Gao FT article

[benjii]

By impetus, I don't just mean money. I mean a strategy, a direction, a plan. Something that everyone gets behind that gives them a goal to work towards.

 

Self-sustaining is fine but it needs to be more than just "surviving". It needs to be purposeful.

 

Like them or loathe them, the likes of Lowe and Cortese etc. had discernible strategies (whether they were ultimately sustainable or not). Even under Kat's ownership you knew what you would get, more or less, with Ralph K and Les.

 

At the moment, I'm not sure. They've gone and we don't know what the plan is.

 

Perhaps his strategy is to recruit the best coach possible and hand over more responsibility to the coach than we used to. That's fine if it works and maybe he'll turn out to be a great owner in that respect.

 

As for the other points, they might not directly impact the eleven guys on the pitch but the football club is more to most fans than just that. It's an emotional thing. It matters who owns it.

[egg]

By impetus, I don't just mean money. I mean a strategy, a direction, a plan. Something that everyone gets behind that gives them a goal to work towards.

 

Self-sustaining is fine but it needs to be more than just "surviving". It needs to be purposeful.

 

Like them or loathe them, the likes of Lowe and Cortese etc. had discernible strategies (whether they were ultimately sustainable or not). Even under Kat's ownership you knew what you would get, more or less, with Ralph K and Les.

 

At the moment, I'm not sure. They've gone and we don't know what the plan is.

 

Perhaps his strategy is to recruit the best coach possible and hand over more responsibility to the coach than we used to. That's fine if it works and maybe he'll turn out to be a great owner.

 

As for the other points, they might not directly impact the eleven guys on the pitch but the football club is more to most fans than just that. It's an emotional thing. It matters who owns it.

 

Fair points and understood. I'm less emotional than that and am evidence based. Currently I see that we haven't got a Marcus type with obvious passion and a plan. On the other hand I'm not seeing an owner who's being reckless and prejudicing our club. Let's see how we go but currently I'm no more than wary of Gao.

[shurlock]

Our issue has not been monies for players, its been recruitment.

 

Eh? Monies for players we sold and needed to be replaced (unlike other sides). Because we’ve seen far more churn in personnel and consistently run a surplus (as measured by pretax profits), we’ve had far less margin for error in the absence of fresh investment. In a business as hit-and-miss as the transfer market, especially in the parts we’ve fished in where many signings do not pay off but are more than covered by the occasional huge success, that strategy is difficult to sustain in the long-term (unless you’re hopelessly naive about the success rate of signings).

 

True our recruitment record has been poor and there’s room for improvement; but it has been exacerbated by monies available which have put us under more pressure to be competitive and find the next gem - objectives which are often in tension. In that sense, you simply cannot separate the two as you do.

 

If you can’t understand why others are objectively concerned by aspects of the owner’s behaviour (which according to insiders like Adam Leitch have had a negative effect on the club’s on and off the pitch performance) while continuing to hide behind vacuous strawmen like all businesses borrow (yes but in varying degrees), it’s difficult to have a discussion.

Edited 12 June, 2019 by shurlock

[verlaine1979]

You say:

"If the HK company defaults then Saints could end up being owned by the HK bank"

 

That's the kind of scare mongering that makes threads like this carry on. It's wrong. Individuals and companies are entirely separate legal things and unless there are charges, debentures, loan agreements or other contractual links they have no impact upon each other. There is no evidence to suggest a link, just conjecture on here.

 

Saints are a business entity owned outright by an individual. As such, there's nothing the club could do to stop Gao if he decided that part of being 'self-sustaining' was that the club start paying off the debt he incurred to acquire us. There are several ways he could set up such an arrangement, the various tax implications of which I couldn't speculate on, but to pretend that there is a chinese wall (fnar) between the club's finances and Gao's is, I would suggest, either naive or ignorant.

 

If we were owned by a multi-billionaire who'd taken on debt as some form of financial trickery, that would be one thing. However, the entire market cap of Lander is only about £500m, and I see no reason to believe that Gao's other resources set him up to pay what I'd guess is a high-single figures interest rate on almost £200m of borrowing. That money will have to come from somewhere over the duration of his ownership, and using Man U as an example, I don't see why it's scaremongering to hypothesise that the owner might see the club's sizeable and entirely predictable revenue as a convenient source of funding.

