La BoIS Saint Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 Excuse my ignorance, but isn't "winding up" different from "administration"? i thought administration was trying to sort out the companies finances, come to some sort of agreement with creditors, maybe seel the company, but try to keep it as a going concern. Winding up is sell all the assets, close it down and disburse all the assets to the shareholders. End of PLC. End of club. That's pretty much it although I'm not sure what would be left for the shareholders as there won't be a queue of people bidding for the stadium. :yawinkle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 Somebody will buy it if it is offered cheap enough. I personally think this is why we have not been taken over already, because the vultures have been circling waiting for the club to effectively die so they can pick it up at a fraction of what it was being offered at before administration. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Yep I agree. There will be a load of buyers who would be eager to get us for peanuts and revive our great potential. Heck if no one buys us (won't happen) then I'll do it myself so now you have a guarantee that our club won't fold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 Ridiculous to even suggest that no one would buy saints after admin. Why .... If Aviva dont play ball thats 23 million up front before you pay for the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 January, 2009 Share Posted 19 January, 2009 Why .... If Aviva dont play ball thats 23 million up front before you pay for the club The only way to pay of that debt is by filling the stadium somehow and the only way to do that is with a football club playing football. Without a buyer at some stage before winding up / administration Then it's a points deduction this season and probably an even bigger one next season in League 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Why .... If Aviva dont play ball thats 23 million up front before you pay for the club Too true. Anyone who thinks Aviva will let a 35 acre city centre site go for a pittance is dreaming. If they dont get reasonable offers they will clear the site and sell it, possibly in a few years when the housing market recovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Lol. It won't happen. Please name one other football club of our size that this has happened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Somebody will buy it if it is offered cheap enough. I personally think this is why we have not been taken over already, because the vultures have been circling waiting for the club to effectively die so they can pick it up at a fraction of what it was being offered at before administration. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Why would it be offered cheaply .....seriously what is it that you don't get ? You can buy the whole club now for 6 million (If anybody would sell) it aint gonna get much cheaper.....administration or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Lol. It won't happen. Please name one other football club of our size that this has happened to. The structure of our debt is completely different to other clubs. Anyway there is no point in trying to convince me...... You have to convince Aviva why they should walk away from 23 million. As an analogy, if you went bankrupt tomorrow, would your mortgage company give you your house???????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milkybarkid Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 One thing. If we go into administration, do we get a points penalty if we're still in it when the league starts again in August? Can see Lowe and Wilde ****ing up and doing it in July or something..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Milkybarkid Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 The structure of our debt is completely different to other clubs. Anyway there is no point in trying to convince me...... You have to convince Aviva why they should walk away from 23 million. As an analogy, if you went bankrupt tomorrow, would your mortgage company give you your house???????????????????????????????? Aviva is Norwich Union, right? Well, Ipswich owed them £12 million a few years ago and they simply wrote it off. It does happen, and makes us more desirable to any potential new owner.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 One thing. If we go into administration, do we get a points penalty if we're still in it when the league starts again in August? Can see Lowe and Wilde ****ing up and doing it in July or something..... Basically, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 (edited) Lol. It won't happen. Please name one other football club of our size that this has happened to. http://www.thefa.com/Features/EnglishDomestic/Postings/2003/06/51480.htm "My duty is not to protect the football club. I am a football fan, but I have to be independent. I have a duty to get the best possible deal for all of the creditors. That would normally be done through selling the club as a going concern. But it may be that the ground or some other asset at the club is particularly valuable. The worst case scenario would be for somebody to buy the assets to break the club up, for example to develop the ground into a housing estate. We would do our best to make sure that does not happen, but it is always a possibility." Edited 20 January, 2009 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Aviva is Norwich Union, right? Well, Ipswich owed them £12 million a few years ago and they simply wrote it off. It does happen, and makes us more desirable to any potential new owner.... Norwich Union were based in Norwich and employed thousands there. Now they are owned by Aviva who are based in France and who wouldnt give a **** about selling SMS if the alternative was to take a massive hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 One thing. If we go into administration, do we get a points penalty if we're still in it when the league starts again in August? Can see Lowe and Wilde ****ing up and doing it in July or something..... Isn't there rules in place now about when a club can go into administration ? Fairly sure a couple of clubs did a sly and waited until the end of the season to see where they ended up before going into admin ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Aviva is Norwich