Theresa May and the death of the Tory Party

[sadoldgit]

Given the unholy mess May has made over the very protracted Brexit negotiations, the huge divides that she has made worse within her own party, the platform she has given to Farage for his umpteenth return to the political stage etc. etc. I am surprised that this thread has not appeared before now. Throw in the bunch of useless muppets who are lining up for her job and the party looks in a worse mess than the Labour Party. For me, May has been the most inept PM in my lifetime. Throw in the damage that austerity has done to this country and the previous mess that Cameron made of the referendum etc. and it is little wonder why the younger generation look at us and say wtf have you lot done. Whatever you think of Corbyn or the Labour Party, they are not responsible for where the UK is right now, yet this forum seems more concerned with the pretenders to the throne rather than those in power. In a few weeks time it is entirely possible that the likes of Johnson or Gove could be PM. This place seems to be populated with Tories. Do you think that your party is really in a better shape to lead and unit our country than any other party? Whichever way Brexit goes it appears that the divides in your party will not be healed.

[Jonnyboy]

They are going to get such a hammering in the Euro elections.

The sad thing is the 0.1% have been laughing all the way to the offshore bank these last 9 years.

[buctootim]

Farage will clean up at the EU elections and fail again at a GE. He can’t work with other people and will be exposed again when the questions turn to policy more complicated than ‘just leave

[shurlock]

The Tories and arguably Brexit are f**ked if Johnson becomes PM -and it’s hard to see the Tories installing anything but a true Brexiter after the EU elections and May’s resignation (leaving aside the obvious fact that a true Brexiter wouldn’t have done any better in negotiations with the EU than May). Bring it on.

Edited 18 May, 2019 by shurlock

[Nolan]

The Tories and arguably Brexit are f**ked if Johnson becomes PM -and it’s hard to see the Tories installing anything but a true Brexiter after the EU elections and May’s resignation (leaving aside the obvious fact that a true Brexiter wouldn’t have done any better in negotiations with the EU than May). Bring it on.

Polls are showing that in current thinking, Johnson would be the only candidate to recover votes from the Brexit Party.

[Manuel]

I think it is a reaction to the radical left and identity politics that has helped put Trump in power and may help to keep the Tories in here.

[saint1977]

I think it is a reaction to the radical left and identity politics that has helped put Trump in power and may help to keep the Tories in here.

 

Trump is a reaction to the election of a BME president for two terms beforehand - they call themselves the Alt Right but Neo Nazis are what they are and what my grandfathers fought in WW2. Trump is a racist voted for by racists and climate change deniers. As for the UK, the key issues are a long running sense of public injustice after the financial crisis and austerity where they paid for the banking sector’s corruption and incompetence (enabled by Brown, Blair and Thatcher’s poor regulation) through the slashing of the public services they used. It has also knackered the Labour Party by facilitating the rise of the Trots from their 1980s graves and Momentum.

 

If you really want to understand this, read the OECD report on the sharp growth of inequalities between the middle class in the west and the top 0.1%.

[saint1977]

Polls are showing that in current thinking, Johnson would be the only candidate to recover votes from the Brexit Party.

 

Just merge with them and UKIP - then the sensible ex Tories can join Change UK and break FTTP. Beyond the Telegraph, where he embarrasses Charles Moore for his pocket money, and the increasingly very elderly and rabid stub of a Tory membership, Boris has at best patchy public support beyond the Home Counties despite being London Mayor and is despised north of Birmingham. Unlike Hunt or Javid, he has no experience in the hottest departmental kitchens and was a disaster as Foreign Secretary, barely stringing a sentence together. The man has no eye for detail - hope the civil service is ready to take the leadership controls of the country.

 

Ignore the economy, social care, education - none of those matter apparently according to a party’s membership almost entirely older than working age.

[Manuel]

If you really want to understand this, read the OECD report on the sharp growth of inequalities between the middle class in the west and the top 0.1%.

I'm not so concerned with inequalities if everyone is more prosperous. Isn't poverty decreasing both globally and in the West over the last 30 years?

