	-33.53	-186.73
Manchester City	-36.63	-86.09	-79.67	-202.39
Tottenham Hotspur	-55.6	-87.48	-75.6	-218.68
Aston Villa	-2.54	-88.72	-140.85	-232.11
Arsenal FC	-122.42	-60.17	-96.44	-279.03
Manchester United	-98.37	-57.87	-138.26	-294.5

We are where we are for a reason. Whilst money isn't everything, it's pretty hard to go substantially up the table without it. Brentford are a bit of an anomaly, but need to see where they are this time next year. Also consider if you added in teams that have been relegated like Fulham who have probably spent way more than us. 

So for me Ralph is hitting his objectives, which is to avoid relegation and get us on some cup runs. Expecting top half is nice, but need to accept that it would be a big overachievement to get it given our cash.

Let's say we got a new manager, and he was a success. That would gain us realistically 10 extra points a season. So roughly where Wolves are, but not European places.  

If we got a new manager, and he failed. That could lose us 10 extra points a season. Which could easily see us relegated. We have seen with Hughes and Pellegrino that there are managers far worse than Ralph out there so this scenario is not inlikely.

Ralph has never had us in serious threat of relegation. Which is where we would be if this backfired. Is a few potential places up the ladder worth the risk? Not for me UNLESS we suddenly have bigger cash resources. 

 

 

 

 

It’s not resources that are issue for me it’s how he utilises them . So 1 win in 13 is not resources they were ok for February weren’t they?

Substitutions when game is going away from us is not resources it’s poor management and tactically naivety 

[BallBoy]

This is just an observation. I am not saying it solves or resolves anything.

Ralph is as good as any Saints manager I have known at improving individual players. He likes to take relatively raw players and then coach them to be better. Ward-Prowse and Walker-Peters are the obvious examples. He sees what they can do and plays to their strengths. To a lesser extent the same is true of Salisu, Livramento, Broja and even Romeu. I notice, however, that he also sometimes brings those same players down to earth by dropping them if they fall even slightly below that standard.

As I say - just my own observation.   

[Give it to Ron]

I’ll give you an example Ely has been awful for weeks. He can’t defend, not great defensively at tackling or heading. Offensively he has no pace can’t skin anyone against Palace he came off the bench to do what? 
Armstrong who this week started warmed up then didn’t get one minute his pace could have kept Palace defence busy?

What would Ely do after weeks of being rubbish in Ramadan in that last 10?

[sydney_saint]

2 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

It’s not resources that are issue for me it’s how he utilises them . So 1 win in 13 is not resources they were ok for February weren’t they?

Substitutions when game is going away from us is not resources it’s poor management and tactically naivety 

You could also say that he was utilising our resources ridiculously well to get us on that run given how poor alot of our squad is. We took points off sides with way more spending power than us.  That's why I am judging him across the season, rather than 13 games. Whether you think it's poor management or not, he has got us 40 points and steered clear of relegation, which would have been the objective at the start of the season. What for you would have been an acceptable position and points tally?

[gordonToo]

Still finely balanced but our game depends on having good players in all positions which clearly is not the case. So, we either buy good players or change the system. But Ralph is wedded to the high press so changing the system means changing the manager. Semmens et al will know all this so we can only watch and wait.

 

[Give it to Ron]

1 minute ago, sydney_saint said:

You could also say that he was utilising our resources ridiculously well to get us on that run given how poor alot of our squad is. We took points off sides with way more spending power than us.  That's why I am judging him across the season, rather than 13 games. Whether you think it's poor management or not, he has got us 40 points and steered clear of relegation, which would have been the objective at the start of the season. What for you would have been an acceptable position and points tally?

Realistic 48-50 points and not defeats to bottom clubs like Watford where we played 1 up front and Smallbone are down to Ralph and his tactics. 1 up front away at Burnley are down to tactics not resources.

 

 

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Give it to Ron said:

Realistic 48-50 points and not defeats to bottom clubs like Watford where we played 1 up front and Smallbone are down to Ralph and his tactics. 1 up front away at Burnley are down to tactics not resources.

That’s just about top half points, which you expect on a bottom three, non-existent budget. We played one up front at Burnley because they have better players than us.

