The United Kingdom and the Death of Boris Johnson as we know it.

[aintforever]

49 minutes ago, Turkish said:

And there you have the problem. People choose "a side" then stick with that side no matter what, it aint a frigging football team. Obviously the sooner the country gets rid of Johnson the better, a dreadful prime minister, yet some people would rather he stays because it help their side get in, not because they want what's best for the country. You've only got to look at the Brexit fallout. The vote didn't go the way some wanted, so rather than accept the democratic vote and getting on with it there was endless wailing and bleating with quite a few people desperately hoping it all goes wrong and the country is fucked forever just so they can say i told you so. 

That's just bollocks. If you strongly believe a left-wing progressive government is best for the country you will probably want the Tories out, not a re-brand after the whitewash with someone similar taking Boris' place.

 

 

Edited 21 January, 2022 by aintforever

[Fan The Flames]

27 minutes ago, Turkish said:

And there you have the problem. People choose "a side" then stick with that side no matter what, it aint a frigging football team. Obviously the sooner the country gets rid of Johnson the better, a dreadful prime minister, yet some people would rather he stays because it help their side get in, not because they want what's best for the country. You've only got to look at the Brexit fallout. The vote didn't go the way some wanted, so rather than accept the democratic vote and getting on with it there was endless wailing and bleating with quite a few people desperately hoping it all goes wrong and the country is fucked forever just so they can say i told you so. 

But people aren't choosing a side and sticking with them for arbitrary reasons, there are choosing them because the core party offer aligns with their belief in how they want a society to be run, they stick with them as long as that remains the case. 

Brexit is polarising so it's natural that there is a fall out from it for a while. The endless wailing and bleating is matched by the years of wailing and bleating by the euro sceptics prior to Brexit and their obsession with wanting the EU to f**k up so they can say I told you so.

[Warriorsaint]

46 minutes ago, Turkish said:

And there you have the problem. People choose "a side" then stick with that side no matter what, it aint a frigging football team. Obviously the sooner the country gets rid of Johnson the better, a dreadful prime minister, yet some people would rather he stays because it help their side get in, not because they want what's best for the country. You've only got to look at the Brexit fallout. The vote didn't go the way some wanted, so rather than accept the democratic vote and getting on with it there was endless wailing and bleating with quite a few people desperately hoping it all goes wrong and the country is fucked forever just so they can say i told you so. 

Just so happens the country is fucked. 12 years of Tory rule and the countries great isn’t it. 
 

Brexit was the result. The tories fucked it.

ps told you so

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, aintforever said:

That's just bollocks. If you strongly believe a left wing progressive government is best for the country you will probably want the Tories out, not a re-brand after the whitewash with someone similar taking Boris' place.

 

 

So you dont think the country would be in a better position if Boris quit today?

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

But people aren't choosing a side and sticking with them for arbitrary reasons, there are choosing them because the core party offer aligns with their belief in how they want a society to be run, they stick with them as long as that remains the case. 

Brexit is polarising so it's natural that there is a fall out from it for a while. The endless wailing and bleating is matched by the years of wailing and bleating by the euro sceptics prior to Brexit and their obsession with wanting the EU to f**k up so they can say I told you so.

I dont remember there being much wailing and bleating from many before the referendum aside from a few loons. it only became an issue because Cameron promised it playing party politics. Maybe the issue that caused the silent majority to vote for it was caused by your boys....

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Just so happens the country is fucked. 12 years of Tory rule and the countries great isn’t it. 
 

Brexit was the result. The tories fucked it.

ps told you so

How is the country fucked?

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So you dont think the country would be in a better position if Boris quit today?

I do, but that's just my opinion.

If someone thinks we would be better off with a couple more years of Bozo so we get shot of the Tories and move forward with a left-wing government than that's their opinion.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

I do, but that's just my opinion.

If someone thinks we would be better off with a couple more years of Bozo so we get shot of the Tories and move forward with a left-wing government than that's their opinion.

So despite you saying my post was bollocks you actually agree with me  

Edited 21 January, 2022 by Turkish

[aintforever]

Just now, Turkish said:

So despite you saying my opinion was bollocks you actually agree with me  

No you fail to understand as usual.

I'm saying that you can want what's best for the country wether you want him to stay or not. Keeping him in might be shit short-term but be the best thing long-term.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, aintforever said:

No you fail to understand as usual.

I'm saying that you can want what's best for the country wether you want him to stay or not. Keeping him in might be shit short-term but be the best thing long-term.