 

Capitaism isn't a dirty word for me. Deal with corruption, yes. Ensure the people at the bottom of the ladder are continually made better off, yes. If the super-rich want to ride around in luxury yachts bought from the money they've made in the meantime, fine.

[scotty]

I'm struggling to see what more May could possibly have done with the hand she was dealt. For all the criticism fired at her, the only realistic alternative to her deal I've heard is to simply abandon the idea of leaving, which just isn't doable politically however strongly you might feel about the EU or our place inside or outside of it. I suppose a customs union could be a possible way out, but how that would get past the electorate is anybodys guess. To all those carping about how dreadful she's been, I'd just ask what else could she have done to square the unsquareable circle, because that's what it is.

[Jonnyboy]

I'm not so concerned with inequalities if everyone is more prosperous. Isn't poverty decreasing both globally and in the West over the last 30 years?

 

Capitaism isn't a dirty word for me. Deal with corruption, yes. Ensure the people at the bottom of the ladder are continually made better off, yes. If the super-rich want to ride around in luxury yachts bought from the money they've made in the meantime, fine.

 

I think you'll find poverty in the West has increased over the last 10 years, plus various other factors like the halting of life expectancy increases (probably decreasing amongst the poorest). The Tories facilitate this in the UK.

[Nolan]

I think you'll find poverty in the West has increased over the last 10 years, plus various other factors like the halting of life expectancy increases (probably decreasing amongst the poorest). The Tories facilitate this in the UK.

Poverty stats are not fit for propose.

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

[Nolan]

Just merge with them and UKIP - then the sensible ex Tories can join Change UK and break FTTP.

 

I applaud your absolute misreading of British politics.

[Shandy_Top_89]

Unless something changes they will be out of power at the next election.

 

Depending on what actually happens between now and the next general election, my (completely uneducated guess) is actually that the cons and labs will still be the largest parties thanks to FPTP, but they will both be an absolute mile off of a majority. Cons will be out by virtue of there being more coalition or supply options available to Labour.

 

Unfortunately I think SNP could become kingmakers and we could end up with another EU referendum (which I’m all for) and another Independence referendum (which I absolutely detest).

 

I think Lab / SNP / LD will be the only way to form a majority after the next election. Brex will do well, but they will just split the existing Con vote.

[sadoldgit]

I'm struggling to see what more May could possibly have done with the hand she was dealt. For all the criticism fired at her, the only realistic alternative to her deal I've heard is to simply abandon the idea of leaving, which just isn't doable politically however strongly you might feel about the EU or our place inside or outside of it. I suppose a customs union could be a possible way out, but how that would get past the electorate is anybodys guess. To all those carping about how dreadful she's been, I'd just ask what else could she have done to square the unsquareable circle, because that's what it is.

 

I agree that delivering Brexit within this Parliament was always going to be a tough ask. But wouldn’t have made more sense to form a cross party committee together from the start to try and work out what would get through Parliament and then spend the next three years trying to get the EU to agreed something that would work for us. Instead May has spent (wasted) three years putting together a deal which her own Party won’t support and keeps putting in front of Parliament despite the fact that it keeps getting defeated. Her mantra that this is the only deal is nonsense. There is always another option. The EU are quite rightly frustrated because they are trying to negotiate with someone who doesn’t know what the people she needs to get on side actually want. May’s belligerence and single minded approach from the start has led us to where we are now, in a shambles. Cameron let Farage bully us into a decision to leave when we had no plan how to leave. May’s incompetence has led us to a position where we will probably end up leaving with no deal, with all of the economic uncertainties and issues that will bring with it.