[sydney_saint]

3 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

Realistic 48-50 points and not defeats to bottom clubs like Watford where we played 1 up front and Smallbone are down to Ralph and his tactics. 1 up front away at Burnley are down to tactics not resources.

 

 

A team that finishes on 48 points will likely be top half. How is that a par achievement when our spend is near the bottom of the table? Whilst achievable, you are setting expectation at a huge overachievement. Ridiculous to set par at overachievement, and then sack the manager if he doesn't hit it. In fact, that's a recipe for relegation down the line.

Yeah the defeats to Burnley and Watford are shit, but we have also taken points off United, City twice, Spurs, Arsenal. Some of his tactics have been bizarre at times. Other times they have been fantastic. 

[Kenilworthy]

13 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

You could also say that he was utilising our resources ridiculously well to get us on that run given how poor alot of our squad is. We took points off sides with way more spending power than us.  That's why I am judging him across the season, rather than 13 games. Whether you think it's poor management or not, he has got us 40 points and steered clear of relegation, which would have been the objective at the start of the season. What for you would have been an acceptable position and points tally?

But Ralph has not steered us clear of relegation, we remain in significant danger

[captainchris]

5 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

Realistic 48-50 points and not defeats to bottom clubs like Watford where we played 1 up front and Smallbone are down to Ralph and his tactics. 1 up front away at Burnley are down to tactics not resources.

 

 

I am not a Ralph fan, however it is two up front plus fullbacks and the ‘10’ s too far advanced which is killing us.

Ralphs tactics leave us wide open, often with just two centre backs to defend with and no protection.

 

[sydney_saint]

2 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

But Ralph has not steered us clear of relegation, we remain in significant danger

Oh don't be silly. We aren't in significant danger of going down. We have the slightest, most remote chance of going down. Burnley, Everton and Leeds are in significant danger. You have to go back nearly 20 years for 40 points not to be enough. 

[ErwinK1961]

12 minutes ago, Kenilworthy said:

But Ralph has not steered us clear of relegation, we remain in significant danger

100/1 if you fancy it 

[Lallana's Left Peg]

No doubt Ralph has his faults but this idea any good manager gets the most out of his team consistently over a season needs to go.  There are only two managers in this league doing that.  The issue for me is more where these expectations that we're any better than 15th - 17th come from.  Look at any sensible logical information and it'll show for the money we spend we meet expectations over the course of the season - piecing together some good form for 2 months of it does not mean we're better than we really are.

That's not to absolve Ralph of any responsibility for this up and down form, but realistically what are people expecting from a squad so starved of investment?  We got spoilt for a few seasons and seem to think that is easy to replicate.  Be grateful we even survive in a league where everyone else other than Burnley have more means and ambition than us.  It could have been us going down this season, not them.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

-

Edited 9 May, 2022 by Ex Lion Tamer
replied to wrong person

[Ex Lion Tamer]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Poor show for me if they've buggered off. Might be telling in terms of if they feel they're hanging around next season.

I know Romeu was talking along the lines of keeping his options open not so long ago.

This is extremely speculative

[Toussaint]

55 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

I think any discussion of Ralph needs to consider the resources he has had available. I've just grabbed the numbers from Transfermarkt to see his net spend since his first summer transfer window.

Club	21/22	20/21	19/20	Total
Brentford FC	-32.13	49.23	5.64	22.74
Watford FC	-27.59	60.75	-20.79	12.37
Norwich City	-23.09	27.64	-5.95	-1.4
Burnley FC	-4.86	1.08	-9.27	-13.05
Southampton FC	15.54	-9.9	-30.78	-25.14
Crystal Palace	-77.05	-2.16	43	-36.21
Brighton & Hove Albion	4.32	-7.11	-53.91	-56.7
Chelsea FC	1.76	-170.82	101.04	-68.02
Leicester City	-57.24	-5.06	-14.22	-76.52
Liverpool FC	-51.75	-58.91	30.69	-79.97
Everton FC	5.85	-62.05	-29.88	-86.08
Wolverhampton Wanderers	-5.22	-7.74	-83.34	-96.3
Leeds United	-53.01	-96.12	27.36	-121.77
West Ham United	-63.24	-8.36	-57.89	-129.49
Newcastle United	-118.35	-34.85	-33.53	-186.73
Manchester City	-36.63	-86.09	-79.67	-202.39
Tottenham Hotspur	-55.6	-87.48	-75.6	-218.68
Aston Villa	-2.54	-88.72	-140.85	-232.11
Arsenal FC	-122.42	-60.17	-96.44	-279.03
Manchester United	-98.37	-57.87	-138.26	-294.5

We are where we are for a reason. Whilst money isn't everything, it's pretty hard to go substantially up the table without it. Brentford are a bit of an anomaly, but need to see where they are this time next year. Also consider if you added in teams that have been relegated like Fulham who have probably spent way more than us. 

