Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

[Wes Tender]

FTA can only be agreed after we leave, and if we leave with No Deal, a FTA will not be on the cards from the EU's side until we agree to the WA.

 

The WA is dead. The EU say they won't change it, and we won't accept it as it stands. Therefore we leave on WTO terms and if the EU want a FTA, which is in the interests of both us and them, then the ball is in their court. If they insist that we accept colony status under the surrender treaty in its current form, then it isn't going to happen.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The WA is dead. The EU say they won't change it, and we won't accept it as it stands. Therefore we leave on WTO terms and if the EU want a FTA, which is in the interests of both us and them, then the ball is in their court. If they insist that we accept colony status under the surrender treaty in its current form, then it isn't going to happen.

 

The EU won't agree to an FTA without the divorce payment, or if they do they'll make us pay more to get that access so they get their money back another way.

 

We need that FTA more than they do.

[shurlock]

The WA is dead. The EU say they won't change it, and we won't accept it as it stands. Therefore we leave on WTO terms and if the EU want a FTA, which is in the interests of both us and them, then the ball is in their court. If they insist that we accept colony status under the surrender treaty in its current form, then it isn't going to happen.

 

“Colony status”

 

Are you capable of a single independent thought or even turn of phrase Les? Or are you a brute, empty vessel for whatever brexitcentral or the erg tells you think.

 

I’m thinking of staging an intervention for you pal before you’re too far gone.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The WA is dead. The EU say they won't change it, and we won't accept it as it stands. Therefore we leave on WTO terms and if the EU want a FTA, which is in the interests of both us and them, then the ball is in their court. If they insist that we accept colony status under the surrender treaty in its current form, then it isn't going to happen.

 

As an aside, are you going to explain to me the difference between a FTA and the trade agreement we have within the transition period, or why Gove and Hunt cannot run together?

[Wes Tender]

In what way - why can this not happen? Explain it to me.

 

Because in the last poll today, the candidates are reduced to a final two. As Boris has a vote total higher than the other two combined, there is nothing they can do to prevent him being in the final two, unless those who voted for him didn't support him all along, for some reason. Even Javid's votes added in can't stop Boris being in the final two going before the membership. The members will vote overwhelmingly for Boris, so as leader of the Party, he gets to choose his cabinet. Goodbye to Hammond, Gauke, Clark and Rudd. No reason for Hunt and Saj not to remain in the cabinet, but Gove might be retained where he is, or ditched, unless he promises to behave himself and Stewart gone as a wet remoaner.

[Wes Tender]

As an aside, are you going to explain to me the difference between a FTA and the trade agreement we have within the transition period, or why Gove and Hunt cannot run together?

 

If you can't accept that the WA isn't a FTA, then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

[Wes Tender]

“Colony status”

 

Are you capable of a single independent thought or even turn of phrase Les? Or are you a brute, empty vessel for whatever brexitcentral or the erg tells you think.

 

I’m thinking of staging an intervention for you pal before you’re too far gone.

 

Who was it that coined that colony status position? Oh yes; it was some tosser underling in Verhofstadt's office.

[shurlock]

If you can't accept that the WA isn't a FTA, then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

 

Jeff’s larger point is correct. You and his little sidekick, LD, have repeatedly banged on about Tusk’s offer of a FTA which you’ve taken as evidence of May’s incompetence - that had the UK taken up that offer, it would have bypassed all the complexities and tradeoffs of the WA. Needless to say, you misunderstood Tusk and the context in which he made this point, that yes you can have a Canada-style FTA but only after the WA is agreed. No WA, no FTA, no escape route for you. This is Jeff’s point and frankly he pulled your pants down regarding it.

[Highfield Saint]

Therefore we leave on WTO terms

 

How is that going to happen?

[shurlock]

Who was it that coined that colony status position? Oh yes; it was some tosser underling in Verhofstadt's office.

 

When did he make the joke Les? It was a nod to all the rhetoric on this side of the channel which goes much further back. You’re not very good at this.

 

The larger, original point is you're like a malfunctioning bingo machine spewing out stock phrases, a jihadist who’s memorised scripture to heart but falls to pieces when asked to justify his beliefs or use critical thought. It runs through all your posts. Mix it up sometimes pal.

