The United Kingdom and the Death of Boris Johnson as we know it.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

Let's see if Durham Police reopen the case into Cummings as well, or have they just caved into to political pressure, as I suspect.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You don’t half come out with some old pony. FPTP doesn’t benefit the Tories any more than it benefits Labour. In fact it takes on average less votes to elect a labour MP than a Tory one (although the Tories winning in the red wall and losing some of their traditional heartlands, together with boundary changes have reduced this somewhat). FPTP favours both big parties equally. Instead of blaming the system, try and understand that the reason we have a Tory PM, is because more people wanted to be represented by a Tory MP than any other party.  

It benefits the Tories because they have got the right wing vote tied up, whereas the centre and left is split between Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and Greens.

In the 2019 election, a lot more people voted for those 4 parties combined than voted Conservative. But because of the FPTP system, despite only getting 46% of the popular vote share the Tories got 56% of the seats in Westminster and thus a large majority. 

It's an outdated system that is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was) because it results in the majority of the electorate becoming effectively disenfranchised.

Edited 6 May, 2022 by Sheaf Saint

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It benefits the Tories because they have got the right wing vote tied up, whereas the centre and left is split between Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and Greens.

In the 2019 election, a lot more people voted for those 4 parties combined than voted Conservative. But because of the FPTP system, despite only getting 46% of the popular vote share the Tories got 56% of the seats in Westminster and thus a large majority. 

It's an outdated system that is no longer for for purpose (if it ever was) because it results in the majority of the electorate becoming effectively disenfranchised.

Did you believe this around 2001?

No need to reply, I am sure you will say yes anyway.

[revolution saint]

1 hour ago, saint1977 said:

I start with the caveat that I’ve not lived in Soton for 20 years but there are many familiar faces amongst the councillors. What I found was that there were decent individual members who could work cross party and others who were siloed to their little fiefdom and didn’t give a toss about the city area as whole. The dynamics within the parties were terrible so you effectively had six or seven parties in effect within the cabinet. Hence there’s never really been a single voice as there’s been in other areas who do attract investment, well before the levelling up agenda. 

All of 3 main parties have led the council at different points but none have made significant inroads into issues which haven’t changed since I did live there - transport, education, skills agenda, regeneration (West Quay has been a mixed bag) and inward investment, which has traditionally under-performed. Soton Uni is losing significant student numbers every year recently which is a big economic risk. 

The light rail transport system if the authorities had the courage to go for it, would have helped, like Newcastle and Sunderland have with the metro, but a Solent version. 

I don't think that's true unless you mean Solent?  I've no idea what their numbers are but UoS numbers are up as far as I'm aware.

[Sheaf Saint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Did you believe this around 2001?

No need to reply, I am sure you will say yes anyway.

No, because in 2001 I was still in my 20s and not paying the slightest bit of attention to politics.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That's a fabulous idea and badly needed but this government won't put up the money for it. The South is ignored and any transport investment goes up North. Hampshire County Council had extensive plans for one twenty years ago but it all got stamped on from above. Now this government is threatening Southampton City Council with fines for breaching air quality. There was even a three line whip to vote down the people mover proposal. A three line whip !

There was a proposal for a rail link through Fareham to Gosport and under the harbour to Portsmouth but that got trodden down too. This whole south Hampshire area is crying out for a light rail/ tram system but down here we are just seen as cash cows to be milked.

What ever happened to that South Coast Motorway from Devon to Dover?

Lol, if you think transport investment is "going up north". You should try the trans-pennine route.

[badgerx16]

54 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Did you believe this around 2001?

No need to reply, I am sure you will say yes anyway.

FPTP is anachronistic and has been unfit for purpose for at least 40 years. There's a reason why all 3 devolved assemblies don't use it

 

[Sheaf Saint]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Lol, if you think transport investment is "going up north". You should try the trans-pennine route.

Was just thinking the same.

It's 2022 and we're STILL waiting for the mainline through Sheffield to be electrified. And to nobody's surprise, the planned extension of HS2 to Sheffield and Leeds has been scrapped.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It benefits the Tories because they have got the right wing vote tied up, whereas the centre and left is split between Labour, Lib Dem, SNP and Greens.

In the 2019 election, a lot more people voted for those 4 parties combined than voted Conservative. But because of the FPTP system, despite only getting 46% of the popular vote share the Tories got 56% of the seats in Westminster and thus a large majority. 

It's an outdated system that is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was) because it results in the majority of the electorate becoming effectively disenfranchised.