But in your opinion you think the country would be better off if he quit today, which is what you replied to me with, which was exactly what i said. It aint rocket science is what i believe some people say at this point.

Edited 21 January, 2022 by Turkish

[aintforever]

Just now, Turkish said:

But in your opinion you think the country would be better off if he quit today, which is what you replied to me with, which was exactly what i said. It aint rocket science pal. 

Clearly it is for you.

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So you dont think the country would be in a better position if Boris quit today?

I do, but that's just my opinion.

Yeah of course  

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Clearly it is for you.

 

Hello Soggy by the way you weirdo, i can see you liking all aintclevers posts 👋

Edited 21 January, 2022 by Turkish

[The Left Back]

Why would he quit?  He's behaving in exactly the way most people would have predicted.  In fact he's been pretty much entirely predictable.  I've no idea why he was voted in but it wouldn't be because of his giant moral compass.  The only way he gets to go is if he gets stiffed by his own party - they're famous for it.  Even the so-called legendary leader Thatcher ended up being the shown the door by those closest to her.

As for what difference would it make if he quit I would guess not much.  The damage he's done to the reputation of our political institutions is just a more extreme version of something bigger and more troubling. I don't think we can rely on anyone in the current system to be able to lead our country through the post-Brexit, post-Covid, climate-emergency, socially-unsettled, economically-polarised challenges we are facing.

Me?  I hate what the tories stand for.  More than that I'd vote for anything that changes the current political system.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

42 minutes ago, Turkish said:

How is the country fucked?

No secure energy supplies, rocketing inflation, can't sell anything into Europe, trapped in an overcrowded island...

[Turkish]

15 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No secure energy supplies, rocketing inflation, can't sell anything into Europe, trapped in an overcrowded island...

better quality of life than 95% of the world.

[The Left Back]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

better quality of life than 95% of the world.

Define quality of life

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

That isn't pony. Its a complete load of old bollocks.

Johnson's government have done more to endanger the union with their attitude towards Scotland and their non resolution of the Northern Irish Brexit question than any other government in my memory. Johnson and this lot dont give a fig for the union. 

 

Course they’re unionist. Major signing Maastricht, Brown agreeing to Lisbon made Brexit more likely, but that didn’t make them Leavers. If there was a vote for English independence they’d vote no. That’s not English nationalism. You’ll know it when it arrives. 

[Mystic Force]

80% of what government does has to be done regardless of who is in charge, 20% is ideological, philosophical and policy. You might not agree with the 20% but everyone wants the 80% done right. Therefore people will be willing to give up some of the 20% to make sure the 80% is done at least for a while.

 

 

NOTE *I will have used number pulled out my arse for the above statement, arguing about the numbers is not the point*

 

 

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Course they’re unionist. Major signing Maastricht, Brown agreeing to Lisbon made Brexit more likely, but that didn’t make them Leavers. If there was a vote for English independence they’d vote no. That’s not English nationalism. You’ll know it when it arrives. 

English 'nationalism' will arrive by default after the Scots go and Ireland is unified.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

better quality of life than 95% of the world.

Well that’s not true. I’m guessing that you haven’t been to the other 95%.

[Mystic Force]

I get the feeling English nationalism involves being able to tell the Scotts, Welsh and Irish what to do. You do not need independence when you have dominance. I cannot think of any instance where nationalism was expressed as a wish to kick out smaller territories peopled by others, moving those peoples out was..... (*except some rumblings in Belgium a few years back)

[Warriorsaint]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

better quality of life than 95% of the world.

😂 

[Warriorsaint]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

How is the country fucked?

😂

1 foodbanks 😂

[Warriorsaint]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

How is the country fucked?

😂

2 15 miles tailbacks at Dover 😂

[Warriorsaint]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

How is the country fucked?

😂

3 150,000 dead of Covid 😂

[Warriorsaint]

In fact we could ask , in 12 years of Tories what have they actually done? 
tbf Im open minded enough to accept if anyone can come up with anything they have actually implemented that made the UK better for all its subjects.

Anyone? Anything since 2010?

Edited 21 January, 2022 by Warriorsaint

[badgerx16]

20 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

😂

3 150,000 dead of Covid 😂

Can you learn to use brackets after your index numbers ?

Edited 21 January, 2022 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

In fact we could ask , in 12 years of Tories what have they actually done? 

Ummm. I seem to think there might be some sort of Monty Python meme appropriate to this question.