[Faz]

Saints are a business entity owned outright by an individual. As such, there's nothing the club could do to stop Gao if he decided that part of being 'self-sustaining' was that the club start paying off the debt he incurred to acquire us. There are several ways he could set up such an arrangement, the various tax implications of which I couldn't speculate on, but to pretend that there is a chinese wall (fnar) between the club's finances and Gao's is, I would suggest, either naive or ignorant.

 

If we were owned by a multi-billionaire who'd taken on debt as some form of financial trickery, that would be one thing. However, the entire market cap of Lander is only about £500m, and I see no reason to believe that Gao's other resources set him up to pay what I'd guess is a high-single figures interest rate on almost £200m of borrowing. That money will have to come from somewhere over the duration of his ownership, and using Man U as an example, I don't see why it's scaremongering to hypothesise that the owner might see the club's sizeable and entirely predictable revenue as a convenient source of funding.

 

Regarding para 1, you are correct I so far as there is nothing to stop him transferring debt, or charging management fees to the football club to cover his personal commitment. The fact is he had not done that as of the June 2018 accounts.

 

With regard to para 2, what has the market cap of Lander in China got to do with anything, his personal wealth is the only thing of concern, and all we know is he didn’t have £200m in cash down the back of the sofa. Also, who says he borrowed £200m? It appears he borrowed some money, but most deals of this nature will be leveraged to some extent.

 

I do have doubts about Mr Gao, but mostly caused by his opaque ambition for the club, and that is just gut feel really. Once he does the financial engineering he has been accused of doing, I’ll be with you.

[shurlock]

Regarding para 1, you are correct I so far as there is nothing to stop him transferring debt, or charging management fees to the football club to cover his personal commitment. The fact is he had not done that as of the June 2018 accounts.

 

With regard to para 2, what has the market cap of Lander in China got to do with anything, his personal wealth is the only thing of concern, and all we know is he didn’t have £200m in cash down the back of the sofa. Also, who says he borrowed £200m? It appears he borrowed some money, but most deals of this nature will be leveraged to some extent.

 

I do have doubts about Mr Gao, but mostly caused by his opaque ambition for the club, and that is just gut feel really. Once he does the financial engineering he has been accused of doing, I’ll be with you.

 

He borrowed 70% of the purchase price and pledged the vast majority of his stake in Lander Sports Development as collateral for the loans to buy the club.

Edited 12 June, 2019 by shurlock
Temporary memory lapse

[Faz]

He borrowed 90% of the purchase price and pledged the vast majority of his stake in Lander Sports Development as collateral for the loans to buy the club.

 

Thank you. I’m genuinely interested to know where this is recorded.

[shurlock]

Thank you. I’m genuinely interested to know where this is recorded.

 

Sorry it’s 70%.

[Faz]

Sorry it’s 70%.

 

Great. So he transferred £184m to the uk holding co, so his loan is £128m potentially.

 

How do you know he borrowed 70% May I ask? Thanks

[shurlock]

Great. So he transferred £184m to the uk holding co, so his loan is £128m potentially.

 

How do you know he borrowed 70% May I ask? Thanks

 

It was stated in the official announcement at the time, though the link is no longer working:

 

http://www.cninfo.com.cn/finalpage/2017-04-17/1203301621.PDF

 

“标的公司拟通过使用30%自有资金与70%并购贷款的方式支付股权收购 款项,目前并购贷款处于境外金融机构贷款审批流程中”.

 

Which states that borrowed funds made up 70% of the acquisition.

 

The figure was also reported in the Chinese media:

 

https://36kr.com/p/5088259

[verlaine1979]

Regarding para 1, you are correct I so far as there is nothing to stop him transferring debt, or charging management fees to the football club to cover his personal commitment. The fact is he had not done that as of the June 2018 accounts.

 

With regard to para 2, what has the market cap of Lander in China got to do with anything, his personal wealth is the only thing of concern, and all we know is he didn’t have £200m in cash down the back of the sofa. Also, who says he borrowed £200m? It appears he borrowed some money, but most deals of this nature will be leveraged to some extent.

 

I do have doubts about Mr Gao, but mostly caused by his opaque ambition for the club, and that is just gut feel really. Once he does the financial engineering he has been accused of doing, I’ll be with you.

