The United Kingdom and the Death of Boris Johnson as we know it.

[badgerx16]

40 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

A good job?

Have you forgotten his train crash as the chancellor?

 

1 minute ago, SotonianWill said:

in terms of the actual job (not the backstabbing) it has to be said you cannot overturn a long term cost of living crisis and inflation in 2 months as chancellor, many of which were in prime ministerial limbo, so in my view didn’t fully tarnish his political career. 

Having been appointed as Chancellor by BoJo, the next day he joined Priti, Rishi, et al, in calling for Boris to resign. Such loyalty.

 

I wonder if WSS was confusing the tax cheat with Kwasi Kwarteng, the hero of Trussonomics.

[badgerx16]

The IMF says that the UK will be the only major economy to shrink this year, outperformed even by Russia.

[tdmickey3]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The IMF says that the UK will be the only major economy to shrink this year, outperformed even by Russia.

Is it really a surprise with these tory incompetents at the helm?

[Plastic]

37 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The IMF says that the UK will be the only major economy to shrink this year, outperformed even by Russia.

I'm amazed that they are predicting so much growth elsewhere. Goes against many indicators.

[farawaysaint]

On 31/01/2023 at 09:13, Plastic said:

I'm amazed that they are predicting so much growth elsewhere. Goes against many indicators.

The China growth figures seem like a  load of old bollox to me. I know the IMF has some wonderfully smart people but it always feel like China are massaging the numbers and given their current situation I cannot see how those results are possible. 

[Sheaf Saint]

Edit: wrong thread

Edited 2 February, 2023 by Sheaf Saint

[SotonianWill]

fairly interesting yet uneventful sunak interview by piers, learnt nothing new - only that his description of a woman is an “adult human female”. It would help if piers didn’t ask questions like a petulant child

[saint1977]

On 29/01/2023 at 18:40, badgerx16 said:

 

Having been appointed as Chancellor by BoJo, the next day he joined Priti, Rishi, et al, in calling for Boris to resign. Such loyalty.

 

I wonder if WSS was confusing the tax cheat with Kwasi Kwarteng, the hero of Trussonomics.

Couldn’t believe in the queue for the supermarket yesterday that I saw in the i that Truss wants to make a comeback based on pro-growth policies that were condemned as dangerous and 40 years out of date globally. And which we will spend decades paying for. 

Won’t happen but if the swivels tried it again it could be time to get rid of her with civil unrest and force a GE so a PM can be legitimately elected. And yes, I didn’t agree with Brown or May either but at least they tried to get a mandate. Truss and Tufton St loony colleagues on the Tory far right don’t do democracy. 

[AlexLaw76]

No good party election campaign started with a pledge to increase defence spending - more benefits instead.

[sadoldgit]

Biggest dog whistle of the year so far. Yesterday Suella Braverman told us that there are potentially up to 100 million refugees/asylum seekers/illegal immigrants out there…and they “are all coming here”.  Gaslighting on an industrial scale. Typical Tory smoke and mirrors, when in trouble play the immigrant card. It got them Brexit and now they are hoping it will take people’s minds off of the mess the country is in. The trouble is some people still buy this crap.

[Turkish]

On 07/02/2023 at 04:12, AlexLaw76 said:

No good party election campaign started with a pledge to increase defence spending - more benefits instead.

but they have pledged to give £600m to help girls get access to sport, off the back of a strongly worded letter from the lionesses.

[tajjuk]

Turkey has taken in over 5 million refugees, 5 million ffs, yet we have 30-40k come in via boats and act like it's an invasion. The richest countries in the world take in far less refugees than most of the poor ones and we take in far far less compared to most of Europe, considerably less than France, Spain and Germany for example. 

Red meat to the racists, thing is I don't think it's particularly landing anymore, it works for the rabid base but they are a small minority that is shrinking. People are more concerned about the cost of living, inflation, their wages etc. not desperate people coming across on boats that we are supposed to hate for some reason. 

Interesting that they are all attacking Gary Lineker, how dare he have an opinion that criticises the government. Ironically whilst he is comparing their asylum policy to 1930s Germany, they want to silence him from criticising the government, also much like 1930s Germany. 

It's going to be 15 years of Tory government by the time we finally get to oust them in an election and honestly this has to be one of the worst government periods in the history of this country, they have set us back like 25 years, everything is worse, GDP is down, exports are down, cost of living is sky high, wages have been suppressed to all time low levels, waiting lists are through the roof, ambulance response times are the worse ever, the courts are backlogged, there are food shortages, labour shortages, crime is rising, the police, particularly the met are stumbling from scandal to scandal. The 'Great' in Great Britain is becoming ever more ironic, we are like those sad sacks on social media who go around telling everyone how cool they are, when everyone knows if you have to tell everyone you are cool then clearly you are not. 