[Warriorsaint]

17 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Ummm. I seem to think there might be some sort of Monty Python meme appropriate to this question.

Good luck . No Roads, no new bridges or aqueducts for that matter but….

we have killer Smart motorways, Boris garden bridge, the £2 million consultation of a Scotland/NI bridge to be built over an abyss filled with munitions to name a few.

Monty Python couldn’t come up with anything more surreal.

oh yeah I forgot new policy on reducing the amount of announcements on trains.

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Good luck . No Roads, no new bridges or aqueducts for that matter but….

we have killer Smart motorways, Boris garden bridge, the £2 million consultation of a Scotland/NI bridge to be built over an abyss filled with munitions to name a few.

Monty Python couldn’t come up with anything more surreal.

oh yeah I forgot new policy on reducing the amount of announcements on trains.

You see, it is all about personal perspective. For instance, some people would take up your gauntlet by replying "Delivered Brexit, kept Labour out of power, produced the fastest vaccine response to the pandemic, one of the first countries to legally commit to zero emissions".

Then again, YOU might go for this; https://skwawkbox.org/2019/12/08/the-long-list-of-shame-tory-achievements-2010-2019/

 

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You see, it is all about personal perspective. For instance, some people would take up your gauntlet by replying "Delivered Brexit, kept Labour out of power, produced the fastest vaccine response to the pandemic, one of the first countries to legally commit to zero emissions".

Then again, YOU might go for this; https://skwawkbox.org/2019/12/08/the-long-list-of-shame-tory-achievements-2010-2019/

 

Christ!!!!!!!! Even I didn’t think it was that bad. 
It baffles me how anyone thought Corbyn would have done any worse than that.

[ecuk268]

11 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You see, it is all about personal perspective. For instance, some people would take up your gauntlet by replying "Delivered Brexit, kept Labour out of power, produced the fastest vaccine response to the pandemic, one of the first countries to legally commit to zero emissions".

Then again, YOU might go for this; https://skwawkbox.org/2019/12/08/the-long-list-of-shame-tory-achievements-2010-2019/

 

There was bloke on the radio this morning who was supporting Boris and was asked what he had achieved.

He replied that "he'd opened all these food banks". I thought that he was being sarcastic but he was serious. 

[badgerx16]

58 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

It baffles me how anyone thought Corbyn would have done any worse than that.

It takes very little imagination to realise Corbyn would have been a disaster.

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It takes very little imagination to realise Corbyn would have been a disaster.

Nope, not having that, just like Ed Milliband as well eh?The tory fear machine works so well.

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Nope, not having that, just like Ed Milliband as well eh?The tory fear machine works so well.

David Milliband - the best PM we never had.

If you think Corbyn should ever have got near a Government front bench post you are a total fool.

[buctootim]

10 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Nope, not having that, just like Ed Milliband as well eh?The tory fear machine works so well.

 

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

David Milliband - the best PM we never had.

If you think Corbyn should ever have got near a Government front bench post you are a total fool.

Ed Miliband might seem harmless in a dopey kind of way but he has done more damage to this country than any other Labour politician. He stopped us getting David Miliband, the able brother who would have beaten Cameron, avoided Brexit and the whole Johnson mess which followed. He has a frickin huge amount to answer for.     

Edited 21 January, 2022 by buctootim

[Tamesaint]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

English 'nationalism' will arrive by default after the Scots go and Ireland is unified.

And those 2 events are on course to happen thanks to this current Tory rabble calling the leader of the Scottish Tories "lightweight" and their lies re Northern Ireland and Brexit. 

[badgerx16]

17 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

And those 2 events are on course to happen thanks to this current Tory rabble calling the leader of the Scottish Tories "lightweight" and their lies re Northern Ireland and Brexit. 

Question Time this week came from St Andrews, and included this response to JRM's slur - "I think there’s a degree of projection from Jacob Rees Mogg…given that Boris Johnson has entrusted him with a role that is no more important than to deal with etiquette and protocol, like he’s some kind of steampunk C-3P0"

Edited 21 January, 2022 by badgerx16

[Warriorsaint]

17 hours ago, Turkish said:

How is the country fucked?

(4) Sewage dumping unrestricted in our rivers 😂

[moonraker]

18 hours ago, Turkish said:

better quality of life than 95% of the world.