Edited 20 June, 2019 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Because in the last poll today, the candidates are reduced to a final two. As Boris has a vote total higher than the other two combined, there is nothing they can do to prevent him being in the final two, unless those who voted for him didn't support him all along, for some reason. Even Javid's votes added in can't stop Boris being in the final two going before the membership. The members will vote overwhelmingly for Boris, so as leader of the Party, he gets to choose his cabinet. Goodbye to Hammond, Gauke, Clark and Rudd. No reason for Hunt and Saj not to remain in the cabinet, but Gove might be retained where he is, or ditched, unless he promises to behave himself and Stewart gone as a wet remoaner.

 

I'm not saying they can stop Boris being in the final two, they would produce a final 2 before the vote happened by joining forces, those two v Boris.

 

I don't think YOU understand how this works.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If you can't accept that the WA isn't a FTA, then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

 

I'm not saying it is, I'm saying they're the same thing in everything but name. Explain to me why they're not.

[RedArmy]

 

Are you capable of a single independent thought or even turn of phrase Les?

 

a jihadist .

Nice bit of projection there.

[shurlock]

Nice bit of projection there.

 

Given Verbal and I have popularised it, I’d say it involved quite a bit of creativity. Wow someone’s actually responded to one of your posts pal

[RedArmy]

w00t

[Lord Duckhunter]

I'm not saying they can stop Boris being in the final two, they would produce a final 2 before the vote happened by joining forces, those two v Boris.

 

I don't think YOU understand how this works.

 

Surely you aren’t suggesting joint leaders, green style. I presume you mean that one of Gove or Hunt will run against Boris promising the other will be his deputy.

 

Which one do you suggest stands aside. Hunt can’t beat Boris with or without Gove. The only way you don’t get Boris is if Gove outshines him comprehensively during the hustings. He doesn’t need Hunt to do that, he’ll get the “Remain “ part of the membership with or without Hunt. Having Hunt tethered to him will only make it harder to win over Boris voters, not easier. Like it or not, the vast majority of members support Boris’ position, to win them over the last thing Gove needs is a bloody remainer holding him back

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited 20 June, 2019 by Lord Duckhunter

[Wes Tender]

Nice bit of projection there.

 

The remoaners are all a load of hypocrites if they accuse the leavers of using these pat phrases to describe Brexit. There isn't a broadcast by the media that doesn't have some remoaner speaking about cliff edges, crashing out of the EU, peoples votes, confirmatory votes, etc.

[shurlock]

The remoaners are all a load of hypocrites if they accuse the leavers of using these pat phrases to describe Brexit. There isn't a broadcast by the media that doesn't have some remoaner speaking about cliff edges, crashing out of the EU, peoples votes, confirmatory votes, etc.

 

I assume you can’t show that “some tosser underling in Verhofstadt's office” coined the colony status phrase? That one backfired a bit pal

[Wes Tender]

Surely you aren’t suggesting joint leaders, green style. I presume you mean that one of Gove or Hunt will run against Boris promising the other will be his deputy.

 

Which one do you suggest stands aside. Hunt can’t beat Boris with or without Gove. The only way you don’t get Boris is if Gove outshines him comprehensively during the hustings. He doesn’t need Hunt to do that, he’ll get the “Remain “ part of the membership with or without Hunt. Having Hunt tethered to him will only make it harder to win over Boris voters, not easier. Like it or not, the vast majority of members support Boris’ position, to win them over the last thing Gove needs is a bloody remainer holding him back

 

 

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Poor old Jeff doesn't have a clue. Even if Gove or Hunt, (whichever is the in the last two), outshines Boris in the hustings, the party membership has a substantial pro-Boris majority. The membership is also comprised of a huge Leave majority and also a majority in favour of leaving on WTO terms. Gove is still loathed by many for stabbing Boris in the back and giving us May, the reason for the current mess we're in. Hunt lacks charisma and isn't a leader.

[Wes Tender]

I assume you can’t show that “some tosser underling in Verhofstadt's office” coined the colony status phrase? That one backfired a bit pal

 

I had not heard it before then. Who do you think coined it first, and when?

[shurlock]

Poor old Jeff doesn't have a clue. Even if Gove or Hunt, (whichever is the in the last two), outshines Boris in the hustings, the party membership has a substantial pro-Boris majority. The membership is also comprised of a huge Leave majority and also a majority in favour of leaving on WTO terms. Gove is still loathed by many for stabbing Boris in the back and giving us May, the reason for the current mess we're in. Hunt lacks charisma and isn't a leader.

