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Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

sadoldgit

By sadoldgit,
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shurlock

shurlock

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Posted (edited)
Great article about the great pink Hope from the Spectator, sums him up perfectly.

 

“For Woke Britain, Stewart has now firmly established himself as the least-nasty member of the nasty party. That could help him pick up votes from Labour and Lib Dems in a general election, but it can’t help fill the enormous void at the heart of his pitch for the leadership. He is offering nothing other than the faulty deal which Theresa May negotiated with the EU last November and which has already been comprehensively defeated in the Commons three times – once by a record margin.

 

Rory says he doesn’t know where to start when listing his weaknesses, but I suggest that he puts at the top a failure of imagination and limited reasoning powers to think through a problem. He is all presentation and little substance – which makes him even more an archetypal politician than the opponents from which he is trying to distinguish himself.”

 

 

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A failure of imagination. You mean realism and not believing in unicorns and other undeliverable promises. Or as Ivan Rogers says “I am worried that the longer the sheer lack of seriousness and honesty, the delusion mongering goes on, the more we imperil our long-term prospects”.

 

You and Les crack me pal while also absolutely terrifying me :lol:

Edited by shurlock
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shurlock

shurlock

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Which is obvious to any rational or sane person, thogh Les, as he disappears further down the rabbit hole of conspiracy and cognitive dissonance, will claim that it was also a stitch-up.

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shurlock

shurlock

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Interesting article here about what Boris will likely do once in power:

 

https://beergbrexit.blog/2019/06/09/boris-brexit-wriggleroom/

 

Good piece, though I don't think he would be able to convince Labour supporters to back his smoke-and-mirrors job. In negotiations with May, Labour insisted on a permanent customs union which would require more than a tweak or two of the political declaration. Even then Johnson would be too divisive a figure to cultivate much crossbench trust and Labour would have every political incentive to make life difficult for the Tories. Needless to say, if Johnson did pull of the unimaginable, the Conservative Party would be punished at the next election since there isn't much support or appetite in the country, on both sides, to find a compromise.

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Good piece, though I don't think he would be able to convince Labour supporters to back his smoke-and-mirrors job. In negotiations with May, Labour insisted on a permanent customs union which would require more than a tweak or two of the political declaration. Even then Johnson would be too divisive a figure to cultivate much crossbench trust and Labour would have every political incentive to make life difficult for the Tories. Needless to say, if Johnson did pull of the unimaginable, the Conservative Party would be punished at the next election since there isn't much support or appetite in the country, on both sides, to find a compromise.
Agreed. There's going to be a general election and most likely a coalition of Labour, lib dems and snp if the EU don't just decide to kick us out in October but the years following that will be when the interesting bits happen. Will Farage become PM as some have predicted? Sounds crazy but stranger things have happened! It will probably lead to the implosion of both main parties and then maybe we can get proportional representation in and allow people to have a proper meaningful vote.
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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

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Yes, thanks for the link. It proves that the whole report is a massive stitch up, akin to the BBC responding to complaints about their bias towards remain.

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shurlock

shurlock

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Yes, thanks for the link. It proves that the whole report is a massive stitch up, akin to the BBC responding to complaints about their bias towards remain.

 

 

So what parts of the report do you disagree with, assuming you've read it (I remember you did a runner the last time I asked you this question)?

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badgerx16

badgerx16

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Yes, thanks for the link. It proves that the whole report is a massive stitch up, akin to the BBC responding to complaints about their bias towards remain.

And the reports in the Telegraph, Express, and Sun were completely unbiased when they attacked the EC ? Your blinkers are obstructing your objectivity.

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doddisalegend

doddisalegend

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****ing hell next GE will likely be a choice between a Boris led Conservative party or a Corbyn led Labour party that's like asking would like to be shot in your left leg or your right? I can see the Lib Dems doing quite well at the next election just by not being one of those two horrendous options.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

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****ing hell next GE will likely be a choice between a Boris led Conservative party or a Corbyn led Labour party that's like asking would like to be shot in your left leg or your right? I can see the Lib Dems doing quite well at the next election just by not being one of those two horrendous options.

 

Yep, Lib Dem and SNP will be kingmakers.

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benjii

benjii

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This debate is petty pathetic so far. Boris probably winning by virtue of limiting what he says. Gove and Hunt making prats of themselves and Javid is an also-ran. Stewart asking the sensible questions but it’s all moot if the party and members have resolved for a rambunctious Brexiter; they won’t listen.

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LGTL

LGTL

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The mentalist Brexit at any cost Tories would happily see the breakup of their oh so precious union and destabilising of their oh so precious city businesses if it meant we left the EU without a deal.

