VAR

[Whitey Grandad]

They've been getting ready for this for two seasons in the PL and it's been used in leagues around Europe, plus the World Cup and the women's World Cup. You really think they're just picking a random angle and drawing lines in with a marker pen and a ruler?

 

In that case I repeat my question. Why can't we have a more definitive view?

 

Yes, I do think that these lines are drawn arbitrarily. I don't trust any technology to get it more accurate than 20 to 30cm at best. There are supposed to be 3D simulations on the way but they're not here yet.

[The Kraken]

[eurosaint]

What a cop out, there is a huge difference between a rule, and a law. Anyway I'm not a pendant, just someone who loves football, and uses the right term, as one should.

 

Not unless you are hanging off the end of a necklace

Sorry to be pedantic

[Fan The Flames]

The Laws were written to be interpreted by a bloke with a whistle and two with flags, they were never intended to be forensically examined to the nearest millimetre. Offside was only introduced to prevent goal-hanging and to try to apply it to anything more accurate that afoot or two is ridiculous, especially in a fast moving game. They should just leave it in the hands of the independent assistant and say that if he looks offside, he’s offside. We never used to have this problem until they started filming and recording games.

 

If we are going to micro-analyse every game then we need a wide scale revision of the Laws. The problem for me is that there should be the same Laws and application of them throughout all layers of the game, from local park kicks abouts to World Cup Finals.

 

Offside has always been a feature of football and was there long before the codes split, so this 'offside was only introduced to prevent goal-hanging' isn't correct. Also this whole thing about daylight that I heard a few pundits say over the weekend, was from the pre 90's time when an attacker had to be behind the last defender. It was easier for a linesman to judge offside when it was like that but now the defender can be level and people still want them to be allowed a discretion.

 

The balance between defender and attacker is now fair and the technology is there to judge it (it might not be 100% correct, but its the same for everyone), so there shouldn't really be an issue. No one has an issue when goal line technology judges a ball to have not crossed the line by 1mm.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not unless you are hanging off the end of a necklace

Sorry to be pedantic

You’re being pendantic, not pedantic

[Whitey Grandad]

Offside has always been a feature of football and was there long before the codes split, so this 'offside was only introduced to prevent goal-hanging' isn't correct. Also this whole thing about daylight that I heard a few pundits say over the weekend, was from the pre 90's time when an attacker had to be behind the last defender. It was easier for a linesman to judge offside when it was like that but now the defender can be level and people still want them to be allowed a discretion.

 

The balance between defender and attacker is now fair and the technology is there to judge it (it might not be 100% correct, but its the same for everyone), so there shouldn't really be an issue. No one has an issue when goal line technology judges a ball to have not crossed the line by 1mm.

Goal Line Technology is not 100% accurate but it’s accepted because it’s not easy arguing against a machine.

[Faz]

Goal Line Technology is not 100% accurate but it’s accepted because it’s not easy arguing against a machine.

 

Try arguing with an OAP.

[VectisSaint]

Offside has always been a feature of football and was there long before the codes split, so this 'offside was only introduced to prevent goal-hanging' isn't correct.

Have to call you out on this. Yes, offiside in various forms dates from the codes of football played at Eton and Harrow, and pre-dates the split between rugby and association football, but the various rules or laws varied greatly between the various codes and were influenced by other laws such as not being able to pass forward (not just rugby but in the original draft rules of association in 1863). Sheffield rules had no offside rule at all. They had players called "kick-throughs" positioned permanently near the opponent goal (goal-hangers as we used to call them when we were playing kick abouts with jumpers for goal posts). The offside rule was included in the original laws of the game in 1866, but was fundamentally changed in 1925 when the requirement for the number of defenders was changed from 3 to 2 and this resulted in a huge change to the game, where goal scoring increaed hugely. Changed again in 1990 to say a player was onsied if level with the last defender. Bottom line, offside law now is nothing like what it was in the 19th century, and is most definitely there to counter the tactic of goal hangers or their proper name, kick throughs. The most important point though is that the law was never meant to be based on the precision that is now being demaded with VAR - that has really only come about with the change in 1990.

