Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

[Cabbage_Face]

If I were Boris, I'd let Raab have this one, as whichever Brexiteer wins they will be out within 3 months as they'll have lost a GE.

 

Still not 100% sure how to use my vote TBH. Although I have to say I have only just noticed my £2.00 direct debit is still going out of my account every month...

 

Who they losing as GE to?

 

T

 

 

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[Unbelievable Jeff]

Who they losing as GE to?

 

T

 

 

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It'll be a Labour, SNP, Lib Dem coalition.

[Cabbage_Face]

It'll be a Labour, SNP, Lib Dem coalition.

 

 

Bants.

[Baird of the land]

It's going to end up being Boris isn't it?

 

At least we'll see a confidence vote and then a GE. And then no Brexit.

 

Or the break up of the UK given how toxic he is considered outside of England.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Bants.

 

Currently 313 plays 294 - you don't think this gap would close?

[edprice1984]

The problem for any new leader is that the Parliamentary arithmetic remains the same. No Deal (although the default) is the least popular option available and there are plenty of Conservative MP's who will bring down any government that tries to force this through.

 

A General Election is the most likely scenario (early December is my best guess) with another Hung Parliament and a Labour-LibDem coalition.

[Sheaf Saint]

An interesting if unsurprising insight into the world of Johnson...

 

https://twitter.com/jonlis1/status/1139067505094402049

[Lord Duckhunter]

Or the break up of the UK given how toxic he is considered outside of England.

 

Win Win. Leave the EU ,lose the Sweaties and finally rid ourselves of NI. What’s not to like. A modern radical English nation going out confidently into the world. Leave the whinging sweaties behind, let the Germans take over subsidising them.

 

 

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[buctootim]

Currently 313 plays 294 - you don't think this gap would close?

 

The problem is that many of them wont necessarily vote with their beliefs but will, like Johnson in Sheaf Saint's link above, act in their own interests.

[Cabbage_Face]

Currently 313 plays 294 - you don't think this gap would close?

 

They would need to win by a big enough margin to make it legitimate, and we must vote until this happens.

 

No I don't think it will. Reason why..............Silent voters. Happens every GE and Vote.

[badgerx16]

Win Win. Leave the EU ,lose the Sweaties and finally rid ourselves of NI. What’s not to like. A modern radical English nation going out confidently into the world. Leave the whinging sweaties behind, let the Germans take over subsidising them.

What a narrow minded and bigoted view you hold of the world.

[sandwichsaint]

Sillage is the wake of a perfume. It's the extent to which a smell lingers. She looks like she would smell of lavender. She brings to mind scents of granny.

 

She's probably got a drawer containing Fry's mint cream, some Murray Mints and some Opal Fruits, has a mild opioid addiction fuelled by medicines containing codeine and puts way too much butter on everything, on account of it no longer being rationed.

 

RIP grandma.

 

Cheers for that, never heard it before.

[sadoldgit]

Win Win. Leave the EU ,lose the Sweaties and finally rid ourselves of NI. What’s not to like. A modern radical English nation going out confidently into the world. Leave the whinging sweaties behind, let the Germans take over subsidising them.

 

 

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I wish you were joking Duckie, but sadly you confirm everyday on here that you are stuck in the parody of a bigoted 70’s British male. What I find more surprising is that you are actually younger than me. You come across in your language and beliefs as someone born in the 40’s. I have to tell you that the world of Sweaties, Birds, Chicks, Lefties, Pinkos etc ended a long time ago. Sadly you and many of your ilk will get to chose the next Prime Minister. Quite ironic given how you lot bleat about Remainers being undemocratic. I can’t think of a less democratic way of choosing our PM.

[Guided Missile]

I can’t think of a less democratic way of choosing our PM.

The governing party that is democratically elected get to chose their leader. Whilst they are in power, their leader is then the PM...simple, really and why the election is referred to as the leadership election. Democracy happens when you get to elect your local representative.

[badgerx16]

I can’t think of a less democratic way of choosing our PM.

As GM says above, this is the way it happens, exactly how Gordon Brown became PM. However, some of the non-Brexit related policy statements might be classed as undemocratic, as they haven't been presented in manifestos and subjected to public debate and vote.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

They would need to win by a big enough margin to make it legitimate, and we must vote until this happens.