 

I can’t wait for Johnson to be elected too. Don’t let me down Les.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Surely you aren’t suggesting joint leaders, green style. I presume you mean that one of Gove or Hunt will run against Boris promising the other will be his deputy.

 

Which one do you suggest stands aside. Hunt can’t beat Boris with or without Gove. The only way you don’t get Boris is if Gove outshines him comprehensively during the hustings. He doesn’t need Hunt to do that, he’ll get the “Remain “ part of the membership with or without Hunt. Having Hunt tethered to him will only make it harder to win over Boris voters, not easier. Like it or not, the vast majority of members support Boris’ position, to win them over the last thing Gove needs is a bloody remainer holding him back

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No, of course I'm not, I'm suggesting Hunt will be a Deputy.

 

Gove will be out later if they don't join forces, so it is in Gove's interest to do this.

 

Gove and Hunt's Brexit strategy is the same, irregardless of remain/leave. You need to get out of this mindset and listen to the words.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Poor old Jeff doesn't have a clue. Even if Gove or Hunt, (whichever is the in the last two), outshines Boris in the hustings, the party membership has a substantial pro-Boris majority. The membership is also comprised of a huge Leave majority and also a majority in favour of leaving on WTO terms. Gove is still loathed by many for stabbing Boris in the back and giving us May, the reason for the current mess we're in. Hunt lacks charisma and isn't a leader.

 

Boris votes - 157

Remaining votes - 156

 

And I'm not saying they'll win - but it's the only way they'll get close.

 

Not sure what I'm not getting here.

[shurlock]

I had not heard it before then. Who do you think coined it first, and when?

 

They made the joke in November 2018 (37m30s):

 

https://youtu.be/uDHBaQF4vr0

 

It was already doing the rounds in Brexiter and wider UK circles in 2017:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42375059

 

Come better prepared next time Les.

[Wes Tender]

They made the joke in November 2018 (37m30s):

 

https://youtu.be/uDHBaQF4vr0

 

It was already doing the rounds in Brexiter and wider UK circles in 2017:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42375059

 

Come better prepared next time Les.

 

You claim that you and your alter ego Verbal popularised the phrase Brexit Jihadists. I can't be arsed to try and find your first usage of it, but Claire Perry used it in February 2017. There have been subsequent uses of it by Vince Cable, Yasmin Alibhai Brown and Ian Dunt. Did they all get if from you two on this football forum, or did you copy them? And you have the bare-faced temerity to pull me up on using phraseology that is common currency in Brexit circles.

[Wes Tender]

Boris votes - 157

Remaining votes - 156

 

And I'm not saying they'll win - but it's the only way they'll get close.

 

Not sure what I'm not getting here.

 

What does it matter whether they get close to Johnson's total vote? Surely you weren't really suggesting that one or the other deliberately drops out before the vote later this afternoon and somehow gifts their supporters' votes to the other? If so, it seems that you are under the illusion that most of the supporters of one, would be also prepared to support the other. That isn't the case; they have their own reasons for supporting one or the other and wouldn't necessarily support the other in preference to Boris.

 

If this isn't what you were getting at, then I refer you to my earlier reply, when I pointed out that if Boris is in the final two, the membership will not be voting for either of those two, barring a catastrophic event that makes Boris unelectable.

[shurlock]

You claim that you and your alter ego Verbal popularised the phrase Brexit Jihadists. I can't be arsed to try and find your first usage of it, but Claire Perry used it in February 2017. There have been subsequent uses of it by Vince Cable, Yasmin Alibhai Brown and Ian Dunt. Did they all get if from you two on this football forum, or did you copy them? And you have the bare-faced temerity to pull me up on using phraseology that is common currency in Brexit circles.

 

They are isolated instances and some came after our usage. Jihadi John is still a classic and am surprised the Remain establishment hasn’t called Redwood it yet. You see Al Tenderi, this place really is a hive of creativity. You (and they) might learn a thing or two pal. The bigger point, of course, is that the moniker is not really part of the Remain lexicon in terms of scale to qualify as a cliché, unlike the relentless Brexiter rhetoric of colonial status, vassal states, treason and treachery and WWII imagery.