[aintforever]

I agree that delivering Brexit within this Parliament was always going to be a tough ask. But wouldn’t have made more sense to form a cross party committee together from the start to try and work out what would get through Parliament and then spend the next three years trying to get the EU to agreed something that would work for us. Instead May has spent (wasted) three years putting together a deal which her own Party won’t support and keeps putting in front of Parliament despite the fact that it keeps getting defeated. Her mantra that this is the only deal is nonsense. There is always another option. The EU are quite rightly frustrated because they are trying to negotiate with someone who doesn’t know what the people she needs to get on side actually want. May’s belligerence and single minded approach from the start has led us to where we are now, in a shambles. Cameron let Farage bully us into a decision to leave when we had no plan how to leave. May’s incompetence has led us to a position where we will probably end up leaving with no deal, with all of the economic uncertainties and issues that will bring with it.

 

And she wasted months calling a pointless general election which lost their majority, making them reliant on the DUP.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It’s a shame Change UK are such a bunch of incompetent political Pygmies. I was hoping they’d be a home for the soft arsed wets that have infiltrated the party, however they’re going down quicker than Katie Price and that’ll be career suicide. The Tories are doomed unless they ditch the Blairitte tribute act and start behaving like proper tories.

 

 

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[Jonnyboy]

Poverty stats are not fit for propose.

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/

 

You're right, people go to food banks for the lolz.

[Nolan]

You're right, people go to food banks for the lolz.

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-many-people-use-food-banks/

 

"It may be that demand has stayed the same but there are now more services available for people to use. We’re looking into the research that’s been done on this."

 

 

Glad we can educate you.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're right, people go to food banks for the lolz.

 

If you doubled everybody’s income, the poverty gap would be exactly the same. A bloke on 19k would be given 38k a year & still be “poor”. As the great lady said “you don’t make poor people richer by making rich people poorer”.

 

 

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Edited 20 May, 2019 by Lord Duckhunter

[Johnny Bognor]

Given the unholy mess May has made over the very protracted Brexit negotiations, the huge divides that she has made worse within her own party, the platform she has given to Farage for his umpteenth return to the political stage etc. etc. I am surprised that this thread has not appeared before now. Throw in the bunch of useless muppets who are lining up for her job and the party looks in a worse mess than the Labour Party. For me, May has been the most inept PM in my lifetime. Throw in the damage that austerity has done to this country and the previous mess that Cameron made of the referendum etc. and it is little wonder why the younger generation look at us and say wtf have you lot done. Whatever you think of Corbyn or the Labour Party, they are not responsible for where the UK is right now, yet this forum seems more concerned with the pretenders to the throne rather than those in power. In a few weeks time it is entirely possible that the likes of Johnson or Gove could be PM. This place seems to be populated with Tories. Do you think that your party is really in a better shape to lead and unit our country than any other party? Whichever way Brexit goes it appears that the divides in your party will not be healed.

 

 

Yes they are.

 

A weak opposition leads to weak inept government.

 

Some people vote Tory, not because they want them in power, but because the alternative is even worse.

 

British politics overall is failing... the tories of course are as much to blame as anyone else. But a strong credible opposition would either keep the tories on their toes or provide a decent alternative. So Corbyn et al are part of the problem and not a solution to the problem

[Nolan]

Yes they are.

 

A weak opposition leads to weak inept government.

 

Some people vote Tory, not because they want them in power, but because the alternative is even worse.

 

British politics overall is failing... the tories of course are as much to blame as anyone else. But a strong credible opposition would either keep the tories on their toes or provide a decent alternative. So Corbyn et al are part of the problem and not a solution to the problem

Competely agree with that.

[doddisalegend]

I think this is a pretty good summary. The conservatives are so busy pandering to their far right supporters they are cutting off their more center leaning voters same with Labour there are plenty of middle of the ground voters up for grabs that the two main parties seem desperate not to appeal to.

 

The Tories have forgotten their pro-EU voters. And they’ll pay for it

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/20/middle-class-angst-threat-tory-party-brexit-conservatism

 

 

 

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[Nolan]

I think this is a pretty good summary. The conservatives are so busy pandering to their far right supporters they are cutting off their more center leaning voters same with Labour there are plenty of middle of the ground voters up for grabs that the two main parties seem desperate not to appeal to.

