Racism In Football 2019

[shurlock]

Barney Ronay, writing ahead of the game, always good value.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/oct/14/england-racism-euro-qualifiers-barney-ronay

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'd ban them from qualifying for the next tournament or make them play behind closed doors until further notice.

 

This. 4 year International ban for teams.

 

If UEFA want fans and teams to take it seriously and properly vett who can buy tickets and attend games, then you have to have proper punishments.

[hypochondriac]

Barney Ronay, writing ahead of the game, always good value.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/oct/14/england-racism-euro-qualifiers-barney-ronay

Bizarre article. How is ten German bomber chants in any way comparable to what we just saw there from Bulgaria?

 

Some England fans act like idiots abroad sure but let's not try and equate that with those shocking scenes.

[Batman]

Bizarre article. How is ten German bomber chants in any way comparable to what we just saw there from Bulgaria?

 

Some England fans act like idiots abroad sure but let's not try and equate that with those shocking scenes.

 

Barry Glendenning also going to town on how dare England fans take the moral high ground on this....

[hypochondriac]

Barry Glendenning also going to town on how dare England fans take the moral high ground on this....

Beyond bizarre to say that in effect you can't condemn literal nazi salutes and monkey chants in the stadium because a minority of England fans have a **** up and engage in antisocial behaviour before games or sing ten German bombers.

[Batman]

Beyond bizarre to say that in effect you can't condemn literal nazi salutes and monkey chants in the stadium because a minority of England fans have a **** up and engage in antisocial behaviour before games or sing ten German bombers.

 

Glendenning has a bit of hatred for England fans (and this country). One of those who makes money off the back of it though

[sadoldgit]

Considering the racist chants continued in the second half I think the team should have walked off. Just because it was less noticeable doesn’t make it ok if it wasn’t ok in the first half. They were trying to make out that it was some massive step forward because the game was stopped twice and they took notice. Great. It didn’t stop the moronic chanting though.

[Lighthouse]

Lots of racist chanting, nazi salutes and signs. Pretty disgusting tbh I hope uefa takes proper action.

 

Don't be silly. They're far too busy handing out punishments to players who compare their mate to a cartoon character.

 

We could try enlarging those 'no to racism' badges on the sleeves from 6cm to 7cm, although that would be an extreme measure.

[whelk]

Beyond bizarre to say that in effect you can't condemn literal nazi salutes and monkey chants in the stadium because a minority of England fans have a **** up and engage in antisocial behaviour before games or sing ten German bombers.

 

I don’t go away with England any more but definitely used to be a magnet for far right scum. Not far off the Bulgarians tonight.

[wadesmith]

That was an interesting night, and I think hopefully a breakthrough moment that may slowly (probably very slowly) start persuading UEFA to stop sitting on their hands. One thing really struck me though. The England players could hear racist taunts in the first half and the game was stopped twice. The highlights after the game also clearly show that the players were aware of racism from the crowd in the second half, but it appears they didn't make anyone aware of it this time...we were four nil up at the time. Would the players have made the ref aware of it in the second half if we were two-nil down? The whole things left me a little bit confused to be honest. We seem to have set a bit of a benchmark now by not walking off. How bad does the racism have to get for us to now walk off? How do you quantify it? On the basis that the racism clearly continued throughout the second half...but we didn't walk, would now suggest we will never walk off? Whats the trigger point? Anyway a positive step forward..but i'm slightly conflicted.

[Saint_clark]

That was an interesting night, and I think hopefully a breakthrough moment that may slowly (probably very slowly) start persuading UEFA to stop sitting on their hands. One thing really struck me though. The England players could hear racist taunts in the first half and the game was stopped twice. The highlights after the game also clearly show that the players were aware of racism from the crowd in the second half, but it appears they didn't make anyone aware of it this time...we were four nil up at the time. Would the players have made the ref aware of it in the second half if we were two-nil down? The whole things left me a little bit confused to be honest. We seem to have set a bit of a benchmark now by not walking off. How bad does the racism have to get for us to now walk off? How do you quantify it? On the basis that the racism clearly continued throughout the second half...but we didn't walk, would now suggest we will never walk off? Whats the trigger point? Anyway a positive step forward..but i'm slightly conflicted.