 

I don't recall people referring to daylight between defender and attacker, but the point is that the attacker should not be offside unless he is gaining an advantage. Having a tone nail ahead of a defender gains no significant advantage. It should be left up to the referee and lineo to determine if a player has gained a significant advantage or not and not by some video enhanced technology. I'm in favour of VAR for most apsects, but its application to offside is just fundamentally stupid.

[hasper57saint]

Id sooner have VAR over Kevin friend any day.

[Whitey Grandad]

Try arguing with an OAP.

 

I might try that one day

[merrimd]

In that case I repeat my question. Why can't we have a more definitive view?

 

Yes, I do think that these lines are drawn arbitrarily. I don't trust any technology to get it more accurate than 20 to 30cm at best. There are supposed to be 3D simulations on the way but they're not here yet.

 

I think they are probably getting a lot closer than that. Interesting watch this :-

. I didnt realise Hawk-eye were doing it.

[Whitey Grandad]

I think they are probably getting a lot closer than that. Interesting watch this :-

. I didnt realise Hawk-eye were doing it.

 

Interesting, thanks. Seems a lot of palaver for a minor problem. I see that they use the plane of the goalmouth for their baseline which is less accurate than using the foot of the corner flags.

[Fan The Flames]

Have to call you out on this. Yes, offiside in various forms dates from the codes of football played at Eton and Harrow, and pre-dates the split between rugby and association football, but the various rules or laws varied greatly between the various codes and were influenced by other laws such as not being able to pass forward (not just rugby but in the original draft rules of association in 1863). Sheffield rules had no offside rule at all. They had players called "kick-throughs" positioned permanently near the opponent goal (goal-hangers as we used to call them when we were playing kick abouts with jumpers for goal posts). The offside rule was included in the original laws of the game in 1866, but was fundamentally changed in 1925 when the requirement for the number of defenders was changed from 3 to 2 and this resulted in a huge change to the game, where goal scoring increaed hugely. Changed again in 1990 to say a player was onsied if level with the last defender. Bottom line, offside law now is nothing like what it was in the 19th century, and is most definitely there to counter the tactic of goal hangers or their proper name, kick throughs. The most important point though is that the law was never meant to be based on the precision that is now being demaded with VAR - that has really only come about with the change in 1990.

 

I don't recall people referring to daylight between defender and attacker, but the point is that the attacker should not be offside unless he is gaining an advantage. Having a tone nail ahead of a defender gains no significant advantage. It should be left up to the referee and lineo to determine if a player has gained a significant advantage or not and not by some video enhanced technology. I'm in favour of VAR for most apsects, but its application to offside is just fundamentally stupid.

 

Have to call you out on this. Yes, offiside in various forms dates from the codes of football played at Eton and Harrow, and pre-dates the split between rugby and association football, but the various rules or laws varied greatly between the various codes and were influenced by other laws such as not being able to pass forward (not just rugby but in the original draft rules of association in 1863). Sheffield rules had no offside rule at all. They had players called "kick-throughs" positioned permanently near the opponent goal (goal-hangers as we used to call them when we were playing kick abouts with jumpers for goal posts). The offside rule was included in the original laws of the game in 1866, but was fundamentally changed in 1925 when the requirement for the number of defenders was changed from 3 to 2 and this resulted in a huge change to the game, where goal scoring increaed hugely. Changed again in 1990 to say a player was onsied if level with the last defender. Bottom line, offside law now is nothing like what it was in the 19th century, and is most definitely there to counter the tactic of goal hangers or their proper name, kick throughs. The most important point though is that the law was never meant to be based on the precision that is now being demaded with VAR - that has really only come about with the change in 1990.

 

I don't recall people referring to daylight between defender and attacker, but the point is that the attacker should not be offside unless he is gaining an advantage. Having a tone nail ahead of a defender gains no significant advantage. It should be left up to the referee and lineo to determine if a player has gained a significant advantage or not and not by some video enhanced technology. I'm in favour of VAR for most apsects, but its application to offside is just fundamentally stupid.

