Sparing a thought for Bury FC and its fans

[alpine_saint]

A club exactly the same age as ours, looks like its out of time.

 

We all remember the despair we felt before Markus and Cortese turned up, I guess. I hope someone pulls a last- minute rabbit out of the hat..

[egg]

I'm not sure it's all over yet, still offers on the table.

[Nordic Saint]

I have fond memories of our last 2 home games v Bury: the 2-0 FA Cup win in 2008, when they brought a fair number of fans down, and the 6-2 league win at the Dell in 1965 (4 goals from George O'Brien and 1 each for Wimshurst and Chivers in our promotion season), when they didn't. There must be a few posters here who were at the away game at Gigg Lane that season, which we won 3-1.

 

It must be tough for both Bury and Bolton trying to survive in the ever growing shadows of the two big Manchester clubs. Bolton have always been a bogey team for us though and I remember some trouble with their fans up there on the way back to the station in the late 70s, which was reciprocated when they played down here.

[Sheaf Saint]

It must be tough for both Bury and Bolton trying to survive in the ever growing shadows of the two big Manchester clubs.

 

I'm not sure that's really the issue. Oldham, Rochdale and Stockport are all just as close to Manchester and they seem able to run themselves properly (that I know of).

[John Boy Saint]

Bury still have 5 bids in the pipe 2 with Proof of Finance - One of which is the Cala chap (American Sicilian ) who was sniffing around p*rtsm*outh around 2012 with the intention to buy.

Mr Cala has had the necessary on the table for a week but the EFL seemingly don't like him, and he the is a bit miffed at the EFLs foot dragging.

From the EFLs position you can see the demise of both Bury and Bolton would be quite convenient to even up the league.

Bury fans are hanging onto a tenuous thread that they will still have a game on Saturday

[saintadjg]

So they're not going to keep the breaks/extensions to deadlines that Leeds and fishy lot down the road seemed to keep getting then.

[Nordic Saint]

Bury still have 5 bids in the pipe 2 with Proof of Finance - One of which is the Cala chap (American Sicilian ) who was sniffing around p*rtsm*outh around 2012 with the intention to buy.

Mr Cala has had the necessary on the table for a week but the EFL seemingly don't like him, and he the is a bit miffed at the EFLs foot dragging.

From the EFLs position you can see the demise of both Bury and Bolton would be quite convenient to even up the league.

Bury fans are hanging onto a tenuous thread that they will still have a game on Saturday

 

99 times out of a hundred, league clubs in dire financial trouble are saved at the brink or reborn under a slightly different company name so the odds are that they'll both survive in some form or another. The worst case scenario is probably that one of them might end up reborn in the National League North after a short hiatus. The rise of Salford FC in an area already dominated by Manchester United and City hasn't done Bury any favours though.

[East Kent Saint]

The issue in Bury's case is , like Blackpool , the present owner was milking the club . Just before the CVA his daughters partner set up a company which took on a large part of the debt for peanuts. He could then vote for the CVA and the shell company became a major debtor which will freeze out all the small local companies so total disgrace as the owner will profit again by the clubs demise . I would be nice if such maneuvering was illegal in this day and age ...................

[Victor]

The issue in Bury's case is , like Blackpool , the present owner was milking the club . Just before the CVA his daughters partner set up a company which took on a large part of the debt for peanuts. He could then vote for the CVA and the shell company became a major debtor which will freeze out all the small local companies so total disgrace as the owner will profit again by the clubs demise . I would be nice if such maneuvering was illegal in this day and age ...................

 

Nice, but it won't happen while the people in power believe it to be a fair way of doing business and are using such tactics for their own benefit.

 

Anyway, I still haven't forgiven them for beating us 4-0 in the FA cup final.

[Tamesaint]

 

Anyway, I still haven't forgiven them for beating us 4-0 in the FA cup final.

 

Too bloody right !!

[John Boy Saint]

Bury are lobbying the EFL hard right now throwing everything they have at them, a fly in the ointment bizarrely is the Carlisle owner who wants Bury out. Hardly a surprise as they are on the edge of the dotted line at the bottom of League 2 if Bolton or Bury go, that means no or one less relegation into the National league.

[whelk]

Yeah this needed another thread.

[Jonnyboy]

They've been expelled:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49451896

[angelman]

Not sure the EFL had much other choice really.

 

What's going on at Bolton??

[egg]

 

What's going on at Bolton??