Union, right? Well, Ipswich owed them £12 million a few years ago and they simply wrote it off. It does happen, and makes us more desirable to any potential new owner.... Aviva are not going to write off 23 million, because they dont have to. I dont know the circumstances of the Ipswich deal, but in this one they dont need to walk away..... they can simply take back the site. Administration for Saints is no different from you and I going Bankrupt........so please explain why your mortgage company is going to give you your house free of charge and walk away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Why would it be offered cheaply .....seriously what is it that you don't get ? You can buy the whole club now for 6 million (If anybody would sell) it aint gonna get much cheaper.....administration or not Like I said, I could be completely wrong. I don't pretend to be an expert in these matters, but I was thinking of the Leeds situation where Ken Bates was able to buy the club back for a pound or something stupid like that after it had gone into administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 When we go into admin and this doesn't happen I will return and say I told you so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan Posted 20 January, 2009 Author Share Posted 20 January, 2009 low post members plus itk gossip means only one thing.......pr plant I have been a member of the marching in, saints forever, and the thesaintsforum websites and try only to post when I have something sensible to say. I have been a season ticket holder for the last 16 years and currently sit behind one of the old admins of this site. So no, I'm not a PR plant. No, but would appreciate it is you could make my Skandia pension perform better....thanks... If only I could... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Like I said, I could be completely wrong. I don't pretend to be an expert in these matters, but I was thinking of the Leeds situation where Ken Bates was able to buy the club back for a pound or something stupid like that after it had gone into administration. Yes he did, but the ground was sold to the Council and leased back to the club (I think) Not an option for us as SCC is super skint and not in a position to buy the stadium from Aviva.......... not that they would even if they had the money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 When we go into admin and this doesn't happen I will return and say I told you so. No-one is saying that SMS will be sold and demolished if we go into administration, in fact its unlikely. However the consequences of it happening would be so huge for the club no-one should be thinking admin is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint 76er Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 No-one is saying that SMS will be sold and demolished if we go into administration, in fact its unlikely. However the consequences of it happening would be so huge for the club no-one should be thinking admin is the way to go. Surely Aviva selling the stadium would only apply if the club folded outright in administration and the assets reverted to the 1st mortgage holder? If we are bought as a going concern in administration by some group (highly likely I would think) then presumably they would only need to continue making the annual loan payments to Aviva as per the current contract and it's all hunky dory stadium wise. After all Aviva are not expecting an immediate payout, they are expecting the loan to be paid up over the next 15-20 years in accordance with the terms renegotiated by a certain well known Scottish holiday lover. Aviva will make their money from the interest that will be paid over this period. Assuming we are taken over, then the new owners will surely have factored in such annual costings and will have enough funds available to pay debts and take the club forward. Why on earth would you even bother approaching the administrator if you couldn't do that? Furthermore, I think the logical time for an approach would be immediately before entering admin as Lowe and co would have little choice but to take what they could get, or wait another day to get nothing. That will be the cheapest price and you beat to the punch all those queueing up for admin to happen (and no points penalty either!). Obviously, there is huge supposition by all of us on the admin/takeover issue and who knows how the final cards will actually fall? I suspect many twists and turns are still to come, but a viable club with Lowe and Wilde banned for life is the only outcome I look forward to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint 76er Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 No-one is saying that SMS will be sold and demolished if we go into administration, in fact its unlikely. However the consequences of it happening would be so huge for the club no-one should be thinking admin is the way to go. Surely Aviva selling the stadium would only apply if the club folded outright in administration and the assets reverted to the 1st mortgage holder? If we are bought as a going concern in administration by some group (highly likely I would think) then presumably they would only need to continue making the annual loan payments to Aviva as per the current contract and it's all hunky dory stadium wise. After all Aviva are not expecting an immediate payout, they are expecting the loan to be paid up over the next 15-20 years in accordance with the terms renegotiated by a certain well known Scottish holiday lover. Aviva will make their money from the interest that will be paid over this period. Assuming we are taken over, then the new owners will surely have factored in such annual costings and will have enough funds available to pay debts and take the club forward. Why on earth would you even bother approaching the administrator if you couldn't do that? Furthermore, I think the logical time for an approach would be immediately before entering admin as Lowe and co would have little choice but to take what they could get, or wait another day to get nothing. That will be the cheapest price and you beat to the punch all those queueing up for admin to happen (and no points penalty either!). Obviously, there is huge supposition by all of us on the admin/takeover issue and who knows how the final cards will actually fall? I suspect many twists and turns are still to come, but a viable club with