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Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted (edited)
Raab has been my pick since December.

 

He has insider insight of the negotiations (even though he was constantly overridden by May and Robbins).

 

Not to mention he studied (and won prizes) international law at oxbridge.

 

You haven't met him have you? A friend in Cobham went to a session with him 2 months ago, and absolutely destroyed him. She is a lawyer tbf (although property), but he was woefully underprepared, and tied himself in knots - below is a precis, but was excellent to watch in person.

 

He's really not very bright.

Edited by Unbelievable Jeff
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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted

A rundown of my meeting with Dominic Raab.

 

1. It was heated.

 

2. He is as arrogant in person as he appears in the media

 

3. He did not like being challenged.

 

4. He accused @tbramadan of saying something that was ‘nonsense’ so @tbramadan called out his own nonsense

 

5. Asked about illegalities of https://t.co/g4LIcSqZDJ and Vote Leave, he said “just because there were some illegalities it doesn’t mean the whole thing should be vitiated” and elucidated that “there is always some law-breaking in every general election but result remains”

 

6. Asked about the effectiveness and transparency of a referendum vote which did not present the options of a) remain on current terms b) remain on the renegotiated terms agreed with EU in Feb 2016, c) leave on WTO d) leave but e.g. stay in customs union, he glossed over.

 

7. He denied ‘voting for’ TM’s deal in MV3. He lambasted me for not reading his speech setting out his rationale, accusing me of having the nerve to come and call him out without reading it, and was unhappy when I pointed out the net effect was the same, regardless of motive.

 

8. Asked about the comparability of the GFA with a no-deal exit, he countered that it wasn’t incompatible. He said “the bigger question is whether the government’s deal is a threat to GFA”. The same deal that he effectively backed in MV3- he denied backing it but temper rose.

 

9. One to remember for the future, when asked about anticipated period of uncertainty and lead-in period to perceived benefits, he opined that there would be a “3-6 month buffeting period as we saw through the transition”. Sunlit uplands after 6 months, people!

 

10. His rationale for economic optimism is based on his own ‘research’- he was unable to confirm any particular source. However, he explained that “the Bank of England forecasted that we would enter recession if we even voted to leave” I.e. the experts were wrong

 

11. The alleges that the polls remain aligned with the 2016 result, citing Yougov as one source. Have not fact checked this but will do so. Suspect this is not entirely true.

 

12. I called him out for saying, on the one hand, that we had to “respect the will of the people” by implementing the referendum vote yet, on the other hand, that the public opinion has shifted further in favour of Brexit.

 

13. Everything he did for the Vote Leave campaign was designed to keep Farage out of power apparently.

 

14. If we don’t deliver Brexit the people will, effectively, revolt. I told him that, to use the terminology of the leave campaign, we would not be cowed “project fear”.

 

15. I expect he didn’t much like speaking to me. I guess this may align with his political view of (some) feminists being “obnoxious bigots” and that “men get a raw deal” (Politics Home article, 2011).

 

16. I am left shaking with anger & needing to vent by way of catharsis.

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Nolan

Nolan

Posted
Posted
A rundown of my meeting with Dominic Raab.

 

1. It was heated.

 

2. He is as arrogant in person as he appears in the media

 

3. He did not like being challenged.

 

4. He accused @tbramadan of saying something that was ‘nonsense’ so @tbramadan called out his own nonsense

 

5. Asked about illegalities of https://t.co/g4LIcSqZDJ and Vote Leave, he said “just because there were some illegalities it doesn’t mean the whole thing should be vitiated” and elucidated that “there is always some law-breaking in every general election but result remains”

 

6. Asked about the effectiveness and transparency of a referendum vote which did not present the options of a) remain on current terms b) remain on the renegotiated terms agreed with EU in Feb 2016, c) leave on WTO d) leave but e.g. stay in customs union, he glossed over.

 

7. He denied ‘voting for’ TM’s deal in MV3. He lambasted me for not reading his speech setting out his rationale, accusing me of having the nerve to come and call him out without reading it, and was unhappy when I pointed out the net effect was the same, regardless of motive.

 

8. Asked about the comparability of the GFA with a no-deal exit, he countered that it wasn’t incompatible. He said “the bigger question is whether the government’s deal is a threat to GFA”. The same deal that he effectively backed in MV3- he denied backing it but temper rose.

 

9. One to remember for the future, when asked about anticipated period of uncertainty and lead-in period to perceived benefits, he opined that there would be a “3-6 month buffeting period as we saw through the transition”. Sunlit uplands after 6 months, people!