This. The whole system is just out of date and not fit for purpose.

Any system that gives us a choice between Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the country is just fucked.

[Sheaf Saint]

 

With 74/200 councils still to declare. 

I can't wait to see how the Tories are going to try and put a positive spin on this. Should be amusing.

[Fan The Flames]

I grew up in Worthing, it was a political dessert, blue as far as the eye could see, with the Lib Dems as the only hope. Today they have 23 Labour councillors and have won overall control for the first time ever. I never thought I would see that happen.

[Fan The Flames]

2 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

 

With 74/200 councils still to declare. 

I can't wait to see how the Tories are going to try and put a positive spin on this. Should be amusing.

Blah blah blah big decisions, vaccines, Ukraine blah blah mid term blah blah they want us to get on sorting out the cost of living crisis blah blah blah.

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I grew up in Worthing, it was a political dessert, blue as far as the eye could see, with the Lib Dems as the only hope. Today they have 23 Labour councillors and have won overall control for the first time ever. I never thought I would see that happen.

The other big surprise is the Tories losing their majority in West Oxfordshire, which includes David Cameron's constituency of Witney.

Rural Oxfordshire is about as Tory as it's possible to get, so losing that is huge.

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The other big surprise is the Tories losing their majority in West Oxfordshire, which includes David Cameron's constituency of Witney.

Rural Oxfordshire is about as Tory as it's possible to get, so losing that is huge.

Worthing can in part be explained by people moving along the coast from the more left Brighton. I wonder if this is the thing in West Oxfordshire?

Labour still needs to reconnect with the red wall voters, or maybe this is the start of a political flip in the country.

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

 

In the 2019 election, a lot more people voted for those 4 parties combined than voted Conservative. But because of the FPTP system, despite only getting 46% of the popular vote share the Tories got 56% of the seats in Westminster and thus a large majority. 

It's an outdated system that is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was) because it results in the majority of the electorate becoming effectively disenfranchised.

The alternative disenfranchises large areas of the country. London, Manchester and other population areas will dominate politics even more than they do now. More areas of the country thought a Tory would represent their area better than any other party.
 

But that’s just my opinion, and there’s a legitimate debate to be had. But, the Lib Dems had an opportunity to change our system, but decided ministerial limos were more important. They’ve spent all my adult life wanting to hold the balance of power & through it changing the system. When they did, they bent over and let the Tories shaft them with a referendum on a ridiculous version of PR that never had a hope in hell of winning. 
 

 

[badgerx16]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

............... there’s a legitimate debate to be had. But, the Lib Dems had an opportunity to change our system, but decided ministerial limos were more important. They’ve spent all my adult life wanting to hold the balance of power & through it changing the system. When they did, they bent over and let the Tories shaft them with a referendum on a ridiculous version of PR that never had a hope in hell of winning.

This in spades.

[moonraker]

8 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Did you believe this around 2001?

No need to reply, I am sure you will say yes anyway.

I’ve believed it since I learnt to think for myself, so 50 plus years, FPTP is more outdated than Farton Park

Edited 6 May, 2022 by moonraker

[Lord Duckhunter]

On 09/12/2021 at 18:20, sadoldgit said:

Once allegation(s) are made it is their job to investigate and to start to gather evidence.

 

Anybody with a shred of integrity would resign. Fortunately for most of his career path having honesty and integrity have not been an issue for him

Do you think Starmer should resign?
 

After all you called for Boris to do so prior to him receiving any fines. I’m fact you called for him to resign before the police had even investigated. Now the police are investigating Sir Kier I presume you think he should go.

Edited 7 May, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[Weston Super Saint]

 

41 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Do you think Starmer should resign?
 

After all you called for Boris to do so prior to him receiving any fines. I’m fact you called for him to resign before the police had even investigated. Now the police are investigating Sir Kier I presume you think he should go.

 

Absolutely no doubt that Soggy will be dusting off his writing stand and Mont Blanc pen to pester his local MP once more, demanding that another party leader should do the honourable thing and resign.

 

On 14/04/2022 at 13:33, sadoldgit said:

I wrote to my MP about the Johnson situation and said that he needs to resign. 

 

[whelk]

So funny the little gammon hard ons for the non-story. Desperate obedient servants

[CB Fry]

13 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

But that’s just my opinion, and there’s a legitimate debate to be had. But, the Lib Dems had an opportunity to change our system, but decided ministerial limos were more important. They’ve spent all my adult life wanting to hold the balance of power & through it changing the system. When they did, they bent over and let the Tories shaft them with a referendum on a ridiculous version of PR that never had a hope in hell of winning. 