Lowe and Wilde banned for life is the only outcome I look forward to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Feb 8th .... Sunday ... YAY ... this can only mean one thing we are being bought up by some mega rich Arab Conglomerate. Sunday is the start of the working week out here. Shame it is after the transfer window. Can someone start another rumour that this rumour has been bought forward by 2 weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Feb 8th .... Sunday ... YAY ... this can only mean one thing we are being bought up by some mega rich Arab Conglomerate. Sunday is the start of the working week out here. Shame it is after the transfer window. Can someone start another rumour that this rumour has been bought forward by 2 weeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Everything is so f**ked at SFC now that administration now, take the 10point deduction and start next season afresh in Division Three with new management on and off field is the ONLY way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Everything is so f**ked at SFC now that administration now, take the 10point deduction and start next season afresh in Division Three with new management on and off field is the ONLY way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Why would it be offered cheaply .....seriously what is it that you don't get ? You can buy the whole club now for 6 million (If anybody would sell) it aint gonna get much cheaper.....administration or not That is the key point. At the moment no-one can force the shareholders to sell. It is rumoured on here that Lowe won't sell. If the club goes into admin, it no longer is the decision of the shareholders. Could it be the case that we will only be sold whilst in administration when the decision to sell is taken out of the existing shareholders hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Why would it be offered cheaply .....seriously what is it that you don't get ? You can buy the whole club now for 6 million (If anybody would sell) it aint gonna get much cheaper.....administration or not That is the key point. At the moment no-one can force the shareholders to sell. It is rumoured on here that Lowe won't sell. If the club goes into admin, it no longer is the decision of the shareholders. Could it be the case that we will only be sold whilst in administration when the decision to sell is taken out of the existing shareholders hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Too true. Anyone who thinks Aviva will let a 35 acre city centre site go for a pittance is dreaming. If they dont get reasonable offers they will clear the site and sell it, possibly in a few years when the housing market recovers. Two words - Planning Permission . Football clubs never really die - however bad things get they always seem to survive one way or another rather like the monster in some horror film that just won't die . I can't think of a single example of a major British football club completely disappearing from the game , even Accrington Stanley made a comeback eventually . If/when we go into administration someone will buy the club - don't know who don't know when - but it will happen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Too true. Anyone who thinks Aviva will let a 35 acre city centre site go for a pittance is dreaming. If they dont get reasonable offers they will clear the site and sell it, possibly in a few years when the housing market recovers. Two words - Planning Permission . Football clubs never really die - however bad things get they always seem to survive one way or another rather like the monster in some horror film that just won't die . I can't think of a single example of a major British football club completely disappearing from the game , even Accrington Stanley made a comeback eventually . If/when we go into administration someone will buy the club - don't know who don't know when - but it will happen . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Quote: Ridiculous to even suggest that no one would buy saints after admin Why? About half the clubs in the country are up for sale and no-one wants to buy any of them. And if by some miracle we did find a buyer it would be a consortium of hopeful but hopelessly underfunded local businessmen (Fulthorpe ring a bell with anyone?) followed by administration followed by another bunch of hopeful but hopelessly underfunded local businessmen and more administration (see AFC Bournemouth for details). I'm afraid there is nobody out there in the wider world who is in the mood for a thirty million pound plaything at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Quote: Ridiculous to even suggest that no one would buy saints after admin Why? About half the clubs in the country are up for sale and no-one wants to buy any of them. And if by some miracle we did find a buyer it would be a consortium of hopeful but hopelessly underfunded local businessmen (Fulthorpe ring a bell with anyone?) followed by administration followed by another bunch of hopeful but hopelessly underfunded local businessmen and more administration (see AFC Bournemouth for details). I'm afraid there is nobody out there in the wider world who is in the mood for a thirty million pound plaything at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Norwich Union were based in Norwich and employed thousands there. Now they are owned by Aviva who are based in France and who wouldnt give a **** about selling SMS if the alternative was to take a massive hit. Aviva HO is in London. They are not a French Company The three main offices are London (Ex Commercial Union HO), Norwich (Ex Norwich Union HO) and Perth (Ex General Accident HO). I should know, I worked for GA, merged with CU to form CGU and merged with NU with Aviva becoming the holding company name thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Norwich Union were based in Norwich and employed thousands there. Now they are owned by Aviva who are based in France and who wouldnt give a **** about selling SMS if the alternative was to take a massive hit. Aviva HO is in London. They are not a French Company The three main offices are London (Ex Commercial Union HO), Norwich (Ex Norwich Union HO) and Perth (Ex General Accident HO). I should know, I worked for GA, merged with CU to form CGU and merged with NU with Aviva becoming the holding company name thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbletch Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Two words - Planning Permission . Football clubs never really die - however bad things get they always seem to survive one way or another rather like the monster in some horror film that just won't die . I can't think of a single example of a major British football club completely disappearing from the game , even Accrington Stanley made a comeback eventually . If/when we go into administration someone will buy the club - don't know who don't know when - but it will happen . Just because we haven't seen it happen in the past doesn't mean that we won't see it by the end of this recession/depression. We are living in extraordinary times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 That is the key point. At the moment no-one can force the shareholders to sell. It is rumoured on here that Lowe won't sell. Lowe is a minority shareholder - you could take effective control of the club without even talking to him - so I don't put much credence in the "my Dad offered to by the club but Lowe said no" rumours. He may hold proxies for more shares than his own but he doesn't have the say so on whether they're sold or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Everything is so f**ked at SFC now that administration now, take the 10point deduction and start next season afresh in Division Three with new management on and off field is the ONLY way forward. Like back to the future? Follow me, I'm right behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rational Rich Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 If a winding up petition has been presented, a call to the high court would confirm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 I have heard a rumour that we have been issued with a winding up order with something due to happen on 8th Feb. (Vague I know!) I don't claim to be in the know, and this has only come from someone who does a lot of hospitality at the ground and knows a few of the staff. Anyone heard anything about this? Not much happens of a Sunday as a rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 So you're saying nothing ever happens for a first time? Despite everything that's ever happened having had a first time. Good one. Dont even mention Brighton or Wimbledon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Now i could be wrong, but the land SMS is on can only ever be used as industrial due to the gas works. Which means that land will not be worth £23m, so the title deed holder will want the club to remain and pay off the debt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Now i could be wrong, but the land SMS is on can only ever be used as industrial due to the gas works. Which means that land will not be worth £23m, so the title deed holder will want the club to remain and pay off the debt. I think you're almost right. The land would be subject to extensive remediation and decontamination if it were to be used for housing and that would cost a tidy sum. In these difficult and challenging times ( I'm getting fed up with that phrase) I can't see a speculator buying the land for housing with that sort of millstone round its neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Which means that land will not be worth £23m, so the title deed holder will want the club to remain and pay off the debt. I completely agree. Aviva and in my opinion Barclays are very unlikely to put us in administration. The issues would come if we went into voluntary administration (If cash flow dries up or we cease to being a "Going concern). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 I completely agree. Aviva and in my opinion Barclays are very unlikely to put us in administration. The issues would come if we went into voluntary administration (If cash flow dries up or we cease to being a "Going concern). We must have other creditors though? Any one of them could call the shots, surely? Whether it's the horse liniment supplier, the utilities provider(s) or - heaven forfend - the photcopier supplier ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano6 Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Norwich Union were based in Norwich and employed thousands there. Now they are owned by Aviva who are based in France and who wouldnt give a **** about selling SMS if the alternative was to take a massive hit. Actually there has been no change in ownership recently. The current structure has been in place for some time, but only recently has the decision been made to ditch the Norwich Union name in GB and make it more joined up in the whole of Europe. It's purely a rebranding exercise. The Aviva name was an original term with no prior connotations chosen partly for it's appeal as a palindrome, that is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Actually there has been no change in ownership recently. The current structure has been in place for some time, but only recently has the decision been made to ditch the Norwich Union name in GB and make it more joined up in the whole of Europe. It's purely a rebranding exercise. The Aviva name was an original term with no prior connotations chosen partly for it's appeal as a palindrome, that is a fact. Perhaps the OP is getting confused with Veolia or Vivendi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 In these difficult and challenging times ( I'm getting fed up with that phrase) Indeed. I'm almost as fed up with that phrase as I was hearing Brown spouting "we've never had it so good" every 5 minutes a mere 12 months ago.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Whether it's the horse liniment supplier, the utilities provider(s) or - heaven forfend - the photcopier supplier ...... LifeLong Saint bringing the club down would bring a certain ironic twist to the proceedings though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 Indeed. I'm almost as fed up with that phrase as I was hearing Brown spouting "we've never had it so good" every 5 minutes a mere 12 months ago.... I think you'll find that was Harold MacMillan :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whizzpop Posted 20 January, 2009 Share Posted 20 January, 2009 If administration was around the corner we wouldn't have signed two players one on a two and a half year contract! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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