 

I don't think you said anything to disprove what I said, the offside rule was there at the very beginning, it wasn't brought in to solve a problem with goal hanging it was always part of the rules and a hang over from before the codes split. Only a small part of the country for a very short period had no offside, your kick through thing is a red herring. There has always been offside and over time the balance has progressively become fairer between attack and defence. Another red herring is this notion the the law was never intended blah blah blah, it doesn't matter what the original intentions were, the only thing that matters now is the current iteration of the law. IFAB want matters of fact; offside, balls over the line, to be black or white and VAR is a way of achieving that and as the balance of offside is now fair between attack and defence the level of measurement is probably required. I find it hard to understand the level of dislike for VAR.

 

If you don't recall people going on about 'daylight' you haven't been involved in a sunday league argument in the 80's when 'their' lineman deliberately flagged for offside.

[VectisSaint]

I don't think you said anything to disprove what I said, the offside rule was there at the very beginning, it wasn't brought in to solve a problem with goal hanging it was always part of the rules and a hang over from before the codes split. Only a small part of the country for a very short period had no offside, your kick through thing is a red herring. There has always been offside and over time the balance has progressively become fairer between attack and defence. Another red herring is this notion the the law was never intended blah blah blah, it doesn't matter what the original intentions were, the only thing that matters now is the current iteration of the law. IFAB want matters of fact; offside, balls over the line, to be black or white and VAR is a way of achieving that and as the balance of offside is now fair between attack and defence the level of measurement is probably required. I find it hard to understand the level of dislike for VAR.

 

If you don't recall people going on about 'daylight' you haven't been involved in a sunday league argument in the 80's when 'their' lineman deliberately flagged for offside.

 

Taken a long time to respond. Yes there has nearly always been offside, it has always been there to prevent what we know as goal hanging, even before the modern laws were.odicied. It is the only reason for the offside law. Clearly you have no understanding of the Sheffield laws, nothing to do with a region, it is where and how the game of association football developed. Involved in Sunday League thanks in the 80s, lines didn't even exist then, it was just the job of the opposition manager to give everything possible to stop the opposition scoring, most of them wouldn't have re ognised the offside law if it came up and bit them in the bum.

[Avenue_Saint]

Stick with it.

 

The big clubs will eventually lose their advantage over smaller clubs.

 

I’m all for VAR

[whelk]

So disappointing. So many pens missed by refs and they are scared to overturn. Every week missing them. Haller not getting one was joke.

Also loads of lunges that should get a red not being overturned when refs are t seeing them.

 

What’s the point? These are what I hoped would improve but all they are doing is ruling goals out for being an armpit’s length offside and handballs that no fcker anywhere sees.

[Batman]

How Leicester maintained 11 players, we will never know

 

That foul on Wilson was horrible!

Likewise, Haller should have won a penalty

 

VAR deffo being reigned in a little here

Edited 1 September, 2019 by Batman

[Whitey Grandad]

In yesterday’s game there was an incident of possible offside again Man Utd (around 37 minutes?) where their right winger looked offside but he flag wasn’t raised leading to us conceding a corner. We know that the assistants have been told to keep their flags down if they are not certain in the belief that if a goal follows imminently the VAR can correct it but what if Man Utd had scored from that corner? VAR would not have reviewed the possible offside because it was in a different phase of play.

[SaintBobby]

I'm increasingly sceptical about VAR.

 

I think I'd limit the use of technology to something that can communicate an almost immediate "objective" decision to the ref (eg goal line technology)

 

A bit like the corner example above, at some point there could be a claim for a defensive handball in the penalty area, ref doesn't award a penalty and the defensive team break and score a "legitimate" goal a few seconds later. The original penalty decision is then reviewed and a penalty awarded and one team goes from 1-0 up to 0-0 and a penalty against them in a matter of about a minute. It might be the "right" decision but it really changes the game.