That's a relative term, the people of these islands judge their quality of life based on their personal experiences and expectations.  Neither you, I or 99% of the posters on this board have any conception of how the 95% of people who, by your criteria have a worse quality of life.  I may be making a big assumption, but I assume you are using a Western Cultural criteria that values what is important to Western Capitalist Economies.  This is not a universal value system and fails to consider many of the far more nuanced  criteria that we all value but often fail to acknowledge that contribute to ones quality of life.  There are undoubtedly far to many people living in poverty facing a daily battle to survive i our world, this does not excuse the 11 years of Tory government that has undoubtedly made many more of our own peoples lives far harder  than when they came to power in 2010 and hence has reduced the overall quality of life in the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Lord Duckhunter]

18 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

English 'nationalism' will arrive by default after the Scots go and Ireland is unified.

Let’s hope so.
 

But like Brexit, the break up of The Union will be mainly down to the people who want to save it. When history is written the major starting point was the ridiculous devolution settlement orchestrated by New Labour and designed to kill nationalism stone dead. Instead it was the shot in the arm it needed. The establishment is playing exactly the same game they did with euro scepticism. They seem to think that more devolved powers, more local decision making,will result in people deciding to stay within the UK. When all it does is super charge independence. Ken Clarke used to tell Major and later Cameron that they shouldn’t give an inch to the Euro Sceptic side, because they just bank it, and carry on as normal.  This is exactly what will happen with Krankie etc. There will be more tax rising and other measures devolved and it still won’t stop the March to independence. It will hasten it, as well as antagonise the English. The more powers that flow to Scotland, the more The English issue is highlighted. If we ever end up in a situation where Labour govern on the back of Sweaty votes, English nationalist voices will rise up. I know The Tories have governed the UK whilst having 1 or 2 sweaty MP’s, but the fundamental difference is UK MP’s will be deciding English matters that are devolved in Scotland, and politics being politics the opposition won’t accept that as part of being in the union, it’ll be pointed out over and over again (as will the £’s sent up there).  It’s untenable in the long term. 

[buctootim]

 

"Boris Johnson is a terrible prime minister and a worse human being. But he is not a monster newly sprung from a rent between this world and the next. Twenty years have passed since the Conservative party first selected him as a candidate. Michael Howard and David Cameron made him a shadow minister, and Theresa May gave him the Foreign Office. Thirty years of celebrity made him famous for his mendacity, indifference to detail, poor administration, and inveterate betrayal of every personal commitment. Yet, knowing this, the majority of Conservative MPs, and party members, still voted for him to be prime minister. He is not, therefore, an aberration, but a product of a system that will continue to produce terrible politicians long after he is gone.

MPs selected him because they would not risk the possibility of a smaller majority under a better leader. Winning mattered more than governing well. And the public often seems to share this indifference. Dominic Cummings’ seven-hour testimony last year on exactly how bad Johnson had been at exercising power had little effect on his popularity. And his current collapse is not because of his gross mishandling of the Brexit negotiations, or one of the worst combinations of Covid death-rates and economic damage anywhere in the world, but because he went to a party.

Which is why — although British politics is undermined by Johnson’s brutal indifference to constitutional structures or expert judgment — his very presence reveals a more fundamental problem: the narrowness and partisanship of our political parties, and their focus on the permanent campaign. By focusing more on gossip and games against the opposition, than on the detail of running the country, parliament has long turned previously dignified MPs into humiliated automatons."

 

Rory Stewart former Tory MP and leadership candidate writing in the FT. Hard to disagree  

https://www.ft.com/content/dec2e1ed-d827-41de-a827-b9d7fbf06fd0

Edited 22 January, 2022 by buctootim

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 The Tories have governed the UK whilst having 1 or 2 sweaty MP’s.

Gove and Sunak do come across as slimeballs but I don't know about them being sweaty. 

[Turkish]

23 hours ago, moonraker said:

That's a relative term, the people of these islands judge their quality of life based on their personal experiences and expectations.  Neither you, I or 99% of the posters on this board have any conception of how the 95% of people who, by your criteria have a worse quality of life.  I may be making a big assumption, but I assume you are using a Western Cultural criteria that values what is important to Western Capitalist Economies.  This is not a universal value system and fails to consider many of the far more nuanced  criteria that we all value but often fail to acknowledge that contribute to ones quality of life.  There are undoubtedly far to many people living in poverty facing a daily battle to survive i our world, this does not excuse the 11 years of Tory government that has undoubtedly made many more of our own peoples lives far harder  than when they came to power in 2010 and hence has reduced the overall quality of life in the UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