 

10. His rationale for economic optimism is based on his own ‘research’- he was unable to confirm any particular source. However, he explained that “the Bank of England forecasted that we would enter recession if we even voted to leave” I.e. the experts were wrong

 

11. The alleges that the polls remain aligned with the 2016 result, citing Yougov as one source. Have not fact checked this but will do so. Suspect this is not entirely true.

 

12. I called him out for saying, on the one hand, that we had to “respect the will of the people” by implementing the referendum vote yet, on the other hand, that the public opinion has shifted further in favour of Brexit.

 

13. Everything he did for the Vote Leave campaign was designed to keep Farage out of power apparently.

 

14. If we don’t deliver Brexit the people will, effectively, revolt. I told him that, to use the terminology of the leave campaign, we would not be cowed “project fear”.

 

15. I expect he didn’t much like speaking to me. I guess this may align with his political view of (some) feminists being “obnoxious bigots” and that “men get a raw deal” (Politics Home article, 2011).

 

16. I am left shaking with anger & needing to vent by way of catharsis.

Sorry it just sounds like the standard remain arguments. Don't see anything wrong with any of his statements, and can understand how he can get frustrated if people go to see him purposely, but unprepared.
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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted

Lovely precis of Boris's career here...

 

A few months ago on the London Underground, a middle-aged stranger who found himself my neighbour demanded: “Excuse me asking, but you will know if anybody does — is Boris Johnson going to resign?” I pleaded ignorance, saying that I had not spoken to the foreign secretary for years. Crestfallen, he said: “But surely you were the editor of The Daily Telegraph who invented him!”

 

No, no, I insisted — he was getting me mixed up with Count Dracula.

 

It was true that I employed Boris through years during which he showed himself a dazzlingly entertaining journalist. But the joke went tragically wrong when Theresa May put him in the cabinet. My new friend’s face collapsed into dismay. “I know Boris makes mistakes,” he said, “but surely they’re good mistakes.”

 

That man does not merely like yesterday’s foreign secretary, I would surmise that he loves him. Along with hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of others, he sees in Johnson a blaze of colour amid the ranks of drabness occupying the front benches of the House of Commons.

 

The English have a weakness for clever buffoons, cards, turns. Boris’s admirers rejoice in his indiscretions. Here at last, they say, is somebody real; a man who tells it like it is; an overweight bundle of fun who makes them laugh. It is no contradiction that this vote of confidence is unsupported by most of those who know Boris well, starting with Michael Gove, or who have been rash enough to believe a word he says about whether it is Monday or Tuesday.

 

I first met the blond bombshell when he was presiding in white tie and tails at a debate as president of the Oxford Union, where his wit struck sparks off the chamber walls. Soon after recruiting him to the Telegraph in 1989 we sent him to be our correspondent in Brussels, where he made his reputation as a journalist. His reports on the extravagances and nonsenses of the EC, as it was, won headlines, and caused no end of embarrassment to the Tory government’s pro-Europeans.

 

Unkind rivals muttered that Boris’s dispatches enjoyed an uneasy relationship with the truth. His ascent suffered a check in 1990 when I received through the post a cassette of a conversation between him and his old Bullingdon Club chum Darius Guppy, a convicted fraudster. Guppy asked Boris to secure the address of a journalist against whom he had a grudge, with a view to having something unpleasant done to the man. Boris did not decline. My correspondent inquired what I, as his boss, was going to do. Summoned to London, Boris said that he had done nothing to meet Guppy’s request. Maybe, I said, but why had he not dismissed it out of hand? “Loyalty,” he said. “Loyalty to an old friend.” We sent him back to Brussels with a wigging.

 

The episode provided early examples of two enduring facets of his character: first, he will say absolutely anything to man, woman or child that will give them pleasure at that moment, heedless of whether he may be obliged to contradict it ten minutes later. Second, having registered his wild-card status as a brand, he exploits it to secure absolution for a procession of follies, gaffes, idiocies and scoundrelisms, such as would destroy the career of any other man or woman in journalism, never mind government. David Cameron was only one among many apologists to excuse some absurdity with a shrugged: “It’s just Boris being Boris”.

 

It is a common mistake to suppose Johnson a nice man. In reality he often behaves unpleasantly. I myself have received some ugly letters from Johnson, threatening consequences for writing about him in terms that he thought unflattering.

 

In 2008 Boris nonetheless sought my opinion about running for the London mayoralty. I said I thought he could win and might do the job well. He asked if I had any advice. Yes, I said: “Lock up your willy.” He proved a terrific showman for London, especially during the 2012 Olympics, but was notably less impressive on the tough bits — managing budgets and challenging the Tube unions. Nor did he prove willing to retire his willy. In 2013 a judge refused him a gagging order concerning an illegitimate child, observing that the public had a right to know about his “reckless” conduct.