As opposed to the alternative reality where they don't accept ministerial limos and then get no referendum on any change to the electoral system at all. 

 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Do you think Starmer should resign?
 

After all you called for Boris to do so prior to him receiving any fines. I’m fact you called for him to resign before the police had even investigated. Now the police are investigating Sir Kier I presume you think he should go.

I called for Johnson to resign because he made the rules and broke them multiple times (which was pretty obvious even to a dyed in the wool gammon like you). Johnson should resign for lying to Parliament.

As for “Beergate.” Durham police had already investigated it and found that no rules had been broken. Now, having been hounded by the right wing press for days, they have given in and are doing so again. Let’s wait and see what this “new evidence” is shall we? 
 

Not sure how you manage to equate this non event with the litany of mismanagement, corruption, lies etc carried out by Johnson and his government over the last few years, but that is what you do.

The important thing that happened yesterday is that, finally, the penny is dropping and people are turning against this disaster our government. You carry on knocking one out to “Beergate.” It’s all you’ve got.

[ecuk268]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Do you think Starmer should resign?
 

After all you called for Boris to do so prior to him receiving any fines. I’m fact you called for him to resign before the police had even investigated. Now the police are investigating Sir Kier I presume you think he should go.

They wheeled out a minister this morning and asked him if Starmer should go if fined. 

He refused to answer (ongoing enquiry etc etc) after the presenter pointed out that if they called for Starmer to resign then Boris would have to go also.

[sadoldgit]

23 hours ago, buctootim said:

Charisma is an important part of being a leader. It isnt too much to expect that the Prime Minister of 65 million people will have a full set of skills - intelligence, competence, work ethic, honesty and ability to engage people.  

I don’t disagree with you but is charisma something that you can learn as part of an acquired skill set or is it something you either have or haven’t got?

People might disagree with my choices, but in my lifetime few of our PMs have had charisma. Churchill, Blair and Johnson probably. Most in my opinion have been dour, political mouthpieces. I’d include most world leaders in that as well since the end of WW2.
 

It would certainly help in terms of votes if both main opposition parties had hugely charismatic leaders, but they haven’t. We are going to have to rely on their policies and their desire to help us ordinary people cope with the difficult times ahead. That’ll do for me.

[Fan The Flames]

31 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

They wheeled out a minister this morning and asked him if Starmer should go if fined. 

He refused to answer (ongoing enquiry etc etc) after the presenter pointed out that if they called for Starmer to resign then Boris would have to go also.

Exactly, there is no Tory moral high ground (or sunny uplands) here, as much as they scrabble around looking for one.

People are now seeing Johnson and his cabinet for what they are and it's a great thing to watch.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

Exactly, there is no Tory moral high ground (or sunny uplands) here, as much as they scrabble around looking for one.

People are now seeing Johnson and his cabinet for what they are and it's a great thing to watch.

What’s even funnier is the Tories don’t seem to be acknowledging a need to change. Will get absolutely fucked in general election at this rate as cost of living although many factors not in their control will play out massively to those thinking how shit life is under these privileged fckers. Of course the tax cuts will come then but these oh clever twats might be impressing LD and the like with their culture war games but many already coming round to seeing them for what they are

Edited 7 May, 2022 by whelk

[farawaysaint]

Every choice is crap. I'm voting for lord Buckethead. 

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

I don’t disagree with you but is charisma something that you can learn as part of an acquired skill set or is it something you either have or haven’t got?

People might disagree with my choices, but in my lifetime few of our PMs have had charisma. Churchill, Blair and Johnson probably. Most in my opinion have been dour, political mouthpieces. I’d include most world leaders in that as well since the end of WW2.
 

It would certainly help in terms of votes if both main opposition parties had hugely charismatic leaders, but they haven’t. We are going to have to rely on their policies and their desire to help us ordinary people cope with the difficult times ahead. That’ll do for me.

I know you don’t vote for liars, so guess Kier/Labour are not for you…

 

 

[sadoldgit]

11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I know you don’t vote for liars, so guess Kier/Labour are not for you…

 

 

Talking of liars, are you still pretending that you are not Delldays/Batman and that you have met me? 

[badgerx16]

25 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I know you don’t vote for liars, so guess Kier/Labour are not for you…

 

 

Pre-arranged business meetings were permitted under Tier 2 rules:

"Sport, live performances and business meetings limited to 50% capacity or 1000 people indoors".