 

I thought the same, but i'm not sure whether it was a case of not wanting to give up the score line (would an abandoned game result in a replay or an automatic 3-0 win to England?), or if they decided at halftime that with the way the game was going they wanted to play on and destroy Bulgaria to humiliate the people in the stadium.

[wadesmith]

I thought the same, but i'm not sure whether it was a case of not wanting to give up the score line (would an abandoned game result in a replay or an automatic 3-0 win to England?), or if they decided at halftime that with the way the game was going they wanted to play on and destroy Bulgaria to humiliate the people in the stadium.

 

I'm glad it wasn't just me, because it left me feeling a bit uncomfortable. I'm reading things like 'Jesse owens looking down at England tonight and smiling' & i'm thinking 'mmmm, not quite sure about that' You could see that Sterling was clearly aware he was coping stick in the second half, as they showed him glaring at the crowd at one point. I guess my stance is, I completely applaud what England did...but it felt like a bit of a fudge in the end It's a tricky one.

[skintsaint]

Their manager is being a nob about it all also denying he didn't hear or see anything wrong, and their captain went to the stands to apologise for their poor performance, not about the chants etc.

[sadoldgit]

I don’t go away with England any more but definitely used to be a magnet for far right scum. Not far off the Bulgarians tonight.

 

Southgate was right to say that we can’t take the moral high ground as we too still have a problem. We clearly have our own issues and do need to get our own house in order. UEFA needs to take much tougher action, not only against the right wing Ultras we saw last night, but also against the mindless idiots from England who think that it is perfectly ok to go abroad a trash foreign cities. Many of us can remember a time when our clubs were banned from playing in Europe. Perhaps it is time to bring back draconian measures again. As ever, it is a moronic minority spoiling it for others, but we also have an element of morons here who behave in the same way and can’t just pretend it is a problem elsewhere. What sanctions we expect against the Bulgarians, we should expect the same treatment when our supporters behave badly.

[hypochondriac]

I don’t go away with England any more but definitely used to be a magnet for far right scum. Not far off the Bulgarians tonight.

If I saw the same display by England fans at a game that I saw from the Bulgarians yesterday then I'd be calling for the exact same thing. We don't see that though, because it doesn't happen. Certainly not on anywhere near the same scale at all.

[hypochondriac]

Southgate was right to say that we can’t take the moral high ground as we too still have a problem. We clearly have our own issues and do need to get our own house in order. UEFA needs to take much tougher action, not only against the right wing Ultras we saw last night, but also against the mindless idiots from England who think that it is perfectly ok to go abroad a trash foreign cities. Many of us can remember a time when our clubs were banned from playing in Europe. Perhaps it is time to bring back draconian measures again. As ever, it is a moronic minority spoiling it for others, but we also have an element of morons here who behave in the same way and can’t just pretend it is a problem elsewhere. What sanctions we expect against the Bulgarians, we should expect the same treatment when our supporters behave badly.

And just like that, weirdos like soggy try and push their "it's all the same" agenda. We don't have a racism problem in British football that is significantly higher than any other section of society and this doesn't manifest itself beyond isolated incidents which are normally dealt with by dishing out lifetime bans when proven. It doesn't matter how many times you try and equate the scenes we saw in Bulgaria with the behaviour of modern day England fans, they simply aren't equivalent. When we see maybe hundreds of black clad England fans in a stadium making monkey noises and doing nazi salutes then I'll concede that's the case but not before.

 

It's very obvious that a culture of racism still exists in Eastern Europe, thankfully that isn't anywhere near the same scale in the UK. As someone mentioned earlier their governments cracking down on this sort of behaviour in wider society would be a start.

Edited 15 October, 2019 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

Maybe not on the same scale but it still happens here. As someone said yesterday, 1 person making monkey noises is racist abuse just as it is if 100 people do it. 2 of the top people in English football yesterday stated that we also have a problem here. They wouldn’t of said that if we didn’t have a problem still.