 

The Tories have forgotten their pro-EU voters. And they’ll pay for it

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/20/middle-class-angst-threat-tory-party-brexit-conservatism

 

 

 

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They are not pandering to 'far right' conservatives.

 

The grass roots want the elected politicians to stick to and deliver on their manifesto pledges.

[Batman]

I think this is a pretty good summary. The conservatives are so busy pandering to their far right supporters they are cutting off their more center leaning voters same with Labour there are plenty of middle of the ground voters up for grabs that the two main parties seem desperate not to appeal to.

 

The Tories have forgotten their pro-EU voters. And they’ll pay for it

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/20/middle-class-angst-threat-tory-party-brexit-conservatism

 

 

 

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Far right?

 

LoL

[shurlock]

Yes they are.

 

A weak opposition leads to weak inept government.

 

Some people vote Tory, not because they want them in power, but because the alternative is even worse.

 

British politics overall is failing... the tories of course are as much to blame as anyone else. But a strong credible opposition would either keep the tories on their toes or provide a decent alternative. So Corbyn et al are part of the problem and not a solution to the problem

 

Somewhat disingenuous Balders. You mocked Labour before Corbyn which suggests whoever was leader would not provide credible opposition in your eyes. Suggests your problem is with labour rather than the quality of the leader or opposition. Nice try though pal.

Edited 20 May, 2019 by shurlock

[Lord Duckhunter]

Far right?

 

LoL

 

Laughable isn’t it. The Tory party has been hijacked by pinkos for ****ing years. Boris is borderline pinko but he’s been redefined as some sort of Right winger solely because he voted leave. Gove is the same. The cabinet is full of them, socially and economically pink and sopping wet through,and that includes some that voted Leave.

 

 

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[shurlock]

Laughable isn’t it. The Tory party has been hijacked by pinkos for ****ing years. Boris is borderline pinko but he’s been redefined as some sort of Right winger solely because he voted leave. Gove is the same. The cabinet is full of them, socially and economically pink and sopping wet through and that includes some that voted Leave.

 

 

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Good lad.

[Whitey Grandad]

They are not pandering to 'far right' conservatives.

 

The grass roots want the elected politicians to stick to and deliver on their manifesto pledges.

 

A manifesto is a wishlist and nothing more than that.

[doddisalegend]

They are not pandering to 'far right' conservatives.

 

The grass roots want the elected politicians to stick to and deliver on their manifesto pledges.

The point is not all conservative voters are leavers plenty voted remain but are happily being ignored in favour of the aging little Englanders and their jingoistic crap. I voted conservative all my adult life now they can **** right off and I'm not the only one who feels like that. Its one of the reasons they won't win the next general election.

 

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[Wes Tender]

Roll on Thursday and the almighty kicking that will be delivered to both of the main parties by The Brexit Party for refusing to deliver Brexit by the end of March. Roll on too the removal van outside Number 10 when the worst PM in British political history finally departs. It will take some considerable time for the Conservative Party to repair the damage that she has caused it.

[shurlock]

Roll on Thursday and the almighty kicking that will be delivered to both of the main parties by The Brexit Party for refusing to deliver Brexit by the end of March. Roll on too the removal van outside Number 10 when the worst PM in British political history finally departs. It will take some considerable time for the Conservative Party to repair the damage that she has caused it.

 

Hello Les. Have we left yet

[Batman]

The point is not all conservative voters are leavers plenty voted remain but are happily being ignored in favour of the aging little Englanders and their jingoistic crap. I voted conservative all my adult life now they can **** right off and I'm not the only one who feels like that. Its one of the reasons they won't win the next general election.

 

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Someone's rattled

[Whitey Grandad]

The point is not all conservative voters are leavers plenty voted remain but are happily being ignored in favour of the aging little Englanders and their jingoistic crap. I voted conservative all my adult life now they can **** right off and I'm not the only one who feels like that. Its one of the reasons they won't win the next general election.

 

Me too. I gave the Tory scum my support all my life and they've dumped me in the sh!t. I trusted them as the party of business. Now they can go whistle.