[Tamesaint]

3 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Turkey has taken in over 5 million refugees, 5 million ffs, yet we have 30-40k come in via boats and act like it's an invasion. The richest countries in the world take in far less refugees than most of the poor ones and we take in far far less compared to most of Europe, considerably less than France, Spain and Germany for example. 

Red meat to the racists, thing is I don't think it's particularly landing anymore, it works for the rabid base but they are a small minority that is shrinking. People are more concerned about the cost of living, inflation, their wages etc. not desperate people coming across on boats that we are supposed to hate for some reason. 

Interesting that they are all attacking Gary Lineker, how dare he have an opinion that criticises the government. Ironically whilst he is comparing their asylum policy to 1930s Germany, they want to silence him from criticising the government, also much like 1930s Germany. 

It's going to be 15 years of Tory government by the time we finally get to oust them in an election and honestly this has to be one of the worst government periods in the history of this country, they have set us back like 25 years, everything is worse, GDP is down, exports are down, cost of living is sky high, wages have been suppressed to all time low levels, waiting lists are through the roof, ambulance response times are the worse ever, the courts are backlogged, there are food shortages, labour shortages, crime is rising, the police, particularly the met are stumbling from scandal to scandal. The 'Great' in Great Britain is becoming ever more ironic, we are like those sad sacks on social media who go around telling everyone how cool they are, when everyone knows if you have to tell everyone you are cool then clearly you are not. 

You missed off the appalling state of our rivers and coastline due to sewage releases.

Is anything better now than it was back in 2010?

[rallyboy]

This is clearly a massive PR campaign to distract from the state of the UK - a transparent subtle blend of lies and hate to call up the easily-led.

A standard three-word slogan that thick people can remember and shout outside a Holiday Inn Express, madly exaggerated stats they can parrot, the creating of an enemy to distract from more important issues, it really is the last hateful throw of the dice from a divisive government that needed a Falklands War and is instead having to create a conflict.

We could have worked with France, we could process much quicker, we could have a functioning Home Office, we could have legal routes and send the criminal elements back to wherever.

But the UK has chosen the only path that gains votes - a faux patriotic war against a made-up enemy, and catastrophic human rights decisions that will leave us standing proud in a dark corner with Russia and Belarus.

I thought better of Rishi, not much, but I did believe he had a shred of integrity when he came in.

He hasn't.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

This is clearly a massive PR campaign to distract from the state of the UK - a transparent subtle blend of lies and hate to call up the easily-led.

A standard three-word slogan that thick people can remember and shout outside a Holiday Inn Express, madly exaggerated stats they can parrot, the creating of an enemy to distract from more important issues, it really is the last hateful throw of the dice from a divisive government that needed a Falklands War and is instead having to create a conflict.

We could have worked with France, we could process much quicker, we could have a functioning Home Office, we could have legal routes and send the criminal elements back to wherever.

But the UK has chosen the only path that gains votes - a faux patriotic war against a made-up enemy, and catastrophic human rights decisions that will leave us standing proud in a dark corner with Russia and Belarus.

I thought better of Rishi, not much, but I did believe he had a shred of integrity when he came in.

He hasn't.

 

All very true. But surely the voters have to take some responsibility?

[tajjuk]

20 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

All very true. But surely the voters have to take some responsibility?

100%, those that voted for them. In the last 6 years it's mainly Brexit voters that should take responsibility, not only for inflicting that self harm on the country in the first place but because the only reason Boris won in 2019 is a huge amount of people put Brexit above everything else, which led to traditional Labour areas voting for Tories. I remember the guy from Sunderland who phoned into a local radio show basically breaking down into tears because he was so baffled the people in his town had elected a Tory MP. 

Also if Labour had found someone less divisive than Corbyn to lead them in 2017 we would have got rid of the Tories then as well, May only managed to form a government with the awful DUP so it wouldn't have taken much more to tip towards a Labour win or at least a coalition, but Corbyn was such an easy figure for the Tories to score points on. I mean they are still using him now, he is still a go to attack for them. 

---------------------------------------------------

Also Sunak had no credibility for me, he was a Brexit true believer, and anyone stupid enough to think Brexit was a good idea, especially someone who had worked in finance and was already in the government with all that information, cannot be credible. 

[whelk]

Express and Mail as to be expected just regularly churning out headlines like - Rishi: I will fix <insert mess>
Imagine being so thick to not blame those in charge for last 13 years for all these crises?

Pissing away money as they so often do, not fixing stuff and claim to be the good custodians contrasting with wasteful Labour.

 

 

 

[saint1977]

Another important sign of the country’s infrastructure and economic prospects in sharp decline - in 2005 the UK was in the top 3 globally for computing after the US and Japan. Today, we are struggling to stay in the top 10 with the likes of Finland and Russia having shot past us.