[hypochondriac]

Maybe not on the same scale but it still happens here. As someone said yesterday, 1 person making monkey noises is racist abuse just as it is if 100 people do it. 2 of the top people in English football yesterday stated that we also have a problem here. They wouldn’t of said that if we didn’t have a problem still.

Well then that's an impossible demand. Its like trying to eliminate all racism from society. Unfortunately there are always going to be a handful of mindless racists in any cross section of society. All we can do in that circumstance is identify the trouble makers and issue them with long bans. Of course hundreds of people making monkey noises is a lot worse than one loner doing it because it points to a wider problem beyond just the handful that we see in the UK.

[OldNick]

It was pathetic and took me back to the 1970's. Those people wont be deterred. It will take a decade or so for that part of the world to learn.

What it did show that Mings is a decent player and whilst they were poor he looked very comfortable. A bad oversight by Eddie Howe letting him go perhaps

[sadoldgit]

100 people making monkey noises or throwing bananas on the pitch is racism. 1 person doing the same is racism. Racism is not acceptable and is not more acceptable if fewer people are being racists. What the Bulgarians did last not was not defensible. Draping the cross of St George across your shoulders and trashing foreign bars and cafes is also not defensible. A black lady just called TalkSport and spoke about how bad racism still is here. The focus is currently on the Bulgarians but we need to understand that we have the same element of moronic nationalists in our country who also need dealing with. 100 or 1, they have to understand that their behaviour is not acceptable. By saying that you will always have that element in society makes it acceptable. Anyone who thinks it is ok to discriminate on the grounds of race, creed or religion needs to be called on their behaviour. They need to understand that they are the problem rather than the people they are directing their hatred to.

[whelk]

Maybe not on the same scale but it still happens here. As someone said yesterday, 1 person making monkey noises is racist abuse just as it is if 100 people do it. 2 of the top people in English football yesterday stated that we also have a problem here. They wouldn’t of said that if we didn’t have a problem still.

 

But that is nonsense one is not the same as hundred. I have been at Saints aways in 80s when supporters making monkey chants. Doubt most of those cnts are now live and let live iberals but they have been shamed or otherwise into not being acceptable.

 

How do you stamp out racism SOG?

 

I am little bit baffled why this eastern European racism seems to have taken many by surprise when they are clearly open about it an not shamed.

[Lighthouse]

But that is nonsense one is not the same as hundred. I have been at Saints aways in 80s when supporters making monkey chants. Doubt most of those cnts are now live and let live iberals but they have been shamed or otherwise into not being acceptable.

 

How do you stamp out racism SOG?

 

I am little bit baffled why this eastern European racism seems to have taken many by surprise when they are clearly open about it an not shamed.

 

That's the clear difference for me and why they deserve punishment and we don't. It's considered acceptable there and their FA is complicit by way of their inactivity. This kind of thing is neither new nor difficult to deal with. In Britain we've managed to identify most of the trouble makers and they've been given bans. The odd nutter still slips through but when you've got hoards of facists, faces covered, throwing Nazi salutes as they wander into the stadium, it all points to a complete unwillingness by the authorities to try and stop them.

 

Russia managed it, when they actually wanted to. Putin didn't want the humiliation of being internationally disgraced at his own World Cup and surprise surprise, suddenly all their trouble makers were nowhere to be seen for a month.

[hypochondriac]

But that is nonsense one is not the same as hundred. I have been at Saints aways in 80s when supporters making monkey chants. Doubt most of those cnts are now live and let live iberals but they have been shamed or otherwise into not being acceptable.

 

How do you stamp out racism SOG?

 

I am little bit baffled why this eastern European racism seems to have taken many by surprise when they are clearly open about it an not shamed.

Hold on so according to soggy now simply acknowledging that racism is not something you will ever be able to eliminate in its entirety is something you cannot say because it makes racism acceptable? You couldn't make it up!

 

He's desperate, absolutely desperate to pretend there's some huge racism problem at football grounds accross the UK that goes beyond a few isolated incidents of loners. He's even using racist Eastern Europeans to try back his bizarre arguments. Certifiably insane.