 

His embrace of the Leave camp in 2016 was almost certainly decisive in securing the Brexit vote, though those who knew him best asserted that his decision was prompted by a cold calculation that the destruction of Cameron would open his path to the premiership.

 

Johnson’s glittering intelligence is not matched by self-knowledge. He sees his place in the nation’s history in Churchillian terms, whereas others — including most of the parliamentary Conservative Party — would cast him as Blackadder in a blond wig.

 

He is a man of remarkable gifts, flawed by an absence of conscience, principle or scruple. It has been a misfortune for Britain that through two years when diplomacy has been critically important we have been represented abroad by a jester.

 

It would be unwise to declare his career in government at an end until it is buried at a crossroads, but some of those who have known him best heaved a profound sigh of gratitude at his departure from the Foreign Office. He seems to deserve every possible success as a journalist and entertainer. Should he ever achieve his towering ambition to become prime minister, however, a signal would go forth to the world that Britain had abandoned any residual aspiration to be viewed as a serious nation.

 

https://www.maxhastings.com/2018/the-english-love-a-buffoon-but-the-boris-johnson-joke-went-tragically-wrong/

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shurlock

shurlock

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Posted
Sorry it just sounds like the standard remain arguments. Don't see anything wrong with any of his statements, and can understand how he can get frustrated if people go to see him purposely, but unprepared.

 

Raab is dim but he’s dogmatic, so I can see why he would appeal to nutters like you. His book with Liz Truss was appallingly researched.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
There are historical reasons why the 2009 Labour Party and current Conservative Party don't deal with the MCB, which is why Javid said what he did about them on the Marr show.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-shuns-muslim-council-over-link-with-hamas-1651323.html

 

Try and keep up

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/6998562/Government-ties-with-MCB-restored-but-not-for-deputy.html

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shurlock

shurlock

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Posted (edited)
Reinstated in the run up to the 2010 election for some reason that i can't quite put my finger on.

 

Christ on crutches. I thought such manoeuvrings are designed to be vote winners, not losers.

 

As usual, you’re all over the place. The change in stance had much more to do with the philosophy of John Denham and his views (right or wrong) on how to defeat extremism (I used to know him quite well) who wanted a fresh start in community relations and clean break with his predecessor, Hazel Blears in this regard.

Edited by shurlock
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saint1977

saint1977

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Posted
Sonia Purnell’s bio is also very good.

 

Yes it is, I've read that.

 

Speaking of Boris himself, looks like a brand new gift for his opponents within and beyond the Tory Party. Nice try by his office junior to make it just about Brexit but the reality of it is also a major trust issue, even with this appalling era of politicians and the proposed TV debates on the leadership could get very lively: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
Yes it is, I've read that.

 

Speaking of Boris himself, looks like a brand new gift for his opponents within and beyond the Tory Party. Nice try by his office junior to make it just about Brexit but the reality of it is also a major trust issue, even with this appalling era of politicians and the proposed TV debates on the leadership could get very lively: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48445430

 

District Judge Margot Coleman said: "I accept that the public offices held by Mr Johnson provide status, but with that status comes influence and authority.

 

"I am satisfied there is sufficient to establish prima facie evidence of an issue to be determined at trial of this aspect." Woot!

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badgerx16

badgerx16

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Posted
District Judge Margot Coleman said: "I accept that the public offices held by Mr Johnson provide status, but with that status comes influence and authority.

 

"I am satisfied there is sufficient to establish prima facie evidence of an issue to be determined at trial of this aspect." Woot!

But it's a report on the BBC, so Wes will be along soon to remind us all of the anti-Brexit bias that taints everything Auntie publishes.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

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Posted
Crazy remainer lawyer wasting peoples money.

 

The rebate is based on a percentage of the previous years amount.

But we have never had an annual commitment that resulted in a net £350 million per week going to the EU, so it was and still is a blatant lie.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
Crazy remainer lawyer wasting peoples money.

 

The rebate is based on a percentage of the previous years amount.

 

There is no rebate. We pay an agreed reduced amount which is a lot less thatn £350m per week. Still a lot of money but more than offset by the extra government revenues that arise from our membership of the Single Market.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted (edited)
We could well be seeing BoJo out of the race here...

 

Possible if you mean he’d have to pull out but I doubt it - perversely I reckon it might boost his support among Tory grassroots. Clearly MPs might think twice now and switch their support to Raab or another hard Brexiteer which would be hilarious.

Edited by shurlock
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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted
Possible but I doubt it - perversely I reckon it might boost his support among Tory grassroots.