 

BBC article says "League One will comprise of 23 clubs for the rest of the season, with only three teams to be relegated". Suggests Bolton live to fight on.

[S-Clarke]

Not sure the EFL had much other choice really.

 

What's going on at Bolton??

 

All a bit odd with Bolton. They said they'd release a statement later this evening, 6 hours ago. Silence is deafening.

 

Apparently they had multiple bids on the table still, so who knows. I know people say that they'll be fine come the 11th hour, but the 11th hour has long passed......seeing a club like Bolton disapear could be a huge wakeup call to the entire landscape. It's not out of the question.

[Lighthouse]

That article has been updated - Bolton have been given another 14 days for some reason.

[SaintBobby]

I guess Bolton have at least made some sort of effort to meet their fixture obligations, something Bury have failed to do.

 

All very sad though. Football seems riddled with a mix of financial incompetence & corruption still.

[Koolman]

Gone accordi g to BBC -https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/49451896

[S-Clarke]

That article has been updated - Bolton have been given another 14 days for some reason.

 

I don't think it's as simple as they’ve been given '14' days - from how I understood it, they had until 5pm today to provide evidence of progress else the EFL would serve them notice on their membership (14 days).

 

This is what they've done. There's a pretty strict set of regs they now need to show they meet by the 12th September, there will be no more extensions or deadlines - it's 12th or bust.

 

Their only option is a takeover and someone who has the clout to financially satisfy the EFL's regulations. It puts the pressure on them now, for sure.

[Fan The Flames]

Statement to supporters on the Bury website warning them of the consequences of tresspass, insult to injury.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

What a terrible shame for all involved especially the fans

 

Does anyone know how much money they were owing?

I suspect it was not as much as tax dodging cheat fc down the road got away with..

[East Kent Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49493929

 

Some explanation here .

[CWD]

What a terrible shame for all involved especially the fans

 

Does anyone know how much money they were owing?

I suspect it was not as much as tax dodging cheat fc down the road got away with..

 

I was up that way over the weekend and watching the local news. I’m think they said £2m would be enough to ensure the club could operate for the next TWO seasons. Doesn’t seem a lot when you look at the PL money. Desperate shame.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

I was up that way over the weekend and watching the local news. I’m think they said £2m would be enough to ensure the club could operate for the next TWO seasons. Doesn’t seem a lot when you look at the PL money. Desperate shame.

 

Yes as you say its peanuts for premier league

[beatlesaint]

I was up that way over the weekend and watching the local news. I’m think they said £2m would be enough to ensure the club could operate for the next TWO seasons. Doesn’t seem a lot when you look at the PL money. Desperate shame.

 

Well this is whats wrong with football. As the big clubs get bigger and greedier the smaller clubs can go whistle. Each Prem club could have put £100k in a kitty and that would have been Bury saved. Simplistic I know but all this ******** about "football family" is just lip service. I doubt very much Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, all big clubs close to Bury will give a flying ****.

[Doctoroncall]

I don't think it's as simple as they’ve been given '14' days - from how I understood it, they had until 5pm today to provide evidence of progress else the EFL would serve them notice on their membership (14 days).

 

This is what they've done. There's a pretty strict set of regs they now need to show they meet by the 12th September, there will be no more extensions or deadlines - it's 12th or bust.

 

Their only option is a takeover and someone who has the clout to financially satisfy the EFL's regulations. It puts the pressure on them now, for sure.

 

They could go before the 12th.

 

Head of the supporters group puts saving the club at 50/50.

[Saints foreva]

Well this is whats wrong with football. As the big clubs get bigger and greedier the smaller clubs can go whistle. Each Prem club could have put £100k in a kitty and that would have been Bury saved. Simplistic I know but all this ******** about "football family" is just lip service. I doubt very much Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, all big clubs close to Bury will give a flying ****.

 

Premier League clubs bailing out Bury would have sent the wrong message to lower league clubs.

 

"Overspend and the PL clubs will bail you out"

[Lighthouse]

Well this is whats wrong with football. As the big clubs get bigger and greedier the smaller clubs can go whistle. Each Prem club could have put £100k in a kitty and that would have been Bury saved. Simplistic I know but all this ******** about "football family" is just lip service. I doubt very much Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, all big clubs close to Bury will give a flying ****.

 

The problem with that is that every dodgy local business man and his dog will be buying clubs, bleeding them dry and going begging to the big clubs for 'just a couple of million' to keep them going.