Also, restaurants were allowed to open, but had to stop taking orders by 22:00, and close by 23:00.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944213/COVID-19_Tier_Posters_16_December_2020_High.pdf

[AlexLaw76]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Pre-arranged business meetings were permitted under Tier 2 rules:

"Sport, live performances and business meetings limited to 50% capacity or 1000 people indoors".

Also, restaurants were allowed to open, but had to stop taking orders by 22:00, and close by 23:00.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944213/COVID-19_Tier_Posters_16_December_2020_High.pdf

I bet they carried on working also, and Angela Raynor was (or was not) there.  Just a casual work social with people he had been with all day (sounds familiar)

'Forensic'

Edited 7 May, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[AlexLaw76]

26 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Talking of liars, are you still pretending that you are not Delldays/Batman and that you have met me? 

I am not that person, but I have met you (if you are the same person I used to exchange views with on Sotonians).

[farawaysaint]

I dunno, a curry and a beer seems like a lot less of an issue to me than a champagne party and laughing about how they would deny it to the media afterwards.

I don’t think the two are in the same ballpark but maybe that’s just me.

Edited 7 May, 2022 by farawaysaint

[RedArmy]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Pre-arranged business meetings were permitted under Tier 2 rules:

"Sport, live performances and business meetings limited to 50% capacity or 1000 people indoors".

Also, restaurants were allowed to open, but had to stop taking orders by 22:00, and close by 23:00.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944213/COVID-19_Tier_Posters_16_December_2020_High.pdf

We weren’t in tier 2 in April 2021. Try again. 
 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/977566/COVID-19_Roadmap_Posters_STEP_2_2021_-_digital_.pdf

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, RedArmy said:

We weren’t in tier 2 in April 2021. Try again. 
 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/977566/COVID-19_Roadmap_Posters_STEP_2_2021_-_digital_.pdf

“You should work from home if you can.”

Apart from that?

[Weston Super Saint]

7 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

“You should work from home if you can.”

Apart from that?

That was the instruction from Day 1 (obviously for those businesses not ordered to close due to lockdown).

I imagine this is probably the most pertinent extract :

Quote

You must not socialise indoors except with your household or support bubble. You can meet outdoors, including in gardens, in groups of six people or two households.

 

[AlexLaw76]

13 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Pre-arranged business meetings were permitted under Tier 2 rules:

"Sport, live performances and business meetings limited to 50% capacity or 1000 people indoors".

Also, restaurants were allowed to open, but had to stop taking orders by 22:00, and close by 23:00.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944213/COVID-19_Tier_Posters_16_December_2020_High.pdf

They had finished work and should have gone home.  Labour's own memo tells us they finished work. 

The curry and booze was a social (and a pre-arranged one at that)

 

I do not see the issue, but they (Labour) very much do (or did).  They even voted for these ridiculous rules and demanded those who were just under investigation for breaking them to resign.

Edited 8 May, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

That was the instruction from Day 1 (obviously for those businesses not ordered to close due to lockdown).

I imagine this is probably the most pertinent extract :

 

But was it socialising or was it a continuation of a political meeting? We’re they playing ABBA records, for example?

[whelk]

‘Leaked memo’ read work schedule. Look they planned and stop to eat. Exactly like comms person giggling about how to cover up a party. 
Even a GB News bod and Spectator editor didn’t seem to be getting excited and if ever there were outlets with an agenda. Nice deflection from how shit the Tories did in local elections and long may they carry on with this sort of crap and has no resonance unless you are a phenomenally gullible cunt like Batman

Edited 8 May, 2022 by whelk

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

‘Leaked memo’ read work schedule. Look they planned and stop to eat. Exactly like comms person giggling about how to cover up a party. 
Even a GB News bod and Spectator editor didn’t seem to be getting excited and if ever there were outlets with an agenda. Nice deflection from how shit the Tories did in local elections and long may they carry on with this sort of crap and has no resonance unless you are a phenomenally gullible cunt like Batman

Indeed. It’s deflection tactics aimed at a non-event. Flimsy to say the least.

[Tamesaint]

The scales of justice are somewhat tilted.

On the one hand a bloke had a beer and curry after working.

On the other :

Edited 8 May, 2022 by Tamesaint

[Lord Duckhunter]

22 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

 

People are now seeing Johnson and his cabinet for what they are and it's a great thing to watch.

People are now seeing what a pious Hypocrite Sir Kier Starmer is. It’s also laughable that people are moaning  about a political witch-hunt from pro Tory press. & MPs putting pressure on Durham police. That’s exactly what it is, and was exactly what the opposition and some papers did to the met. 
 