Yet Sunak and Donelan are still not committing to the EU’s Horizon Europe R&D programme where collaboration would help close some of the gap built up over 13 years and instead of also outlining plans to work more closely through other mechanisms with non-EU partners such as Japan, we have this stupid focus on stopping boats which will achieve nothing of the sort and has actually been worsened by cross-channel cooperation breaking down post-Brexit.

Meanwhile, we have an NHS short of 1.3m clinical and allied vacancies whilst the obsession with meaningless net migration targets goes on, copying Griffin, Tyndall and Farage’s agenda. Pubs and restaurants get can’t enough skilled staff and crops go unpicked. 

The computing is not just an economic performance issue, our borders are virtual as much as the 1945 view of them physically depicted by Braverman and the tabloids, or as the ERG see NI.

I’m a pragmatist and if the evidence pointed to the Tories providing a more effective and efficient country, I’d vote for them. There’s no evidence of that at all, but plenty of soaring costs of living, hospitality and service sector stagnant, financial services hobbled, housing crisis worsened by the Truss/IEA horror experiment, NHS in a far worse state than 2010, public services in ruins, the union in a total mess, and international leverage and soft power cut with slashed budgets for British Council and BBC. Brexiteers love British exceptionalism  - well, there ain’t much exceptional any longer after 13 years of dog whistle shit.

Edited 8 March, 2023 by saint1977

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Typical Tory smoke and mirrors, when in trouble play the immigrant card. 

Some of us remember you doing the same. 

[sadoldgit]

16 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Some of us remember you doing the same. 

Feel free to show us the post. You are no better than the people you help elect. Spout lies for distraction. If I were a rabid gammon like yourself Duckie, why do you spend so much time attacking me?

[whelk]

Starmer is a leftie lawyer. Sunak is embarrassingly pathetic at PMQs

[Tamesaint]

21 minutes ago, whelk said:

Starmer is a leftie lawyer. Sunak is embarrassingly pathetic at PMQs

Whenever Sunak (or Boris or Truss come to think of it) comes up with that retort , you know that he is struggling. The same applies to the Jeremy Corbyn taunt.

Starmer had Sunak over a barrel at PMQs today. All the Tories talk about is how tough they are on immigration and how the system is in a mess (of their own making). Starmer was just showing the hollowness of their claims so Sunak had to come out with the leftie lawyer rubbish.

 

[tajjuk]

Braverman literally said 'Billions' want to come here, billions, so like one quarter of the entire world's population apparently want to come to a tiny country in the north of Europe, that is cold, wet and has been run into the ground, yeh I don't think so. The arrogance alone on that quote is staggering, again pretending the country is so great, whilst at the same time pretending the country has a load of problems caused by immigrants. Just baffling levels of gaslighting going on.

The ignorance from people on this issue though just makes me so angry, so much just flat out wrongness spouted. 

1. Immigration to most countries is a net gain, studies have shown that immigrants tend to cause less crime, use less services and pay more in taxes than native populations.

2. We literally have a labour shortage, many industries are crying out for more workers, we huge skill gaps as well, and many of these asylum seekers could fill gaps. I've seen interviews with people stuck in limbo in the asylum system, living in hotels, and these people were like teachers, engineers, nurses etc.  So it makes a mockery of the 'these are economic migrants not refugees' argument that is typically banded about, we need more workers and what is an economic migrant if not some who want to come and work!

3. This 'economic migrants' argument is based on mainly the Albanians, whilst ignoring that the vast majority coming across are coming from actual war-torn place or places with awful regimes (particularly places we have fucked up through our interventions) like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria etc. Afghanistan where people working with the British army were left to fend on their own and at mercy of the taliban, but hey we rescued some dogs! 

4. The 'France is a safe country' stupid argument. There is nothing in international law on refugees (which we not only signed up to but helped shape post-WW2 and in the forming of the UN, back when even right wing politicians had some decency about them) that says they have to stop in the first 'safe' country and nor should they, factors lack language and family will have a big impact of where refugees and asylum seekers go. People who may speak English or some English or have family here will of course try to re-start their lives here rather in a random country where they don't speak the language or have any support network. These are people with absolutely nothing to their names in many cases, but apparently it is fine to force them to settle in France or Germany, even if they speak English and have family here...

5. Then there is the fact that most European countries take in more asylum seekers than us, quite large amounts more, iirc both Italy and Spain take in many more than us, despite us being more wealthy than those countries.

6. The 'we are full up' nonsense argument, because yeh a country of 67 million people is going to get tipped over the edge by 100k migrants somehow. Those waiting lists, lack of services etc. all over the country are down to a small handful of people crossing the channel on boats, yeh that must be it, not the years of tory mismanagement, stupid austerity policies, stealth privatisation, lack of staff, none of that has crippled the NHS, nah its the immigrants. 