[once_bitterne]

Beware all owners trying to turn a quick profit.

 

Ralph worked a miracle in keeping us up considering where Hughes left us. If we had gone down, with our huge wage bill, and on Championship revenue levels I think it's not that far fetched to say we could well be looking at administration by now. Certainly Gao doesn't have the funds to have been able to bail us out.

[egg]

Premier League clubs bailing out Bury would have sent the wrong message to lower league clubs.

 

"Overspend and the PL clubs will bail you out"

Yep, completely agree. Bigger / more successful businesses have no responsibility towards smaller /mismanaged businesses. Its a bit like saying that Amazon and Ebay should help out smaller online businesses in trouble, or that McDonald's and Greggs should have a whip round to save smaller ailing take away businesses. The bottom line is that businesses fail, its a sad fact of life.

[John Boy Saint]

Well that’s a shame - having dodged the bullet before some years back thanks to the Fans Trust that pulled them out of the fire. Having not been as fortunate as our blue friends down the road who picked up Eisner, they ended up down the same street in the dodgy part of town so to speak and not been so lucky.

My lifelong Bury supporting cousin was heavily involved in crunching the numbers for fans trust that saved them before, when some money walked through the door he ended up walking away as the money decided it knew better, and the Fans Trust was increasingly edged out of the picture. They had a Fan from the trust on the board but he ended up being there as a token gesture.

It always made me smile when there was talk from Saints to ultimately have a fan on the board, I guess in Leon Crouch we did, and through his personal wealth we were able to hang on until Markus turned up. Roughly speaking we had a similar bunch of chancers to what Bury ended up taking trying to own our club.

My cousin was asked for his help again as this final situation unfolded, his wife didn’t give much detail but what she did, it was obviously a much bigger mountain to climb compared to when the fans trust saved them before. There has not been much love for Mr Dale throughout his ownership.

There has often been talk about the obscenity of money in the Premier League needing to filter down to the lower reaches of the football pyramid. You could say it has, but the water these lower clubs are swimming in is polluted with the sewerage from the clubs at the top, in that as teams have spent increasing amounts on ordinary players and Mickey Mouse salaries at the top, so the costs of running a football club in all divisions has followed the upwards trend except with very little actual money filtering from the top. Players and more likely their agents have pushed the price and wages of the key component of a football club up, beyond the actual financial means of the club.

I worked with a bloke about 15 years ago, he played in a Sunday league side up on Tyneside. Twice a year he had to work a Sunday at a trade show and one day he mentioned that his commission from one Sunday was less than the £275 match fee he would have received had he been at home and turned out for the team. I was shocked that he was getting so much if anything for playing so far down in the Football pyramid. Where does the money come from?

Bury use to benefit from mainly Man Utd fans popping along, to get their footie fix, when Utd were playing away. When the Glaziers moved into Man Utd and FC United was formed this extra gate receipt income dwindled as so many Man Utd fans went to watch them instead, bizarrely they played games for a while at Gigg Lane and my Cousins son went along to a couple of games and said the gate for FC Utd games was as big if not bigger than Bury home gates!

 

Professional Football in this country is going to eat itself, and sadly it’s likely to be from the bottom up, as it’s not going to be another 27 gap until the next team is expelled from the Football League.

 

As you can imagine my Cousin and his Shakers mad family are in bits over this............ their regular matchday ritual of many years gone - probably forever.

[VectisSaint]

I guess Bolton have at least made some sort of effort to meet their fixture obligations, something Bury have failed to do.

 

Bury's fixtures were suspended by the EFL.

[supersonic]

I do get where the "businesses fail" arguments come from, but football clubs are far more than businesses, they're community assets, both locally and nationally.

 

The level of elitism from some PL clubs and fans is appalling, most of whom came from the lower leagues and most, barring the top 6 could very well end up back there if they aren't careful.

 

If we get relegated in the next two seasons, I worry about our club, with the wage bill and the lack of supposed investment, it's worrying and could very well happen to us (again).

 

English football is unsustainable, the PL clubs will get richer whilst the lower leagues face more and more struggles, it'll only get worse with teams going for broke with the aim of getting the PL TV money.

 

Bury gone, Bolton could well go, Coventry in turmoil, Birmingham under FFP penalties, Derby having to sell their stadium, Reading having to sell their stadium and two training grounds to avoid administration and being under soft transfer embargo.