 

No I don't think it will. Reason why..............Silent voters. Happens every GE and Vote.

 

By the silent voters voted in the last election. Not sure what difference you think it'd make to the numbers.

[shurlock]

As GM says above, this is the way it happens, exactly how Gordon Brown became PM. However, some of the non-Brexit related policy statements might be classed as undemocratic, as they haven't been presented in manifestos and subjected to public debate and vote.

 

Which Boris Johnson called “a gigantic fraud...arrogant and contemptuous...as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero...evidence of a political world gone mad”.

[badgerx16]

Which Boris Johnson called “a gigantic fraud...arrogant and contemptuous...as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero...evidence of a political world gone mad”.

Hypocrisy is an essential life skill for politicians.

[Sheaf Saint]

Which Boris Johnson called “a gigantic fraud...arrogant and contemptuous...as democratically proper as the transition from Claudius to Nero...evidence of a political world gone mad”.

 

Though I am loathe to in any way defend the man, the two scenarios are somewhat different. The Tories are at least holding a proper contest and giving their members the chance to choose their new leader, which Labour didn't bother with in 2007.

[ecuk268]

Though I am loathe to in any way defend the man, the two scenarios are somewhat different. The Tories are at least holding a proper contest and giving their members the chance to choose their new leader, which Labour didn't bother with in 2007.

 

"Their members" being about 150000 97 year-olds.

[badgerx16]

..... which Labour didn't bother with in 2007.

To stand for a leadership contest at that time, a candidate needed the backing of 12.5% of MPs, ( 45 ). Brown had over 90% backing him at the nomination stage, hence it was uncontested.

Edited 14 June, 2019 by badgerx16
correct percentage

[sadoldgit]

The governing party that is democratically elected get to chose their leader. Whilst they are in power, their leader is then the PM...simple, really and why the election is referred to as the leadership election. Democracy happens when you get to elect your local representative.

 

I know, but when you listen to people talk about who they voted for it is usually the leader they mention as in Thatcher, Blair etc. I can’t recall the last time anyone said they voted for their actual MP in a conversation about elections. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if many people had no idea who their MP is. There are people who say they always vote Labour but don’t do so as long as Cronyn is the Party leader. Unless he is their standing MP, why does it make a difference? Because we vote, or don’t vote, for personalities. Many Tories want Johnson to win because they believe he can win the next election. If it was just a question of a party vote, why is it so important who the leader is? If Farage was a Tory, can you imagine the fallout if he became their next leader and our Prime Minister? I have voted for all three main parties in various elections over the years, but mostly for the LibDems. Despite still believing in their policies I have voted tactically recently because of Clegg and the coalition. I don’t have a problem with my local LD candidate.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I wish you were joking Duckie, but sadly you confirm everyday on here that you are stuck in the parody of a bigoted 70’s British male. What I find more surprising is that you are actually younger than me. You come across in your language and beliefs as someone born in the 40’s. I have to tell you that the world of Sweaties, Birds, Chicks, Lefties, Pinkos etc ended a long time ago. Sadly you and many of your ilk will get to chose the next Prime Minister. Quite ironic given how you lot bleat about Remainers being undemocratic. I can’t think of a less democratic way of choosing our PM.

 

You’re the one stuck in the past. Wedded to the EU, The NHS, The Union. I long for a radical England, free from the shackles of Pinko thinking that has dominated British politics (save for the great lady) since the 60’s. No monarch, no House of Lords, that’s not 1970’s, that’s a modern flexible country. It’s conservative’s like you holding the country back, desperate for the status quo.

 

 

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[Tamesaint]

You’re the one stuck in the past. Wedded to the EU, The NHS, The Union. I long for a radical England, free from the shackles of Pinko thinking that has dominated British politics (save for the great lady) since the 60’s. No monarch, no House of Lords, that’s not 1970’s, that’s a modern flexible country. It’s conservative’s like you holding the country back, desperate for the status quo.

 

 

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Can anyone else see the irony of a person accusing others of being "stuck in the past" but who repeatedly venerates the Tory leader of the 1970's and 80's ???

[saint1977]

Can anyone else see the irony of a person accusing others of being "stuck in the past" but who repeatedly venerates the Tory leader of the 1970's and 80's ???