So for me Ralph is hitting his objectives, which is to avoid relegation and get us on some cup runs. Expecting top half is nice, but need to accept that it would be a big overachievement to get it given our cash.

Let's say we got a new manager, and he was a success. That would gain us realistically 10 extra points a season. So roughly where Wolves are, but not European places.  

If we got a new manager, and he failed. That could lose us 10 extra points a season. Which could easily see us relegated. We have seen with Hughes and Pellegrino that there are managers far worse than Ralph out there so this scenario is not inlikely.

Ralph has never had us in serious threat of relegation. Which is where we would be if this backfired. Is a few potential places up the ladder worth the risk? Not for me UNLESS we suddenly have bigger cash resources. 

 

 

 

 

I find the "net spend" defence quite misleading really. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't  account for the market value of Broja and Livramento for example. It also doesn't account for the market value of players we have developed or improved, which is after all our model. If anyone could provide an objective list of squad / team transfer value it would give a more realistic picture of where we sit in the scheme of things, if that is what you want to judge Ralph on.  

However, none of  that explains his kamikaze tactics, daft team selections and illogical substitutions. It also doesn't explain the sustained massive drops in form and the occasional humiliation.  

[Ex Lion Tamer]

2 hours ago, Christophenburg said:

I know we don’t play for another 10 days, but I feel it says a lot that some of the lads have jetted off on holiday. I wonder just how much Ralph encourages the players to take responsibility, or even pushes them when they’re underperforming

Ralph is a disciplinarian. He has a hard training, high energy approach to the game. And when he came in he instantly picked fights with the old guard like of Cedric over things like using phones in the treatment room.

More likely is that the players are just physically and mentally exhausted by his demands. In which case a short holiday might not be the worst thing for them

[Toussaint]

3 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Ralph is a disciplinarian. He has a hard training, high energy approach to the game. And when he came in he instantly picked fights with the old guard like of Cedric over things like using phones in the treatment room.

More likely is that the players are just physically and mentally exhausted by his demands. In which case a short holiday might not be the worst thing for them

I didn't like all the "on the bus" crap when he joined, in my experience in life in general, higher achievers are harder to manage, surrounding yourself with "yes men" will ultimately reduce team performance.  

[Give it to Ron]

37 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

A team that finishes on 48 points will likely be top half. How is that a par achievement when our spend is near the bottom of the table? Whilst achievable, you are setting expectation at a huge overachievement. Ridiculous to set par at overachievement, and then sack the manager if he doesn't hit it. In fact, that's a recipe for relegation down the line.

Yeah the defeats to Burnley and Watford are shit, but we have also taken points off United, City twice, Spurs, Arsenal. Some of his tactics have been bizarre at times. Other times they have been fantastic. 

You don’t think we should have 8 points more than now? That not a huge over achievement setting the bar at 40 points is setting expectations so low it’s recipe for disaster. If Ralph is as good as you make out surely he could coach wins against bottom teams not just the ones you mentioned?

[Give it to Ron]

48 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

That’s just about top half points, which you expect on a bottom three, non-existent budget. We played one up front at Burnley because they have better players than us.

What about Watford do they have better players than us? 

[Sarisbury Saint]

1 hour ago, BallBoy said:

This is just an observation. I am not saying it solves or resolves anything.

Ralph is as good as any Saints manager I have known at improving individual players. He likes to take relatively raw players and then coach them to be better. Ward-Prowse and Walker-Peters are the obvious examples. He sees what they can do and plays to their strengths. To a lesser extent the same is true of Salisu, Livramento, Broja and even Romeu. I notice, however, that he also sometimes brings those same players down to earth by dropping them if they fall even slightly below that standard.

As I say - just my own observation.   

Don’t agree that he improves players.

One purple patch where they all looked good is not enough to make that kind of statement .