 

15% of League 1 and 17% of League 2 clubs (around 7 clubs in the bottom two leagues) have "a grave concern of going into administration" (https://www.accountancydaily.co/one-five-championship-teams-financial-difficulty) and 18 league clubs faced winding-up petitions between 2012-2017.

 

I'm not saying PL teams need to step in precisely for Bolton and Bury, but something needs to be done with the reallocation of money, perhaps a levy on any transfers over £50m, or 1% of ticket sales from Premier League, FACup semi finals and final, League cup final being placed into a pot and distributed around leagues 1 and 2?

[VectisSaint]

Well this is whats wrong with football. As the big clubs get bigger and greedier the smaller clubs can go whistle. Each Prem club could have put £100k in a kitty and that would have been Bury saved. Simplistic I know but all this ******** about "football family" is just lip service. I doubt very much Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, all big clubs close to Bury will give a flying ****.

Its not that simple at all. Of course they could have done it, but the problem with Bury has been corruption and mismanagement. Giving money to a corrupt/incompetent owner doesn't solve a problem. The problem has come about because the EFL allows any tom, **** or harry to take ownership of a club, its tests for ownership competency are a nonsense (the PL is no better of course). Giving handouts to the Bury FC Club under its current ownership would be crass stupidity. The EFL could perhaps have taken temporary ownership, maybe that was a way out, but they won't do that. In the end much of the problem that has arisen here comes back to the incompetence of the EFL.

[RedArmy]

The EFL need to introduce a new rule that stops clubs gaining promotion unless their finances are in order.

 

It’s terrible for the fans of both clubs but teams that spent within their means have missed out on promotion because these 2 clubs mismanaged their finances.

Mansfield sacked Flitcroft because he didn’t take them up when in reality they missed out by 3 points and Bury shouldn’t have been where they were.

[once_bitterne]

Well that’s a shame - having dodged the bullet before some years back thanks to the Fans Trust that pulled them out of the fire. Having not been as fortunate as our blue friends down the road who picked up Eisner, they ended up down the same street in the dodgy part of town so to speak and not been so lucky.

My lifelong Bury supporting cousin was heavily involved in crunching the numbers for fans trust that saved them before, when some money walked through the door he ended up walking away as the money decided it knew better, and the Fans Trust was increasingly edged out of the picture. They had a Fan from the trust on the board but he ended up being there as a token gesture.

It always made me smile when there was talk from Saints to ultimately have a fan on the board, I guess in Leon Crouch we did, and through his personal wealth we were able to hang on until Markus turned up. Roughly speaking we had a similar bunch of chancers to what Bury ended up taking trying to own our club.

My cousin was asked for his help again as this final situation unfolded, his wife didn’t give much detail but what she did, it was obviously a much bigger mountain to climb compared to when the fans trust saved them before. There has not been much love for Mr Dale throughout his ownership.

There has often been talk about the obscenity of money in the Premier League needing to filter down to the lower reaches of the football pyramid. You could say it has, but the water these lower clubs are swimming in is polluted with the sewerage from the clubs at the top, in that as teams have spent increasing amounts on ordinary players and Mickey Mouse salaries at the top, so the costs of running a football club in all divisions has followed the upwards trend except with very little actual money filtering from the top. Players and more likely their agents have pushed the price and wages of the key component of a football club up, beyond the actual financial means of the club.

I worked with a bloke about 15 years ago, he played in a Sunday league side up on Tyneside. Twice a year he had to work a Sunday at a trade show and one day he mentioned that his commission from one Sunday was less than the £275 match fee he would have received had he been at home and turned out for the team. I was shocked that he was getting so much if anything for playing so far down in the Football pyramid. Where does the money come from?

Bury use to benefit from mainly Man Utd fans popping along, to get their footie fix, when Utd were playing away. When the Glaziers moved into Man Utd and FC United was formed this extra gate receipt income dwindled as so many Man Utd fans went to watch them instead, bizarrely they played games for a while at Gigg Lane and my Cousins son went along to a couple of games and said the gate for FC Utd games was as big if not bigger than Bury home gates!

 

Professional Football in this country is going to eat itself, and sadly it’s likely to be from the bottom up, as it’s not going to be another 27 gap until the next team is expelled from the Football League.

 

As you can imagine my Cousin and his Shakers mad family are in bits over this............ their regular matchday ritual of many years gone - probably forever.

 

It's not though is it. 100% there will be a Bury to support next season and in all probability they will be playing at Gigg Lane.