7. The 'illegal' immigrant tag, when asylum seekers and refugees by law are allowed to apply for asylum however they enter the country, thus they cannot be 'illegal'. And the fact that safe and legal ports of entry just don't exist, 'legal' routes of asylum that we do have are restricted and caveated because in reality the Tories don't want anyone coming here and it is easier to vilify these people if they come across in small boats, rather than them being allowed to come via trains, ferries, planes etc. and have proper systems for applying for asylum. 

It is just disgusting they are trying this again and even more disgusting some people buy into it.  

The real sad thing is that if they actually fixed the system (processing applications better, clearing the back log, safe routes for asylum, tackling the gangs etc. etc.) then they wouldn't be able to use it for their divide and conqueror, distract from the real problems strategy. 

Edited 8 March, 2023 by tajjuk

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Braverman literally said 'Billions' want to come here, billions, so like one quarter of the entire world's population apparently want to come to a tiny country in the north of Europe, that is cold, wet and has been run into the ground, yeh I don't think so. The arrogance alone on that quote is staggering, again pretending the country is so great, whilst at the same time pretending the country has a load of problems caused by immigrants. Just baffling levels of gaslighting going on.

The ignorance from people on this issue though just makes me so angry, so much just flat out wrongness spouted. 

1. Immigration to most countries is a net gain, studies have shown that immigrants tend to cause less crime, use less services and pay more in taxes than native populations.

2. We literally have a labour shortage, many industries are crying out for more workers, we huge skill gaps as well, and many of these asylum seekers could fill gaps. I've seen interviews with people stuck in limbo in the asylum system, living in hotels, and these people were like teachers, engineers, nurses etc.  So it makes a mockery of the 'these are economic migrants not refugees' argument that is typically banded about, we need more workers and what is an economic migrant if not some who want to come and work!

3. This 'economic migrants' argument is based on mainly the Albanians, whilst ignoring that the vast majority coming across are coming from actual war-torn place or places with awful regimes (particularly places we have fucked up through our interventions) like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria etc. Afghanistan where people working with the British army were left to fend on their own and at mercy of the taliban, but hey we rescued some dogs! 

4. The 'France is a safe country' stupid argument. There is nothing in international law on refugees (which we not only signed up to but helped shape post-WW2 and in the forming of the UN, back when even right wing politicians had some decency about them) that says they have to stop in the first 'safe' country and nor should they, factors lack language and family will have a big impact of where refugees and asylum seekers go. People who may speak English or some English or have family here will of course try to re-start their lives here rather in a random country where they don't speak the language or have any support network. These are people with absolutely nothing to their names in many cases, but apparently it is fine to force them to settle in France or Germany, even if they speak English and have family here...

5. Then there is the fact that most European countries take in more asylum seekers than us, quite large amounts more, iirc both Italy and Spain take in many more than us, despite us being more wealthy than those countries.

6. The 'we are full up' nonsense argument, because yeh a country of 67 million people is going to get tipped over the edge by 100k migrants somehow. Those waiting lists, lack of services etc. all over the country are down to a small handful of people crossing the channel on boats, yeh that must be it, not the years of tory mismanagement, stupid austerity policies, stealth privatisation, lack of staff, none of that has crippled the NHS, nah its the immigrants. 

7. The 'illegal' immigrant tag, when asylum seekers and refugees by law are allowed to apply for asylum however they enter the country, thus they cannot be 'illegal'. And the fact that safe and legal ports of entry just don't exist, 'legal' routes of asylum that we do have are restricted and caveated because in reality the Tories don't want anyone coming here and it is easier to vilify these people if they come across in small boats, rather than them being allowed to come via trains, ferries, planes etc. and have proper systems for applying for asylum. 

It is just disgusting they are trying this again and even more disgusting some people buy into it.  

The real sad thing is that if they actually fixed the system (processing applications better, clearing the back log, safe routes for asylum, tackling the gangs etc. etc.) then they wouldn't be able to use it for their divide and conqueror, distract from the real problems strategy. 

We are more than full up already. Don't you understand this? It's not 100,000 migramnt is it. It's 500,000 a year, every year. Where are thy going to live? I'll tell you now that I am not going to put them up in my house nor pay for them to live somewhere else.

[tajjuk]

24 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We are more than full up already. Don't you understand this? It's not 100,000 migramnt is it. It's 500,000 a year, every year. Where are thy going to live? I'll tell you now that I am not going to put them up in my house nor pay for them to live somewhere else.

It's not 500k, it hasn't been 500k any year, net migration even at it's highest is like 350k, the average over the last 10 years is around 220 - 250k and most of that is approved, we gave over 300k work visas to non-EUs in 2022 alone and nearly 500k student visas. 