 

Yep, I think most of us can see it. Just watching the piece on C4 News about how private owners on flats have been left with bills going up to £100k per person to remove high flammable cladding and that the £200k fund only covers the form of cladding which caused Grenfell. The fund is only 10% of what the LGA estimates is needed to address the market failures.

 

Still, I’m sure LD’s choice will have the ideological ‘stomach’ to kill more people through not regulating to basic public safety standards expected in the developed world.

 

Now watching coverage about the bus attack on the two lesbian women, assuming Boris does win he has some huge issues on his hands if he does want to genuinely bring the country back together, and that’s excluding Brexit.

 

Would rather he tackled those than gave me a tax cut on the backs of people earning less than me.

[whelk]

Can anyone else see the irony of a person accusing others of being "stuck in the past" but who repeatedly venerates the Tory leader of the 1970's and 80's ???

 

He will have wnked himself stupid over recent BBC docs.

[shurlock]

I thought most people grew out of libertarianism after their boll*cks dropped and they lost their virginity - I didn't realise it afflicted geriatric #properdrinkers too.

[badgerx16]

Though I am loathe to in any way defend the man, the two scenarios are somewhat different. The Tories are at least holding a proper contest and giving their members the chance to choose their new leader, which Labour didn't bother with in 2007.

Daily Torygraph headline today;

"Ministers plot to ensure Johnson is only name on ballot".

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can anyone else see the irony of a person accusing others of being "stuck in the past" but who repeatedly venerates the Tory leader of the 1970's and 80's ???

 

Some people transcend the generations. You’re not”stuck in the past” if you enjoy Shakespeare or Lennon & McCartney. If modern politicians had one tenth of Maggie’s foresight & guts the country wouldn’t be in such a mess. Instead of achievers like her, Norman Tebbitt & Nigel Lawson, we’ve no marks like Rory Look at me Stewart & Chucka 3 parties.

 

 

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[buctootim]

Some people transcend the generations. You’re not”stuck in the past” if you enjoy Shakespeare or Lennon & McCartney. If modern politicians had one tenth of Maggie’s foresight & guts the country wouldn’t be in such a mess. Instead of achievers like her, Norman Tebbitt & Nigel Lawson, we’ve no marks like Rory Look at me Stewart & Chucka 3 parties.

 

 

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Aah the good old days of Lawson. Tax cuts causing a record current account deficit despite record north sea oil receipts; 9.5% inflation, house price inflation of up to 30% and record levels of house repossessions as interest rates reached 15%. Oh and followed by a recession and seven years when it became almost impossible to sell your house as prices collapsed again.

 

You're a sucker for a simple "get rich quick, you can have it all" story aren't you?

 

You should read up on psychology. People lay down their strongest memories between 15 and 25. Whatever you did then, whatever music you listened to, whatever values were held tend to persist in peoples minds as "the best" - ******** to any empirical measures or the fact that people of different ages will likely have different equally legitimate views - they're just pinko wets who are wrong.

Edited 15 June, 2019 by buctootim

[sadoldgit]

Some people transcend the generations. You’re not”stuck in the past” if you enjoy Shakespeare or Lennon & McCartney. If modern politicians had one tenth of Maggie’s foresight & guts the country wouldn’t be in such a mess. Instead of achievers like her, Norman Tebbitt & Nigel Lawson, we’ve no marks like Rory Look at me Stewart & Chucka 3 parties.

 

 

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Trust me Duckie, it is entirely possible to enjoy the works of the Bard without speaking medieval English on internet forums every day. Likewise it is possible to enjoy The Beatles without slipping into a mock Scouse accent. People stopped calling women "Birds" and "Chicks" in the last century. You are not transcending the generations, you are stuck in a time warp.

She sowed the see

As for Thatcher, I voted for her first time round but have not made that mistake since and that was the last time I voted Tory. She sowed the seeds of divisiveness in this country, spawning the Yuppie ("Me") generation. She royally f**ked industry here, something that we will never get back again. Thanks to her we have moved on from being a nation of shopkeepers to being a nation of baristas. And now The Blue Rinse Brigade is going to land us with Boris effin Johnson!

[badgerx16]

I thought most people grew out of libertarianism after their boll*cks dropped and they lost their virginity.....

That statement makes 2 assumptions about the subject.