[benjii]

Beware all owners trying to turn a quick profit.

 

Ralph worked a miracle in keeping us up considering where Hughes left us. If we had gone down, with our huge wage bill, and on Championship revenue levels I think it's not that far fetched to say we could well be looking at administration by now. Certainly Gao doesn't have the funds to have been able to bail us out.

 

Indeed.

[Faz]

Beware all owners trying to turn a quick profit.

 

Ralph worked a miracle in keeping us up considering where Hughes left us. If we had gone down, with our huge wage bill, and on Championship revenue levels I think it's not that far fetched to say we could well be looking at administration by now. Certainly Gao doesn't have the funds to have been able to bail us out.

 

Absolute rubbish. A club with no debts, parachute payments and player relegation clauses, leaving player sales aside.

[SFC Forever]

Bury failed because of owner greed, or mismanagement. Increasing the amount of money given yearly would simply make the same owners greed increase

[Roo1976]

Beware all owners trying to turn a quick profit.

 

Ralph worked a miracle in keeping us up considering where Hughes left us. If we had gone down, with our huge wage bill, and on Championship revenue levels I think it's not that far fetched to say we could well be looking at administration by now. Certainly Gao doesn't have the funds to have been able to bail us out.

 

how do you know this?............

[jayrivers]

Gutted for Bury! With family members who live near to the town and support the club, the heart has been ripped out. I don't believe the football league should have been allowed to let this happen. Whether that means they need rules to enable them to step in when owners are at fault or a way to prevent owners from miss-management I don't know. To small towns like that, especially in the shadow of so many clubs in and around Manchester, those clubs are such community assets. It's a dark day not just for Bury for football in this country.

[Doctoroncall]

It's not though is it. 100% there will be a Bury to support next season and in all probability they will be playing at Gigg Lane.

 

Do you know who owns Gigg Lane and any covenants on it?

[John B]

The first game I ever saw was in August 1962 when Bury beat us 3 0

[John Boy Saint]

Do you know who owns Gigg Lane and any covenants on it?

Its was signed over to a bridging loan company who are on the side of the club continuing to exist.

[hasper57saint]

We almost went there too. Feel so sad for those fans. The Football ASSOCIATION exists in name only.They could have intervened.Shame on them.

[ooh it's a corner]

there needs to be a sensible cap on player wages and agent fees.

 

When we were in League One, our revenue for the year dropped to something like £12m and we had Jason Euell earning 750k per year. The maths simply doesnt add up, which is why most relegated premier league teams struggle financially unless they have a one season hit and dont buy anyone (like Blackpool).

 

Very few owners are taking vast sums of money out of the 92 league clubs, most are putting in. The people taking the revenue out of the clubs are the players, which is ironic really - the players bleed the cow dry and then complain when the cow dies.

 

I appreciate your average Bury footballer isnt earning £1m a year, but I bet he is earning more than the 25k per year that the finances would allow Bury to pay......

 

Sad for Bury but some of the blame has to go to the authorities who, yet again, prove that they are not governing the sport very well

[angelman]

Bolton have been bought/saved. "International consortium" say that they have £7m in place to buy Bury and are trying to get EFL to rescind.

[John Boy Saint]

Bolton have been bought/saved. "International consortium" say that they have £7m in place to buy Bury and are trying to get EFL to rescind.

That "International consortium" have been there for a little while, but by all accounts Dale has been playing silly buggers and siding with that company who pulled out at the 11th hour last night - Bit like us and that Mickey Fialka (?) bloke who nearly saw Markus walk away.

 

It is a situation that shouldn't have happened, and makes an absolute farce of the EFL claiming they do due diligence own ownership.

[SaintBobby]

Bury's fixtures were suspended by the EFL.

 

Sure, but why? Bolton were allowed to play fixtures and Bury not. Surely, this wasn't just random?

 

Problem now - although I do hope both clubs survive - is that it's skewing the season for other clubs.

 

Maybe it isn't too late, but if team X has beaten Bolton 5-0 because they fielded a team of 14 year olds and team Y needs to face them in, say, December when they will field a proper team, that's problematic.

 

Similarly, if Bury are now allowed to compete, they have caused fixture pile ups for the matches they've missed.

 

Almost the fairest/nicest thing to do is to allow both clubs to continue but to treat all their 46 matches as "friendlies", with no points at stake and both of them automatically down to League 2 next season.