Judging them over the last 50 games would be a better indication and I haven’t seen any improvement. More so a decline.

[Barsiem]

8 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

Don’t agree that he improves players.

One purple patch where they all looked good is not enough to make that kind of statement .

Judging them over the last 50 games would be a better indication and I haven’t seen any improvement. More so a decline.

JWP tbf has improved massively during his time here, albeit some may claim that’s in spite of Ralph rather than because of….

Cannot think of any others though.  KWP looked good as soon as he came through the door

[saint michael]

I’m afraid Ralph is going nowhere. At every opportunity they the boardalign to approach and continuing the journey. Maybe if next year starts with a wipeout they may change their views, but I hold little hope of a change. 
 

I think the Board alignment with him is part of this problem don’t feel like there is any real challenge to poor performance. The only real thing which will change this is financial impact. We look at it from football perspective they look at it from financial. Until the two meet failing football and financial impact…I think things will stay much the same. Will be interesting to see how season ticket renewal goes. For the first time in all my time I’m thinking of not renewing. 

[Lighthouse]

13 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

What about Watford do they have better players than us? 

Ralph set us up to counter the way Watford played. It didn’t work, so he changed it. Having said that we didn’t exactly set the pitch on fire when we brought on Broja in the second half either. 

[sydney_saint]

25 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

What about Watford do they have better players than us? 

What about Man City, do they have worse players than us? We have picked up 11 points from top 6 clubs. That's a pretty damn good performance, especially when you consider the dominance of the top 2 over the league. So if you want to hang the shit results over his head, you have to hold the excellent ones as well. 

To your other point on 48. Yeah I bloody want more points. But whether we 'should' have them is different. We haven't hit that number very often in our history, and when we do, they are widely considered excellent seasons. It's getting even harder with everyone outspending us. You are setting the bar at 'very good season'. As said, they would be top 10. Why on earth do we have a right to be top 10 given the size of clubs and resources? Top 10 is achieveable, but requires a great season

Edited 9 May, 2022 by sydney_saint

[Ex Lion Tamer]

43 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I didn't like all the "on the bus" crap when he joined, in my experience in life in general, higher achievers are harder to manage, surrounding yourself with "yes men" will ultimately reduce team performance.  

I didn't mean to quote you on that reply, but I think it's a fair criticism that Ralph's approach asks too much of players and makes it difficult to maintain consistency over a season. However, I also think that there was a culture problem when he joined that he sorted out. Ultimately it's about getting the balance right

[Ex Lion Tamer]

29 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

Don’t agree that he improves players.

One purple patch where they all looked good is not enough to make that kind of statement .

Judging them over the last 50 games would be a better indication and I haven’t seen any improvement. More so a decline.

He's the only manager to have got JWP fulfilling his potential

[Chez]

1 hour ago, Give it to Ron said:

I’ll give you an example Ely has been awful for weeks. He can’t defend, not great defensively at tackling or heading. Offensively he has no pace can’t skin anyone against Palace he came off the bench to do what? 

To be fair, his hand was forced a little bit as it was to replace (a woeful) Tella (who should have been subbed at half time IMO, who yet again had cramp issues and fucked up Ralph's plans to take Redmond off and put Armstrong on.  

Just reading that back, and the names I just rolled off, and the term moving the deckchairs on the Titantic comes to mind.

[Chez]

21 minutes ago, saint michael said:

We look at it from football perspective they look at it from financial. Until the two meet failing football and financial impact…I think things will stay much the same. 

Agreed. The change will come when they feel Premiership survival depends on a change being made.

[sydney_saint]

43 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I find the "net spend" defence quite misleading really. I'm pretty sure that wouldn't  account for the market value of Broja and Livramento for example. It also doesn't account for the market value of players we have developed or improved, which is after all our model. If anyone could provide an objective list of squad / team transfer value it would give a more realistic picture of where we sit in the scheme of things, if that is what you want to judge Ralph on.  

However, none of  that explains his kamikaze tactics, daft team selections and illogical substitutions. It also doesn't explain the sustained massive drops in form and the occasional humiliation.  