[Tamesaint]

 

You should read up on psychology. People lay down their strongest memories between 15 and 25. Whatever you did then, whatever music you listened to, whatever values were held tend to persist in peoples minds as "the best" - ******** to any empirical measures or the fact that people of different ages will likely have different equally legitimate views - they're just pinko wets who are wrong.

 

I think that you have hit the nail on the head here ..... and LD accuses others of living in the past. lol.

[revolution saint]

Aah the good old days of Lawson. Tax cuts causing a record current account deficit despite record north sea oil receipts; 9.5% inflation, house price inflation of up to 30% and record levels of house repossessions as interest rates reached 15%. Oh and followed by a recession and seven years when it became almost impossible to sell your house as prices collapsed again.

 

You're a sucker for a simple "get rich quick, you can have it all" story aren't you?

 

You should read up on psychology. People lay down their strongest memories between 15 and 25. Whatever you did then, whatever music you listened to, whatever values were held tend to persist in peoples minds as "the best" - ******** to any empirical measures or the fact that people of different ages will likely have different equally legitimate views - they're just pinko wets who are wrong.

 

 

Does that mean JRM is 200 years old?

[buctootim]

Does that mean JRM is 200 years old?

I used to work a bit with his dad William who wrote 'The Sovereign Individual'. There's is a good analysis of it the Guardian. I think JRM believes his Dad's predictions and is using what he sees as credulous plebs to bring about a Britain where gets to be even richer.

 

The book foresaw a backlash against the footloose, cosmopolitan elites that digital technology would help create. The economy’s “losers”, as Rees-Mogg and Davidson called them, who “do not excel in problem-solving or possess globally marketable skills”, would turn to nationalism and bitter nostalgia. They would “seek to thwart the movement of capital and people across borders”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/nov/09/mystic-mogg-jacob-rees-mogg-willam-predicts-brexit-plans

Edited 16 June, 2019 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

Oh dear, Rory will upset his leftie fan boys today. Speaking to Nigel earlier he had this to say.

 

“We need to find a way, as a party, of reaching out to you and bring you in to try to work out how we crack this.”

 

 

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[Tamesaint]

Oh dear, Rory will upset his leftie fan boys today. Speaking to Nigel earlier he had this to say.

 

“We need to find a way, as a party, of reaching out to you and bring you in to try to work out how we crack this.”

 

 

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He probably thinks that Nigel will be happy with a few pints and a bag of pork scratchings down at the "Racist and Ferret".

 

I suspect that he knows that the best way to "reach out" to Snout in the Trough Farage will be to offer him filthy lucre.

[buctootim]

Poor old Rory. He has attracted the backing of Theresa May. That will likely be the kiss of death amongst the members.

[Wes Tender]

Poor old Rory. He has attracted the backing of Theresa May. That will likely be the kiss of death amongst the members.

 

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the Conservative Party membership would have given Stewart more than a few percent regardless. It was appropriate that he launched his campaign in a circus tent; the bloke's' a clown. May supporting him only confirms what everybody already knew about her, that she is and always has been a remoaner.

[buctootim]

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the Conservative Party membership would have given Stewart more than a few percent regardless. It was appropriate that he launched his campaign in a circus tent; the bloke's' a clown. May supporting him only confirms what everybody already knew about her, that she is and always has been a remoaner.

 

You don't even understand your own party, let alone more complicated stuff like Brexit. Conservative Home had him in second place in support of members, albeit a long way behind Johnson.

[shurlock]

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the Conservative Party membership would have given Stewart more than a few percent regardless. It was appropriate that he launched his campaign in a circus tent; the bloke's' a clown. May supporting him only confirms what everybody already knew about her, that she is and always has been a remoaner.

 

Les can I buy you and LD a #properdrink after you’ve finished destroying the Conservative Party and possibly Brexit?

[Wes Tender]

You don't even understand your own party, let alone more complicated stuff like Brexit. Conservative Home had him in second place in support of members, albeit a long way behind Johnson.

 

Don't try and make out that I don't understand the party that I have been a member of since I was 19 years old, nor that I don't understand Brexit. Perhaps you need reminding that you're the one who thought that we would go for a Norway style deal.