 

What we know of Gao is that he was a bureaucrat who struck out into the private sector during the liberalisation of the Chinese economy. As such, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that his net worth is directly linked to the value of the company he founded, which has been in a slump for several years and is now valued at only about half a billion. I don't know of many entrepreneurs whose wealth exceeds the market cap of the (listed) company they founded, so I'd guess based on that, that he's worth around £200-300m on paper, a fair amount of which will be illiquid, in which case, interest payments of around £10m a year on top of the loan principal would put a pretty substantial dent in his cash flow if it was just being funded from his personal wealth.

 

If smarter financial minds have arguments for why he might be worth a lot more than that, or where else he might be sourcing payments of that magnitude, my mind will be put at rest - but at the moment, looking at the profile of the man, I just can't see how he won't eventually have to start dipping into the kitty, even if he hasn't started right away.

[Faz]

It was stated in the official announcement at the time, though the link is no longer working:

 

http://www.cninfo.com.cn/finalpage/2017-04-17/1203301621.PDF

 

“标的公司拟通过使用30%自有资金与70%并购贷款的方式支付股权收购 款项,目前并购贷款处于境外金融机构贷款审批流程中”.

 

Which states that borrowed funds made up 70% of the acquisition.

 

The figure was also reported in the Chinese media:

 

https://36kr.com/p/5088259

 

Great. My Cantonese is a bit rusty.

[shurlock]

Great. My Cantonese is a bit rusty.

 

It’s Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin are spoken, not written). But I’ll let you off.

[Faz]

What we know of Gao is that he was a bureaucrat who struck out into the private sector during the liberalisation of the Chinese economy. As such, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that his net worth is directly linked to the value of the company he founded, which has been in a slump for several years and is now valued at only about half a billion. I don't know of many entrepreneurs whose wealth exceeds the market cap of the (listed) company they founded, so I'd guess based on that, that he's worth around £200-300m on paper, a fair amount of which will be illiquid, in which case, interest payments of around £10m a year on top of the loan principal would put a pretty substantial dent in his cash flow if it was just being funded from his personal wealth.

 

If smarter financial minds have arguments for why he might be worth a lot more than that, or where else he might be sourcing payments of that magnitude, my mind will be put at rest - but at the moment, looking at the profile of the man, I just can't see how he won't eventually have to start dipping into the kitty, even if he hasn't started right away.

 

In short, you don’t know his personal wealth, but are ready to lay a future crime at his door. Of course you may be proved right in time.

[Nordic Saint]

What we know of Gao is that he was a bureaucrat who struck out into the private sector during the liberalisation of the Chinese economy. As such, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that his net worth is directly linked to the value of the company he founded, which has been in a slump for several years and is now valued at only about half a billion. I don't know of many entrepreneurs whose wealth exceeds the market cap of the (listed) company they founded, so I'd guess based on that, that he's worth around £200-300m on paper, a fair amount of which will be illiquid, in which case, interest payments of around £10m a year on top of the loan principal would put a pretty substantial dent in his cash flow if it was just being funded from his personal wealth.

 

If smarter financial minds have arguments for why he might be worth a lot more than that, or where else he might be sourcing payments of that magnitude, my mind will be put at rest - but at the moment, looking at the profile of the man, I just can't see how he won't eventually have to start dipping into the kitty, even if he hasn't started right away.

 

I think it's just wishful thinking. All available evidence indicates Gao is a poor owner by Premier League standards. Wolves got lucky or perhaps they did their research. Every one of their Chinese owners is in the Forbes Top 400 Chinese rich list and considerably wealthier than Gao, who isn't even in it.

[verlaine1979]

In short, you don’t know his personal wealth, but are ready to lay a future crime at his door. Of course you may be proved right in time.

 

As pointed out elsewhere on the thread, he's not in the Forbes China wealth list, which bottoms out at about $850m, which puts an upper limit on estimates of his wealth at around £650m. Feel free to disagree, but unless you've got a better yardstick for estimating what he's worth than going by the market cap of the only meaningful business he's ever been involved with, then by all means, bring it to the party.

 

As for the rest, not sure if you're just being hyperbolic, but nowhere have I suggested that removing money from the club would be a crime. It would just be sh** for us fans.

[Cabbage_Face]

So we are upset because he doesn’t have more than 850 million dollars but could have 600 million locked up in his Government sponsored vault. Seriously?