 

Odd, hypocritical and spoilt bunch.

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Batman

Batman

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These things are always terrible. This host is shyte too. Why do they never ever get Andrew Neil to do these?

Rory is seemingly more of the same as with the last PM, every time he opposes Boris etc

 

Hunt is never going to be PM after (rightly or wrongly) his PR from the NHS pay issue

The rest are too weak

 

It is going to be Johnson

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saint1977

saint1977

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Interesting article here about what Boris will likely do once in power:

 

https://beergbrexit.blog/2019/06/09/boris-brexit-wriggleroom/

 

Thanks for sharing, interesting that. Boris won’t be as obsessed as May was on a ‘keep em out’ strategy and freedom of movement although he is a divisive figure on both sides of the channel and I don’t know if either the EU or Labour/LD would compromise and the swivels would go demented (or dementia) if it wasn’t straight to No Deal.

 

Whoever takes over this role has a pig of a job - look at the level of divisions on here, on this BBC programme - then magnify it nationally.

 

Boris will win, but not pulling up any trees and sorely lacking in any detail, Hunt solid but as with Javid has much better detail but not quite selling themselves, Gove has the best granularity and just landed a blow on Boris about tax, but not sure he can recover the ground, Stewart deliberately standing apart and actually it’s refreshing but I can’t see him winning this race. Talent though, he and to a certain extent Gove come across as being more in touch. I bet Ducky and Wes are shouting and throwing cans at the screen every time Stewart speaks though

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saint1977

saint1977

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Gove reversing the prat-o-meter a fair bit. Johnson waffling. Stewart not being a Tory enough. Hunt, meh. Javid out of his depth.

 

Broadly agree, I think Javid is doing better than that but just doesn’t quite sell himself. Whereas Boris does project himself but there’s nothing there in the way of detail. Mind you, he is really uncomfortable on the question from Bristol, waffling again and not answering it. The swivels in the shires won’t be bothered but it does remind you that he would severely struggle in any future GE.

 

Stewart is not Tory enough for the 2019/1959 version, would be brilliant to replace Cable if he was an LD and I would certainly vote for him as a political centrist and suspect a lot of others would as well. He has a big future.

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

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would be brilliant to replace Cable if he was an LD and I would certainly vote for him as a political centrist and suspect a lot of others would as well. He has a big future.

 

IF he was a lib/dem. He is a ****ing lib/dem.

 

What makes me laugh is pinkos who love him, Wollaston, Allen and others as if they’re somehow different from other politicians. In fact they’re far far worse. They’ve basically rocked up in the Tory party because they’ve more chance of being elected as Tories than Lib Dem’s. If the Lib Dem’s & Labour were the 2 major parties they’d be in one of them. They haven’t got a principled bone in their bodies. Any party that increases their chances of being elected they’ll join. Cameron has got a lot to answer for, encouraging these chances. Luckily, via deselections the members will drain the swamp, but it’ll take a while.....

 

 

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shurlock

shurlock

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IF he was a lib/dem. He is a ****ing lib/dem.

 

What makes me laugh is pinkos who love him, Wollaston, Allen and others as if they’re somehow different from other politicians. In fact they’re far far worse. They’ve basically rocked up in the Tory party because they’ve more chance of being elected as Tories than Lib Dem’s. If the Lib Dem’s & Labour were the 2 major parties they’d be in one of them. They haven’t got a principled bone in their bodies. Any party that increases their chances of being elected they’ll join. Cameron has got a lot to answer for, encouraging these chances. Luckily, via deselections the members will drain the swamp, but it’ll take a while.....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I guess you’ve never heard of ‘one nation conservatism’. Read a book pal.

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Batman

Batman

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what ever you think of the personalities

 

that format was terrible. Hardly took off and nothing really said. They all know they have to show up and survive.

 

The host was dire, the questions were dire, the whole thing was dire.

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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what ever you think of the personalities

 

that format was terrible. Hardly took off and nothing really said. They all know they have to show up and survive.

 

The host was dire, the questions were dire, the whole thing was dire.

The host was absolutely rubbish definitely not commanding enough. The main thing that most people seem to have taken from it if you read the twitter comments is an independent review into flippin islamophobia. Good to see their priorities are in check.
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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

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Broadly agree, I think Javid is doing better than that but just doesn’t quite sell himself. Whereas Boris does project himself but there’s nothing there in the way of detail. Mind you, he is really uncomfortable on the question from Bristol, waffling again and not answering it. The swivels in the shires won’t be bothered but it does remind you that he would severely struggle in any future GE.