 

I know you’re a bit sore and trying to distract because you got exposed (again) but you’ll live

Edited 20 June, 2019 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

What does it matter whether they get close to Johnson's total vote? Surely you weren't really suggesting that one or the other deliberately drops out before the vote later this afternoon and somehow gifts their supporters' votes to the other? If so, it seems that you are under the illusion that most of the supporters of one, would be also prepared to support the other. That isn't the case; they have their own reasons for supporting one or the other and wouldn't necessarily support the other in preference to Boris.

 

If this isn't what you were getting at, then I refer you to my earlier reply, when I pointed out that if Boris is in the final two, the membership will not be voting for either of those two, barring a catastrophic event that makes Boris unelectable.

 

Why would the membership not vote for them - Boris refused to guarantee leaving on the 31st October, he is actually a pinky Tory who is pro-remain (outside of his opportunism). Why would the membership trust him? Gove and Hunt as a duo are eminently more competent and trustable than Bonking Boris, Gove has always been leave - oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if either Hunt of Gove have something on Boris that could make him quit before the vote is ratified.

 

Not that it matters, if Boris looks like he's taking us out on WTO terms, he'll be out on his ear anyway and Corbyn will be in charge.

Edited 20 June, 2019 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Sheaf Saint]

barring a catastrophic event that makes Boris unelectable.

 

You mean like opening his mouth and speaking to the public?

 

Not that it will matter anyway. There are enough people in the Tory membership who are determined to vote for him no matter how blatantly unfit he is for office, because they think he is the one most likely to deliver their magical Brexit unicorns. And people call Corbyn's supporters 'cultists'!

 

Imagine that. Imagine being so f*cking stupid as to believe that Boris Johnson is the most trustworthy man in the Tory party to deliver on his undeliverable promises.

[shurlock]

You mean like opening his mouth and speaking to the public?

 

Not that it will matter anyway. There are enough people in the Tory membership who are determined to vote for him no matter how blatantly unfit he is for office, because they think he is the one most likely to deliver their magical Brexit unicorns. And people call Corbyn's supporters 'cultists'!

 

Imagine that. Imagine being so f*cking stupid as to believe that Boris Johnson is the most trustworthy man in the Tory party to deliver on his undeliverable promises.

 

Yep that’s why I want him to be elected. It’ll finally expose the bankruptcy of the Tory party and the hard Brexiter ideology. Of course the extremists are already preparing the excuses when he inevitably f**ks up -they have an advanced degree in avoiding responsibility. But maybe saner leave voters will see the light. I cannot wait for the impending bloodbath.

Edited 20 June, 2019 by shurlock

[Batman]

the fact Boris Johnson annoys a certain section of society, makes him being PM even funnier.

 

Been a bad few years for the chattering classes.

 

Scotland voted no

Tory's win the 2015 GE

Vote to leave won

Trump Becomes president

Tory's still in govt

Boris Johnson about to become PM

 

The opposition are the worst in modern history to allow much of the above to happen

[Unbelievable Jeff]

the fact Boris Johnson annoys a certain section of society, makes him being PM even funnier.

 

Been a bad few years for the chattering classes.

 

Scotland voted no

Tory's win the 2015 GE

Vote to leave won

Trump Becomes president

Tory's still in govt

Boris Johnson about to become PM

 

The opposition are the worst in modern history to allow much of the above to happen

 

Agree with the last sentence. Corbyn and his followers are enablers of this administration and of Brexit.

[sadoldgit]

To blame the opposition for the state we are currently in is Trumpism at its finest. How can you blame Labour for Cameron, May and now Johnson, Gove or Hunt? The Tories have been architects of their own downfall, and fall they will.

[Batman]

To blame the opposition for the state we are currently in is Trumpism at its finest. How can you blame Labour for Cameron, May and now Johnson, Gove or Hunt? The Tories have been architects of their own downfall, and fall they will.

 

because a semi-competent opposition would have swept up by now. Quite simple to grasp, I would have thought.

Look at the state of the government....which is viewed more favourable than the Corbyn-Abbott-Thornbury-Macdonald dream team...

[Sheaf Saint]

To blame the opposition for the state we are currently in is Trumpism at its finest. How can you blame Labour for Cameron, May and now Johnson, Gove or Hunt? The Tories have been architects of their own downfall, and fall they will.

 

I think the point being that if we had a better opposition, they would have buried the Tories long ago and not gifted them the power to put us in the position in which we now find ourselves.