 

[Wes Tender]

Me too. I gave the Tory scum my support all my life and they've dumped me in the sh!t. I trusted them as the party of business. Now they can go whistle.

 

 

Me too. I gave them my support all my life and they let me down badly. I'm now one of the 100,000 plus who have paid their £25 to The Brexit Party. I'm a member of the Conservative Party until the end of June, so can vote in the leadership elections before then. If for some reason it is later than that, I will just have to renew so that I can vote for a pure Brexiteer successor, not one of those who voted Remain and then decided to change their mind.

[whelk]

Man arrested in Newcastle after throwing milkshake at Nigel Farage http://news.sky.com/story/man-arrested-in-newcastle-after-throwing-milkshake-at-nigel-farage-11724800

[shurlock]

Me too. I gave them my support all my life and they let me down badly. I'm now one of the 100,000 plus who have paid their £25 to The Brexit Party. I'm a member of the Conservative Party until the end of June, so can vote in the leadership elections before then. If for some reason it is later than that, I will just have to renew so that I can vote for a pure Brexiteer successor, not one of those who voted Remain and then decided to change their mind.

 

I suspect the Tory scum Whitey has in mind are the same scum pandering to swivels like you Les.

[Johnny Bognor]

Somewhat disingenuous Balders. You mocked Labour before Corbyn which suggests whoever was leader would not provide credible opposition in your eyes. Suggests your problem is with labour rather than the quality of the leader or opposition. Nice try though pal.

 

Ed Milliband was a joke. Hard not to mock him/them. David Milliband however ... would have been a different prospect. We would be under Labour now if that had happened

[Wes Tender]

I suspect the Tory scum Whitey has in mind are the same scum pandering to swivels like you Les.

 

Suck it up, snowflake.

[shurlock]

Ed Milliband was a joke. Hard not to mock him/them. David Milliband however ... would have been a different prospect. We would be under Labour now if that had happened

 

Never mind that much less separates Ed and David Miliband politically than, say, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn or that many politicians who served in Ed Miliband’s shadow cabinet, leading the opposition’s response on the economy, crime, health etc would have likely filled the same or similar roles in a David Miliband shadow cabinet.

Edited 20 May, 2019 by shurlock

[shurlock]

Suck it up, snowflake.

 

 

Les mindlessly spouting clichés that bear no connection or relevance to what’s been said does you no favours pal.

[edprice1984]

The problem for the Conservative Party is the membership - it is almost entirely over 60 years old and dying. The average age is 72! I attended a local party meeting last year and I was the youngest person (at 33) by 15 years. I expected the majority to be old and white, but it was actually shocking. The really scary thing was when I spoke to other members about policy and the party. It was like going back in time 40 or 50 years in terms of attitudes. One woman actually suggested that they should bring back hanging for gay people!

 

Now of course this doesn't necessarily represent the whole party, but I am confident that a significant proportion of it is similar.

 

Theresa May is the worst Prime Minister since Anthony Eden, and he was doped up and mentally shot by the time he took office. I genuinely don't see the Conservative Party surviving past the next general election in its current form. A fundamental split has occurred and unless Nigel snuffs it in the next year, there is no way back. The only saving grace currently is that the Brexit Party has no policies - it is simply a protest vote. If the Labour party had a 'Blairite' pro-European in charge they would be surging in the polls.

[Whitey Grandad]

Me too. I gave them my support all my life and they let me down badly. I'm now one of the 100,000 plus who have paid their £25 to The Brexit Party. I'm a member of the Conservative Party until the end of June, so can vote in the leadership elections before then. If for some reason it is later than that, I will just have to renew so that I can vote for a pure Brexiteer successor, not one of those who voted Remain and then decided to change their mind.

 

If you have given money to the Brexit Party you do realise that it is going straight into Fagage's offshore bank accounts?* 'The Brexit Party' is a limited company with a self-elected leader. Not a trace of democracy to be found anywhere.

 

I suspect the Tory scum Whitey has in mind are the same scum pandering to swivels like you Les.