And there is the problem, expectations. People expect to have Cars, sky TV, computers, iPads etc these days. 40 years ago these things were luxuries, now people expect them. It’s easy to blame the government but the reality is that many people live well beyond their means, stacked with debt, but still let’s absolve people of their own responsibility and blame the everything on the government we don’t like 

[moonraker]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

And there is the problem, expectations. People expect to have Cars, sky TV, computers, iPads etc these days. 40 years ago these things were luxuries, now people expect them. It’s easy to blame the government but the reality is that many people live well beyond their means, stacked with debt, but still let’s absolve people of their own responsibility and blame the everything on the government we don’t like 

What people had 40 years ago is as irrelevant as what they had 100 years ago.  Expectations are not bad, entitlement now there is a different problem so gloriously evidenced by our current leadership.   I do agree that people must take responsibility for themselves and in the main I believe they do, you said people are "stacked with debt" also true to a point, 91% of this is property debt, and the ridiculous cost of housing drives this, expecting to have a house is hardly irresponsible.  Without expectations and satisfying those expectations through credit and peoples willingness to use it the economy would be in a far worse state, it is expectation that drives a market economy and the more market driven a governments policies are the greater the level of expectation.

 

PS.  I have zero debt

 

[sadoldgit]

47 minutes ago, moonraker said:

What people had 40 years ago is as irrelevant as what they had 100 years ago.  Expectations are not bad, entitlement now there is a different problem so gloriously evidenced by our current leadership.   I do agree that people must take responsibility for themselves and in the main I believe they do, you said people are "stacked with debt" also true to a point, 91% of this is property debt, and the ridiculous cost of housing drives this, expecting to have a house is hardly irresponsible.  Without expectations and satisfying those expectations through credit and peoples willingness to use it the economy would be in a far worse state, it is expectation that drives a market economy and the more market driven a governments policies are the greater the level of expectation.

 

PS.  I have zero debt

 

We live in a technological age. Without access to the internet you cannot claim Universal Credit. Many jobs can only be accessed online. Online banking is becoming the normal. We get more and more information from our smart phones. Many people cannot get to work without a car. Thanks to the national transport system now cars are the only options for many people to get around. As you say, throw in the ridiculous cost of housing and more and more people are struggling to afford the things that we all need to live our lives in the 21st century.

[igsey]

On 21/01/2022 at 13:23, AlexLaw76 said:

You really hate Tory's don't you.  No matter what they do, who they are, you hate them.

very very strange

I really really really hate Tories and everybody that votes for them.

[badgerx16]

From the Independent;

"

Officials working in No 10 claim they have held back information from Sue Gray’s investigation into the partygate scandal due to a “culture of fear” surrounding the probe.

Three sources told The Independent they have not divulged messages and pictures on their phones after a senior member of staff told them to remove anything that could fuel speculation in the wake of the first party revelations.

Messages in a WhatsApp group were said to contain photographs of people drinking and dancing, as well as references to how hungover people were the next day.

The messages are from the eve of Prince Philip’s funeral, when there were two parties, one to mark the departure of a No 10 photographer and another to mark the departure of James Slack, Downing Street’s director of communications. Mr Slack has since made a public apology.

One source claimed that after being asked to remove information, they subsequently deleted evidence of that party.

They said they were also fearful that, having removed material, they could face censure: “I did the wrong thing and actually deleted stuff.”

“Everyone’s terrified. It’s a witch hunt,” another source told The Independent. “There’s been a culture of fear [in the office] every day since the first party story broke.”

Another source added: "I’ve held back from sharing evidence, it’s too risky. And I’d have to explain why I’d deleted some stuff, which would mean saying I’d felt intimidated."

Ms Gray is expected to report back to the prime minister at the beginning of next week and he will then decide when to make the findings public.

One source said going to Ms Gray with such information was tantamount to being asked to “snitch on the PM in an internal investigation”. "

Edited 23 January, 2022 by badgerx16

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

We live in a technological age. Without access to the internet you cannot claim Universal Credit. Many jobs can only be accessed online. Online banking is becoming the normal. We get more and more information from our smart phones. Many people cannot get to work without a car. Thanks to the national transport system now cars are the only options for many people to get around. As you say, throw in the ridiculous cost of housing and more and more people are struggling to afford the things that we all need to live our lives in the 21st century.

Good point without the Internet some people wouldn’t be able to bore everyone with their self righteous piety 

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Good point without the Internet some people wouldn’t be able to bore everyone with their self righteous piety 

And you wouldn't be able to go on about it on every thread.