You get lefties like Soggy who were calling for Boris to go before the Met issued any fines, now stating we should wait until Durham police finish their investigation. You can’t have it both ways. 
 

 It’s all pathetic, nobody should resign or be fined retrospectively for Boris’ shindigs and nobody should resign or be retrospectively fined for Starmers beer gate. However, some people want their “side” treated differently than the other. 

[sadoldgit]

16 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I am not that person, but I have met you (if you are the same person I used to exchange views with on Sotonians).

Of course you are “that person.” Everyone knows who you are. Funny that someone with exactly the same mindset appears here shortly after you (Delldays/Batman) got yourself banned for the second time.

I have never met anyone from the Sotonians forum so that is another lie.

Going back to your point. Where exactly is the hypocrisy? The police had looked at it and decided that no rules were broken. Until such time that it is proven that any rules were broken Starmer is entitled to call out Johnson for breaking his own rules (on several different occasions) without being called a hypocrite. What you also deliberately ignore is that Johnson lied to Parliament about there no being any parties, and if there were he wasn’t at them anyway. As ever with you and the people you vote for, it is all about deflection. Now get back to scanning Twitter for more nonsense.

Duckie, you don’t seem to understand the difference between the media hounding Starmer over “Beergate” when the police had already investigated it and found that no rules had been broken and the media hounding the police to investigate “Partygate” when rules had clearly been broken but they hadn’t bothered to investigate.

As for resignations. It is a resigning matter if you deliberately lie to the House. This is what Johnson did and why he should resign.

Edited 8 May, 2022 by sadoldgit
Add text

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But was it socialising or was it a continuation of a political meeting? We’re they playing ABBA records, for example?

Don't know, don't really care to be honest.

I accepted years ago that politicians are lying when their mouths are moving 

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Don't know, don't really care to be honest.

I accepted years ago that politicians are lying when their mouths are moving 

Troo dat

[Tamesaint]

39 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

What you also deliberately ignore is that Johnson lied to Parliament about there no being any parties, and if there were he wasn’t at them anyway. As ever with you and the people you vote for, it is all about deflection. Now get back to scanning Twitter for more nonsense.

Isn't this the crux of the issue? Johnson has consistently  lied to Parliament about there being parties and whether he attended them. He has lied. Everybody knows that he has lied. 

Having a liar as leader is not a good look for a political party. It is why the Tories lost 500 seats in the local elections. The loss of integrity is doing damage to the Conservative image and is why the Tories should get rid. 

Edited 8 May, 2022 by Tamesaint

[Weston Super Saint]

9 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Isn't this the crux of the issue? Johnson has consistently  lied to Parliament about there being parties and whether he attended them. He was lying. Everybody knows that he was lying. 

Having a liar as leader is not a good look for a political party. It is why the Tories lost 500 seats in the local elections. The loss of integrity is doing damage to the Conservative image and is why the Tories should get rid.

This might come back to bite you in the arse if Durham constabularly send out a fine to Sir Kier - and let's not forget that the threshold to do so is pretty small, given that it depends entirely on the opinion of a 'constable'.

[Tamesaint]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

This might come back to bite you in the arse if Durham constabularly send out a fine to Sir Kier - and let's not forget that the threshold to do so is pretty small, given that it depends entirely on the opinion of a 'constable'.

"I refer the honourable member to the post that I made earlier this morning highlighting the number of parties that have been held and Johnson's frequent denials." 🙂

Tbh I think that the damage has been done to Johnson's reputation. Everybody in the country knows that he is a liar and the image of the Tory party is not going to be changed whilst he is still leader.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Tamesaint said:

"I refer the honourable member to the post that I made earlier this morning highlighting the number of parties that have been held and Johnson's frequent denials." 🙂

Tbh I think that the damage has been done to Johnson's reputation. Everybody in the country knows that he is a liar and the image of the Tory party is not going to be changed whilst he is still leader.

 

Not sure that most of the country needed a fine for a party to figure out Johnson is indeed a 'johnson'  

I refer the honourable member to the post I made earlier about all politicians being liars when they open their mouths  

Edited 8 May, 2022 by Weston Super Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

 

Until such time that it is proven that any rules were broken Starmer is entitled to call out Johnson for breaking his own rules (on several different occasions) without being called a hypocrite. 

Starmer (and you) called for Boris to resign before the police had decided rules were broken. Yet now you want us to wait for them to decide before condemning Starmer and calling for his resignation.