 

I just can't see him getting through ANOTHER scandal - he is a liability, and a lot of Conservative members know that and see it - especially as conviction for this can carry a custodial sentence (and considering the severity of the result, likely could).

 

Be interesting to see if Steve Baker can take his votes from within the party.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
I just can't see him getting through ANOTHER scandal - he is a liability, and a lot of Conservative members know that and see it - especially as conviction for this can carry a custodial sentence (and considering the severity of the result, likely could).

 

Be interesting to see if Steve Baker can take his votes from within the party.

 

Agree.

 

As I say I don’t think it would force him to pull out but critically it might damage his chances with MPs. I doubt it will have any impact on the rank-and-file. It’s very unlikely that two hard Brexiteers make it to the second stage, so if he does go through, he’ll be the only candidate who the swivels can get behind and so will readily overlook his transgressions. Just look at the state of Les, LD and Nolan.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Yeah, that's ********. It isn't a rebate in any sense of the word. We don't hand over money and then get some given back. We only ever pay the reduced amount. A better term is 'discount' although 'abatement' or 'correction' are equally as good.

 

Politicians like the term 'rebate' because it makes it look as if we're getting something back, but we don't.

 

However it's referred to it is definitely not true that "We send the EU £350million a week"

 

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document.html?reference=EPRS_BRI(2016)577973

Edited by Whitey Grandad
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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
I'm keen on the result of another court case, that brought by Robin Tilbrook, claiming that as May's extension was illegal, we have already left the EU.

 

Les, my man on the inside, any more news on John Petley’s explosive revelations about how Chequers came about? They got you quite excited at the time :lol:

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted

Shurlock, mate, did I dream it, or did you say that Lord Adonis was a friend of yours? If you've touched base with him these past few days, I'd be interested to hear how Andy felt about his ignominious failure to get elected as an MEP. Regrettably for him, he has only managed to get himself elected as a local Councillor in his political life so far, every other position having dropped in his lap. He was on the Beeb constantly before the elections, but appears to have vanished from sight ever since. I do hope that he is alright.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
Shurlock, mate, did I dream it, or did you say that Lord Adonis was a friend of yours? If you've touched base with him these past few days, I'd be interested to hear how Andy felt about his ignominious failure to get elected as an MEP. Regrettably for him, he has only managed to get himself elected as a local Councillor in his political life so far, every other position having dropped in his lap. He was on the Beeb constantly before the elections, but appears to have vanished from sight ever since. I do hope that he is alright.

 

Thanks for asking Les. He’s a bit tired but is in surprisingly good spirits (he has very thick-skin unlike most Brexiteers). He stuck with Labour, so it’s hardly a personal indictment (his politics on Brexit are closer to those of LibDems). He’s confident that the result will push Corbyn to ditch the constructive ambiguity and by not doing a Campbell he has more chance to influence that policy shift. Think he did Radio 5 earlier today and has been on Sky, LBC etc since the elections. HTH

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

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Posted
We could well be seeing BoJo out of the race here...

 

Complete and utter pony.

 

One of 2 things will happen. The CPS will take over the case and most likely drop it. Or Boris’ expensive legal team will tie the case up in knots and a trial will be months , if not years away. Either way it’ll play straight into Boris’ hands. The thought that any Leaver will change their opinion about Boris because of this is quite frankly deluded.

 

The place to debate political claims is on the campaign trail, not in the courts. The problem is that because half wits on the Remain side are doing this, half wits on the Leave side will follow suit. Quickly followed by it seeping into non Brexit issues. Already George Galloway is tweeting about crowd funding a prosecution of Blair & Campbell over “lies” told during the run up to the Iraq war. If anyone doesn’t see the danger in this, there’s something seriously wrong with their judgment.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Batman

Batman

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Posted
Complete and utter pony.

 

One of 2 things will happen. The CPS will take over the case and most likely drop it. Or Boris’ expensive legal team will tie the case up in knots and a trial will be months , if not years away. Either way it’ll play straight into Boris’ hands. The thought that any Leaver will change their opinion about Boris because of this is quite frankly deluded.

 

The place to debate political claims is on the campaign trail, not in the courts. The problem is that because half wits on the Remain side are doing this, half wits on the Leave side will follow suit. Quickly followed by it seeping into non Brexit issues. Already George Galloway is tweeting about crowd funding a prosecution of Blair & Campbell over “lies” told during the run up to the Iraq war. If anyone doesn’t see the danger in this, there’s something seriously wrong with their judgment.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

if Boris is in legal trouble, this fella must be facing Life after these whoppers!

 

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