[Wurzel]

100 people making monkey noises or throwing bananas on the pitch is racism. 1 person doing the same is racism. Racism is not acceptable and is not more acceptable if fewer people are being racists. What the Bulgarians did last not was not defensible. Draping the cross of St George across your shoulders and trashing foreign bars and cafes is also not defensible. A black lady just called TalkSport and spoke about how bad racism still is here. The focus is currently on the Bulgarians but we need to understand that we have the same element of moronic nationalists in our country who also need dealing with. 100 or 1, they have to understand that their behaviour is not acceptable. By saying that you will always have that element in society makes it acceptable. Anyone who thinks it is ok to discriminate on the grounds of race, creed or religion needs to be called on their behaviour. They need to understand that they are the problem rather than the people they are directing their hatred to.

 

You are comparing racism with nationalism. Totally different things.

 

 

Of course racism is racism whether its by 1 person or 100. But the issue here is whether a club and/or country can be held accountable for it.

 

If one sole knobhead quickly stands up in the middle of Block 13 of SMS and hurls racist abuse before quickly sitting down again he will (assuming he can be located) be dealt with by the stewards and likely never seen again. The club can hardly be held accountable for his actions.

 

Conversely if a group of (say) 100 congregated together and systematically abuse players (and/or fans) in a racist nature then there is no way the club/authorities/stadium management could claim to be unaware of it happening. Any lack of attempt to stop it happening could only be seen as condoning it and for that then they should be held accountable.

 

Of course racism will never be wiped out 100% (except for a Spanish Inquisition style witch hunt where all suspects are "destroyed") but that doesn't make it acceptable. God, we've not even convinced everyone that the earth is not flat yet. All we can hope for is that more and more people stand up to it and shame the perpetrators into realising they hold socially unacceptable views nowadays and it will become so rare as to be almost unheard of.

 

There is one thing I am uncomfortable with from a sporting aspect and that is teams taking advantage of it. It's already been queried whether England would have been so keen to stay on if they were losing. Could a black player being booed every touch because he had committed a bad foul earlier in the match or dived to get a penalty start complaining to the ref? Last night was a great first step in eradicating it from our game , but it needs to seen to be dealt with fairly and correctly every single time.

[sadoldgit]

But that is nonsense one is not the same as hundred. I have been at Saints aways in 80s when supporters making monkey chants. Doubt most of those cnts are now live and let live iberals but they have been shamed or otherwise into not being acceptable.

 

How do you stamp out racism SOG?

 

I am little bit baffled why this eastern European racism seems to have taken many by surprise when they are clearly open about it an not shamed.

 

A hundred is just a multiple of the same basic issue. How do you stamp it out? I wish I had the answer, but it shouldn’t be about numbers. We heard yesterday that the chants weren’t as bad in the second half so we played on. They were the same chants. If they were not acceptable in the first half they were not acceptable in the second half. If every time someone is called on their behaviour, whether it be one person or one hundred people, eventually the message might sink in.

 

Yes, racism and nationalism are different, but they both have their roots in tribalism.

[sadoldgit]

Someone made a valid point on the radio this morning. Given all of the pre publicity about possible crowd issues, where were all the police and stewards? It also looked like the Ultras left of their own accord rather than being turfed out, almost as if it was orchestrated.

[hypochondriac]

It's ridiculous to pretend that a small handful of one or two shouting abuse at a black player in the UK- and subsequently handed long bans- is the same issue as orchestrated racist chanting, signals and drawings by hundreds for an entire match abroad. It suits your narrative to say its the same thing but all right minded people know it's a separate issue. Both should be dealt with but they aren't the same thing.

[sadoldgit]

If you bothered to listen to black players in this country, the racism aimed at them isn’t just coming from one or two people. If it was do you really think that Southgate and the head of our FA would both make the point on national TV that we also still have a problem in this country. I think that right minded people can see that it is exactly the same thing and I am surprised that you cannot see that too.