[Wurzel]

In yesterdayÂ’s game there was an incident of possible offside again Man Utd (around 37 minutes?) where their right winger looked offside but he flag wasnÂ’t raised leading to us conceding a corner. We know that the assistants have been told to keep their flags down if they are not certain in the belief that if a goal follows imminently the VAR can correct it but what if Man Utd had scored from that corner? VAR would not have reviewed the possible offside because it was in a different phase of play.

 

I was listening to 606 on Saturday, they were insisting the opposite, that Premier League has decreed the flag *should* be raised for offside but the referee won't whistle for it unless it's obvious. Guess we'll all get the hang of it eventually.

[Whitey Grandad]

I was listening to 606 on Saturday, they were insisting the opposite, that Premier League has decreed the flag *should* be raised for offside but the referee won't whistle for it unless it's obvious. Guess we'll all get the hang of it eventually.

Interesting, thanks. That still wouldn’t change the situation from yesterday that I described. Player looks offside, assistant flags, referee doesn’t whistle, defenders concede a corner from which the attackers score.

[Fan The Flames]

Taken a long time to respond. Yes there has nearly always been offside, it has always been there to prevent what we know as goal hanging, even before the modern laws were.odicied. It is the only reason for the offside law. Clearly you have no understanding of the Sheffield laws, nothing to do with a region, it is where and how the game of association football developed. Involved in Sunday League thanks in the 80s, lines didn't even exist then, it was just the job of the opposition manager to give everything possible to stop the opposition scoring, most of them wouldn't have re ognised the offside law if it came up and bit them in the bum.

 

Just google it, Sheffield rules were everything to do with a region, they were a regional set of rules and not the basis of the rules of football, they existed for a short period before being ditched by the region for the FA set of rules. Yes they preceded the FA rules and yes both rules co-existed for a short period and they influenced each other but the dominant set of rules were the FA rules, and these never allowed goal hanging. Goal hanging was allowed under Sheffield rules for a short period and was even ditched before their demise. Football has always had offside and slowly over the years the balance has moved from favouring defenders to being equal. They are simply the facts.

 

What are you talking about lines didn't exist in the 80's, chatting ****.

[saintwbu]

I'm increasingly sceptical about VAR.

 

I think I'd limit the use of technology to something that can communicate an almost immediate "objective" decision to the ref (eg goal line technology)

 

A bit like the corner example above, at some point there could be a claim for a defensive handball in the penalty area, ref doesn't award a penalty and the defensive team break and score a "legitimate" goal a few seconds later. The original penalty decision is then reviewed and a penalty awarded and one team goes from 1-0 up to 0-0 and a penalty against them in a matter of about a minute. It might be the "right" decision but it really changes the game.

 

Similar happened in the Nations League - Switzerland v Portugal. Ronaldo penalty appeal, not given, Switzerland go up the other end and get a stonewall penalty. VAR reviews the Ronaldo penalty appeal and give that one instead.

[Fan The Flames]

I'm increasingly sceptical about VAR.

 

I think I'd limit the use of technology to something that can communicate an almost immediate "objective" decision to the ref (eg goal line technology)

 

A bit like the corner example above, at some point there could be a claim for a defensive handball in the penalty area, ref doesn't award a penalty and the defensive team break and score a "legitimate" goal a few seconds later. The original penalty decision is then reviewed and a penalty awarded and one team goes from 1-0 up to 0-0 and a penalty against them in a matter of about a minute. It might be the "right" decision but it really changes the game.

 

This has happened already, it's definitely happened once if not a couple of times.

[John Boy Saint]

Watching the Arsenal game yesterday when they scored the “3rd” goal which was easily offside in the build up and was clear as day instantly with all the lines we watching on TV got to see. It seemed because it was the main game on TV the point was being reiterated for those of us sat at home to be sure why the goal was rubbed out seemed to hold up the game longer than was necessary.

In our game when Greenwood tried to do a Rashford and collapse in the box, and on pitch Dean decided to deny United their continued run of a penalty per game, when the ball went out for our throw in, Dean touched his ear and waved for the throw in, and game, to continue pretty quickly with mere seconds spent: of course that might have been down to Michael Oliver (one of the sharper refs to my mind) confirming the decision correct pretty quickly, that no one noticed. Being at the game I have no idea how it played out on BT but didn’t seem to hold up the game at all.