 

Stewart is not Tory enough for the 2019/1959 version, would be brilliant to replace Cable if he was an LD and I would certainly vote for him as a political centrist and suspect a lot of others would as well. He has a big future.

 

Totally agree with the last sentence, he would be brilliant if he joined the Lib Dems.

 

Hunt was pretty decent.

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saint1977

saint1977

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IF he was a lib/dem. He is a ****ing lib/dem.

 

What makes me laugh is pinkos who love him, Wollaston, Allen and others as if they’re somehow different from other politicians. In fact they’re far far worse. They’ve basically rocked up in the Tory party because they’ve more chance of being elected as Tories than Lib Dem’s. If the Lib Dem’s & Labour were the 2 major parties they’d be in one of them. They haven’t got a principled bone in their bodies. Any party that increases their chances of being elected they’ll join. Cameron has got a lot to answer for, encouraging these chances. Luckily, via deselections the members will drain the swamp, but it’ll take a while.....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Or it’s a diversity of opinion? Parties go through cycles, Labour is back on its early 80s era of Trots running its NEC and anyone in the centre or right of the party is a Red Tory. Ditto, the Tories are also back in the early-mid 80s ideologically as well with the extremists in charge. People get sick quickly though history shows of key decisions made purely or largely on ideology and the middle ground comes back into play with reformist figures emerging, especially as the Brexit Party are such a short term and single issue who would get totally exposed for what they are in a GE campaign where they couldn’t hide.

 

After all, ideological purity doesn’t put bread on the table which the 600k members of the Tory and Labour parties right now have totally lost reality on.

 

In terms of ‘draining the swamp’, fine by me as the Brexit Party and Momentum entryists will kill both main parties, and we will end up with coalition government as we have in Europe, ironically. Although not sure I want to use a phrase made famous by a far right President,

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shurlock

shurlock

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The host was absolutely rubbish definitely not commanding enough. The main thing that most people seem to have taken from it if you read the twitter comments is an independent review into flippin islamophobia. Good to see their priorities are in check.

 

Maitlis is usually pretty good but was awful tonight. The format was poor but televised leadership debates are in themselves not very TV-worthy. The candidates are ultimately colleagues, so were never going to go hard on each other and engage in “blue on blue action”. The result is that it was lifeless and superficial.

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Maitlis is usually pretty good but was awful tonight. The format was poor but televised leadership debates are in themselves not very TV-worthy. The candidates are ultimately colleagues, so were never going to go hard on each other and engage in “blue on blue action”. The result is that it was lifeless and superficial.
I think pretty much all of them are relatively uninspiring. No one can articulate a proper vision for Britain other than the usual virtue signalling platitudes and just bumbling from Boris. With the absolute state of the opposition I really think we will look back on this period as the absolute low point for political talent in this country.
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shurlock

shurlock

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I think pretty much all of them are relatively uninspiring. No one can articulate a proper vision for Britain other than the usual virtue signalling platitudes and just bumbling from Boris. With the absolute state of the opposition I really think we will look back on this period as the absolute low point for political talent in this country.

 

Gove is the most polished of the lot; then again, he’s a speccy spudhead and doesn’t have the effortless confidence that people expect leaders to possess (which isn’t a bad thing).

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hypochondriac

hypochondriac

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Gove is the most polished of the lot; then again, he’s a speccy spudhead and doesn’t have the effortless confidence that people expect leaders to possess (which isn’t a bad thing).
That's probably true but it's Michael gove. I can't believe anyone would vote for someone like him, particularly when you look at his ideologically possessed vision when he was in charge of schools. And as you mentioned he's a speccy weirdo.

 

5405663a9e6551e78159da97adb0276f.jpg

Edited by hypochondriac
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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

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That's probably true but it's Michael gove. I can't believe anyone would vote for someone like him, particularly when you look at his ideologically possessed vision when he was in charge of schools. And as you mentioned he's a speccy weirdo.

 

5405663a9e6551e78159da97adb0276f.jpg

 

Gove is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of substance, ideas & delivery of those ideas. In a zombie May Government he’s the only minister that had vision and clear thinking. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea but he’d drive forward his vision, whereas some of the other soft arses would let the civil service manage them.

 

He’s obviously on the wrong wing of the party for me, but he’s sound. We need more like him.

 

 

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Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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whelk

whelk

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Gove is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of substance, ideas & delivery of those ideas. In a zombie May Government he’s the only minister that had vision and clear thinking. He’s not everyone’s cup of tea but he’d drive forward his vision, whereas some of the other soft arses would let the civil service manage them.

 

He’s obviously on the wrong wing of the party for me, but he’s sound. We need more like him.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Agree. Has an unfortunate face too but actually does have substance.

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