[hypochondriac]

If you bothered to listen to black players in this country, the racism aimed at them isn’t just coming from one or two people. If it was do you really think that Southgate and the head of our FA would both make the point on national TV that we also still have a problem in this country. I think that right minded people can see that it is exactly the same thing and I am surprised that you cannot see that too.

Where are the big gangs of fans shouting racist abuse from the stands in the Prem? Find the evidence. Find the same types of things happening in Bulgaria on the same scale in any professional UK football ground in the last decade. You won't find it because it doesn't exist. It won't stop moral crusaders like yourself from harping on about it but you have no evidence for your claims.

 

You actually do a lot more harm than good because you inflate the issue rather than having a sensible conversation about the actual scale of the problem and ideas to solve it. But then everything in Britain is laced with racism, sexism, homophobia etc etc in your world isn't it.

[Manuel]

I wonder if it might have handled it differently.

 

Halting the match makes the event about the racism and not about the football, at least temporarily. From the viewers perspective, wouldn't it have been better to ignore it while the match is on and deal with it harshly afterwards....make arrests, media coverage etc? If you can make arrests and get people out of the stands, great, but keep the camera's off them. Don't give them coverage. Ignore them in the same way we do with streakers. By all means talk about it afterwards.

 

It's not that I'm upset because the game was interrupted, it's just that these idiots are given time and coverage they don't deserve.

[sadoldgit]

It looks like the English FA are being charged with the disruption of the Bulgarian national anthem by the fans. Wow.

[Lighthouse]

I wonder if it might have handled it differently.

 

Halting the match makes the event about the racism and not about the football, at least temporarily. From the viewers perspective, wouldn't it have been better to ignore it while the match is on and deal with it harshly afterwards....make arrests, media coverage etc? If you can make arrests and get people out of the stands, great, but keep the camera's off them. Don't give them coverage. Ignore them in the same way we do with streakers. By all means talk about it afterwards.

 

It's not that I'm upset because the game was interrupted, it's just that these idiots are given time and coverage they don't deserve.

 

The problem is that's easier said than done. One or two idiots and I'd agree, you'd have to have thick enough skin to ignore them and report it to the Police afterwards. This level of widespread racial abuse and hatred though, you can't simply ignore. If half our team was BAME and they are under-performing because of this, it puts our team at an advantage.

[Saint_clark]

100 people making monkey noises or throwing bananas on the pitch is racism. 1 person doing the same is racism. Racism is not acceptable and is not more acceptable if fewer people are being racists. What the Bulgarians did last not was not defensible. Draping the cross of St George across your shoulders and trashing foreign bars and cafes is also not defensible. A black lady just called TalkSport and spoke about how bad racism still is here. The focus is currently on the Bulgarians but we need to understand that we have the same element of moronic nationalists in our country who also need dealing with. 100 or 1, they have to understand that their behaviour is not acceptable. By saying that you will always have that element in society makes it acceptable. Anyone who thinks it is ok to discriminate on the grounds of race, creed or religion needs to be called on their behaviour. They need to understand that they are the problem rather than the people they are directing their hatred to.

 

100 people having swine flu is an outbreak. 1 person is an isolated incident.

No-ones saying that having that 1 racist person is acceptable, but when it comes to punishment you just punish that person - when it's a much larger percentage, it requires more widespread action.

[sadoldgit]

Which is my point, it still isn’t acceptable even if it is only 1 person.

[Saint_clark]

Which is my point, it still isn’t acceptable even if it is only 1 person.

 

Agreed, but it's also not comparable in terms of it's implications for the wider population.

[hypochondriac]

Which is my point, it still isn’t acceptable even if it is only 1 person.

Who said it was acceptable? No one. But it's not the exact same thing which appears to be obvious to everyone except you

[sadoldgit]

Apparently the Bulgarian police have made 4 arrests. It’s a start but I wonder if this is just being done to placate us. It will be interesting to see how many more are arrested.