[Lord Duckhunter]

No, of course I'm not, I'm suggesting Hunt will be a Deputy.

 

Gove will be out later if they don't join forces, so it is in Gove's interest to do this.

 

Complete pony.

 

Every single remainer or anti no deal member will vote for Gove anyway. The key to his success is winning over the no deal people or people who haven’t forgiven him for knifing Boris last time. How on earth does forming an alliance with Theresa Mk2 help that. An alliance with Raab, or even Baker might make sense, this does not. You form alliances to reach out into a part of the party you can’t win with. Not the part of the party whose support you already have.

 

 

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[Unbelievable Jeff]

Complete pony.

 

Every single remainer or anti no deal member will vote for Gove anyway. The key to his success is winning over the no deal people or people who haven’t forgiven him for knifing Boris last time. How on earth does forming an alliance with Theresa Mk2 help that. An alliance with Raab, or even Baker might make sense, this does not. You form alliances to reach out into a part of the party you can’t win with. Not the part of the party whose support you already have.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Wrong, it's about winning those that are unsure - in politics it's about winning those votes in reach, not the staunch opposite ends.

[whelk]

TBH, I'd quite welcome us sitting back and doing naff all for once.

 

Don’t you care about babies in peril?

[Whitey Grandad]

Shurlock, I'm trying to explain it in a way the Brexiteers will understand it. It's not technically an FTA, but we benefit from free trade for the transition period.

The WA is an indefinite extension except that legally we are out of the EU.

 

Brexiteers say "that's tantamount to remaining'

 

Remainers say 'in that case we might as well remain'

[Whitey Grandad]

If you can't accept that the WA isn't a FTA, then I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

The WA is much deeper and wider than a simple FTA.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Should have joined forces...

[whelk]

FFS Gove out

[Whitey Grandad]

FFS Gove out

What a carve up. What kind of democracy is this supposed to be?

[LGTL]

Complete pony.

 

Every single remainer or anti no deal member will vote for Gove anyway. The key to his success is winning over the no deal people or people who haven’t forgiven him for knifing Boris last time. How on earth does forming an alliance with Theresa Mk2 help that. An alliance with Raab, or even Baker might make sense, this does not. You form alliances to reach out into a part of the party you can’t win with. Not the part of the party whose support you already have.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Is it a prerequisite of yours to reply to every single post with the word pony?

 

Makes you look like a right tit, especially when you’re wrong.

[aintforever]

It’s been obvious that Boris will win since the first vote, is there really any point dragging it out for so long?

 

Over two months since the EU granted us an extension, telling us to “use the time wisely” and all the Tories have done is **** about with a pointless leadership contest.

[Wes Tender]

They are isolated instances and some came after our usage. Jihadi John is still a classic and am surprised the Remain establishment hasn’t called Redwood it yet. You see Al Tenderi, this place really is a hive of creativity. You (and they) might learn a thing or two pal. The bigger point, of course, is that the moniker is not really part of the Remain lexicon in terms of scale to qualify as a cliché, unlike the relentless Brexiter rhetoric of colonial status, vassal states, treason and treachery and WWII imagery.

 

I know you’re a bit sore and trying to distract because you got exposed (again) but you’ll live

 

I do enjoy watching you struggling to justify yourself when you've been caught out, mate,and as usual when this arises, you seek to belittle your opponents by petty insults.

 

Agreed that the Jihadist insult is lesser known than some of the Remoaner rhetoric when compared to the usual cliff edge, car crash, crashing out that is much more commonplace and which I see you have avoided denying or defending. But anyway, despite you insisting that some of that usage of Jihadists came after you used it, I presume that you originally got the idea from Claire Perry, rather than her getting it from you.

[Wes Tender]

Is it a prerequisite of yours to reply to every single post with the word pony?

 

Makes you look like a right tit, especially when you’re wrong.

 

He isn't wrong though. You are.

[Wes Tender]

Boris v Hunt. Great

[benjii]

Johnson only gathered 3 of Javid's votes..... really?!

 

Gove has been stitched up. Some might say you reap what you sow.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Don’t you care about babies in peril?

 

What, by indiscriminately bombing civilian areas? Not sure you understand what the current state of play is in Iran if you think going in will make that better...but we all know you like to see babies dead anyway.

Edited 20 June, 2019 by Unbelievable Jeff