 

I also spotted the flaw that Whitey mentioned with Rashford ending up in a Utd corner, from behind the goal he looked offside the noise from those in line, both the Kingsland and Itchen pretty much qualified my thought, and then our players gesticulations to the Lino confirmed it. Had Utd scored from the corner I guess it wouldn’t be rubbed out for the offside, as like the Liverpool goal last season where Salah received the ball offside, by the time the ball hit the back of our net the Salah offside was commented on to have been deemed to far back in the phase of play to considered for chalking their goal off.

In a couple of seasons time I doubt VAR decisions will be much of a topic of conversation.

 

Aside from VAR, I noticed we have become much more active as a team in questioning the decision of the referee. Not in the Roy Keane style, but it seemed when a rum decision had gone against us the players were Asking the ref why? For quite a few seasons I thought we have been soft in this department and just rolled on our backs instead of planting seeds in the refs head for the next 50/50. Of course by questioning the ref it does prevent the oppos from being able to take a quick free kick and buys a few more seconds to us to get into better defensive positions.

[magnet]

In yesterday’s game there was an incident of possible offside again Man Utd (around 37 minutes?) where their right winger looked offside but he flag wasn’t raised leading to us conceding a corner. We know that the assistants have been told to keep their flags down if they are not certain in the belief that if a goal follows imminently the VAR can correct it but what if Man Utd had scored from that corner? VAR would not have reviewed the possible offside because it was in a different phase of play.

 

Exactly the same thing happened in the Liverpool game too when Salah went through on Gunn, Gunn saved and it went for a corner. If they had scored no review would of taken place :-(

[rallyboy]

There is nothing wrong with VAR, it's the way it's being utilised as the rules seem to shift slightly from week-to-week at the moment.

Having one of the ref's mates sat there judging them doesn't help, he's not going to want to correct his buddies in public, so some shockers have been allowed to stand.

In cricket they just give the correct call and don't worry about making the umpire look stupid.

Perhaps our refs just aren't that good, at what is a difficult job.

[whelk]

There is nothing wrong with VAR, it's the way it's being utilised as the rules seem to shift slightly from week-to-week at the moment.

Having one of the ref's mates sat there judging them doesn't help, he's not going to want to correct his buddies in public, so some shockers have been allowed to stand.

In cricket they just give the correct call and don't worry about making the umpire look stupid.

Perhaps our refs just aren't that good, at what is a difficult job.

 

It is wrong though as anyone can forgive a ref a sh1t call at pace and not necessarily seen a different angle.

Whole point is that sh1t decisions would be corrected as see all angles etc and not seeing much of that.

 

Kevin Friend took incompetency to new level booking Grealish for diving when he passed the ball and didn’t appeal. Ok VAR can’t overturn a whistle as Palace defenders could stop

[Dark Munster]

Beginning to work very well. Especially today

A complete cluster**** at the women's world cup, but that was a blessing in disguise as the PL learnt from that and are using it properly. In particular making the decisions as quick and non intrusive as possible.

[wadesmith]

This thread should be good when a few have gone against us.

[Lighthouse]

This thread should be good when a few have gone against us.

 

Why? So long as it's the correct decision I see little reason to complain.

[wadesmith]

Why? So long as it's the correct decision I see little reason to complain.

 

Bloody Hell. Twelve years on here & I'm, actually reading the above sentence. Sorry...hard to type...still laughing.... I can't tell if you're being serious... sorry i'm still laughing.....'little reason to complain'...... you're killing me over here!

[Heisenberg]

This thread should be good when a few have gone against us.

 

Every club is same.

 

Decisions for you - ref/var had a decent game

Decisions against - ref/var terrible

 

The JWP handball yesterday didn't get a single mention on our match thread. If that had gone against us......

[Batman]

Every club is same.

 

Decisions for you - ref/var had a decent game

Decisions against - ref/var terrible

 

The JWP handball yesterday didn't get a single mention on our match thread. If that had gone against us......