It's only peaked this year because we specifically took in Ukrainians and people from Hong Kong, with special visa systems applied.

Also the Tories have killed an extra 330k people in recent years due to their austerity policies and there were a huge amount of excess deaths due to their mismanagement of COVID, again in the hundreds of thousands. 

Population growth is 0.34% and that includes net migration, how the hell are 'full up' on no metric does that assessment make any sense. 

45k crossed the channel on boats last year and people applying for Asylum was 89k last year.

89k, how is that 'filling up' the country exactly? And some of those will be deported. 

[Sheaf Saint]

5 hours ago, rallyboy said:

This is clearly a massive PR campaign to distract from the state of the UK - a transparent subtle blend of lies and hate to call up the easily-led.

 

And it's obviously working. I was forced to sit through a Jeremy Vine radio phone-in while waiting at the docs the other day where they were discussing this, and with a depressing inevitability some knuckle dragging moron came on and said he will definitely vote Tory at the next election if they bring in this policy.

[badgerx16]

In the last few years, excluding Ukrainians fleeing the war, the 3 largest nationality groups of immigrants are Indians, Pakistanis, and Poles, none of which groups cross the channel on small boats, all of whom are legally entering the country.

How many times under the Tories have we had "the solution" to immigration, only for it not to deliver and have to be returned to the drawing board ?

This current attempt smells of "Tell a lie, make it big, keep on saying it".

 

Edited 8 March, 2023 by badgerx16

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

And it's obviously working. I was forced to sit through a Jeremy Vine radio phone-in while waiting at the docs the other day where they were discussing this, and with a depressing inevitability some knuckle dragging moron came on and said he will definitely vote Tory at the next election if they bring in this policy.

Someone like that will always vote Tory anyway, it's not going to work IMO and it's pretty desperate, also considering they are fixing a 'mess' that they have been in charge off and pretty much Labour and all the media outlets are pointing this out. Most people don't particularly care about immigration, it is a minority issue at its peak, in times of economic issues it becomes very low priority for most of the electorate.  Not many swing voters are going to be swayed by this policy, it also doesn't work with Tory heartland places which is one of the places they are failing the biggest, rural communities are being screwed by the issues happening to farmers and the economy, they don't give a flying monkeys about small boats, likely most of them will welcome some migrants to come in and work in the fields. Your richer tory voters also don't care about immigration, they are more concerned around investments and taxes, of which investments are currently low and taxes are high so they are struggling there as well. 

Also this won't even come in, it is pretty much illegal. You can't deport genuine asylum seekers and something like 80% of asylum applications are approved anyway, and they are trying to fast track them, so likely that percentage will go up. 

All this policy shows is how desperate and out of ideas they are. The Tory party since 2016 has basically 3 go to areas to try to convince people to vote for them, Brexit, Corbyn and immigration. Brexit is now essentially done, and is a clear failure (with most of the country now regretting it) so they can't campaign on that. Despite their best efforts of trying to drag him into the conversation Corbyn barely exists as part of the Labour party and immigration is not only a low priority area for swing voters generally and even more so in times of economic difficulty, they have been in charge of it for 13 years and it was supposed to get even more in control since Brexit, so its a stupid strategy, by highlighting it you are basically reminding people of the mess they have made of it. 

 

Edited 8 March, 2023 by tajjuk

[The Left Back]

Other than one troll-shaped nibble from the Farage fan boy, this is an uninterrupted stream of anti government sentiment. For balance please could someone come on here and have a crack at defending what’s happening…

Anyone?

[Sheaf Saint]

46 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

Other than one troll-shaped nibble from the Farage fan boy, this is an uninterrupted stream of anti government sentiment. For balance please could someone come on here and have a crack at defending what’s happening…

Anyone?

[whelk]

Surprised the little sheep Batman hasn’t been on howling about Gary Lineker

[Whitey Grandad]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

It's not 500k, it hasn't been 500k any year, net migration even at it's highest is like 350k, the average over the last 10 years is around 220 - 250k and most of that is approved, we gave over 300k work visas to non-EUs in 2022 alone and nearly 500k student visas. 

It's only peaked this year because we specifically took in Ukrainians and people from Hong Kong, with special visa systems applied.

Also the Tories have killed an extra 330k people in recent years due to their austerity policies and there were a huge amount of excess deaths due to their mismanagement of COVID, again in the hundreds of thousands. 

Population growth is 0.34% and that includes net migration, how the hell are 'full up' on no metric does that assessment make any sense. 

45k crossed the channel on boats last year and people applying for Asylum was 89k last year.

89k, how is that 'filling up' the country exactly? And some of those will be deported. 

That’s the ones you know about.

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That’s the ones you know about.