 

Just so that you know, I read both Brexit Central and Conservative Home on a daily basis, so I realise that he was in second place among the membership who subscribe to Conservative Home. As Johnson has a record vote on Conservative Home for this polling with now over half of the vote, and Stewart struggles to get just into double figures 40 percent behind, I don't think that him being second is anything significant, is it? He would have to multiply his support by around four times, whereas several rivals would only have to add a small percentage to overtake him.

 

I thought that you were more intelligent than to believe that this poll position for Stewart was of any serious relevance.

[Wes Tender]

Les can I buy you and LD a #properdrink after you’ve finished destroying the Conservative Party and possibly Brexit?

 

LD and me are just two individuals, just a couple of voters among the majority of the electorate that voted to leave the EU. I expect that we're both flattered that you credit us with such power over just not our Party, but also the Government and its policy over Brexit. But in all modesty, I have to confess that you ought to be placing the credit for potentially finishing off the Conservative Party with the incompetent May, certain members of her cabinet, and MPs, representing that substantial majority of constituencies which voted to leave, but who can't bring themselves to obey their electorate. Of course, the same existential threat faces the Labour Party for the same reasons.

[shurlock]

Raab getting destroyed

[shurlock]

LD and me are just two individuals, just a couple of voters among the majority of the electorate that voted to leave the EU. I expect that we're both flattered that you credit us with such power over just not our Party, but also the Government and its policy over Brexit. But in all modesty, I have to confess that you ought to be placing the credit for potentially finishing off the Conservative Party with the incompetent May, certain members of her cabinet, and MPs, representing that substantial majority of constituencies which voted to leave, but who can't bring themselves to obey their electorate. Of course, the same existential threat faces the Labour Party for the same reasons.

 

Not really Les. Brexit splits Labour but not to a much lesser degree than the Tories. For starters, you massively misunderstand the nature of the Labour leave vote (see below and before you foam at the mouth about Baroness Ashton, play the ball, not the man and tell me what’s wrong with the analysis).

 

Come a general election, you’ll find that many Labour leave voters don’t care as much about Brexit as they do about the state of public services and social policy. That is the nature of a GE that is fought on multiple issues. One of the lessons of the Peterborough by-election, a proper leave constituency, is that the Brexit Party split or cannibalised the Tory vote. By contrast, the Labour vote held up much better. It’s not hard to see a similar pattern repeating itself up and down Labour leave constituencies.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/labour-brexit-remain-voters-european-elections

Edited 16 June, 2019 by shurlock

[buctootim]

Don't try and make out that I don't understand the party that I have been a member of since I was 19 years old, nor that I don't understand Brexit. Perhaps you need reminding that you're the one who thought that we would go for a Norway style deal.

 

Just so that you know, I read both Brexit Central and Conservative Home on a daily basis, so I realise that he was in second place among the membership who subscribe to Conservative Home. As Johnson has a record vote on Conservative Home for this polling with now over half of the vote, and Stewart struggles to get just into double figures 40 percent behind, I don't think that him being second is anything significant, is it? He would have to multiply his support by around four times, whereas several rivals would only have to add a small percentage to overtake him.

 

I thought that you were more intelligent than to believe that this poll position for Stewart was of any serious relevance.

Doh. If anything was to happen to Johnson - like open his mouth or leave the house - Stewart would be in pole position.

[Wes Tender]

Doh. If anything was to happen to Johnson - like open his mouth or leave the house - Stewart would be in pole position.

 

You really don't have a clue. Three Bins Stewart has to get into the last two of the Parliamentary Party before being put before the Party membership. And even if he made it into the last two, the only thing that would get him to win would be a fatal accident to Boris.

[badgerx16]

, the only thing that would get him to win would be a fatal accident to Boris.

The biggest potential 'fatal' threat to Boris's campaign, is Boris. We live in hope. :-)

[sadoldgit]

You really don't have a clue. Three Bins Stewart has to get into the last two of the Parliamentary Party before being put before the Party membership. And even if he made it into the last two, the only thing that would get him to win would be a fatal accident to Boris.

 

Which given that Stewart is the least objectionable of the bunch, tells you all you need to know about the Tory party right now.

[norwaysaint]

It's amazing. The labour party managed to find the only leader unelectable enough to fail to make headway when the Tory party was at its lowest ebb. Now the tories have managed to find such an objectionable, laughable bunch of dislikeable idiots, it's like they are trying to keep it competitive.