 

This place is a mess

 

 

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[sadoldgit]

christ if you're looking to the FA for comfort then good luck to you

 

No. Just pointing out that no matter what you think of Gao and no matter what you think of the vetting process, he got through it. It seems to me that we don’t like him, according to conjecture, because he is foreign, he is not super rich, he doesn’t talk to the fans, he might be a bit dodgy and he intends to carry on running the club the same way it has been run.

[Saint Billy]

No. Just pointing out that no matter what you think of Gao and no matter what you think of the vetting process, he got through it. It seems to me that we don’t like him, according to conjecture, because he is foreign, he is not super rich, he doesn’t talk to the fans, he might be a bit dodgy and he intends to carry on running the club the same way it has been run.

 

Take the foreign bit out and your spot on.

[Doctoroncall]

No. Just pointing out that no matter what you think of Gao and no matter what you think of the vetting process, he got through it. It seems to me that we don’t like him, according to conjecture, because he is foreign, he is not super rich, he doesn’t talk to the fans, he might be a bit dodgy and he intends to carry on running the club the same way it has been run.

 

It’s what Kat said is the next level.

 

Not sure why foreign is pertinent given we’ve had one since the company administration and most PL clubs are foreign owed.

[ErwinK1961]

No. Just pointing out that no matter what you think of Gao and no matter what you think of the vetting process, he got through it. It seems to me that we don’t like him, according to conjecture, because he is foreign, he is not super rich, he doesn’t talk to the fans, he might be a bit dodgy and he intends to carry on running the club the same way it has been run.

 

He may have got through it, but the FA then changed it immediately afterwards to the point he wouldn’t pass it now if he was a new buyer.

 

Speak for yourself, being foreign has nothing to do with it FFS. Personally I’m uneasy about the large borrowings he had to get to buy us in the first, the lack of any sort of communication around plans/strategy and a very questionable sponsorship deal drilling in mystery.

 

If you can’t understand why people are concerned about the current owner, or lines like “as long as the money ends up in SFC’s bank account and in £ sterling then it’s ok” don’t worry you, then that’s your problem.

[sadoldgit]

He may have got through it, but the FA then changed it immediately afterwards to the point he wouldn’t pass it now if he was a new buyer.

 

Speak for yourself, being foreign has nothing to do with it FFS. Personally I’m uneasy about the large borrowings he had to get to buy us in the first, the lack of any sort of communication around plans/strategy and a very questionable sponsorship deal drilling in mystery.

 

If you can’t understand why people are concerned about the current owner, or lines like “as long as the money ends up in SFC’s bank account and in £ sterling then it’s ok” don’t worry you, then that’s your problem.

 

I mention foreign because a particular poster usually throws that in when talking about Gao.

There is a huge difference in having concerns and making assumptions that someone is “dodgy.”

How many owners talk to their fans? Krueger made the point that Gao preferred for comms to come from the Board. What is the problem with that?

People borrow money to buy businesses. What is the problem with that?

We have a new sponsor who are going to give SFC more money than our previous sponsor. What is the problem with that?

Up to this point I can’t really see what he has done as owner of SFC as being dodgy so I can’t start making assumptions based on what may or may not happen in the future. If you want to assume the worst, that is your right.

[shurlock]

Glad others are calling sadoldgit out on his vile insinuations. He loses the argument and resorts to playing the nationality and race card. Textbook.

Edited 13 June, 2019 by shurlock

[Cabbage_Face]

It does seem odd how people react to Chinese owners with "zero" funds.

[verlaine1979]

So we are upset because he doesn’t have more than 850 million dollars but could have 600 million locked up in his Government sponsored vault. Seriously?

 

This place is a mess

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Eh, since £600m is more than the entire share value of Lander, it's an improbable figure that I mentioned only because using the Forbes list, it represents a theoretical upper limit for how much money he's got. The real figure is probably no more than £200-300m, most of which is locked up in Lander, and as such, that makes him pretty poverty-stricken for a PL club owner.

[egg]

Eh, since £600m is more than the entire share value of Lander, it's an improbable figure that I mentioned only because using the Forbes list, it represents a theoretical upper limit for how much money he's got. The real figure is probably no more than £200-300m, most of which is locked up in Lander, and as such, that makes him pretty poverty-stricken for a PL club owner.