 

Isn’t that two handballs we could have given away this season?

[beatlesaint]

Isn’t that two handballs we could have given away this season?

 

This is what I dont get. Man City had a goal ruled out against Spurs because the ball brushed the fingernail of one of their players when a cross came in. Yesterday in both City's game and ours there were more "obvious" hand balls yet nothing given in either game.

 

It seems like the refs it will be inconsistant which is what it was supposed to get rid of.

[Useful Idiot]

Any handball which results in an attacking advantage = free kick to the defending team (even if it is unintentional).

 

Defensive handballs only count if they are intentional.

[beatlesaint]

Any handball which results in an attacking advantage = free kick to the defending team (even if it is unintentional).

 

Defensive handballs only count if they are intentional.

 

oh ok, cheers

[Batman]

Is that 3 goals VAR has ruled out in our favour?

Reckon we would have less points without VAR this season!

[benjii]

Is that 3 goals VAR has ruled out in our favour?

Reckon we would have less points without VAR this season!

 

I'd like to think the linesman would have flagged them as they have been pretty blatant.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Is that 3 goals VAR has ruled out in our favour?

Reckon we would have less points without VAR this season!

 

Well worked out mate:lol:

[badgerx16]

Any handball which results in an attacking advantage = free kick to the defending team (even if it is unintentional).

 

Defensive handballs only count if they are intentional.

I think the commentary on MOTD mentioned this when the incident occurred.

[Lighthouse]

I think the commentary on MOTD mentioned this when the incident occurred.

 

It was discussed at length after City’s disallowed winner against Spurs a few weeks ago. I lie the rule in principle but I think it needs a bit of a tweak. The attacking team should only be penalised if the handball changed the trajectory of the ball. In other words if it brushes against somebody’s arm, the goal stands. If it pings off at 45 degrees, then it’s disallowed.

 

In any case, this isn’t a VAR discussion, it’s a rules of the game discussion.

[doddisalegend]

I'd like to think the linesman would have flagged them as they have been pretty blatant.

I wouldn't have bet on it though. The whole reason VAR is in place was because the officials kept missing blatant decisions.

 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[benjii]

I wouldn't have bet on it though. The whole reason VAR is in place was because the officials kept missing blatant decisions.

 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

Well the one at Brighton was as clear as anything. I'm not a big referee defender but I can't believe he and the lino wouldn't have seen that.

[Saint_clark]

Is that 3 goals VAR has ruled out in our favour?

Reckon we would have less points without VAR this season!

Yep, be interesting to see how things end up. I reckon it will show that decisions don't even out over the season and we would end up worse off without VAR.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[benjii]

Yep, be interesting to see how things end up. I reckon it will show that decisions don't even out over the season and we would end up worse off without VAR.

 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

But we'll never know because they don't flag tight offside any more.

[Heisenberg]

Is that 3 goals VAR has ruled out in our favour?

Reckon we would have less points without VAR this season!

 

We've been on the right and lucky side (ref decisions) for a long while.

 

So much so that some still bang on about the Doucoure handball from nearly 2 years ago

 

We have had very few goal or game changing decisions go against us the past few seasons.

 

Long may this last

 

If you cant be good, be lucky

[aintforever]

I think it’s fair to say VAR has been a success so far, the only cock up was the city disallowed goal against Spurs but that was more down to the rule change than VAR.

[saintwbu]

I always wanted VAR. So far, it's doing its job well. Anyone who complains about its use only has to look at the two incidents we have benefitted from, the goal at Brighton and the goal yesterday, the fact that a highly paid professional linesman cannot see those offences without the help of VAR is a real worry and as clear justification as any that it absolutely is required!

[benjii]

I always wanted VAR. So far, it's doing its job well. Anyone who complains about its use only has to look at the two incidents we have benefitted from, the goal at Brighton and the goal yesterday, the fact that a highly paid professional linesman cannot see those offences without the help of VAR is a real worry and as clear justification as any that it absolutely is required!

 

We don’t know if he saw them or not because they are told not to flag.