I agree if isn't foolproof, and there are many other things to consider like salaries as well. But I do think it is a good bell-weather. Take West Ham and Wolves who are doing the best of the rest this season. They are also near the top of the big spenders outside top 6 over the last few years. A couple of exceptions like Everton, who everyone recognises as having an abysmal season, and Chelsea as they have an unusual model with their academy. I also think net spend is useful as it tells you who is selling players to balance the books. Take Brighton, who most don't think as big spenders. Over the last 5 years, they have spent 182m compared to our 25m. They've been gradually building this squad over a number of seasons, and only really lost White and Burns during that time. Let's see what happens when they have to sell the likes of Lamptey and Bissouma. 

On things like daft team selections and illogical solutions. I agree he has made some weird decisions, and one of my big frustrations is when he tinkers when we have a winning formula. But also. Every fan in the EPL has these same criticisms of their manager! Even Pep gets challenged by City fans for occasional daft team selections or illogical subs. 

[sydenhamssocks]

10 minutes ago, Give it to Ron said:

You don’t think we should have 8 points more than now? That not a huge over achievement setting the bar at 40 points is setting expectations so low it’s recipe for disaster. If Ralph is as good as you make out surely he could coach wins against bottom teams not just the ones you mentioned?

Absolutely correct!

This ‘bottom half budget’ excuse is a statistical smokescreen that often doesn’t relate to the real situation and human elements that evolve. 
A club with a low budget might buy shrewdly/luckily and finish top half. Or. A club spending more, may blow it on overpriced rubbish and end up in trouble. The key to either of those scenarios standing or falling is the manager. 
It shouldn’t be unrealistic to expect to see us where Brighton are surely!
 

 

[sydney_saint]

6 minutes ago, sydenhamssocks said:

Absolutely correct!

This ‘bottom half budget’ excuse is a statistical smokescreen that often doesn’t relate to the real situation and human elements that evolve. 
A club with a low budget might buy shrewdly/luckily and finish top half. Or. A club spending more, may blow it on overpriced rubbish and end up in trouble. The key to either of those scenarios standing or falling is the manager. 
It shouldn’t be unrealistic to expect to see us where Brighton are surely!
 

 

No one is saying that a team can't overachieve on a lower budget (though there are realistic limits to how high you can go). It's about where you set your expectations. How you can set an expectation of a top 10 finish on our budget I just totally fail to understand. 

Everyone agrees Brighton are having a very good season. Which brings me to the point that you are setting the expectation of our club to greatly overachieve. Brighton have also spent loads more than us. Since their promotion their spend is 182m compared to our 25m. All of that, and they still are unlikely to beat ralphs record point tally in the division. 

Ralph isn't perfect, I ain't saying that. But for me it's a huge risk getting rid of him given he has kept us up on relative scraps compared to others. A small potential increase in points ain't worth risking relegation in my eyes. Just take a look at the new manager thread. So uninspiring. 

[MAY-Z]

2 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

No one is saying that a team can't overachieve on a lower budget (though there are realistic limits to how high you can go). It's about where you set your expectations. How you can set an expectation of a top 10 finish on our budget I just totally fail to understand. 

Everyone agrees Brighton are having a very good season. Which brings me to the point that you are setting the expectation of our club to greatly overachieve. Brighton have also spent loads more than us. Since their promotion their spend is 182m compared to our 25m. All of that, and they still are unlikely to beat ralphs record point tally in the division. 

Ralph isn't perfect, I ain't saying that. But for me it's a huge risk getting rid of him given he has kept us up on relative scraps compared to others. A small potential increase in points ain't worth risking relegation in my eyes. Just take a look at the new manager thread. So uninspiring. 

It only takes a few less points from Ralph and we are gone, so you can play that both ways.

 

anyone who has seen any game this year, or really any game under Ralph,  knows Ralph doesn’t make the most of the resources by picking some poor sides and being useless at substitutions 

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, MAY-Z said:

anyone who has seen any game this year, or really any game under Ralph,  knows Ralph doesn’t make the most of the resources by picking some poor sides and being useless at substitutions 

What, like when we beat Spurs away?

[Toussaint]

45 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

He's the only manager to have got JWP fulfilling his potential

There are other possibilities, notably that Ralph has been very fortunate to manage JWP during his (JWP's) prime development years, we can never know if JWP would have improved equally well or better under another manager. JWP is such an intelligent rational guy I think it's more likely he took control over his own development. I tend to think that Ralph, being so rigid, is more likely to strangle development. Who know how Djneppo may have developed under a different style of manager? 