This is tedious. Once you've bought a self sustaining football club you don't need money to run that self sustaining football club cos it's self sustaining, thus his wealth is academic. As for trying to guess a man's wealth, jeez.

[Cabbage_Face]

Eh, since £600m is more than the entire share value of Lander, it's an improbable figure that I mentioned only because using the Forbes list, it represents a theoretical upper limit for how much money he's got. The real figure is probably no more than £200-300m, most of which is locked up in Lander, and as such, that makes him pretty poverty-stricken for a PL club owner.

 

What are you on about? Even if he had 600 million quid in his back pocket, he couldn’t chuck it about anyway because of FFP, also we are a self sustaining club , so it doesn’t matter how much dollar he has.

 

Also no one on this place knows of his true wealth.

 

Fans just don’t like him because he is silent and he is Chinese.

 

The world has such a stupid view on China.

 

 

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[Faz]

Eh, since £600m is more than the entire share value of Lander, it's an improbable figure that I mentioned only because using the Forbes list, it represents a theoretical upper limit for how much money he's got. The real figure is probably no more than £200-300m, most of which is locked up in Lander, and as such, that makes him pretty poverty-stricken for a PL club owner.

 

How much money did Gao trouser before Lander was publicly listed?

How much money did Gao trouser when Lander went public?

What percentage of Lander was listed when it went public?

What percentage of Lander does he currently own?

What is the value of his non-China assets?

 

I lay awake at night wondering about such things

Edited 13 June, 2019 by Faz

[verlaine1979]

This is tedious. Once you've bought a self sustaining football club you don't need money to run that self sustaining football club cos it's self sustaining, thus his wealth is academic. As for trying to guess a man's wealth, jeez.

 

Whether a business is 'self-sustaining' or not depends on the competitive context in which it finds itself. I'm not sure why you struggle so much to comprehend that incredibly simple idea. If a self-sustaining club is relegated because all the clubs around it spent more money and recruited better players, what exactly has been sustained?

 

And as for my estimate of his net worth - I suppose it's possible he's squirrelled away a vast fortune and it was just an momentary political inconvenience that prevented him from buying the club in cash. However, I'd suggest that if Jack Ma had wanted to buy Saints, he probably wouldn't have had to cobble together a loan from Hong Kong to do so.

 

I like your optimism, and I hope you're right and that he's loaded and that he won't have to take a penny out of the club ever, and that we'll be able to compete in the league regardless of whether the clubs around us in our mini-league continue to outspend us by tens of millions every window. I'm just pretty sure that you're wrong.

[Cabbage_Face]

I reckon he must nearly be bankrupt, best way to remedy that is to get huge loans to buy a massive business.

 

 

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[egg]

Whether a business is 'self-sustaining' or not depends on the competitive context in which it finds itself. I'm not sure why you struggle so much to comprehend that incredibly simple idea. If a self-sustaining club is relegated because all the clubs around it spent more money and recruited better players, what exactly has been sustained?

 

And as for my estimate of his net worth - I suppose it's possible he's squirrelled away a vast fortune and it was just an momentary political inconvenience that prevented him from buying the club in cash. However, I'd suggest that if Jack Ma had wanted to buy Saints, he probably wouldn't have had to cobble together a loan from Hong Kong to do so.

 

I like your optimism, and I hope you're right and that he's loaded and that he won't have to take a penny out of the club ever, and that we'll be able to compete in the league regardless of whether the clubs around us in our mini-league continue to outspend us by tens of millions every window. I'm just pretty sure that you're wrong.

 

So now your flapping cos based on your Web research, he's not as wealthy as the Bournemouth and some other owners, and that we're in a mess if we get relegated? Your fear of the latter seems to be based on the fact that we won't spend as much as you would like, ie we're back to the expectation that the owner plows cash into the club without any prospect of a return. Business doesn't operate in that way.

 

You ask what has been sustained if we get relegated. If my house was or car was in danger of being repossessed I would fight to preserve my asset and avoid financial loss. Do you seriously think that Gao wouldn't do the same to preserve his? Of course he would - he won't sit back and watch us regress and see his investment diminish in value.

 

You mention my optimism. That's based on a) the fact that I can't do feck all about our club and its ownership so I don't waste my energy flapping about stuff I can't contol, and b) there is no evidence whatsoever that Gao has done anything that could jeopardise our future.