According to the Home Office less than 50 thousand have crossed the channel in small boats in the last 12 months, that is at best less than 5% of immigration into the country over that period. If immigration is really a problem, they are 'fixing' the wrong thing.

[Whitey Grandad]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

According to the Home Office less than 50 thousand have crossed the channel in small boats in the last 12 months, that is at best less than 5% of immigration into the country over that period. If immigration is really a problem, they are 'fixing' the wrong thing.

They go for the headlines to try to convince their voters that they are doing something.

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, The Left Back said:

Other than one troll-shaped nibble from the Farage fan boy, this is an uninterrupted stream of anti government sentiment. For balance please could someone come on here and have a crack at defending what’s happening…

Anyone?

Yeah, I'm not going to try and defend it but what I will say is it would be unwise of any politician to underestimate the strength of feeling around immigration and particularly in certain demographics.  Not saying I agree but it's a reality.  Talk to most older people, or poorer people and immigration will strike a chord.  It's an emotive issue and people generally vote emotionally. 

 

Certainly worked for Trump in 2016 and I'd argue it was the single biggest thing that contributed to Brexit.  Most people knew that "take back control" had most resonance when it came to borders and controlling immigration - it had less effect when people talked about it in relation to our own laws because they couldn't name a single law they would repeal.  They didn't need to be a genius to work out what controlling our borders meant.  In fact, controlling immigration isn't even a stupid idea - it's self defeating and nuts to vilify anyone if they mention an immigration policy.

I voted remain and I agree with all the arguments about the benefits of immigration so I'm not defending this government - just pointing out that, as a tactic, it's not that stupid and will convince some people to vote Tory.  Don't think it'll work this time because the economy is down the pan and people are sick of the Tories (or at least I hope so).

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Feel free to show us the post. You are no better than the people you help elect. Spout lies for distraction. If I were a rabid gammon like yourself Duckie, why do you spend so much time attacking me?

You know exactly the posts I’m on about, you were called out by many posters, and I’ve no intention of re posting your horrendous racism. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

 In fact, controlling immigration isn't even a stupid idea - it's self defeating and nuts to vilify anyone if they mention an immigration policy.

 

Correct. Finally some common sense. 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, revolution saint said:

Yeah, I'm not going to try and defend it but what I will say is it would be unwise of any politician to underestimate the strength of feeling around immigration and particularly in certain demographics.  Not saying I agree but it's a reality.  Talk to most older people, or poorer people and immigration will strike a chord.  It's an emotive issue and people generally vote emotionally. 

 

Certainly worked for Trump in 2016 and I'd argue it was the single biggest thing that contributed to Brexit.  Most people knew that "take back control" had most resonance when it came to borders and controlling immigration - it had less effect when people talked about it in relation to our own laws because they couldn't name a single law they would repeal.  They didn't need to be a genius to work out what controlling our borders meant.  In fact, controlling immigration isn't even a stupid idea - it's self defeating and nuts to vilify anyone if they mention an immigration policy.

I voted remain and I agree with all the arguments about the benefits of immigration so I'm not defending this government - just pointing out that, as a tactic, it's not that stupid and will convince some people to vote Tory.  Don't think it'll work this time because the economy is down the pan and people are sick of the Tories (or at least I hope so).

indeed and cautionary tale from 1992. Good series of documentaries on iPlayer - Century of Self by Adam Curtis . Just watching episode 4 and people’s individual needs not ideals and how Clinton and then Blair had to address to win. Relying on sympathy for immigrants’ plight is folly
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00gj4k1

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

indeed and cautionary tale from 1992. Good series of documentaries on iPlayer - Century of Self by Adam Curtis . Just watching episode 4 and people’s individual needs not ideals and how Clinton and then Blair had to address to win. Relying on sympathy for immigrants’ plight is folly
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00gj4k1

Cheers, I'll have a look at that.  Quite like Adam Curtis, always interesting although I often struggle to follow his point.  HyperNormalisation was fascinating but baffling in equal measure.

[whelk]

8 hours ago, revolution saint said:

Cheers, I'll have a look at that.  Quite like Adam Curtis, always interesting although I often struggle to follow his point.  HyperNormalisation was fascinating but baffling in equal measure.

They are interesting. Think made in 2002 but highlights the manipulation of the masses by creating consumerism. Signund Freud’s nephew ensuring  we  are kept docile wanting things we don’t need.

[tajjuk]

13 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That’s the ones you know about.

That is such a deflecting answer, it clearly shows you can't argue with the figures. 

If there are ones 'not known about' as you claim then why are they not doing something about that? if that was a genuine problem then that surely needs fixing more than the boats which represent a relatively small amount of our immigration, are mainly asylum seekers (despite the claims they are illegal economic migrants) and most of them get their asylum claims approved.