[MAY-Z]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

What, like when we beat Spurs away?

You realise there are more than 1 game in a season don’t you?

[MarkSFC]

Statistically he is "ok". He has averaged 1.3 points per game which is about 49 a season. 

But the complete extreme of performances is my major concern. 

He seems to experiment too much with lineups and systems too often it feels making it a priority over the win.

 

3.5 seasons is enough for me. 

New manager, new players....go. 

 

[sydenhamssocks]

17 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

No one is saying that a team can't overachieve on a lower budget (though there are realistic limits to how high you can go). It's about where you set your expectations. How you can set an expectation of a top 10 finish on our budget I just totally fail to understand. 

Everyone agrees Brighton are having a very good season. Which brings me to the point that you are setting the expectation of our club to greatly overachieve. Brighton have also spent loads more than us. Since their promotion their spend is 182m compared to our 25m. All of that, and they still are unlikely to beat ralphs record point tally in the division. 

Ralph isn't perfect, I ain't saying that. But for me it's a huge risk getting rid of him given he has kept us up on relative scraps compared to others. A small potential increase in points ain't worth risking relegation in my eyes. Just take a look at the new manager thread. So uninspiring. 

To be honest I can set my expectations where I like. It’ll be down to me to mange the outcome and outpouring of emotions either way ! 
But I’m not going to set the bar so low that celebrating mediocrity is success. That’s not what any football fan looks ahead too each hopeful summer. 
The wide range of budgets in the premier is probably what makes it what it is. If you don’t have the spending power then get a manager who can inspire and lift you to maybe over achieve. There’s not a lot to choose between our players and the Brighton squad. Individual price tags aren’t a guarantee. If so, then we have the most coveted of the lot in JWP. 

Since returning to the prem. we have finished 14th 8th 7th 6th 8th under Adkins Poch Koeman & Puel. 
then. 17th 16th 11th 15th & 15th-ish this season, under Pelligrino Hughes & Ralph  

I preferred the first 5 seasons listed, as the overachieving they produced was great fun and the managers were better.
so my expectations may be tainted by that but it’s not that long ago to be another era. 
Your reasoning to keep Ralph is based on, he’s done well to keep us up with the money he had. Presumably you feel, given a big budget next season he’ll take us into the top ten with relative ease  

if he’s given the budget to buy a bigger engine for the car, he’ll certainly travel faster, but will that make him a better driver? 
not for me  

I wouldn’t worry about the new manager forum, I doubt the owners will look there for a replacement. But you knew that 😉

 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

46 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

There are other possibilities, notably that Ralph has been very fortunate to manage JWP during his (JWP's) prime development years, we can never know if JWP would have improved equally well or better under another manager. JWP is such an intelligent rational guy I think it's more likely he took control over his own development. I tend to think that Ralph, being so rigid, is more likely to strangle development. Who know how Djneppo may have developed under a different style of manager? 

All possibilities indeed, but it's not really fair to refuse to give him credit for JWP and then blame him for Djenepo. Multiple managers had failed to get JWP firing. 

To be honest I think Ralph's high pressing style and intense fitness work was exactly what JWP needed to find a way of benefiting the midfield, as he was just ok at everything (barring free kicks) before that and couldn't find his role.

We will see if Djenepo goes on to be a better player at another club or under another manager

Edited 9 May, 2022 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Sunglasses Ron]

12 minutes ago, sydenhamssocks said:

Since returning to the prem. we have finished 14th 8th 7th 6th 8th under Adkins Poch Koeman & Puel. 
then. 17th 16th 11th 15th & 15th-ish this season, under Pelligrino Hughes & Ralph  

I preferred the first 5 seasons listed, as the overachieving they produced was great fun and the managers were better.
 

Worth pointing out again that the 06th place finish under Koeman in 2016 was 63 points, whereas the 8th place finish under Puel in 2017 was 46 points, a massive negative swing of 17 points. Ralph bettered that total when we finished 11th in 2020 (52 points).  

[Give it to Ron]

1 hour ago, sydney_saint said:

What about Man City, do they have worse players than us? We have picked up 11 points from top 6 clubs. That's a pretty damn good performance, especially when you consider the dominance of the top 2 over the league. So if you want to hang the shit results over his head, you have to hold the excellent ones as well. 