 

This thread began, and my initial position was and remains, that Gao's desire for us to be a self sustainable club is a reasonable desire. Its seems that you and many others think a) that's unreasonable (the verruca salt "daddy I want another pony" syndrome - just remember where we were a few years back - assuming you were dragging yourself to midweek winter games in the league 1 days) and/or b) unrealistic cos of your perception of Gao and his financial position, or whatever.

 

I'll leave it here cos this has been done to death. If you want to have the last word, fill your boots but I'll relax and look forward to the season ahead.

[verlaine1979]

So now your flapping cos based on your Web research, he's not as wealthy as the Bournemouth and some other owners, and that we're in a mess if we get relegated? Your fear of the latter seems to be based on the fact that we won't spend as much as you would like, ie we're back to the expectation that the owner plows cash into the club without any prospect of a return. Business doesn't operate in that way.

 

You ask what has been sustained if we get relegated. If my house was or car was in danger of being repossessed I would fight to preserve my asset and avoid financial loss. Do you seriously think that Gao wouldn't do the same to preserve his? Of course he would - he won't sit back and watch us regress and see his investment diminish in value.

 

You mention my optimism. That's based on a) the fact that I can't do feck all about our club and its ownership so I don't waste my energy flapping about stuff I can't contol, and b) there is no evidence whatsoever that Gao has done anything that could jeopardise our future.

 

This thread began, and my initial position was and remains, that Gao's desire for us to be a self sustainable club is a reasonable desire. Its seems that you and many others think a) that's unreasonable (the verruca salt "daddy I want another pony" syndrome - just remember where we were a few years back - assuming you were dragging yourself to midweek winter games in the league 1 days) and/or b) unrealistic cos of your perception of Gao and his financial position, or whatever.

 

I'll leave it here cos this has been done to death. If you want to have the last word, fill your boots but I'll relax and look forward to the season ahead.

 

You keep banging on about business, but you miss some really obvious stuff. For a start, who says that a higher investment in players wouldn't yield an even greater return? It's not as if good quality young players go down in value once they prove themselves in the league.

 

Anyway, as you say, it's getting repetitive. You think everything's fine, and I think we've got a dud owner and that it's unfortunate for the club and supporters that we're likely to be outspent by just about everyone in the league if we really do stick to our self-sustaining model. One of us is going to be right, and I honestly hope it's you.

[Nordic Saint]

I reckon he must nearly be bankrupt, best way to remedy that is to get huge loans to buy a massive business.

 

 

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You probably didn't notice but he was forced to sell his main business, Lander Sports, which had been rapidly declining in value.

[Cabbage_Face]

You probably didn't notice but he was forced to sell his main business, Lander Sports, which had been rapidly declining in value.

 

Forced? By whom? So basically he sold a business then.

 

Don’t get why people are bothered by this, it’s not like he has come in and started asset stripping. If anything he has actually got rid of two high ranking staff member this place used to hate, les and Ralph.

 

I will worry if we start selling players, letting managers go and replacing them with tosh. If anything, recently, someone has seen the light (with Ralph) and is letting him sign players he wants (djenepo).

 

Don’t get saints fans, hated cortese because he was far to out spoken and arrogant, hate Gao because he is a typical Chinese owner and isn’t flamboyant and very quiet.

 

Odd people.

 

 

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[egg]

Forced? By whom? So basically he sold a business then.

 

Don’t get why people are bothered by this, it’s not like he has come in and started asset stripping. If anything he has actually got rid of two high ranking staff member this place used to hate, les and Ralph.

 

I will worry if we start selling players, letting managers go and replacing them with tosh. If anything, recently, someone has seen the light (with Ralph) and is letting him sign players he wants (djenepo).

 

Don’t get saints fans, hated cortese because he was far to out spoken and arrogant, hate Gao because he is a typical Chinese owner and isn’t flamboyant and very quiet.

 

Odd people.

 

 

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This. As an owner of our club he has done nothing wrong whatsoever. As you say he's binned off Les and Hockey Ralph ; binned Hughes decisively ; hired Ralph ; spent a load of cash last summer ; started spending this summer already.

 

Judge the man based on his actions as our owner, not perceptions and amateur detective work.

[Pilchards]

This. As an owner of our club he has done nothing wrong whatsoever. As you say he's binned off Les and Hockey Ralph ; binned Hughes decisively ; hired Ralph ; spent a load of cash last summer ; started spending this summer already.