Simple fact is there is no 'invasion', we are not 'full up', immigration is not 'out of control', 100s or million or 'billions' are not coming here, the rhetoric around this 'issue' is basically pure lies. There are much more sensible solutions to easing the problem, small as it is, than vilifying the people on the boats. 

Based on the numbers (~50k crossing in boats, around 80-90% asylum claims approved) we are talking single figure thousands of people here, all this attention, all this apparent problem that the country is so concerned about, the whole government policy being focused on right now, is for about as many people that could fit into one end of St Marys. 

This is nothing more than a political stunt, using desperate people, who are in fact do nothing wrong, as red meat to stir up racists, and treating them as basically criminals whilst literally going against 70 years of refugee and human rights laws. These proposals are so bad, as the SNP leader pointed out, that they will make women sex trafficked into the UK on those boats against their will, criminals not victims. 

Edited 9 March, 2023 by tajjuk

[The Left Back]

13 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Correct. Finally some common sense. 

Correct?  Who are you, Clive Myrie on Mastermind?

No one is suggesting there shouldn't be an effective immigration policy and process.  But anyone suggesting that is what the lovely Suella's agenda is must be either deluded or cut from similar cloth.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, tajjuk said:

That is such a deflecting answer, it clearly shows you can't argue with the figures. 

If there are ones 'not known about' as you claim then why are they not doing something about that? if that was a genuine problem then that surely needs fixing more than the boats which represent a relatively small amount of our immigration, are mainly asylum seekers (despite the claims they are illegal economic migrants) and most of them get their asylum claims approved.

Simple fact is there is no 'invasion', we are not 'full up', immigration is not 'out of control', 100s or million or 'billions' are not coming here, the rhetoric around this 'issue' is basically pure lies. There are much more sensible solutions to easing the problem, small as it is, than vilifying the people on the boats. 

Based on the numbers (~50k crossing in boats, around 80-90% asylum claims approved) we are talking single figure thousands of people here, all this attention, all this apparent problem that the country is so concerned about, the whole government policy being focused on right now, is for about as many people that could fit into one end of St Marys. 

This is nothing more than a political stunt, using desperate people, who are in fact do nothing wrong, as red meat to stir up racists, and treating them as basically criminals whilst literally going against 70 years of refugee and human rights laws. These proposals are so bad, as the SNP leader pointed out, that they will make women sex trafficked into the UK on those boats against their will, criminals not victims. 

Let’s start with the population of the UK. What is your best estimate?

[sadoldgit]

15 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You know exactly the posts I’m on about, you were called out by many posters, and I’ve no intention of re posting your horrendous racism. 

“Horrendous racism?” That’s a bit rich coming from the resident Farage enabler! So which is it Duckie? One minute you are labelling me a pinko liberal and the next you are lumping me in with your coterie of right wing reactionary knee jerkers. You can’t have it both ways buddy. If I am such a horrendous racist how come I spend my time calling out the abhorrent racist policies being pushed by the last two Home Secretaries, Patel and Braverman? Surely if I was such a racist I would be supporting them? If I was such a racist then why would I post in support of minority racial and religious groups? I know logic isn’t the strong point of people who voted for the likes of Johnson and Farage, but surely even you, in your skunk induced haze, can see you are talking “pony”. You are using the same tactic as the people you vote for and Trump use, stick a label on someone that isn’t remotely true but appeals to those of a far right mentality and keep pushing it so that it becomes “true”. It is currently being used to denigrate Keir Starmer with “Lefty Lawyer”.  What is a lawyer but someone who applies and upholds the law. Not a bad thing surely? But stick “Lefty” in front of it and suddenly you have a pejorative term and some who becomes, to you lot, an “enemy of the people” (just like the judges who decided that packing asylum seekers off to Africa was not legal). By their own admission the current bill to treat migrants as criminals might fall foul of international law. The law is the law, but all of a sudden, when it doesn’t suit the far right (your) mentality, the “Left” is dragged into the picture and front pages of outrage on the Mail and Express follow like night follows day.

I am no more a racist than you are woke as anyone reading this forum for any length of time knows, so carry on calling women “chicks” or “ten pinters”, Irish people “Micks” and anyone left of Genghis Khan “Pinkos” but please engage your brain a bit more before posting such “pony”.

[badgerx16]

Soggy, they want to play their childish playground game, based on a deliberately misinterpreted phrase, because it deflects their own opinions.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, The Left Back said:

Correct?  Who are you, Clive Myrie on Mastermind?

No one is suggesting there shouldn't be an effective immigration policy and process.  But anyone suggesting that is what the lovely Suella's agenda is must be either deluded or cut from similar cloth.

He is the exactly the type of soppy fucker that gets a hard on when Sunak mentions leftie lawyer. 