To your other point on 48. Yeah I bloody want more points. But whether we 'should' have them is different. We haven't hit that number very often in our history, and when we do, they are widely considered excellent seasons. It's getting even harder with everyone outspending us. You are setting the bar at 'very good season'. As said, they would be top 10. Why on earth do we have a right to be top 10 given the size of clubs and resources? Top 10 is achieveable, but requires a great season

Because at every press conference our manager talks about that being the goal is he wrong as well then?

Ill add that to my list 🙂

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, MAY-Z said:

You realise there are more than 1 game in a season don’t you?

You said 'any game under Ralph' - I just picked one for you.

[Saint Matty 76]

 

Thoughts on this? I think I actually agree with him (a first for talkSPORT).

[Toussaint]

4 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

 

Thoughts on this? I think I actually agree with him (a first for talkSPORT).

I generally like listening to DM, but he shows he's a bit out of touch when he cites Bertrand as Vestagard as factors in our demise. Ings , yes, he was the difference last season.

[Streaky]

4 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

I think any discussion of Ralph needs to consider the resources he has had available. I've just grabbed the numbers from Transfermarkt to see his net spend since his first summer transfer window.

Club	21/22	20/21	19/20	Total
Brentford FC	-32.13	49.23	5.64	22.74
Watford FC	-27.59	60.75	-20.79	12.37
Norwich City	-23.09	27.64	-5.95	-1.4
Burnley FC	-4.86	1.08	-9.27	-13.05
Southampton FC	15.54	-9.9	-30.78	-25.14
Crystal Palace	-77.05	-2.16	43	-36.21
Brighton & Hove Albion	4.32	-7.11	-53.91	-56.7
Chelsea FC	1.76	-170.82	101.04	-68.02
Leicester City	-57.24	-5.06	-14.22	-76.52
Liverpool FC	-51.75	-58.91	30.69	-79.97
Everton FC	5.85	-62.05	-29.88	-86.08
Wolverhampton Wanderers	-5.22	-7.74	-83.34	-96.3
Leeds United	-53.01	-96.12	27.36	-121.77
West Ham United	-63.24	-8.36	-57.89	-129.49
Newcastle United	-118.35	-34.85	-33.53	-186.73
Manchester City	-36.63	-86.09	-79.67	-202.39
Tottenham Hotspur	-55.6	-87.48	-75.6	-218.68
Aston Villa	-2.54	-88.72	-140.85	-232.11
Arsenal FC	-122.42	-60.17	-96.44	-279.03
Manchester United	-98.37	-57.87	-138.26	-294.5

We are where we are for a reason. Whilst money isn't everything, it's pretty hard to go substantially up the table without it. Brentford are a bit of an anomaly, but need to see where they are this time next year. Also consider if you added in teams that have been relegated like Fulham who have probably spent way more than us. 

So for me Ralph is hitting his objectives, which is to avoid relegation and get us on some cup runs. Expecting top half is nice, but need to accept that it would be a big overachievement to get it given our cash.

Let's say we got a new manager, and he was a success. That would gain us realistically 10 extra points a season. So roughly where Wolves are, but not European places.  

If we got a new manager, and he failed. That could lose us 10 extra points a season. Which could easily see us relegated. We have seen with Hughes and Pellegrino that there are managers far worse than Ralph out there so this scenario is not inlikely.

Ralph has never had us in serious threat of relegation. Which is where we would be if this backfired. Is a few potential places up the ladder worth the risk? Not for me UNLESS we suddenly have bigger cash resources. 

 

 

 

 

What about wage budget and how much Ralph earns. If you are only going on net spend it doesn't really prove anything. We didn't spend anything on Theo but still pay him 75k a week. How many bench warmers at Palace or Brighton or even Leeds do that. At end of the day we should be doing a lot better than we are. 

 

[DT]

22 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

 

Thoughts on this? I think I actually agree with him (a first for talkSPORT).

I mean, it's a view. And he hasn't been helped by the flimsy mercenaries and don't care muppets like Redmond. But it's time for a change, in my view. Would happily take dour consistency for a bit rather than embarrassing powder puff heavy defeats.

[Appy]

24 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

 

Thoughts on this? I think I actually agree with him (a first for talkSPORT).

They’ve spelt his name wrong, is my first thought.