 

Judge the man based on his actions as our owner, not perceptions and amateur detective work.

 

Well said, seems to be doing an okay job. Season ticket holders are committed, Got a decent manager and we are now beating top 6 teams.

 

I guess it’s because he’s a quiet man people think he’s odd etc...!

 

PS Cabbage calling people odd is something else.

[Cabbage_Face]

It's pathetic, same fans who wet the bed when we shipped out Cedric, Hoedt and Gabbi in Jan without panic buying replacements, but somehow we managed to stay up and didn't think a manager, who i think, will become more of a legend then Adkins, MoPo, Koeman, Strachan etc, could see the squad for what it was, knew he could keep us up playing a certain way and didn't want to panic buy. Football manager ****s, just sign everyone FFS.

 

Same fans who rate all these utterly average players that come through the ranks, which for some bizarre reason lets them get away with being utterly turd game after game but the players we've bought in are give 6-8 games to prove themselves and if they don't like it, "GET FAKKIINNG SIMS IN FFS". "GALLAGHER IS BETTER THAN ZLATAN" "STEPHENS SHOULD PLAY FOR ENGLAND OVER MAGUIRE".

 

Same fans who want a fan on the board, to moan about the beer, ask for tampons in the loo and expand the stadium at zero cost.

 

Strange strange place, and this comes from me.

[Wurzel]

You keep banging on about business, but you miss some really obvious stuff. For a start, who says that a higher investment in players wouldn't yield an even greater return? It's not as if good quality young players go down in value once they prove themselves in the league.

 

Anyway, as you say, it's getting repetitive. You think everything's fine, and I think we've got a dud owner and that it's unfortunate for the club and supporters that we're likely to be outspent by just about everyone in the league if we really do stick to our self-sustaining model. One of us is going to be right, and I honestly hope it's you.

 

Who says it will ? It's not what you spend it's how you spend it. Fulham spent almost double what we did on players last season. Spurs spent nothing at all. #justsaying

[shurlock]

It's pathetic, same fans who wet the bed when we shipped out Cedric, Hoedt and Gabbi in Jan without panic buying replacements, but somehow we managed to stay up and didn't think a manager, who i think, will become more of a legend then Adkins, MoPo, Koeman, Strachan etc, could see the squad for what it was, knew he could keep us up playing a certain way and didn't want to panic buy. Football manager ****s, just sign everyone FFS.

 

Same fans who rate all these utterly average players that come through the ranks, which for some bizarre reason lets them get away with being utterly turd game after game but the players we've bought in are give 6-8 games to prove themselves and if they don't like it, "GET FAKKIINNG SIMS IN FFS". "GALLAGHER IS BETTER THAN ZLATAN" "STEPHENS SHOULD PLAY FOR ENGLAND OVER MAGUIRE".

 

Same fans who want a fan on the board, to moan about the beer, ask for tampons in the loo and expand the stadium at zero cost.

 

Strange strange place, and this comes from me.

 

[Cabbage_Face]

Nice selfie pal.

 

I see your meme skills are as good as your Chinese detective ones.

 

I had you in my top 3 posters on this forum, sadly you've slipped into mid table.

Edited 14 June, 2019 by Cabbage_Face

[Dark Munster]

It's pathetic, same fans who wet the bed when we shipped out Cedric, Hoedt and Gabbi in Jan without panic buying replacements, but somehow we managed to stay up and didn't think a manager, who i think, will become more of a legend then Adkins, MoPo, Koeman, Strachan etc, could see the squad for what it was, knew he could keep us up playing a certain way and didn't want to panic buy. Football manager ****s, just sign everyone FFS.

 

Same fans who rate all these utterly average players that come through the ranks, which for some bizarre reason lets them get away with being utterly turd game after game but the players we've bought in are give 6-8 games to prove themselves and if they don't like it, "GET FAKKIINNG SIMS IN FFS". "GALLAGHER IS BETTER THAN ZLATAN" "STEPHENS SHOULD PLAY FOR ENGLAND OVER MAGUIRE".

 

Same fans who want a fan on the board, to moan about the beer, ask for tampons in the loo and expand the stadium at zero cost.

 

Strange strange place, and this comes from me.