[sadoldgit]

Who said it was acceptable? No one. But it's not the exact same thing which appears to be obvious to everyone except you

 

God you are hard work. Just like Batman you either miss the point deliberately or you are not paying attention. Racism is racism whether it is 1 person, 100 people or 1000 people doing it. Not a hard concept to get your head around surely. If you had bothered to read my point about what happened in the second half perhaps you will understand what I am saying.

[hypochondriac]

God you are hard work. Just like Batman you either miss the point deliberately or you are not paying attention. Racism is racism whether it is 1 person, 100 people or 1000 people doing it. Not a hard concept to get your head around surely. If you had bothered to read my point about what happened in the second half perhaps you will understand what I am saying.

No one understands what you are saying. If a prisoner assaults someone in a jail is that a smaller or larger problem than a full scale riot breaking out? They are both violence but quite clearly one of them is more serious and requires a different sort of response. How are you finding this difficult to grasp? It's like talking to a child sometimes.

[Turkish]

Whatever happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me?

[rallyboy]

[sadoldgit]

No one understands what you are saying. If a prisoner assaults someone in a jail is that a smaller or larger problem than a full scale riot breaking out? They are both violence but quite clearly one of them is more serious and requires a different sort of response. How are you finding this difficult to grasp? It's like talking to a child sometimes.

 

Are you serious? Where have I said that the scale doesn’t have an effect? I have simply stated that you have to deal with the problem of racism if it is being perpetrated by a few people or a lot of people. There is no tipping point where you either let it go or you deal with it. It really isn’t that hard a concept to get your head around. I seem to recall you saying not that long ago that there wasn’t a big problem with racism in football in this country. It would appear that the England manager and black players don’t agree with you.

 

I also find it ironic that I am discussing racism with someone who thinks it is ok to use an alt right avatar.

[sadoldgit]

For the hard of thinking...

 

The game was stopped twice in the first half and an announcement made over the tannoy that the match could be abandoned if the abuse continued. A number of the perpetrators left the stadium but the abuse continued, albeit by fewer people in the second half. What was unacceptable in the first half became acceptable (in as much as the match was not abandoned despite racist abuse) in the second half. We know now that the team took the decision to play on in the second half despite the continued abuse, but isn’t it wimping out when having threatened to abandon the match unless the abuse stops, the match continues and so does the abuse? Fewer people were hurling abuse, but it still continued despite the threat.

[hypochondriac]

Are you serious? Where have I said that the scale doesn’t have an effect? I have simply stated that you have to deal with the problem of racism if it is being perpetrated by a few people or a lot of people. There is no tipping point where you either let it go or you deal with it. It really isn’t that hard a concept to get your head around. I seem to recall you saying not that long ago that there wasn’t a big problem with racism in football in this country. It would appear that the England manager and black players don’t agree with you.

 

I also find it ironic that I am discussing racism with someone who thinks it is ok to use an alt right avatar.

He's still going on! Trying to pretend there is a big problem with racism in English football. There isn't, there's been giant improvements since the 80s, most incidents are confined to small pockets or loners and they are swiftly dealt with by way of hefty bans. It's no longer socially acceptable to throw bananas or make monkey noises at black players and thank goodness for that. You seem to be the only one harping on about this giant racism problem within English football. Like the sexism and homophobia you see everywhere its in your head mate like usual.

 

I'm pretty sure this has been said by many many posters on here now and I'm not sure why you fail to understand it.

[sadoldgit]

So the 4 Bulgarian racists that were arrested have been fined just over £400 and banned from attending sporting events for 2 years. That’ll show ‘em!

[whelk]

So the 4 Bulgarian racists that were arrested have been fined just over £400 and banned from attending sporting events for 2 years. That’ll show ‘em!

 

Were you hoping for jail time?

[sadoldgit]

Were you hoping for jail time?

 

I was hoping for more than a slap on the wrist. This hardly sends the message that their behaviour is unacceptable does it?

[hypochondriac]

I was hoping for more than a slap on the wrist. This hardly sends the message that their behaviour is unacceptable does it?

What punishment do you feel would have been acceptable?

[rallyboy]

A couple of days on here debating something?

[sadoldgit]

A couple of days on here debating something?

 

That’s taking it too far surely?