 

 

[LuckyNumber7]

4 hours ago, tajjuk said:

That is such a deflecting answer, it clearly shows you can't argue with the figures. 

If there are ones 'not known about' as you claim then why are they not doing something about that? if that was a genuine problem then that surely needs fixing more than the boats which represent a relatively small amount of our immigration, are mainly asylum seekers (despite the claims they are illegal economic migrants) and most of them get their asylum claims approved.

Simple fact is there is no 'invasion', we are not 'full up', immigration is not 'out of control', 100s or million or 'billions' are not coming here, the rhetoric around this 'issue' is basically pure lies. There are much more sensible solutions to easing the problem, small as it is, than vilifying the people on the boats. 

Based on the numbers (~50k crossing in boats, around 80-90% asylum claims approved) we are talking single figure thousands of people here, all this attention, all this apparent problem that the country is so concerned about, the whole government policy being focused on right now, is for about as many people that could fit into one end of St Marys. 

This is nothing more than a political stunt, using desperate people, who are in fact do nothing wrong, as red meat to stir up racists, and treating them as basically criminals whilst literally going against 70 years of refugee and human rights laws. These proposals are so bad, as the SNP leader pointed out, that they will make women sex trafficked into the UK on those boats against their will, criminals not victims. 

Why have borders at all eh? Let's just let everyone in who wants to come. It's not like we have a shortage of available land and housing.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

“Horrendous racism?” That’s a bit rich coming from the resident Farage enabler! So which is it Duckie? One minute you are labelling me a pinko liberal and the next you are lumping me in with your coterie of right wing reactionary knee jerkers. You can’t have it both ways buddy. If I am such a horrendous racist how come I spend my time calling out the abhorrent racist policies being pushed by the last two Home Secretaries, Patel and Braverman? Surely if I was such a racist I would be supporting them? If I was such a racist then why would I post in support of minority racial and religious groups? I know logic isn’t the strong point of people who voted for the likes of Johnson and Farage, but surely even you, in your skunk induced haze, can see you are talking “pony”. You are using the same tactic as the people you vote for and Trump use, stick a label on someone that isn’t remotely true but appeals to those of a far right mentality and keep pushing it so that it becomes “true”. It is currently being used to denigrate Keir Starmer with “Lefty Lawyer”.  What is a lawyer but someone who applies and upholds the law. Not a bad thing surely? But stick “Lefty” in front of it and suddenly you have a pejorative term and some who becomes, to you lot, an “enemy of the people” (just like the judges who decided that packing asylum seekers off to Africa was not legal). By their own admission the current bill to treat migrants as criminals might fall foul of international law. The law is the law, but all of a sudden, when it doesn’t suit the far right (your) mentality, the “Left” is dragged into the picture and front pages of outrage on the Mail and Express follow like night follows day.

I am no more a racist than you are woke as anyone reading this forum for any length of time knows, so carry on calling women “chicks” or “ten pinters”, Irish people “Micks” and anyone left of Genghis Khan “Pinkos” but please engage your brain a bit more before posting such “pony”.

💤💤💤

[Lord Duckhunter]

37 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

Why have borders at all eh? Let's just let everyone in who wants to come. It's not like we have a shortage of available land and housing.

Let’s let everyone in who crosses the channel in a small boat, that’ll stop more people doing so. 
 

 

[revolution saint]

3 hours ago, The Left Back said:

Correct?  Who are you, Clive Myrie on Mastermind?

No one is suggesting there shouldn't be an effective immigration policy and process.  But anyone suggesting that is what the lovely Suella's agenda is must be either deluded or cut from similar cloth.

I'll answer if I may as LD had quoted me and I don't actually think you and I really disagree.

My point was simply that the tough stance, the rhetoric and the three word slogans do resonate with large parts of the population.  The policies themselves may well be rubbish but from a Tory point of view that's almost irrelevant if people believe and like what they're saying.  Tajjuk had a really good post yesterday and I didn't disagree with it much at all except when it came to the idea that for most people immigration isn't that much of a big deal.  I think it is.  The average person doesn't watch the news and doesn't see the front bench rip the government apart, doesn't know the difference between asylum seekers and migration but they have the perception that immigration is out of control and something needs to be done.  Slogans like "Stop the boats" both reinforce the perception and also suggest they're doing something about it.

When you get Gary Lineker likening the situation to 30's Germany, it's not useful and does nothing to persuade people to his point of view.  Instead it hardens positions and people start to believe the liberal elite argument.  

As for the effective immigration policy and process - how does free movement of people within the EU fit in with that if you were a remainer?  You can absolutely make a case for it being a positive thing but very difficult to say we're in control of immigration if that's what we would want.  Obviously I realise it's not what anyone is offering right now - just pointing out what has been argued and what people disliked.

Anyway, I just think it's a bit dangerous to take this stuff lightly.