A lot of straw men there that you've given a jolly good rogering to. Regarding selling/loaning Gabbi and Cedric, bringing in replacements would not have been "panic buys". They didn't have to go in the middle of the season. Ralph admitted getting worried after Obafemi got injured almost immediately after getting rid of Gabby, and the club was lucky Valery only missed one match after Cedric was loaned out. They gambled and got away with it.

[Saint Billy]

I love Cabbage Face and think his posts are very reasoned!!. Eh hmmmm.

[Killers Knee]

Forced? By whom? So basically he sold a business then.

 

Don’t get why people are bothered by this, it’s not like he has come in and started asset stripping. If anything he has actually got rid of two high ranking staff member this place used to hate, les and Ralph.

 

I will worry if we start selling players, letting managers go and replacing them with tosh. If anything, recently, someone has seen the light (with Ralph) and is letting him sign players he wants (djenepo).

 

Don’t get saints fans, hated cortese because he was far to out spoken and arrogant, hate Gao because he is a typical Chinese owner and isn’t flamboyant and very quiet.

 

Odd people.

 

 

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Cortese is a Saints Legend

 

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[verlaine1979]

Who says it will ? It's not what you spend it's how you spend it. Fulham spent almost double what we did on players last season. Spurs spent nothing at all. #justsaying

 

Eh, as so many people are happy to blather on about the club being a business (though I dispute this definition - it's merely a convenient simplification for owners who would prefer not to imagine they have a duty of care over an important community asset), investing to grow is always inherently risky, but businesses do it all the sodding time.

[Faz]

A lot of straw men there that you've given a jolly good rogering to. Regarding selling/loaning Gabbi and Cedric, bringing in replacements would not have been "panic buys". They didn't have to go in the middle of the season. Ralph admitted getting worried after Obafemi got injured almost immediately after getting rid of Gabby, and the club was lucky Valery only missed one match after Cedric was loaned out. They gambled and got away with it.

 

So nothing to do with Ralph wanting to work with a smaller more committed squad then? They (whoever “They” are) gambled.....

[Cabbage_Face]

A lot of straw men there that you've given a jolly good rogering to. Regarding selling/loaning Gabbi and Cedric, bringing in replacements would not have been "panic buys". They didn't have to go in the middle of the season. Ralph admitted getting worried after Obafemi got injured almost immediately after getting rid of Gabby, and the club was lucky Valery only missed one match after Cedric was loaned out. They gambled and got away with it.

 

Jan is THE worst time to buy now, over priced and panic buys galore.

 

 

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[Faz]

Eh, as so many people are happy to blather on about the club being a business (though I dispute this definition - it's merely a convenient simplification for owners who would prefer not to imagine they have a duty of care over an important community asset), investing to grow is always inherently risky, but businesses do it all the sodding time.

 

 

What is your point? You seem very confused.

 

What right do we have to an owner who ploughs tens of millions of his own money into the club?

[Cabbage_Face]

What is your point? You seem very confused.

 

What right do we have to an owner who ploughs tens of millions of his own money into the club?

 

Plus he can’t, FFP

 

 

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[egg]

Eh, as so many people are happy to blather on about the club being a business (though I dispute this definition - it's merely a convenient simplification for owners who would prefer not to imagine they have a duty of care over an important community asset), investing to grow is always inherently risky, but businesses do it all the sodding time.

Can you translate this into an understandable point please. I'm really not sure whether or not you're trying to say that buying players represents an investment to the owner if it's the owners cash being ponied up. If that is your point, if it were Gao money that paid for Hoedt and Carillo please explain the investment part. To me it looks as though the money was spunked away.

[verlaine1979]

Can you translate this into an understandable point please. I'm really not sure whether or not you're trying to say that buying players represents an investment to the owner if it's the owners cash being ponied up. If that is your point, if it were Gao money that paid for Hoedt and Carillo please explain the investment part. To me it looks as though the money was spunked away.

 

My point is that you seem to think that the owner investing money inevitably carries an unacceptable risk, unlikely to lead to a positive return. I'm saying that's obviously not the case, because if you recruit well, you can make a lot of money. Saying Gao shouldn't spend his own money because Wesley Hoedt is a bust would be like arguing that Apple shouldn't have bothered developing the iPad because the Newton was a failure. That, to borrow your beloved phrase, isn't how business works.