 

You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment

 

 

*allegedly. Other untraceable deposits are available.

[Lord Duckhunter]

One woman actually suggested that they should bring back hanging for gay people!

 

 

That’s mainstream opinion in Dewsbury.

 

 

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[Lord Duckhunter]

If you have given money to the Brexit Party you do realise that it is going straight into Fagage's offshore bank accounts?* 'The Brexit Party' is a limited company with a self-elected leader. Not a trace of democracy to be found anywhere.

 

 

*allegedly. Other untraceable deposits are available.

 

 

 

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[Nolan]

The problem for the Conservative Party is the membership - it is almost entirely over 60 years old and dying. The average age is 72!

 

Were you aware the word 'gullible' had been removed from the dictionary?

 

https://fullfact.org/news/how-old-average-conservative-party-member/

[Highfield Saint]

Never mind that much less separates Ed and David Miliband politically than, say, Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn or that many politicians who served in Ed Miliband’s shadow cabinet, leading the opposition’s response on the economy, crime, health etc would have likely filled the same or similar roles in a David Miliband shadow cabinet.

 

David Miliband was more credible than Ed.

 

The leader of the party is a significant element in most people's voting decision and most people don't know much if anything about their local MP.

 

We will soon faced with our political leader and fundamental strategies being led by someone elected by 120,000 conservative members. Again.

 

That just cant be right...

[Lord Duckhunter]

The point is not all conservative voters are leavers plenty voted remain but are happily being ignored in favour of the aging little Englanders and their jingoistic crap. I voted conservative all my adult life now they can **** right off and I'm not the only one who feels like that. Its one of the reasons they won't win the next general election.

 

 

Oh for the days when Johnny Major, Hestletine, Patten & Clarke we’re in Government. Those were the halcyon days, when the Europhile pinkos were in charge. Of course, after a full term of those wet planks, a record defeat and 13 years of opposition followed. Cameron, another sopping wet pinko, couldn’t even win a majority against Gordon ****ing Brown, and only just scraped home (solely because of the referendum promise) against Ed Milliband. A proper Tory with proper Tory policies will win a landslide against Jezza, no bother.

 

 

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[shurlock]

David Miliband was more credible than Ed.

 

The leader of the party is a significant element in most people's voting decision and most people don't know much if anything about their local MP.

 

We will soon faced with our political leader and fundamental strategies being led by someone elected by 120,000 conservative members. Again.

 

That just cant be right...

 

There’s a difference between the electability of a leader and opposition on the one hand and their ability to provide effective opposition, to master policy detail and hold the government to account for its business on the other. Indeed the two skills or qualities don’t necessarily go hand in hand.

 

David Miliband was clearly more electable than Ed Miliband but that doesn’t mean Ed Miliband was incapable of providing effective opposition. Which goes back to my initial point: it’s worth treating “weak opposition” claims with a bit of scepticism, especially from those who don’t side politically with the opposition. Often it’s no more than virtue signalling, a ruse to appear more reasonable they really are.

[Wes Tender]

If you have given money to the Brexit Party you do realise that it is going straight into Fagage's offshore bank accounts?* 'The Brexit Party' is a limited company with a self-elected leader. Not a trace of democracy to be found anywhere.

 

*allegedly. Other untraceable deposits are available.

 

It's my money, and I'll spend it how I like. Judging by how the two main parties are crapping themselves with worry about how their candidates in the Euro elections will get a hammering on Thursday, I consider it money well spent for entertainment value alone. They're doing their best to discredit Farage, in exactly the same way that they ran project fear. The trouble is, only the gullible believe it, and that isn't the Leave voters. Sensibly, they ignore all that sort of rubbish, much of it having been discredited before and after the referendum.

 

I must say, I enjoyed watching Sourbry on the Politics programme, claiming that the Change Party (or what they call themselves today) had 100,000 members. And even Hezza has abandoned the Tories for the Lib Dumbs. Will he lose the Party whip in the Lords? Or is it only Leavers like Widdecombe who risk that?